Ubenedictus:
sorry dear, with the church fathers I'll say, I believe in the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church.


Not going anywhere

tell where Catholic church got that rosary from..... where is purgatory in your Bible........did Jesus ever pray to Mary..,..is hail holy queen biblical....... you will leave Roman catholic when God open your eyes

Ubenedictus:
so you will agree that God took flesh in Mary's womb, Mary carried God in human flesh for nine months, Mary gave birth to God in human flesh and nurtured him?

But you won't agree that Mary is the mother of God?


If you don't agree with the earlier phrases please tell me the ones you agree with and the ones you disagree with

it seems you don't know the difference between the humanity of Christ and his divine nature.

read my previous post very well

you seem to say there is no difference between the humanity of Christ and his divine nature right? if there are then you have no point

Ubenedictus:
so you will agree that God took flesh in Mary's womb, Mary carried God in human flesh for nine months, Mary gave birth to God in human flesh and nurtured him?

But you won't agree that Mary is the mother of God?


If you don't agree with the earlier phrases please tell me the ones you agree with and the ones you disagree with

a woman nurturing and taking care of a baby doesn't make it her own.
she can take care and nature the child of someone else but doesn't mean it's her own.

your are just going round in circles
ask yourself why Jesus always call Mary woman instead of mother.
Mary may carry Jesus in her womb and nature her but it doesn't make her mother of God.

Ubenedictus:
you can also argue with the church fathers who clearly call Mary mother of God, like to see them

I don't follow men's doctrine/ creed but the infallible word of God
there is no where in the bible Mary was called mother of God no teaching like that.
this and many more doctrine of rcc where from pagans.

blueAgent:


Yes ,but Jesus himself stated that his father is greater than him.

John 14:28
“You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going
away and coming back to you.’ If you loved
Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am
going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater
than I.”

yes Jesus was less than his father as a man.
note Jesus is both God and man
John 1:1 states that Jesus was God
from the Bible we learnt that God cannot change
when Jesus became man he became part of creation himself but at the same thing outside creation, he became a bridge.
the divine nature of Christ is distinct from his humanity, they are separate but not mixed.
rcc claim that Mary was both the mother of the humanity of Christ and his divinity is false.

the bible is filled with the differences between Christ as a man and Christ as God.
Christ as a man had a beginning, he had a mother, did not even know the time of his coming, expressed fear of death lived like a normal human except he had no sin.
christ as God had no beginning or ending nor mother or father, cannot die is beyond time and space.

people who teach that mary is the mother of God are denying the distinction of the humanity of christ from his divinity by lumping it to together.
the hypostatic union teaches that christ divinity and his humanity are separate and distinct but united in one person.

what this means is that although they are different but christ function as man and God at this same time.
for example when the man christ was a baby, God was not a baby.
when christ slept
yet God does not slumber or sleep.

first of all if you don't believe in the bible then, you will have problem with my answer but if you believe in the bible the answer is there.
mary is the mother of Jesus and Joseph is the father, they are both like any normal family both lay together and had a son and the holy spirit moves into that child and that made him the Jesus that he is>
there is not immaculate conception like that catholic have you to believe.
i will show you the scriptures.
for you to know the bible you have to know the stories then you have to know the mysteries and then the doctrines
let me get to my bible

Is Mary a Virgin?


1 cor 1;10
“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

1cor 14;37
“If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭14:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Colossians 2;18
“Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Luke 1;26-33
““And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:26-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

2samuel 7;12-14
“And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:”
‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭7:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Luke 1;32-33
“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Luke 1;27
“To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Luke 1;34
“Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Acts 7:51 resist the Holy Ghost
“Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Luke 1:35-56
““And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God nothing shall be impossible. And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:35-56‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Luke 3:23
“And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Mathew 1:16
“And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Luke 3:22 Mary’s family
“And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Mathew 1:1 -4 generation of Jesus
“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judah and his brethren; And Judah begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Exodus 6:23 aminadad
““And Aaron took him Elisheba, daughter of Amminadab, sister of Nahshon, to wife; and she bare him Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Deuteronomy 18:18
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭18:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

1 Chronicles 3:16-17
“And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son. And the sons of Jeconiah; Assir, Salathiel his son,”
‭‭1 Chronicles‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jeremiah 36:30-31
“Therefore thus saith the Lord of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost. And I will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that I have pronounced against them; but they hearkened not.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭36:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Isaiah 7:14-16
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

1chronicles 3:16
Mathew 1:11-16
“And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:11-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Mathew 1;21 captivity
“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Mathew 1:18
“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Custom of marriage
Luke 14:8 coming together
“When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭14:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

John 2:1-2
“And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.”
‭‭John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Judges 15:1
“But it came to pass within a while after, in the time of wheat harvest, that Samson visited his wife with a kid; and he said, I will go in to my wife into the chamber. But her father would not suffer him to go in.”
‭‭Judges‬ ‭15:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Tobit 6:12-13
And the maid is fair and wise: now therefore hear me, and I will speak to her father; and when we return from Rages we will celebrate the marriage: for I know that Raguel cannot marry her to another according to the law of Moses, but he shall be guilty of death, because the right of inheritance doth rather appertain to thee than to any other.
Then the young man answered the angel, I have heard, brother Azarias that this maid hath been given to seven men, who all died in the marriage chamber.
Tobit 7:13-18

Tobit 8:1-19
And when they had supped, they brought Tobias in unto her.
And as he went, he remembered the words of Raphael, and took the ashes of the perfumes, and put the heart and the liver of the fish thereupon, and made a smoke therewith.
The which smell when the evil spirit had smelled, he fled into the utmost parts of Egypt, and the angel bound him.
And after that they were both shut in together, Tobias rose out of the bed, and said, Sister, arise, and let us pray that God would have pity on us.
Then began Tobias to say, Blessed art thou, O God of our fathers, and blessed is thy holy and glorious name for ever; let the heavens bless thee, and all thy creatures.
Thou madest Adam, and gavest him Eve his wife for an helper and stay: of them came mankind: thou hast said, It is not good that man should be alone; let us make unto him an aid like unto himself.
And now, O Lord, I take not this my sister for lush but uprightly: therefore mercifully ordain that we may become aged together.
And she said with him, Amen.
So they slept both that night. And Raguel arose, and went and made a grave,
Saying, I fear lest he also be dead.
But when Raguel was come into his house,
He said unto his wife Edna. Send one of the maids, and let her see whether he be alive: if he be not, that we may bury him, and no man know it.
So the maid opened the door, and went in, and found them both asleep,
And came forth, and told them that he was alive.
Then Raguel praised God, and said, O God, thou art worthy to be praised with all pure and holy praise; therefore let thy saints praise thee with all thy creatures; and let all thine angels and thine elect praise thee for ever.
Thou art to be praised, for thou hast made me joyful; and that is not come to me which I suspected; but thou hast dealt with us according to thy great mercy.
Thou art to be praised because thou hast had mercy of two that were the only begotten children of their fathers: grant them mercy, O Lord, and finish their life in health with joy and mercy.
Then Raguel bade his servants to fill the grave.
And he kept the wedding feast fourteen days.

2esdra 10:1
And it so came to pass, that when my son was entered into his wedding chamber, he fell down, and died.

Deuteronomy 22:13
“If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭22:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Deuteronomy 22:20-21
“But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the LovePeddler in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭22:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Mathew 1;19
“Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hebrew 2:16 not the nature of the angel
“For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Deuteronomy 18:18
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭18:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

1 cor 15:39-40
“All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:39-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Wisdom of Solomon 7:1-7
I myself also am a mortal man, like to all, and the offspring of him that was first made of the earth,
And in my mother's womb was fashioned to be flesh in the time of ten months, being compacted in blood, of the seed of man, and the pleasure that came with sleep.
And when I was born, I drew in the common air, and fell upon the earth, which is of like nature, and the first voice which I uttered was crying, as all others do.
I was nursed in swaddling clothes, and that with cares.
For there is no king that had any other beginning of birth.
For all men have one entrance into life, and the like going out.
Wherefore I prayed, and understanding was given me: I called upon God, and the spirit of wisdom came to me.
Wisdom of Solomon 7;1-7

Liviticus 15:16-18
“And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even. The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭15:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Romans 1;3
“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Galatians 4:4
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jn7;42
“Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:42‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Act 13;23
“Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭13:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

2thimpty 2 : 8
“Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Acts 2:30 according to the flesh
“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Luke 4:22
“And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭4:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jn 6:42
“And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:42‬ ‭KJV‬‬

John1:45
“Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Math 13:55-56
“Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:55-56‬ ‭
‬‬
Math1:25
“And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Leve 12;2-4
“Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭12:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Luke 2: 48
“And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭2:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

1john 4:3
“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Acts 2:30 best one
“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Titus 1:14-15
“Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭1:14-15‬

solite3:
I don't follow men's doctrine/ creed but the infallible word of God
there is no where in the bible Mary was called mother of God no teaching like that.
this and many more doctrine of rcc where from pagans.

you were the person jumping up and down shouting church fathers, church fathers, you finally found out that they don't support your teaching and actually declared it to be total heresy and now you are back to where we started. So please answer my question.






so you will agree that God took flesh in Mary's womb, Mary carried God in human flesh for nine months, Mary gave birth to God in human flesh and nurtured him?

But you won't agree that Mary is the mother of God?


If you don't agree with the earlier phrases please tell me the ones you agree with and the ones you disagree with

solite3:

a woman nurturing and taking care of a baby doesn't make it her own.
she can take care and nature the child of someone else but doesn't mean it's her own.

your are just going round in circles
ask yourself why Jesus always call Mary woman instead of mother.
Mary may carry Jesus in her womb and nature her but it doesn't make her mother of God.

so you agree that Mary nurtured God in human flesh, do you also agree that God took flesh in Mary's womb? That Mary bore God in human flesh for 9 months? that Mary birth God in human flesh?

doyinbaby:
tell where Catholic church got that rosary from..... where is purgatory in your Bible........did Jesus ever pray to Mary..,..is hail holy queen biblical....... you will leave Roman catholic when God open your eyes

all the above are answerable if you open a thread for them

Ubenedictus:

so you will agree that God took flesh in Mary's womb, Mary carried God in human flesh for nine months, Mary gave birth to God in human flesh and nurtured him?

But you won't agree that Mary is the mother of God?


If you don't agree with the earlier phrases please tell me the ones you agree with and the ones you disagree with

He's all over the place!

budaatum:

He's all over the place!

that is the problem, the worst is that he is referencing the hypostatic union, if he knew what that is he wouldn't mention it.

mary was the mother of Jesus not God, but the son of God. keep it simples.
somebody was asking to show him the verse where it says she is the mother of Jesus
Mathew 1:6 and Jacob begot joseph the husband of mary, whom was born Jesus, who is called christ.
Mathew 1:21 and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call his name Jesus
john 6:42 and they said, is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph and mother we know? how is it then he saith that i come down from heaven.

this why am telling you guys to keep it simple Jesus is Lord not God we have only God and is not Jesus.

Hebrew 2:16 for verily he took not on him the nature of the angels; but he took ob him the seed of Abraham.
just a prove that Jesus is not God, another one is when his disciple asked him a question
Mathew 10:18 and Jesus said unto him, why calmest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God.
if you noticed Jesus did not call himself God, but he refer to his father. so guys Mary did not nurture God.

why Mary is not the mother of God

In the 4th century, when Constantine the Great appointed himself Pontifex Maximus – supreme head – of the Christian Church, pagans and their pagan beliefs began infiltrating Christendom. Among the most influential of the new “converts” were those from the Mediterranean and Middle East areas where worship of the “Great Mother Goddess” and the “Divine Virgin” had existed since Babylon. According to Britannica, these groups:
“….found within the Christian Church a new possibility of expression in the worship of Mary as the virgin mother of God, in whom was achieved the mysterious union of the divine Logos with human nature. ” (Britannica,
Christianity : The doctrine of the Virgin Mary and holy Wisdom.)
By the end of the 4th century, Mary the mother of Jesus, known prior to the advent of Constantine as the Christ-bearer, (Greek
Christotokos, ) was being referred to as the God-bearer, ( theotokos .) Thus was born the doctrine of Mary, mother of God, a title foreign to Scripture where she is called only the mother of Jesus. At first, this matter drew little attention, but in AD 428, Anastasius, a presbyter in the church at Constantinople, raised objections to the theotokos appellation, and thereby originated a controversy that continues to exist here in the 21 st century.
Anastasius was immediately supported in his position by Nestorius, bishop of the Constantinople church, who believed that the
theotokos title adversely affected the fact of our Lord’s full humanity. Cyril, powerful bishop of Alexandria, motivated as much by envy of Constantinople’s standing among the eastern churches as he was by the theological aspects of the controversy, joined battle over the issue with Nestorius, outflanked him at the AD 431 First Council of Ephesus, and succeeded in confirming Mary as the mother of God. Nestorius, falsely accused of separating Christ’s two natures – human and divine – subsequently was excommunicated, then sacked as bishop of Constantinople by the emperor, Theodosius II, who had appointed him in the first place. He died in exile, but the controversy lives on. Is Mary the mother or Jesus? Or is she, a created being, the mother of eternal God?
The Roman Catholic Church and certain mainline churches that split from Rome during or following the Reformation, declare unequivocally that Mary is, in fact, the mother of God. Those historically and currently who oppose this teaching are accused, as was Nestorius, of “dividing Christ” into an “earthly Jesus” and a “heavenly Jesus,” thereby denying the essential unity of our Lord’s two natures. But that is merely an unproved and unprovable accusation. Christ, in fact, had two distinct natures fused into a single human body, a mystery quite as hidden to man as three distinct persons comprising a single Godhead. To say that Mary was the mother of Jesus only is no more a division of Christ’s two natures than acknowledging Christ as the only begotten Son of the Father is a division of the Godhead. Both are mysteries akin to that of a virgin being with child allegedly conceived by that same unborn child because He is a member of the Godhead. Shades, in other words, of the Babylonian “Mystery” religion.
In a document entitled, The Mother of Jesus , published by the Catholic Information Service of the Knights of Columbus, justification for calling Mary the mother of God is capsulized in the following two paragraphs:
In the natural and normal process of human reproduction, when both maternal and paternal functions unite, God simultaneously creates the human soul which enlivens the fecundated ovum in the woman’s womb, and thus a human person is conceived. It is always an individual’s human nature – a person who possesses human nature. (Emphasis added.)
It matters not that the woman has no part in the production of the spiritual element
(directly created by God) in the human nature of the person she conceives. It suffices that she has supplied the bodily substance which goes into the constitution of human nature possessed by the person, that she rightly acquires the title of mother. (Emphasis added.)
No one disputes the fact that Mary is the mother of the human Jesus even though she was not the “supplier” of His human soul. Nor is there any question that the man Christ Jesus was created human in body, soul and spirit. What is disputed is the extension of the title “mother” to a divine nature that eternally existed and was not created in the womb of the virgin. A mother is only the mother of what originates within her womb. The second person of the blessed trinity did not originate in Mary’s body. He is without beginning – has always existed – and has no mother.
“Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.) (Psalm 90:2) “Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.” (Psalm 93:2)
“But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him,” (Psalm 103:17) “Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.” (Psalm 106:48)
That Jesus had two natures – one created and one eternal - united in a single human body is beyond question. That only one of those two natures originated in Mary’s womb also is beyond question. And why she cannot then be called the mother of God finds an exact parallel in Christ’s relationship to King David.
“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David :” (Luke 1:32) “And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?” (Matt 12:23) “And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David ; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.” (Matt 15:22) “And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of
David.” (Matt 20:30) “And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David : Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.” (Matt 21:9)
In these Scriptures it is clearly established that the nation of Israel expected their Messiah to derive – as prophesied - from the tribe of Judah and the house of David, thereby attributing fatherhood of the Messiah to David in accordance with their method of reckoning descent. But David cannot be called the father of God because of his relationship to the man Christ Jesus. Our Lord Himself preempted any possibility of that erroneous belief.
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Matt 22:42-46) Parallel accounts of this episode are found in Mark 12: 35-37, and Luke 20:41-44.
In these Scriptures, our Lord has done what Roman Catholic apologists say may not be done. He has clearly drawn a line between the human nature and the eternal nature of Christ. He has clearly established the fact that David is NOT the father of God, because he is NOT the father of the second person of the blessed trinity. He has clearly shown this distinction of natures to be a mystery – one the Jews of His day could not comprehend any better than the Roman Catholics or Christians of the 21st century. This mystery of the two fused but separate natures manifest in Christ finds another reference in the following excerpt from the Gospel of John. When confronted by the Jews and constrained to identify himself, John the Baptist’s response included this interesting disclosure: “For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him .” (John 3:34) Certainly the Holy Spirit could not have been given to the Second Person of the trinity for He is part of that trinity. So the Holy Spirit that was given without measure was given only to the
man Christ Jesus.
It stands to reason, then, that like King David – to whom fatherhood ONLY of the
man Christ Jesus is attributed - Mary is the Mother ONLY of the man Christ Jesus. To prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt, let us insert Mary’s name in place of King David’s in the previously cited Scriptures:
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of MARY . He saith unto them, How then doth MARY call him Lord, saying, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Luke 1:46, 47) If
MARY then call him Lord, how is he her son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.”
To insist that Mary is Christotokos only and not theotokos is not to separate Jesus into a “heavenly Jesus” and an “earthly Jesus” as Roman Catholicism contends. It is merely recognizing what Jesus Himself made clear, that David was not the father of God, and by parallel reasoning, Mary was His earthly mother only, and not a Goddess or Queen of Heaven worthy of the title mother of God.
Because the Second Person of the blessed trinity is an eternal being having neither a beginning nor an ending, it was the man Christ Jesus who suffered as the second Adam on Calvary and died for the sins of the world. The Second Person of the trinity did not die, cannot die or be put to death. And it’s the man Christ Jesus – not the Second Person of the trinity - who is said Scripturally to be the one mediator between God and man. (1 Tim 2:5) He who is eternal, who could not and cannot die, could not be, and was not, born of the virgin.
Conclusion: Jesus Christ the man is the son of Mary. The Second Person of the Trinity is her God, not her son, for He did not originate in her womb.

Ubenedictus:
you were the person jumping up and down shouting church fathers, church fathers, you finally found out that they don't support your teaching and actually declared it to be total heresy and now you are back to where we started. So please answer my question.






so you will agree that God took flesh in Mary's womb, Mary carried God in human flesh for nine months, Mary gave birth to God in human flesh and nurtured him?

But you won't agree that Mary is the mother of God?


If you don't agree with the earlier phrases please tell me the ones you agree with and the ones you disagree with

I don't do dogma or creed, who are the church fathers? are they greater than the bible? even the teaching of Paul the greatest apostle was scrutinized with scripture.
heresy is any doctrine that is not in conformity with scripture of which mary mother of God is one.


go through my posts and see my stand.

Ubenedictus:
so you agree that Mary nurtured God in human flesh, do you also agree that God took flesh in Mary's womb? That Mary bore God in human flesh for 9 months? that Mary birth God in human flesh?

do you also agree that David is the father of God?

solite3:
funny enough not even the church father's creed called mary mother of God the son.
going by logic david from whom mary came must the bear the title forefather of God right? but Jesus disagrees with you he is not the son of David, that automatically mean he is not the son of mary.

so, there is nothing like mother of God neither father of God

solite3:
the divine nature didn't change you can argue that with the church fathers.
Jesus as God didn't change, so never had a mother.

solite3:


I don't do dogma or creed, who are the church fathers? are they greater than the bible? even the teaching of Paul the greatest apostle was scrutinized with scripture.
heresy is any doctrine that is not in conformity with scripture of which mary mother of God is one.


go through my posts and see my stand.

see as your dishonesty is making you fly all over the place.

first, you referenced the creed and the church fathers to support your falsehood. now that your falsehood is exposed, you are saying that you don't do creed and you don't recognize the church fathers.

you don't have a stand because your position is false. your stand is not concrete.

you've been shown your error yet you don't want to accept that you are wrong because of your hatred for the truth.

solite3:
do you also agree that David is the father of God?

when you talk to the woman that gave birth to you, do you call her 'your mother' or the 'mother of your flesh alone'?

when she gave birth to you, did she give birth to flesh alone or flesh and spirit?

solite3:


I don't do dogma or creed, who are the church fathers? are they greater than the bible? even the teaching of Paul the greatest apostle was scrutinized with scripture.
heresy is any doctrine that is not in conformity with scripture of which mary mother of God is one.


go through my posts and see my stand.

you are the one who have been shouting about the church fathers now you suddenly don't know them.


be sincere with yourself.

Gggg102:




see as your dishonesty is making you fly all over the place.

first, you referenced the creed and the church fathers to support your falsehood. now that your falsehood is exposed, you are saying that you don't do creed and you don't recognize the church fathers.

you don't have a stand because your position is false. your stand is not concrete.

you've been shown your error yet you don't want to accept that you are wrong because of your hatred for the truth.

the fact that I quoted the church fathers doesn't mean I belive whatever they taught.
my pisition is not concrete yet you couldn't disprove it?
pls show me the error, I m still waiting

Gggg102:


when you talk to the woman that gave birth to you, do you call her 'your mother' or the 'mother of your flesh alone'?

when she gave birth to you, did she give birth to flesh alone or flesh and spirit?

yes she is the mother of my flesh, she understand that, in fact she knew that her role as a mother is only in this life.
now answer me
is David the father of God?

Ubenedictus:
you are the one who have been shouting about the church fathers now you suddenly don't know them.


be sincere with yourself.

the fact that I quoted the church fathers doesn't mean I believe all that they taught

solite3:
yes she is the mother of my flesh, she understand that, in fact she knew that her role as a mother is only in this life.
now answer me
is David the father of God?

when she gave birth to you did she give birth to only flesh?

Gggg102:


when she gave birth to you did she give birth to only flesh?

answer my question first

solite3:
a woman nurturing and taking care of a baby doesn't make it her own.
she can take care and nature the child of someone else but doesn't mean it's her own.
your are just going round in circles

If the baby was conceived with her egg, the baby becomes her own

solite3:
ask yourself why Jesus always call Mary woman instead of mother.
Mary may carry Jesus in her womb and nature her but it doesn't make her mother of God.

Jesus never at any time, said
"Mary isnt my mother", nor never said, "she isnt my mother" or say, "that woman isnt my mother"

Almost, if not all, each occasion, where Jesus called Mary and/or other females "Woman"
it is because He is talking to the Eve, the first woman in them

Ubenedictus:
so you agree that Mary nurtured God in human flesh,
do you also agree that God took flesh in Mary's womb?
That Mary bore God in human flesh for 9 months?
that Mary birth God in human flesh?

solite3:
do you also agree that David is the father of God?

If you had responded to Ubenedictus' post first,
I bet you, Ubenedictus would have responded to yours too
Instead we have, two posts left unanswered because people are pretending not have read them

MuttleyLaff:

Almost, if not all, each occasion, where Jesus called Mary and/or other females "Woman" it is because He is talking to the Eve, the first woman in them

This is the sort of made up stuff you say that then tends to ruin your entire position! There is absolutely nothing in scripture in support of the assertion that Jesus was talking to Eve. And a more plausible explanation is available to boot, the following being one:
Indeed, to modern ears Jesus’ addressing Mary as “woman” sounds a bit cold. But in Aramaic, the language in which Our Lord spoke, it was actually a term of respect — a normal, polite form of address, as the New American Bible observes in a footnote to John 2:4.

And here's a link to a pointless ramble on the subject giving a different reason, though I confess the point eludes me.

When one makes up stuff in an argument, one should understand that one is equally permitting the other to do likewise. Then we night as well be arguing whether the pie in the sky is in the north or the south and whether it is a Nigerian meatpie or a Scottish steak and kidney pie, for all the advancing in understanding it effects.

If I have wrongly accused you of pie in the skying, I would gladly be corrected. But please, to the point, and without rambling, just so my tiny head can get around it.

Thanks, anticipatingly.

solite3:
answer my question first

yes he is.
now can you answer my question?
did your mother give birth to flesh only?

solite3:
yes she is the mother of my flesh, she understand that, in fact she knew that her role as a mother is only in this life.
now answer me
is David the father of God?

solite3:
funny enough not even the church father's creed called mary mother of God the son.
going by logic david from whom mary came must the bear the title forefather of God right? but Jesus disagrees with you he is not the son of David, that automatically mean he is not the son of mary.

so, there is nothing like mother of God neither father of God

According to Solite Jesus disagreed been a Son of David

solite3:



Luke 20:41-44 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

That is what he understands from the passage above.

solite3:
yes she is the mother of my flesh, she understand that, in fact she knew that her role as a mother is only in this life.
now answer me
is David the father of God?

So is Jesus Christ flesh in heaven?

yes

MosesAlex:

So is Jesus Christ flesh in heaven?

no

MosesAlex:

So is Jesus Christ flesh in heaven?