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Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Nobody: 1:40pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:Roman catholic church was created by the pagan roman empire. The early church were scattered because of persecution. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 3:19pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
solite3:Yes, the present version of Roman Catholic Church was created by Roman Emperor Constantine after the Edict of Millan in 313 AD when he legalized and made it the state religion. However, before that the churches of God existed in Rome which as you said suffered much persecutions and scattered by the Roman authority. But since I'm not a historian, I can't talk about such with conviction as I would with the Bible. Hence, anyone who claims the present Roman Catholic Church is a continuation of the early churches in Rome, I can only challenge over that with the Word of God and not with history. I know very that the true early churches had the same as the apostles so any church that claims to be part of the early churches should have the same faith as the apostles. Now the faith of the apostles is written in the Bible, so the Bible has become the reservoir of truths to judge all doctrinal issues. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 9:21pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
solite3: the post wasn't addressed to you, it was addressed to someone who claimed the gospel was transmitted in the early church and that their understanding is a help in understanding scriptures. if you share that belief then you may respond to the questions, if not waka pass. which early church are you talking about, abi you think the early church ended with Titus, if it didn't then you can tell us its members. I'm still asking who told you the Catholic Church corrupted the Gospel, |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 10:46pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
live4dgospel:if this is true then why do the belief of the Church before Constantine and the belief of the Church after Constantine totally agree? Constantine stopped the persecution of Christians but he didn't make it a state religion, that happened long after. there is no historical proof that the Church scattered after Constantine, in fact that is untrue, the Church before Constantine stopped the persecution and the Church after Constantine stopped the persecution was same. the early Church did receive the faith of the apostles but you won't agree with them because you seem to interpret scriptures wrongly according to someone called Martin Luther. the faith of the apostles is in the Bible but not in the Bible alone, it is both in scriptures and committed to the early Church, unfortunately you will interpret it wrongly if you do not understand the sense in which it is taught.... the early Church presents us with the right context in which the Bible is to be understood. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 10:52pm On Feb 27, 2018 |
live4dgospel: lol, I happen to hate useless argument so I'll let you go, even though I hate a discussions where the other person refuses to answer questions. I'll address your earlier questions, I'll do better than that, I'll address your misconception, show you what the Church really teaches, show the scripture for it and the early Church interpretation of those scripture. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 12:23am On Feb 28, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:I am neither a Protestant nor a Pentecostal, in fact I have never read any book about the so-called Martin Luther neither do I believe in his doctrines or others like him. However, I know he was one of the key men of the Reformation and a supporter of the Doctrine of Justification to comfort themselves. This doctrine claims that even though we have sin in our hearts, just because we believe in Jesus, God would regard us as righteous. This is only a man-made doctrine. People have made and believed in such a doctrine to hide their sins, trying to live in the complacency of this doctrine. But because they are still revealed as sinners before the Law, their sins come to weigh down heavier and heavier on their minds. To be freed from all our sins, we have no other choice but to believe in the gospel that contains God’s righteousness, and this is the gospel of the water and the Spirit we are now preaching to the whole world. This is the only way to be delivered from all our sins. But that is by the way. Let me address the issue you raised, If the faith of the true early churches(i.e the churches that received the same faith of the apostles) before agree with the present Roman Catholic Church, it therefore implies that what Roman Catholic Church believes is the same as what is written in Bible about the faith of the apostles, right? Now since you said the faith of apostles is in the Bible. I ask you to forget about the scriptures committed to the early church, since I can't validate them. And don't tell me it presents us with right context in which the Bible is to be understood because you have already said its the same as that written in the Bible. So go ahead and answer the previous questions I raised which you have agreed to answer with reference to Bible. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 12:37am On Feb 28, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:Don't tell me about the so-called 'early church interpretation', this is ridiculous! The early church members that gave the interpretation, are they not the ones you were asking me to provide of which I told you I could not deal with because it can't be proved biblically? I mean how can I know if the members of the early church that gave the interpretation are not the ones that perverted the gospel or the true ones that continued in the teachings of the apostles, as we see in the case of Galatia (Galatians 1:1-10). Even though I'm not a historian I'm not ignorant! Maybe those early church members you are trying to give me their interpretations now were actually the runners that handed the baton to the present day Roman Catholic Church. So go ahead and answer the questions with the Bible alone. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 11:57am On Feb 28, 2018 |
live4dgospel: the first issue you raised is the Inquisition abi? funny enough the Inquisition was formed to prevent the senseless killing of Christians by secular courts on charges of heresy, 2ndly the inquisition was the most just medieval court system of its time and was prohibited by the Church from pronouncing death sentence. it is only people who are misinformed who go about shouting about the inquisition. maybe I'll explain. by 1200ad almost all of Europe had converted to Christianity, all the kings were Christian kings...in fact in 1200 if you went about shouting that Jesus is a mere prophet not God, you will immediately cause social unrest....I'll give you an example... about the 400s a bishop taught in his Church that there are two Jesus, one Jesus was a man the other was a God, the bishops name was Nestorius... there was immediate protest in the entire city and social unrest followed. to prevent such from happening the state criminalised heresy...it was a criminal offense to teach heresy... this was to prevent the civil unrest that usually happened, so if someone taught heresy he may be handed over to the state to be judged instead of protesting. some people started to abuse this an started to accuse innocent people of heresy, and many of the secular courts didn't know so much about heresy and could easily punish the innocent... the state too doesn't have the power to decide right doctrine....this is what gave rise to the inquisition. States requested that the Church provide learned men in theology who can truly tell if the doctrine in question is heretical, to prevent the innocent from been punished. the inquisition strictly was a group of learned men who examined a certain teaching and decided if it was heretical or not. it was movable... so if the inquisition comes to a town, it will declare some days of grace and any heretic in the town was allowed to report himself and go home free, if after the grace period someone was accused of heresy, the accused is told to provide a list of his enemies, your enemy cannot testify against you... if the accusation is by those in the list you provided then you go home free. if not you'll be asked to explain what you believe, if there is heresy in it you'll be asked to recant and go home... if you don't recant and they are convinced it is heresy, then you will be handed over to the state, then you will be tried and punished according to state laws. the inquisition never sentenced people that was the state courts. there is nothing in the inquisition about preventing people from finding the truth with your Bible. in fact reading the Bible was not a crime or an issue with the inquisition, the only thing that was frowned at was deliberately mistranslation of the Bible and distribution of mistranslated bibles, so 800 years ago the Jehovah witness Bible that says Jesus is a god, and those who deliberately mistranslated and distributed such bibles will be in trouble and such mistranslated bibles will be burnt. so that is the number 1 misconception... the inquisition never prevented people from reading the Bible nor did it kill people, its job is to determine if a particular teaching was heretical to prevent the state from punishing the innocent. who give the Church the right to determine heresy and truth? and judge matters? I guess you can answer that. as for the state who acted to prevent civil unrest well this is the passage they based their rights on ROM 14 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God’s command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval. For government is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God’s servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 12:06pm On Feb 28, 2018 |
live4dgospel:if you can't verify who the early Church was then I encourage you to go and make research and verify who they were and what they believed, because believe me I won't be interpreting the Bible the way you protestant love to do which is pretty much misinterpretation, I'll be going back to how the entire Christian Church has always taught and understood those scripture... so make up your mind, I won't be using the Bible alone but the Bible alone with the apostolic teaching taught in the early Church. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 12:16pm On Feb 28, 2018 |
live4dgospel: first, you reject one of the doctrine invented by Luther but you still believe in other, the doctrine of Bible Alone you have been using was invented by him. 2ndly the interpretation of the Bible is the issue, I can go about writing Bible verses but both of us will disagree on its interpretation... that is the issue. if I'll be discussing scriptures with you then the real issue is the interpretation. the early Church interpreted it in line with apostolic teaching and maintained one Church, Protestant interprete the Bible according to their own understanding and have 16000+denominations and new ones every day. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 2:18pm On Feb 28, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:If you want to know what we believe download one of our books and read and stop comparing my faith with Luther. I have told you I don't believe in his doctrine, I have not read any of his books. I only know of him when reading about the church history. If you fear there will be a clash in interpretation of the scriptures then rest your case |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 2:25pm On Feb 28, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:If you you can't use the Bible alone then rest your case, I will not entertain presenting 'unknown and imaginary early church members and their interpretation'. This is a deception of the highest order common to all Catholics. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 11:43pm On Feb 28, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:I hope that you understand everything that you said here. If you do then let me address the issue. The Roman Inquisition was not established by the state because of civil unrest, this is your first lie! Rather the Inquisition was establised by Holy See of the Roman Catholic Church in the 15th century as Catholic Church's Counter-Reformation against the spread of Protestantism. And Roman Catholic appointed people to preside over it. The purpose of the Inquisition, if you don't know, was to combat whatever Roman Catholic called heresy and alternate religious doctrine, this is your second lie! The Inquisition moved further to tackle some other issues like love magic, witchcraft, cultural morality, superstitions, Judaizing, sorcery, blasphemy, immorality etc. From its inception The Roman Catholic Church was fully responsible for all judgement and prosecution, this is yet another lie from you. It was later after the 18th century that the state started suppressing all the local Inquisitions and finally eliminated the power of the Church to prosecute heresy. Again the trial of Galileo Galilei provided a clue to what the Inquisition was all about, even though he was forced to recant from his view, he was still sentenced to house arrest till his death. This is yet another lie from you for saying that Inquisition gave people chance to abandon their beliefs. There was some other thing you hid, that's "forced confession", the Inquisition was well known for forcing people to make false confession i.e they forced people to say they did what they didn't do by torturing them, especially the rich and wealthy, all in effort to confiscate their properties after executing them! This is still yet a proof that Emperor Constantine not only legalized Catholicism but also made it state religion, this is what you previously denied! Could a church exercise such power, if the state didn't support it? I think, it is either you have poor knowledge of church history or you tried to hide the truth. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 8:37am On Mar 01, 2018 |
live4dgospel:there is nothing imaginary or unknown about the early Christians, unless you are totally averse to making research or intellectually lazy, or so dishonest that you wouldn't even dare to look at their writings.... or all of the above. there is nothing imaginary or unknown about the early Christians I'll be quoting, there is no deception there, unless of course you are aware that the way you misinterpret the Bible is totally wrong and contradictory to the entire Christian faith. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 9:21am On Mar 01, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:I can't imagine what has driven Catholics into such deception! I asked you to present your case with the Bible reference not with some other people I don't know, which you called early church. If at all the Spirit is inside you, why won't you then interprete the Bible? So anyone who does not have access to your so-called early church interpretation will not interprete the Bible? This led me to wonder whether you actually know how the early church received the teachings from the apostles. Let me help you sir, the apostles preached the gospel and make more disciples as commanded by the Lord, then after establishing churches in many places, apostles were teaching in the churches about different issues. If they couldn't personally attend the church to teach, they simply wrote letters to the churches. The born again saints had received the Holy Spirit, so they understood what the apostles taught naturally. Their letters are available to us in the Bible now, so what other private interpretation are you talking about? If at all there were interpretations from your so-called early church, then such interpretations won't contradict the Bible itself for them to be true, so what's your fear. Remember all your fears stem from the questions I asked you: You have already failed woefully for the first one. Can you attempt the second? The question goes this way: Show me from the Bible the apostles teachings about the divinity of Mary the mother of Jesus? |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 9:53am On Mar 01, 2018 |
live4dgospel:again you seem largely ignorant of this topic. the inquisition began in the 12th century not the 15th century, it predates the Protestant Reformation by over 300 years, so you are incorrect, the inquisition was not started in the 15th century. the inquisition is a Church trial but it never pronounced a death sentence, it was forbidden from condemning anyone to death, all who were unrepentant heretics were handed over to the magistrate of the state, it was the state who did the sentencing, let me tell you something, in the over 300 years of the Spanish inquisition Spain still has records of over 44000 cases were tried less than 1% was handed over to the state and got a death sentence .... it was the least bloody court in all Europe, in fact criminals in the secular courts usually appealed to be brought before the inquisition because they knew they will have the least sentence... a inquisition of over 300 years only convicted less than 1% for heresy and still less got a death sentence from the secular courts while the Protestant king Henry alone executed an estimated 57000 people in just 12 years... that should tell you how lenient it was. there was recanting, Galileo was treated harshly as a political matter, he had insulted a few people who used his trial to get him, but even at that he wasn't given death sentence even though he was found guilty of suspected heresy, he was sent to his castle to spend the rest of his days, not even a prison...his property was not confiticated and he still got family around and could write. in a Protestant England he would have been killed just for going to mass. every court in Europe used torture but none was as guided as the inquisition which was prohibited from drawing blood, from injuring and from loss of limbs with the presence of a doctor and to be used once Protestants didn't have such restrictions. lastly you should learn to make your research it is wrong to speak in ignorance. Christianity was made a state religion by the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 AD, by Emperor Theodosius I not Constantine. make research and stop spewing untruth |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 10:25am On Mar 01, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:If there were other Inquisitions before 15th century, it was certainly not Roman Inquisition which is formally known as Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition. Moreover we are talking about Italy and The Roman Inquisition, why you are comparing Spanish Inquisition and Edict of Thessalonica. If other Inquisitions were harsher is not the point of contention now, the point was the Roman Inquisition was harsh enough to take the lives of thousands if not millions! To be precise historians put the figure around 100,000 to 9,000,000 executions!!! Again I say to you, you have poor knowledge of church history. I will permit you to research more! You seem to depend on your church side of the event which is hugely flawed. Are you still insisting that the Inquisition was not developed by the Holy See of the Roman Catholic Church as a Counter-Reformation against the spread of Protestantism in 1542? Are also still insisting that the Roman Inquisition was not responsible for tribunal rulings and pronouncements of punishment? Then How great are your lies! I give you more time to investigate!!! |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 9:33pm On Mar 01, 2018 |
live4dgospel:neither the Catholic church nor the early Church nor the Bible teach "the divinity of Mary mother of Jesus", that was a lie you were told Catholics believe... your misconceptions are pretty easy to dismiss because there is no truth in them. first you were misinformed that Constantine made Christianity a state religion and that was a big lie you were told, it was Theodosius who made Christianity a state religion by the edict of Thessalonica. 2nd you were misinformed that the inquisition was began by the Church in the 15th century, that was another lie you were told, the inquisition actually began in the 12th century before Protestantism began. 3rd the Bible wasn't written as a catalog of all Christian belief, in fact the apostles mainly preached orally and wrote usually to address specific issues in the local churches where they had already committed the fullness of the faith orally. in fact in 2 thess the apostle clearly teach that the Church must hold on to the teaching committed to her both in writing and orally NOT Bible alone. in fact Bible alone is not biblical... the Bible tell us to use both the Bible and the witness of the Church who have received the Gospel orally. that is why the witness of the early Christian is indispensable in getting the context and right interpretation of the Christian belief. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 9:41pm On Mar 01, 2018 |
live4dgospel:actually what you have above is a lie. the Roman Inquisition is estimated to have tried 70,000 case not up to a million and and is estimated to have found less than 1300 people worthy of the secular option in over 300 years. this is wiki In-depth historical research regarding minor details of different types of magic, theological heresies, and political climate of The Reformation further revealed that Inquisitorial procedures greatly restrained witch hunting in Italy. Scholars specializing in the Renaissance and Early Modern period such as Guido Ruggiero, Christopher F. Black, and Mary O'Neil also discussed the importance of proper procedures and sparse use of torture. The low rate of torture and lawful interrogation, Black argued, means that trials tended to focus more on individual accusation, instead of groups. For the same reason, the notion of the Black Sabbath was much less accepted in contemporary Italian popular culture. [1][24][25] The Holy Office's function in the disenchantment of popular culture also helped advance rationalism by getting rid of superstitions. Jeffrey R. Watt refutes s the feminist claim that the Inquisition was responsible for the death of so many women. Watt points out that in 1588 the Roman Curia stated it would only allow testimony about participation in a Sabbath by the practitioners themselves and not by outside witnesses. Additionally, the Inquisition would eventually ban torture for the procurement of a witchcraft confession. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 10:17pm On Mar 01, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:I still don't know why you use Inquisition, rather than Roman Inquisition to be specific, because there were other Inquisitions, Roman Inquisition was the third variety. Is your history different from the world history? If Mary is not divine as you claim why then do you ask a 'physically' dead woman to intercede in prayer? Again I have already said that the apostles taught in churches but when they couldn't they wrote letters. Then do you think God is not wise? I mean do you think the oral teachings of the apostles are really indispensable and prerequisites for the interpretation of the written ones? How were the Old Testament Scriptures given to us, how was the Law given to us. Did Moses meet Abraham and Noah? God had everything written down because He understood the limitations of human memory! Why then do Roman Catholic Church lays too much emphasis on the oral teachings, which none of you I'm sure, can independently validate, are you wiser than God? We know the apostles very well as the ones who personally met the Lord and whom the Lord handed over the gospel, but as for the so-called early church members we can't validate! Again I say to you, you're living in the ocean of deception the earlier you know this the better for you. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 10:26pm On Mar 01, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:My own history is not just from Wikipedia alone but from history books, but your history is from your church which is greatly flawed. It's just like the different between the Nigerian and Biafran historical records of the War! Or better the difference between the Nigerian Military figures casualties and the eye witnesses figures! The wider you read the better for you!!! |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 10:45pm On Mar 01, 2018 |
live4dgospel:I have read wide on this, that is why I gave you wiki not any church sources, in fact all the guys quoted in that article are secular historians. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 6:35am On Mar 02, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:I'm still saying: you need to read wider. However this is what I just found from wiki , this is online wikepdia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Inquisition |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 4:12pm On Mar 02, 2018 |
live4dgospel:even Wikipedia agrees with me. from your link Through further research and available evidence, the Roman Inquisition was seen in a different light. In contrast with feminist arguments, historians like Clarke Garrett, Brian Levack, John Tedeschi, Matteo Duni, and Diane Purkiss pointed out that most witch trials and executions were conducted by local and secular authorities. [19][20][21][22][23] Clarke Garrett mentioned the quick decline and insignificance of the Malleus Maleficarum. In-depth historical research regarding minor details of different types of magic, theological heresies, and political climate of The Reformation further revealed that Inquisitorial procedures greatly restrained witch hunting in Italy. Scholars specializing in the Renaissance and Early Modern period such as Guido Ruggiero, Christopher F. Black, and Mary O'Neil also discussed the importance of proper procedures and sparse use of torture. The low rate of torture and lawful interrogation, Black argued, means that trials tended to focus more on individual accusation, instead of groups. For the same reason, the notion of the Black Sabbath was much less accepted in contemporary Italian popular culture. [1][24][25] The Holy Office's function in the disenchantment of popular culture also helped advance rationalism by getting rid of superstitions. Jeffrey R. Watt refutes s the feminist claim that the Inquisition was responsible for the death of so many women. Watt points out that in 1588 the Roman Curia stated it would only allow testimony about participation in a Sabbath by the practitioners themselves and not by outside witnesses. Additionally, the Inquisition would eventually ban torture for the procurement of a witchcraft confession |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 5:04pm On Mar 02, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:Why are you so convinced about one side of the story. Didn't you see the number of executions there? Didn't you see the considerations of other historians there? |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 4:40pm On Mar 03, 2018 |
live4dgospel: I saw the number of executions. it says Italian historian Andrea Del Col estimates that out of 51,000 — 75,000 cases judged by Inquisition in Italy after 1542 around 1,250 resulted in a death sentence that is the estimate.... the other historians who had high figures were all refuted right there by other historians, in fact wiki says Roman Inquisition was seen in a different light. In contrast with feminist arguments, historians like Clarke Garrett, Brian Levack, John Tedeschi, Matteo Duni, and Diane Purkiss pointed out that most witch trials and executions were conducted by local and secular authorities. [19][20][21][22][23] Clarke Garrett mentioned the quick decline and insignificance of the Malleus Maleficarum. In-depth historical research regarding minor details of different types of magic, theological heresies, and political climate of The Reformation further revealed that Inquisitorial procedures greatly restrained witch hunting in Italy. Scholars specializing in the Renaissance and Early Modern period such as Guido Ruggiero, Christopher F. Black, and Mary O'Neil also discussed the importance of proper procedures and sparse use of torture. The low rate of torture and lawful interrogation, Black argued, means that trials tended to focus more on individual accusation, instead of groups. so upon further research those outrageous figures have been refuted and it seems the Roman inquisition made sparse use of torture, in fact the Protestant and secular courts were more guilty of that, the inquisition had far less executions and prevented the mad supposed witch trial and execution that was common in Protestant areas. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 9:11pm On Mar 03, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:It seems that you have lost focus on the line of the argument, the point is not the number of executions. As I have said earlier there were thousands of executions if not in millions!!! My message is always clear: The purpose of the Roman Inquisition is to draw the attention of the true seekers from finding the fault in Catholicism, thereby powerfully and influentially corrupting the gospel. But this is what you denied, claiming that the Roman Inquisition was developed because of civil unrest, but from the Wikipedia link I shared to you, it was made clear that the Roman Inquisition was developed to combat whatever the Roman Catholic church termed heresy and alternate religious doctrines and as a Counter-Reformation against the spread of Protestantism. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Thegospelman(m): 9:22pm On Mar 03, 2018 |
live4dgospel:Brother note that we don't have history in our hand but the Word of God. So don't waste your time on the things that we may not be able to independently verify. Let's move forward in spreading the gospel of water and the Spirit to the whole world. This is the only gospel of salvation everyone must hear. Those who hear the gospel but despite knowing it still reject it deserve nothing but eternal hell. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 12:00am On Mar 04, 2018 |
Thegospelman:just like the new generation Church, always quick to threaten with hell fire |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by Ubenedictus(m): 12:00am On Mar 04, 2018 |
live4dgospel: the inquisition it self was created to stem civil unrest and provide a just system, it began in the 12 century and that is true, its aim isn't to stop people from reading the Bible but to make sure the state didn't punish innocent people for crimes they weren't guilty of, you can read that up here. http://galileo.rice.edu/lib/student_work/trial96/loftis/overview.html here is a quote. Another reason for Pope Gregory IX's creation of the Inquisition was to bring order and legality to the process of dealing with heresy, since there had been tendencies in the mobs of townspeople to burn alleged heretics without much of a trial. Pope Gregory's original intent for the Inquisition was a court of exception to inquire into and glean the beliefs of those differing from Catholic teaching, and to instruct them in the orthodox doctrine. It was hoped that heretics would see the falsity of the ir opinion and would return to the Roman Catholic Church. If they persisted in their heresy, however, Pope Gregory, finding it necessary to protect the Catholic community from infection would have suspects handed over to civil authorities since these her etics had violated not only Church law but civil law as well. The secular authorities would apply their own brands of punishment for civil disobedience which, at the time, included burning at the stake. so again I was correct, the Inquisition didn't execute people that was left to the state. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by orunto27: 12:19am On Mar 04, 2018 |
Love Life. |
Re: How Can Man Be Sinless? by live4dgospel(m): 7:19am On Mar 04, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:You are funny! What's the Inquisition? A group of cardinals presiding over the ruling and passing judgement that so so person has been found guilty of heresy and should be punished. If they handed over the killings to the state, what's the difference? How can a state interfere in Christian faith if it has not befome part of the church, and this is something you continued to deny that Emperor Constantine did not make Roman Catholic a state religion, on this you defended yourself with "civil unrest"! For instance in the case of Galileo, who believed in heliocentric theory, he was still termed a heretic and was put into house arrest till his death. How did he cause civil unrest with his scientific knowledge? This is a case of Giordano Bruno from wiki Starting in 1593, Bruno was tried for heresy by the Roman Inquisition on charges of denial of several core Catholic doctrines, including eternal damnation , the Trinity , the divinity of Christ, the virginity of Mary, and transubstantiation . Bruno's pantheism was also a matter of grave concern, [4] as was his teaching of the transmigration of the soul ( reincarnation ). The Inquisition found him guilty, and he was burned at the stake in Rome's Campo de' Fiori in 1600. After his death, he gained considerable fame, being particularly celebrated by 19th- and early 20th-century commentators who regarded him as a martyr for science , [5] although historians have debated the extent to which his heresy trial was a response to his astronomical views or to other aspects of his philosophy and theology. [6][7][8][9][10] Bruno's case is still considered a landmark in the history of free thought and the emerging sciences.[11][12][13] Cornelio Da Montalcino was a Franciscan friar who had embraced Judaism , and was burned alive on the Campo dei Fiori in Rome , Italy , in 1554. This is the case of Jacob Palaeologus Jacob Palaeologus, born Giacomo da Chio (c. 1520 – March 23, 1585) was a Dominican friar who renounced his religious vows and became an antitrinitarian theologian. An indefatigable polemicist against both Calvinism and Papal Power , Palaeologus cultivated a wide range of high-placed contacts and correspondents in the imperial, royal, and aristocratic households in Eastern Europe and the Ottoman Empire ; [1] while formulating and propagating a radically heterodox version of Christianity, in which Jesus Christ was not to be invoked in worship, and where purported irreconcilable differences between Christianity, Islam, and Judaism were rejected as spurious fabrications. He was continually pursued by his many enemies, repeatedly escaping through his many covert supporters. Palaeologus played an active role in the high politics of European religion and diplomacy over a period of twenty years before he lost imperial favour; and having been extradited to the Papal States , was executed for heresy by the Roman Inquisition . This is the case of Aonio Paleario In 1542 the Inquisition made his tract Della Pienezza, sufficienza, et satisfazione della passione di Christo , or Libellus de morte Christi (The Benefit of Christ's Death), the basis of a charge of heresy, from which, however, he successfully defended himself. In Siena he wrote his Actio in pontifices romanos et eorum asseclas , a vigorous indictment, in twenty testimonia, against what he now believed to be the fundamental error of the Roman Church in subordinating Scripture to tradition, as well as against various particular doctrines, such as that of purgatory; it was not, however, printed until after his death (Leipzig, 1606). [2] In 1546 he accepted a professorial chair at Lucca, which he exchanged in 1555 for that of Greek and Latin literature at Milan . Here about 1566 his enemies renewed their activity, and in 1567 he was formally accused by Fra Angelo , the inquisitor of Milan. He was tried at Rome, condemned to death in October 1569, and executed in July 1570. [2] This is the case of Domenico Scandella Domenico Scandella (1532–1599), also known as Menocchio, was a miller from Montereale , Italy , who in the 16th century was tried by the Inquisition for his unorthodox religious views, and burnt at the stake for heresy in 1599. His life and beliefs are known from the Inquisition records, and has been the subject of the book The Cheese and the Worms by Carlo Ginzburg .[1][2][3][4] Biography His parents were Zuane and Menega. He lived most of his life in Montereale, except for two years when he was banished from the town for brawling. He had learned to read and read a number of contemporary works on religion and history. From these, he developed his religious views that departed substantially from Catholic orthodoxy of the time. He was first tried for heresy in 1583, and abjured his statements in 1584, but spent another 20 months in prison in Concordia. Released in 1586, he claimed to have reformed. He continued to be in house arrest and had to wear a sign of a burning cross on his garments as a visible sign of his crimes. In 1598, he was arrested again as a lapsed heretic , having continued to propagate his beliefs. In 1599, he was declared a heresiarch and was executed by burning. During his trial, he argued that the only sin was to harm one's neighbor and that to blaspheme caused no harm to anyone but the blasphemer. He went so far as to say that Jesus was born of man and Mary was not a virgin, that the Pope had no power given to him from God but simply exemplified the qualities of a good man, and that Christ had not died to "redeem humanity ".[5] This is the case of Pomponio Algerio Pomponio Algerio (1531 – 22 August 1556) was an Italian religious martyr. Algerio was born in Nola, and was a civil law student at the University of Padua , where his Lutheran theological beliefs attracted the attention of the Roman Inquisition . [1] At his trial, he wore his academic hat and gown to remind the tribunal that, as a student, he had the right to freely express his ideas. From the transcript of Pomponio Algerio at his trial: "I say that the Church deviates from the truth in so far as it says that a man could not do anything in any way good on his own, since nothing praiseworthy can proceed from our corrupt infected nature except to the extent that the lord God gives us his grace... the Roman Catholic Church is a particular Church and no Christian should restrict himself to any particular Church. This Church deviates in many things from truth." After refusing to conform to Church doctrine, he was sentenced to prison and asked to reconsider his Lutheran beliefs. After a year behind bars, he still refused to reconsider. Because Venetian authorities would not consent to an execution, Pope Paul IV sent officials to extradite Pomponio to Rome. In Rome, on 21 August 1555, a monk from the brotherhood of St John the Beheaded visited Pomponio in his cell urging him to repent. If he repented, he would be strangled before burning. The 24- year-old student refused. One year later, on 22 August 1556, he was executed by civil authorities in the Piazza Navona, Rome . Maintaining his composure while he was boiled in oil, he stayed alive for 15 minutes before dying. These are just the most outstanding figures who fell victim of the Roman Inquisition, of course there are other thousands if not million cases . Even though I don't side with them on all their views, my message is clear: They were killed by the Roman Inquisition not because they caused civil unrest but because they held different views from that of the Roman Catholic Church. |
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