₦airaland Forum

Wilgrea7:
which apostles? and using the Jews as a basis of judgement is wrong... the jews reject the new testament.. does that make it wrong?... books are accepted and rejected for different reasons.. the book of Enoch was once accepted.. the revelation of john was once rejected.. it depends on the council

Can you tell me which apostle or prophet that was used in penning the Scriptures that was not Jew?

PrecisionFx:
Hmmmmm, bros ehhh, like say u even dey there follow dem write Bible + the Apocrypha join

Do I have to be there to know the truth?

MrPresident1:
Dem don smoke copy-paste OLAADEGBU for this thread

I wonder what type of weed the guy smokes.

Dhugal:
He ran from his own thread

It was Tacitus that said "he that fights and runs away lives to fight another day."

OLAADEGBU:
Can you tell me which apostle or prophet that was used in penning the Scriptures that was not Jew?

I'm sorry.. but this does not relate to my comment.. thank you

MrPresident1:
The Apocryphal books are heavy, dense, condensed, and concentrated.

Fear God, and you don't have to fear anything, much less satan.

As the guy that got high has revealed.

ysyowel:
Jesus quoted from Torah (Gen, Exo, Lev, Num & Deut) he quoted from Genesis when he said "before Abraham was I AM" He quoted from Psalms and the Prophets but NOT from any of the books of Apocrypha

Good job.

Raphael81:
Oga answer and stop begging the question

What question are you going on about?

Wilgrea7:
I'm sorry.. but this does not relate to my comment.. thank you

Maybe you don't understand what you wrote. Now tell us why you think the Jews could not be used as a basis of judgment on this matter?

OLAADEGBU:
Catholics and Protestants disagree regarding the exact number of books that belong in the Old Testament Scriptures. The dispute between them is over seven books, part of what is known as the Apocrypha: 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon), Baruch, Tobit, Judith, and additions to Daniel and Esther.1 However, there are a number of reasons why the Old Testament Apocrypha should not be part of the Canon or standard writings of Scripture. - Ryan Turner

Why would anyone include the Apocrypha into the Bible?

OLAADEGBU:
What question are you going on about?

Shut up

OLAADEGBU:
Maybe you don't understand what you wrote. Now tell us why you think the Jews could not be used as a basis of judgment on this matter?

do the Jews generally accept the new testament? even jews today.. we are talking of majority here.. its like saying because some igbos claim Jewish ancestry then all Igbos have jewish ancestry and then all Nigerians too.. Judaism had it's sect... Christianity started as a sect of Judaism.. we had the essenes.. pharisees.. Sadducees.. zionosts etc.
Christianity started as a sect.. so for the fact that a group accepts it.. doesn't mean its wrong or right.. there are certain principles wrong to some.. right to others.. the writers of the apocrypha.. were they gentiles? even if.. do the jews have the monopoly of anything?.. the same basis for the acceptance of your new testament to the rabbinical jews is the same basis for the acceptance of the apocrypha to you.. the same way the apocrypha is wrong to you.. your new testament is wrong to the rabbinical jews.. in summary.. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE MONOPOLY OF ANYTHING.. just as you can use written letters to disqualify someone.. someone can use written letters to disqualify you

Raphael81:
Shut up

I didn't even open my mouth.

Wilgrea7:
do the Jews generally accept the new testament? even jews today.. we are talking of majority here.. its like saying because some igbos claim Jewish ancestry then all Igbos have jewish ancestry and then all Nigerians too.. Judaism had it's sect... Christianity started as a sect of Judaism.. we had the essenes.. pharisees.. Sadducees.. zionosts etc.
Christianity started as a sect.. so for the fact that a group accepts it.. doesn't mean its wrong or right.. there are certain principles wrong to some.. right to others.. the writers of the apocrypha.. were they gentiles? even if.. do the jews have the monopoly of anything?.. the same basis for the acceptance of your new testament to the rabbinical jews is the same basis for the acceptance of the apocrypha to you.. the same way the apocrypha is wrong to you.. your new testament is wrong to the rabbinical jews.. in summary.. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE MONOPOLY OF ANYTHING.. just as you can use written letters to disqualify someone.. someone can use written letters to disqualify you

We are talking of the apocrypha here and my position is that neither Jesus nor his apostles quoted from it. Jesus and his disciples were all from Galilee except for Judas Iscariot. Christianity started with the Israelites in Israel and it would be preposterous to assume that the Jews did not accept the gospel, yes not all accept it but as many as received Him were given the power to become the sons of God (John 1:12).

OLAADEGBU:
We are talking of the apocrypha here and my position is that neither Jesus nor his apostles quoted from it. Jesus and his disciples were all from Galilee except for Judas Iscariot. Christianity started with the Israelites in Israel and it would be preposterous to assume that the Jews did not accept the gospel, yes not all accept it but as many as received Him were given the power to become the sons of God (John 1:12).

do you know when the Jews finalised their canon?

Ubenedictus:
do you know when the Jews finalised their canon?

The Jews in the OT didn't have to wait for the Vatican to finalise the canon. They recognised the God breathed Word as soon it was written or spoken and kept it in the Ark of Covenant. Likewise, the early Christians recognised the God breathed Word of God and could differentiate it from the apocrypha.

OLAADEGBU:
The Jews in the OT didn't have to wait for the Vatican to finalise the canon. They recognised the God breathed Word as soon it was written or spoken and kept it in the Ark of Covenant. Likewise, the early Christians recognised the God breathed Word of God and could differentiate it from the apocrypha.

the writings in the ARK was the Law not even the entire scriptures. So i ask you again do you know when the Jews finalised their Canon? Please answer with a reputable source.


2.

Are you aware that at the time of Jesus different Jews had different books as scriptures? Are you aware the Sadducees only had 5 books in their bible? Are you aware the pharisees had more books than them? The essene Jews had more books than the pharisees.


So do you know when the jewish canon was finalised? Remember to add a reputable source.

Ubenedictus:
the writings in the ARK was the Law not even the entire scriptures. So i ask you again do you know when the Jews finalised their Canon? Please answer with a reputable source.

"And He said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me" (Luke 24:44).

By the time of Jesus' ministry on earth the OT canon was already completed.

Ubenedictus:
2.

Are you aware that at the time of Jesus different Jews had different books as scriptures? Are you aware the Sadducees only had 5 books in their bible? Are you aware the pharisees had more books than them? The essene Jews had more books than the pharisees.

The Jews may have different books which were not many but they only had only one Scripture which was the Torah. The apocrypha did not count as Scripture.

Ubenedictus:
So do you know when the jewish canon was finalised? Remember to add a reputable source.

The last OT Scripture was the book of Malachi and after that God did not speak to them for the next 400 years of silence, which was called the dark Ages. That was the time books such as the apocrypha, which the Vatican erroneously calls scripture, was written.

OLAADEGBU:
Can you tell me which apostle or prophet that was used in penning the Scriptures that was not Jew?

LUKE

OLAADEGBU:
"And He said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me" (Luke 24:44).

By the time of Jesus' ministry on earth the OT canon was already completed.



The Jews may have different books which were not many but they only had only one Scripture which was the Torah. The apocrypha did not count as Scripture.



The last OT Scripture was the book of Malachi and after that God did not speak to them for the next 400 years of silence, which was called the dark Ages. That was the time books such as the apocrypha, which the Vatican erroneously calls scripture, was written.

Songs of Solomon is neither law nor prophet yet you accept it...

Judges is neither law nor prophets yet you accept it...

THE BIBLE CONTAINS MORE THAN THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS...

The Historical books are there... the wisdom books are there even... So that Law and prophets argument falls flat...

I JUST KNEW YOU WOULD SPEW ANTI CATHOLICISM IN THIS... BUT MIND YOU... NOT ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ACCEPTS THE DEUTEROCANONICAL... OTHER CHRISTIAN SECT DID AND THE BIBLE HAD 73 BOOKS BEFORE MARTIN LUTHER REMOVED 6 BOOKS.. AND P.S THE ORIGINAL KING JAMES VERSION HAD THE 73 BOOKS....

If scriptures are considered inspired based on the fact that Jesus or his apostle quoted from them then not all old testament scripture are inspired or are part of scripture then unless you can show me direct quotes from the following old testament scriptures

Judges, 1 Chronicles, Nahum, Zephaniah,
Obadiah, Esther, Ruth, Ezra, Nehemiah,
Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, and the Song of Songs....

easymancfc:
LUKE

That may be correct, even though he was a close companion of Apostle Paul who met with Christ.

easymancfc:
Songs of Solomon is neither law nor prophet yet you accept it...

Judges is neither law nor prophets yet you accept it...

THE BIBLE CONTAINS MORE THAN THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS...

The Historical books are there... the wisdom books are there even... So that Law and prophets argument falls flat...

This is what Jesus would have said to you:

"Jesus answered and said to them, You do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God" (Matthew 22:29).

When Jesus said the Law and the prophets you should know what that means. Let me break it down for you. The Jewish Pentateuch consist of what we Christians would call the first 5 books of Moses which is they also call the "five rolls," I hope you know what they are.

The Prophets consisted of the Former Prophets and the Latter Prophets. The Former Prophets consisted of the books of Joshua, Judges, 1st and 2nd Samuel and Kings respectively. The Latter Prophets are Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentation and the 12 smaller prophetic books. The Writings contain the remaining books.

easymancfc:
I JUST KNEW YOU WOULD SPEW ANTI CATHOLICISM IN THIS... BUT MIND YOU... NOT ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ACCEPTS THE DEUTEROCANONICAL... OTHER CHRISTIAN SECT DID AND THE BIBLE HAD 73 BOOKS BEFORE MARTIN LUTHER REMOVED 6 BOOKS.. AND P.S THE ORIGINAL KING JAMES VERSION HAD THE 73 BOOKS....

Where the error of the ungodly lies is in their ignorance of the Holy Scriptures as Jesus said in the verse I quoted above, which is due to a darkened understanding of the power of God.

[quote author=OLAADEGBU post=59378406]This is what Jesus would have said to you:

"Jesus answered and said to them, You do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God" (Matthew 22:29).

When Jesus said the Law and the prophets you should know what that means. Let me break it down for you. The Jewish Pentateuch consist of what we Christians would call the first 5 books of Moses which is they also call the "five rolls," I hope you know what they are.

The Prophets consisted of the Former Prophets and the Latter Prophets. The Former Prophets consisted of the books of Joshua, Judges, 1st and 2nd Samuel and Kings respectively. The Latter Prophets are Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentation and the 12 smaller prophetic books. The Writings contain the remaining books.



Where the error of the ungodly lies is in their ignorance of the Holy Scriptures as Jesus said in the verse I quoted above, which is due to a darkened understanding of the power of God. [/quote
Clap for yourself... So you pick Judges and ran away with it...

What happened to Songs of Solomon, It is still neither Law nor prophet.. by your own definition The Law and the Prophets is the all and end all of old testament cannon.. if I am to go by that then the "writing" as you said would not be there since Jesus didn't mention it in that verse...

easymancfc:
If scriptures are considered inspired based on the fact that Jesus or his apostle quoted from them then not all old testament scripture are inspired or are part of scripture then unless you can show me direct quotes from the following old testament scriptures

Judges, 1 Chronicles, Nahum, Zephaniah,
Obadiah, Esther, Ruth, Ezra, Nehemiah,
Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, and the Song of Songs....

easymancfc:
Clap for yourself... So you pick Judges and ran away with it...

What happened to Songs of Solomon, It is still neither Law nor prophet.. by your own definition The Law and the Prophets is the all and end all of old testament cannon.. if I am to go by that then the "writing" as you said would not be there since Jesus didn't mention it in that verse...

Calm down! I'll give you only one verse that will answer all your questions, and that comes from the mouth of our Lord Jesus Christ:

"From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say to you, It shall be required of this generation" (Luke 11:51).

Here the Lord Jesus started from the first martyr in the book of Genesis to the last Martyr in the last book of the OT. Jesus scanned through all the books in the OT and that did not include the apocrypha even though it had been written by this time.

OLAADEGBU:
Calm down! I'll give you only one verse that will answer all your questions, and that comes from the mouth of our Lord Jesus Christ:

"From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say to you, It shall be required of this generation" (Luke 11:51).

Here the Lord Jesus started from the first martyr in the book of Genesis to the last Martyr in the last book of the OT. Jesus scanned through all the books in the OT and that did not include the apocrypha even though it had been written by this time.

Irrevelant to the argument for so many reasons..
1. that is not a quote from Jesus in reference to any old testament scriptures...

2. The Apocryphal books don't mention any new prophet that was not recorded in the old testament...

3. The context of Luke 11:51 doesn't make reference to Any passage in Particular... Jesus was merely making a statement on how Israel has killed prophets sent to them....

So either you provide a direct quote or you don't have a point...

and P.S THERE ARE QUOTES FROM JESUS AND THE APOSTLES THAT ARE VERBATUM QUOTES OR VERY SIMILAR WRITINGS FROM THE APOCRYPHA..

easymancfc:
Irrevelant to the argument for so many reasons..
1. that is not a quote from Jesus in reference to any old testament scriptures...

2. The Apocryphal books don't mention any new prophet that was not recorded in the old testament...

3. The context of Luke 11:51 doesn't make reference to Any passage in Particular... Jesus was merely making a statement on how Israel has killed prophets sent to them....

So either you provide a direct quote or you don't have a point...

The more reason you should read the link at the OP. Nevertheless, here is an excerpt that covers your objections:

2. Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture by referring to the entire accepted Jewish Canon of Scripture, "From the blood of Abel [Gen. 4:8] to the blood of Zechariah [2 Chron. 24:20], who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation (Lk. 11:51; cf. Mt. 23:35)."

Abel was the first martyr in the Old Testament from the book of Genesis while Zechariah was the last martyr in the book of Chronicles. In the Hebrew Canon, the first book was Genesis and the last book was Chronicles. They contained all of the same books as the standard 39 books accepted by Protestants today, but they were just arranged differently. For example, all of the 12 minor prophets (Hosea through Malachi) were contained in one book. This is why there are only 24 books in the Hebrew Bible today. By Jesus' referring to Abel and Zachariah, He was canvassing the entire Canon of the Hebrew Scriptures which included the same 39 books as Protestants accept today. Therefore, Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture.

easymancfc:
and P.S THERE ARE QUOTES FROM JESUS AND THE APOSTLES THAT ARE VERBATUM QUOTES OR VERY SIMILAR WRITINGS FROM THE APOCRYPHA..

You are welcome to quote those verses here if you have them.

OLAADEGBU:
The more reason you should read the link at the OP. Nevertheless, here is an excerpt that covers your objections:





You are welcome to quote those verses here if you have them.

With all due respect... You and the O.P. don't know what explicitly means...

Like I said earlier... Jesus was referring in the context of Luke 11:51 about Killing of prophets and the deuterocanons don't mention new prophets...

easymancfc:
With all due respect... You and the O.P. don't know what explicitly means...

Like I said earlier... Jesus was referring in the context of Luke 11:51 about Killing of prophets and the deuterocanons don't mention new prophets...

It's either you provide the so called verses where either Jesus or His apostles quoted from the apocrypha or you hold your peace.

OLAADEGBU:
It's either you provide the so called verses where either Jesus or His apostles quoted from the apocrypha or you hold your peace.

Before we get to that... Just to pick your brain a little.. From which of the Old testament book did Jude quote this from....

Jude 1:9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

easymancfc:
Before we get to that... Just to pick your brain a little.. From which of the Old testament book did Jude quote this from....

Jude 1:9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

There's no point asking questions that has been addressed in the OP's link. Here is another excerpt that answers your question:

Rejection by Jesus and the Apostles
1. There are no clear, definite New Testament quotations from the Apocrypha by Jesus or the apostles. While there may be various allusions by the New Testament to the Apocrypha, there are no authoritative statements like "thus says the Lord," "as it is written," or "the Scriptures say." There are references in the New Testament to the pseudepigrapha (literally “false writings”) (Jude 14-15) and even citations from pagan sources (Acts 17:22-34), but none of these are cited as Scripture and are rejected even by Roman Catholics. In contrast, the New Testament writers cite the Old Testament numerous times (Mt. 5; Lk. 24:27; Jn. 10:35) and use phrases such as "thus says the Lord," "as it is written," or "the Scriptures say," indicating their approval of these books as inspired by God.

OLAADEGBU:
There's no point asking questions that has been addressed in the OP's link. Here is another excerpt that answers your question:

1.If they are "false writings" then why are they quoted or alluded to at all by the apostles of Jesus if they were not considered to be true.... and why would they be recorded in scripture as fact if they were not true since the bible contains truths only....

2. If the only thing that qualifies a statement as authoritative then Jesus not saying "thus says the Lord" or "scriptures says" would mean Jesus' statement in places involving Old testament characters would also not be authoritative quotes...