First, you do not have to prove to me that there is some guy in New York who you write to when you want something. To be honest, I wouldn't have reason to doubt you get what you get from the guy by writing letters unless you give me reason to doubt you, say for instance, if you are known to bend the truth often! So why bother proving it to me in the first place?

If I already get all the things you get without writing letters, then from my perspective, letter writing is not what gives me those things, so why should I even consider becoming a letter writer to some guy in New York? Am I greedy perhaps? I want twice as much? I'm tired of whatever it is I do that gives me those things I get? I came crying to you for help perhaps?

As to the bolded "you guys" below, you would not be asking me to become a letter writer if you accepted I get all you get by not writing letters!

And just in case you want to claim all this story about some guy in New York you write letters to and get what you want was not to convince me to become a letter writer because only letter writing to guys in New York would give me what I want, I have coloured in for you to see that you are inferring only letter writing works, and trying to convince me to write letters, and completely disregarding that I get all you get without writing letters to some guy in New York!

P.s. My tone sounds harsh! I do not mean anything untowards by it. You have not in reality tried to personally convince me of anything.

awesomeJ:


I keep getting this line from you guys though. Why do you often. infer that what I said is only letter writing works. I didn't say that, what I said was letter writing works. I never spelt any exclusiveness to its effectiveness. As a matter of fact, in the analogy I gave, I talked about those who got their good grades via other means than letter writing.

So getting you to write letters wouldn't be the point. The point would be that I have an undeniable proof that there's exists someone in New York who reads my letters.

Getting the fact of His existence established is first, thereafter, I may tell you all He's got to offer, and if they make enough sense to you, you may accept Him. If on the other hand, you're convinced you'd be better off without Him, it'd still be alright. But this time around, your rejection of Him wouldn't mean he doesn't exist, that fact would have been what we already established.

You know one thing I notice with you atheist folks is that you'll are prideful. Just cos of some little education, and maybe some little cash too, you think in your ignorance that you're smarter and more enlightened than every one else.

I am sure that if I was in a class with you guys, I'd be a much better student than 80% of you. yet you think I'm dumb. I know a friend-not so close though, got his Ph.D in computer engineering at about 28, full scholarship for M.Sc and Ph.D in Italy. prior to his masters, aced several top notch job tests and interviews. He attends deeper life, yet you think it's dumbness that makes him a Christian.

I know another guy, one of the first Andela fellows, he's a Christian. Andela's success rate is under 1%. Yet you guys think he's really dumb.

The man who taught me control systems in engineering school, is the smartest teacher, tutor, or lecturer I've ever met in my entire life. He's a pastor, yet in your mind, you're more enlightened than him.


The fact is there are countless number of people all over the world the soles of whose feet guys like you would be unworthy to tie when it comes to intellect. Yet you bask in your ignorance, thinking they are fools for acknowledging the obvious, you guys have chosen to be blinded to.

You see, this evidence you guys keep asking for are not nonexistent as you suppose, as a matter of facts, each passing day is loaded with millions of it.

For each time someone takes a principle from the Bible and rightly applies it, and gets results, WHAT EVIDENCE COULD BE MORE?

budaatum:
First, you do not have to prove to me that there is some guy in New York who you write to when you want something. To be honest, I wouldn't have reason to doubt you get what you get from the guy by writing letters unless you give me reason to doubt you, say for instance, if you are known to bend the truth often! So why bother proving it to me in the first place?

If I already get all the things you get without writing letters, then from my perspective, letter writing is not what gives me those things, so why should I even consider becoming a letter writer to some guy in New York? Am I greedy perhaps? I want twice as much? I'm tired of whatever it is I do that gives me those things I get? I came crying to you for help perhaps?

As to the bolded "you guys" below, you would not be asking me to become a letter writer if you accepted I get all you get by not writing letters!

And just in case you want to claim all this story about some guy in New York you write letters to and get what you want was not to convince me to become a letter writer because only letter writing to guys in New York would give me what I want, I have coloured in for you to see that you are inferring only letter writing works, and trying to convince me to write letters, and completely disregarding that I get all you get without writing letters to some guy in New York!

P.s. My tone sounds harsh! I do not mean anything untowards by it. You have not in reality tried to personally convince me of anything.

You don't really think this your long post follows with the scope of my comments do you?

Let me help you.

I gave an instance to demonstrate to Seun, that we as Christians have proof for our faith:

1. I write a letter to someone asking for something.
Something that couldn't just happen to just anyone.

2. The thing gets done specifically as I request.

3. I conclude that the thing happened for me solely due to the letter since I know I never sought any other means. I however acknowledge that it happened to other people through other means.

4. Then I concluded that there surely is a person who gets my letters.

And That's a solid proof I have for that person's existence.

5. You said you agreed with the analogy.

6. Then you added an unnecessary part saying I claimed only letter writing works and that I wanted you to start writing letters.
THAT DOESN'T FOLLOW BRO.

awesomeJ:
You know one thing I notice with you atheist folks is that you'll are prideful. Just cos of some little education, and maybe some little cash too, you think in your ignorance that you're smarter and more enlightened than every one else.

I am sure that if I was in a class with you guys, I'd be a much better student than 80% of you. yet you think I'm dumb. I know a friend-not so close though, got his Ph.D in computer engineering at about 28, full scholarship for M.Sc and Ph.D in Italy. prior to his masters, aced several top notch job tests and interviews. He attends deeper life, yet you think it's dumbness that makes him a Christian.

I know another guy, one of the first Andela fellows, he's a Christian. Andela's success rate is under 1%. Yet you guys think he's really dumb.

The man who taught me control systems in engineering school, is the smartest teacher, tutor, or lecturer I've ever met in my entire life. He's a pastor, yet in your mind, you're more enlightened than him.

Where exactly did any atheist on this thread call believers in imaginary friends dumb just because they believe in imaginary friends?

The fact is there are countless number of people all over the world the soles of whose feet guys like you would be unworthy to tie when it comes to intellect. Yet you bask in your ignorance, thinking they are fools for acknowledging the obvious, you guys have chosen to be blinded to.

Again, who exactly said any of these things here? you seem to be pulling a strawman here, a highly dishonest one at that

you're also making a very mistake. Someone achieving something big in a scientific or intellectual field doesn't mean he/she can't believe dumb bullsheet things too

Newton, while well known for his scientific theories and achievements, actually spent MUCH MORE of his time on the study of the Bible than he did science
He devoted time to searching the bible for hidden codes trying to know the exact measurement of the temple of Solomon with which he claimed he'll be able to accurately predict the date of apocalypse

He also devoted time to Alchemy searching for the philosopher's stone so he can make all the gold he wanted and achieve immortality

Alfred Russel Wallace, who was a good biologist and one of the first people to take evolution seriously, actually spent more of his time believing he's talking to ghosts

Nikola Tesla, regarded to be one of the best inventors ever, was actually adamant that he's receiving radio signals from Mars

see? being intelligent doesn't mean you can't fall for dumb bullsheet too

You see, this evidence you guys keep asking for are not nonexistent as you suppose, as a matter of facts, each passing day is loaded with millions of it.

and you my good sir haven't said what those evidence are

For each time someone takes a principle from the Bible and rightly applies it, and gets results, WHAT EVIDENCE COULD BE MORE?

Tell me more..... I'm interested but you'll lose my interest fast if I see illogical bullsheet

Now Pastor Keith,
He read in the Bible the portion that says if you asked for anything and believed you received it, you'd get it.

At the time, he and his wife were broke, finding it difficult to even feed.

So he agreed with his wife to believe God for a car. They decided they'd believe God for a new car. He wanted a new Buick "Reveero".

So they had heard someone taught about setting timelines to prayer requests. so they decided to give God 30 days. They figured 30 days'd be long at enough for God to get them the car, He's a big God.

So 5 days passed nothing happened, 10 days, 20 days, down to the 30th day, nothing happened.

Then on the 30th day, they would jump as every telephone call, if someone told any of them he wanted to see them, they'd enthusiastically ask " what about" still by 8pm that day, there was no car. So they kept watching the clock, 9pm, 10pm, 11:45pm, nothing, they figured "day isn't over" then came 12:00am, nothing 12:30, and finally they just went to bed without talking about it.

Then the next morning they discussed it, and pastor was like "I still don't see where we got it wrong" but they never concluded that God didn't exist or that he failed them.

Then several months later, Pastor Keith was at this faith conference, and after some of the teachings, he figured "these things are still not different from what we applied regarding the car, I guess maybe there's just more to being I faith than I can grasp"

So while he meditated, God told him. "You were in faith", then he was like " what?, I was in faith?, then why didn't it work?"

Then God added " you were in faith,.....till 12:30, just cause of some moving tickers the wall, you decided my word wasn't true?'

Then pastor Keith started beating himself saying "men, you mean I could have been driving a new car for a year?, come on Keith, nobody told you to do that 30-day deal, you can't find any scriptures on 30 days..."

Then when he got back home, he discussed with his wife, and they decided to do it again, this time, no 30-day clause.

So 6 months passed, and 1 year passed, 2 years passed, 3 years passed, 4 and a half years passed.

Then one day someone called and told them the LORD dealt with him to buy them a new car, any one they chose.

so getting to the dealership, there was the particular Buick he had always wanted, but it was already sold. pained, he told the salesman, $if something doesn't work out with the buyer, call me"

Next morning, the salesman called "something didn't work out"
So pastor Keith went over there, and eventually went home with his Brand new Buick "Reveero" fully paid for.

do you guys think such a man could even for one moment doubt the existence of God? This experience and several others he's had surely constitute super strong proofs for him and anyone else who's objective enough.

Seun:

You're right. When an atheist says "there is no X", where X could be God, Satan, or Angel Gabriel, it's shorthand for "there is probably no X" or "there is no credible evidence that X exists". Some versions of God definitely don't exist, e.g. the all-loving, all-powerful God who allows children to be abducted, tortured, abused and brutally murdered, allows babies to have cancer, and will punish most people infinitely for finite crimes.

God did not allowed all those things you are accusing Him of, humans did. Jesus said whatever you allow/permit will be allowed/permitted in heaven.

Humans has forgotten that they are creatures of freewill. What a tragedy!

How about pastor Kenneth,
At 16, he was bedfast, terribly ill, he was to die of cancer, The finest doctors already gave up on him, and even his own pastors when they came around were like "hold it together son, in a few days, it will all be over"
So everyone was basically counting the days till his death.
But he didn't want to die, still being very young.
At any time, he found the strength, he would open to the Bible to read, and so a time came when he opened to Mark 11:24, where it's written that if you ask anything, believe you received it and you shall have it.

Then he prayed for a whole body, and at that instant believed that he was already healed. Then he checked to know what the time was. It was 10 in the morning. So he thought to himself "well people ought to be up this time of the morning". so he made the effort and stood to his feet, and instantly, there was a feeling like a thousand needles were piercing his feet, and eventually he was wholly restored to health, and went on to live for over 60 years.
This magnificent normhealing happened instantly. It's not fiction, and it isn't a biblical record. It's a 20th century occurrence. If you're in doubt, make efforts to find out details about Kenneth Hagin's teenage cancer, and how he got healed. You may even get to see the doctors' reports.


These are amazing things people are experiencing of God, and you guys are there basking in your ignorance that he doesn't exist. You're on your own.

budaatum:

And again, I agree, though.......



Do you mean.....

I'm not changing my definition of my atheism. I see no Bugatti where you point to saying there's your Bugatti, so why would I not be emphatic in my assertion that you haven't got a Bugatti, at least not where you are pointing?

However, I'm now changing my mind, and I don't even agree any more that I am "an atheist where Invisible Bugattis are concerned". What I think now is that you have to be nuts if you are pointing to an invisible space and claiming that's your Bugatti! Either that, or a Bugatti to you means, 'empty space'. That, by the way, was why one of the first responses on this thread was:


I hope you don't mind please, dalaman.

if I keep pointing to thin air claiming I have a Bugatti, it means I don't have a Bugatti. you can now assert that I have no Bugatti by virtue of which you are no longer atheistic since you believe or better still you know I don't have a Bugatti.

The same pastor Kenneth was initially dull as a student, would make D's and Fs. Then he read in the Bible how God made Daniel, and his folks 10 times better than all the other students in Babylon at the time.

So he asked God for a better mind performance, and then he started making straight As.
Good thing is the US keeps good records, so you can go to verify.

Before he died, he could quote 2 thirds of the new testament verbatim.

Christianity is way deeper than the idea you guys are having of it o. Like I often say if you've ever met a real Christian, you couldn't buy him out of his faith with even a trillion dollars.

hopefulLandlord:




3. I don't demand to see any imaginary friend, I know your imaginary friend does not exist! I've always asserted this. if a god exists that created me and wants me to know him I will know him/her/it without any fellow human telling me about him/her/it.

this is what I have been driving at.

you 'know' god doesn't exist meaning you have a belief or a stance on god.

you do not lack a belief in existence of god, you believe that god does not exist.

Gggg102:


this is what I have been driving at.

you 'know' god doesn't exist meaning you have a belief or a stance on god.

you do not lack a belief in existence of god, you believe that god does not exist.

I know all religious creator gods that wants me to know him/her/it/them do not exist! no belief is needed at all. My position on all religious creator deities are positive

a creator deity outside religion however needs to be defined first but shouldn't be defined or argued into existence

awesomeJ, don't take this the wrong way but can you just move all these nonsense anecdotes back to the thread you opened for Seun? I thank you for your expected cooperation

DeSepiero:


If God wants an atheist to believe in God, God will provide evidence and convince the atheist.

If the theist wants an atheist to believe in God, the theist will provide evidence and convince the atheist.

His works is enough evidence for you and your likes as far as Elohim{ God } is concern. Just as Nairaland is enough evidence for me to know that Seun Osewa exist.

It will be foolish of me to say the owner of Nairaland does not exist after beholding his work.

hopefulLandlord:


I know all religious creator gods that wants me to know him/her/it/them do not exist! no belief is needed at all. My position on all religious creator deities are positive

a creator deity outside religion however needs to be defined first but shouldn't be defined or argued into existence

still the same

I'm not arguing whether god exist or not
I'm arguing that atheist do not only lack belief, they claim truth. they've asserted that god does not exist. so they have a 'belief'. they have a stance.

bloodofthelamb:


His works is enough evidence for you and your likes as far as Elohim{ God } is concern. Just as Nairaland is enough evidence for me to know that Seun Osewa exist.

It will be foolish of me to say the owner of Nairaland does not exist after beholding his work.

There was a thread on this and these atheists all came out in their numbers there to say how the works of seun prove his existence. I guess they did not know that we simply used reverse psychology on them and they simply said that if the works of seun could prove seuns existence then the works of God are enough to prove his existence just as you said here.

That thread was a brutal massacre to them and got locked.

You just hit the nail on the head bro.

Gggg102:


still the same

I'm not arguing whether god exist or not
I'm arguing that atheist do not only lack belief, they claim truth. they've asserted that god does not exist. so they have a 'belief'. they have a stance.

Very true. What they claim is a negative stance is actually a position of truth to them. So they POSITIVELY believe that God does not exist. It may be a rejection, but it's a positive rejection to them.

Gggg102:


still the same

I'm not arguing whether god exist or not
I'm arguing that atheist do not only lack belief, they claim truth. they've asserted that god does not exist. so they have a 'belief'. they have a stance.

I don't have belief about religious gods that want me to know it. I have KNOWLEDGE that they don't exist!

butterflyl1on:


Very true. What they claim is a negative stance is actually a position of truth to them. So they POSITIVELY believe that God does not exist. It may be a rejection, but it's a positive rejection to them.

yeah, thanks

butterflyl1on:


What you have is not a default position. It is a deliberate shift. There is a difference.

A default position is not a position you take knowingly it is an position you have no control over like an automatic switch you just revert to that. This is not what atheists do.

Atheists ON THEIR OWN and IN THEIR OWN MAKING, reject the assertion that there is God so this rejection means that they Assert that there is no God.

It's not a default position so stop with the word play. It's a choice they consciously made and despite making such an assertion that there is no God, why then do they or should they still seek evidence for him?

The atheist problem is 'pride', they don't know but they don't want to admit that they actually don't know, instead they dismiss what they don't know as being false.

hopefulLandlord:


I don't have belief about religious gods that want me to know it. I have KNOWLEDGE that they don't exist!

I believe the word 'belief' was used because both sides claim they have knowledge but both can't be true.
a Christian will also claim he knows.
the side that proves his belief will be the one with knowledge.

bloodofthelamb:


His works is enough evidence for you and your likes as far as Elohim{ God } is concern. Just as Nairaland is enough evidence for me to know that Seun Osewa exist.

It will be foolish of me to say the owner of Nairaland does not exist after beholding his work.

Which work was done by Elohim? How do I verify his signature? What if it was Lucifer? or Odin? or Zeus? or Krishna?
Nairaland alone is not enough to know that Seun Osewa exist.

hopefulLandlord:


I don't have belief about religious gods that want me to know it. I have KNOWLEDGE that they don't exist!

I believe the word 'belief' was used because both sides claim they have knowledge but both can't be true.
a Christian will also claim he knows.
the side that proves his belief will be the one with knowledge.

but still having knowledge means having a stand therefore you can't just say you don't believe in god, you don't doubt what you know

hopefulLandlord:


I don't have belief about religious gods that want me to know it.I have KNOWLEDGE that they don't exist!

FINALLY!!!

so you have knowledge that they do not exist.

Can you share this knowledge as your proof?

We are waiting.

Gggg102:




I believe the word 'belief' was used because both sides claim they have knowledge but both can't be true.
a Christian will also claim he knows.
the side that proves his belief will be the one with knowledge.

I'm liking this discussion now

Yes! I agree that those that claim a god that wants them to know him/her/it/them exists do so on knowledge (that's very charitable of me cuz rarely would you see such people making a knowledge claim about their flavour of imaginary friend but simply say they have "Faith"

However as far I'm concerned I see it as a god that wants "Them" to know him/her/it/them and doesn't want me to. the problem starts when those people start telling me their flavour of imaginary friend wants ME to know him/her/it/them

butterflyl1on:

FINALLY!!!
so you have knowledge that they do not exist.
Can you share this knowledge as your proof?
We are waiting.

by virtue of knowledge, he is no longer an atheist. he now believes(KNOWS) there is no god.

hopefulLandlord:
awesomeJ, don't take this the wrong way but can you just move all these nonsense anecdotes back to the thread you opened for Seun? I thank you for your expected cooperation

Didn't you ask for proof? What's your deal man?
Somebody say he has a rich friend, you ask him to prove it, then he shows you the $5m diamond ring the friend got him. You're saying that's not proof, then what is? and what's the explanation for how he got such an expensive ring.

The fact is you expect he wouldn't be able to produce anything, and now that he does, you're disappointed and are attempting to dismiss the proof, you won't until you can give him an explanation for the ring. He surely knows the only way he got it is from his friend, and if you think otherwise, it doesn't change that proof for him or any body else who's objective enough.

Emmanystone:

He did, He took up flesh and lived here for 33yrs. What elese do you want.

And, who are you to make such a demand of the Only Potentate?

What you call god wasn't powerful enough or smart enough to convince the world in 33 years yet you believe it created the world in 6 days.

Who am I that the only Potentate can't convince me?

butterflyl1on:





There was a thread on this and these atheists all came out in their numbers there to say how the works of seun prove his existence. I guess they did not know that we simply used reverse psychology on them and they simply said that if the works of seun could prove seuns existence then the works of God are enough to prove his existence just as you said here.

That thread was a brutal massacre to them and got locked.

You just hit the nail on the head bro.

Don't mind them. I can conscious choose to convince myself that Seun who caused Nairaland to be, do not exist for the sole reason that I am not seeing him with my optical eyes, even though I have seen his posts on this thread.

Will that not be me deluding myself?

hopefulLandlord:


I'm liking this discussion now

Yes! I agree that those that claim a god that wants them to know him/her/it/them exists do so on knowledge (that's very charitable of me cuz rarely would you see such people making a knowledge claim about their flavour of imaginary friend)

However as far I'm concerned I see it as a god that wants "Them" to know him/her/it/them and doesn't want me to. the problem starts when those people start telling me their flavour of imaginary friend wants ME to know him/her/it/them

from what I understand, your problem starts when people start getting religious.
that is a different issue on its own as it does not affect the god vs no god argument.
Yahweh, Allah, Moloch could be all fakes but that doesn't have an effect.
this is why Christians, Muslim's, deists... would come together to argue against atheists about god's existence.
after they sort that out, they can now argue among themselves which of their gods is real.

Gggg102:



by virtue of knowledge, he is no longer an atheist.
he now believes(KNOWS) there is no god.

Precisely so he should share this knowledge as his proof after the fact.

Gggg102:



from what I understand, your problem starts when people start getting religious.
that is a different issue on its own as it does not affect the god vs no god argument.
Yahweh, Allah, Moloch could be all fakes but that doesn't have an effect.
this is why Christians, Muslim's, deists... would come together to argue against atheists about god's existence.
after they sort that out, they can now argue among themselves which of their gods is real.

Well! that would make them argue for a deity devoid of claims and doctrines and that would mean you're gonna present a god that doesn't want me to know him/her it/them which is a god that doesn't want to be bothered

which in turn proves my position. you're in a catch-22 bro

hopefulLandlord:


Where exactly did any atheist on this thread call believers in imaginary friends dumb just because they believe in imaginary friends?


Again, who exactly said any of these things here? you seem to be pulling a strawman here, a highly dishonest one at that

you're also making a very mistake. Someone achieving something big in a scientific or intellectual field doesn't mean he/she can't believe dumb bullsheet things too

Newton, while well known for his scientific theories and achievements, actually spent MUCH MORE of his time on the study of the Bible than he did science
He devoted time to searching the bible for hidden codes trying to know the exact measurement of the temple of Solomon with which he claimed he'll be able to accurately predict the date of apocalypse

He also devoted time to Alchemy searching for the philosopher's stone so he can make all the gold he wanted and achieve immortality

Alfred Russel Wallace, who was a good biologist and one of the first people to take evolution seriously, actually spent more of his time believing he's talking to ghosts

Nikola Tesla, regarded to be one of the best inventors ever, was actually adamant that he's receiving radio signals from Mars

see? being intelligent doesn't mean you can't fall for dumb bullsheet too

and you my good sir haven't said what those evidence are

Tell me more..... I'm interested but you'll lose my interest fast if I see illogical bullsheet

Now you know Seun, and maybe have personal relationship with him. The basis for which you believe in his existence is defined to you. Right?

So if just cos I haven't met Seun, I start telling you that Seun really doesn't exist, he's only a product of your imagination, and you're in bondage thinking he exists.

Would that be anything short of me saying you're not intelligent enough to determine the realness of a relationship you have? When I keep insisting to you that contrary to your experience with Seun, my opinion on his non existence is what counts, wouldn't it be that I assume myself to be smart whereas I see you as so dumb as to still believe in Seun's existence?
That's it bro, that's why I see the insult you guys try to make to people's intellect.

Now the examples of smart people believing things you mentioned above don't have any correlation.

In the case of Tesla for instance, what experience did he have to prove the existence of those signals. Did he decode them via a radio receiver?

in our own case, I have given you some of the countless experience that we have of God's existence. Those are the proofs. You can't provide explanations to those experience, but you'd rather want to avoid them since they are undeniable to you.