Empiree:
you need to talk harder. Whatever happened was not the focus of Quran. What quran needed was that Jesus was not kill it crucified. This is sufficient for us. My question which both of you evaded was, who killed Jesus and who led to his capture?.

We as musings are not interested in supertition that too place. God tells us he was not killed he was not crucified. We don't need witnesses stories. As I said before, Quran goes further to say witnesses were in doubt and they have no knowledge of what actually happened.

Again, this is sufficient for us. We believe in what had been revealed to us. If witnesses were sure they would give you two different account if his crucifixion.

Once again, Jesus said he would die in peace but his "death" according to CHRISTIANITY was very violent one. "Being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground” (Luke 22:44, emphasis added). Subsequently He is arrested, beaten, and executed in grotesque and humiliating fashion. The Roman system of crucifixion had been finely tuned to produce the maximum of pain. In fact, the word excruciating (literally, “out of the cross”) had to be invented to fully codify its horror.

If Mark and Luke accounts were recorded separately, didn't they get their information from the same source (s) eyewitnesses?.

This means eyewitnesses accounts were false as Quran rightly said. Too much holes in your Bible.

Sorry Sir.
Explain what happened to Jesus. He disappeared! No problem!
HOW?
Since you don't believe in substitution, HOW was the illusion cast on the Jews and Romans?

You have just been repeating "this money is fake, this money is fake.."
Unfortunately a necessary condition of establishing that a currency is fake is two folds
1. Say the detail characteristics of the original money
2. Compare the details of the fake with the details of the original

If you can't do the two, you have no iota of locus standing to be taken seriously.

Jesus said he would die in peace? I wonder where you got that!?
Twisting the scriptures as usual

Luk 9:21-22:
"Thereupon he checked them, and ordered them to tell no one this; adding, that the son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and Scribes, and be put to death , and raised on the third day."

Since the witnesses were confused according to you, are you aware that Mary the mother was one of those witnesses? Are you aware that John, one of the closest disciples of Jesus was at the place of Crucifixion?....or maybe Mary couldn't recognise her son because she was crying or she made arrangement with Pilate to act a crying drama!?

Which ever angle you take, satan forgot to tie the loopholes and the noose ties strongly bon your neck.

In the court of law, how is the TRUTH determined from two conflicting positions?
By asking relevant questions!
Even according to Islam, the angels of death would ask everyone who dies at least three questions before the execute reward or judgement.

Any so called "TRUTH" that cannot be questioned is at best a conjunction!

PrecisionFx:
It was Judas Iscariot that died on the cross

Please provide evidence for this!
AND
If Judas was killed and Jesus was taken to heaven, :
Was Jesus taken to heaven in the presence of his disciples or in secret?

What was detailed in the bible
1. Judas regretted his action of betraying Jesus to the Jews and Roman
2. He went to return the bribe money that he collected back to the Jews
3. He went to hang himself dead
4. Looks like he was swollen by the time he was found so that his stomach burst when he was cut down.

If you need scriptures, I can give you for each

Empiree:

If the Koran claims that it was meant to appear as if Christ has been crucified it means it CONFIRMS that there was an actual crucifixion: Unless Moslems now want to tell us that Allah was showing people a movie to deceive them.

Now, there was a whole PROCESS involved in crucifixion – arrest, trial (in the case of Jesus 6 to 7 trials by different groups of people), carrying of the cross to the place of execution, and then the actual crucifixion.

Is the Koran saying that from the arrest and trial on through to the crucifixion EVERYONE involved was DECEIVED into believing that they were seeing Jesus?

Or are we to believe that it was only at the cross that the people were CONFUSED by Allah to now think that the person they are seeing at the cross is Jesus when all along it had been a different person?

It is most likely that those who put together the Koran never thought of all these.

Do Moslems even consider the fact that Rome – the Roman government machinery – was also involved in all these? So, the entire nation and system became BLINDED by Allah to the real thing happening.

The INNOCENT can pay on behalf of the guilty. The guiltless can pay for the bail of an accused. The INNOCENT can pay for the fine imposed on a guilty person. That is what God chose to do through Jesus Christ. The INNOCENT Christ chose to pay the penalty for the sin of mankind.

Even in Islam slaves can be redeemed so the issue of one person bailing out another ought not to be a difficult thing to comprehend. But warped understanding makes it difficult to accept.

And, the RESURRECTION, which is a greater display of the POWER of God confirmed God’s acceptance of Jesus’ payment. The resurrection also confirmed the INTEGRITY of God – a God who will not deliberately DECEIVE people. The God of the Bible did not hide behind a screen like Allah did in the Koran.

Moslems also run away from accepting the fact that the Koran’s mention of Jewish and Christian holy books meant that these books were within the reach of Moslems at that time. So, how come the books suddenly VANISHED into the thin air or became so corrupted that only Moslems can IDENTIFY just a few verses here and there in the existing copies to support the Koran while the rest of the portions have been corrupted? Yet these same Moslems CANNOT show us when and how they were corrupted – did the Jews and Christians hold a conference to do this while no single Moslem kept copies of books that even their leader Mohamed regarded as God’s word?

shadeyinka:

Please provide evidence for this!
AND
If Judas was killed and Jesus was taken to heaven, :
Was Jesus taken to heaven in the presence of his disciples or in secret?

What was detailed in the bible
1. Judas regretted his action of betraying Jesus to the Jews and Roman
2. He went to return the bribe money that he collected back to the Jews
3. He went to hang himself dead
4. Looks like he was swollen by the time he was found so that his stomach burst when he was cut down.

If you need scriptures, I can give you for each

Jesus (Judas) was shouting on the cross My God my God, why have u forgotten me!! A god doesnt call on himself in heaven to help him on the cross, rather it is man that calls on God for help .

The Bible recorded 2 different ways by which Judas died. That should tell u a lot of things, use ur bible to confirm it....There are 2 conflicting tales on how Judas died.

Most people didn't know Jesus by face, that's why the Romans made a plan to pay someone to identify Jesus for them by kissing him.

Jesus never went to heaven, He used the same levitation trick that Chris Angel does every other day to fool the people who witnessed his ascension.

Death by crucifixion takes 4 - 7 days, but the man on the cross died after a few hours, there was a plan to make sure that the Romans never got to find out that the man on the cross wasn't Jesus. So Jesus and his disciples paid a soldier to stab the man on the cross so that he won't die because of the crucifixion which would have taken up to 1 week and thus nobody found out that it wasn't Jesus on the cross.











Read up the whole episode from before Jesus's arrest till his death, U will see a lot of evidence about the facts I talked about.

Empiree:
okay, now I seen your confusion. You believe God is powerful and can do anything, right?. If God is powerful, is He not powerful enough to cloud Jesus' killers and raise him up?. He created the universe. He created the sky without anything holding it up. Why is He not capable of raising Jesus to Himself however He wanted?. Unless you want to tell me now that God is not that powerful. How God lifted Jesus or what really happened was never a big matter of concern to us.




Yes, Jesus' death is in the future. When Jesus was born according to Quran, he spoke in his cradle: ".... Peace be upon me the day I was born and the day I die"

Clearly, if someone is nailed on the cross, what do you call that?. Is that peaceful death?. That's violent death. To make the matter worse, CHRISTIANs continue to carry the cross to indicate how their God was violently killed.

According to CHRISTIANITY, Jesus was killed by Jews. My question to you is, if Jesus was killed, is killing not violent?. They nailed his hands and legs on the cross. They put on his head crown of thorns indicating his violent ending. This is contrary to Jesus statement that he would die peacefully. Therefore, he must return and later die in peace after he breaks the cross (symbolising end of CHRISTIANITY) and kill the pigs.

So we have ayah in sura 43:61 indicating his return


And he ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)] shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection) [i.e. 'Iesa's (Jesus) descent on the earth] . Therefore have no doubt concerning it (i.e. the Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allah) (i.e. be obedient to Allah and do what He orders you to do, O mankind)! This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah and to His Paradise).

Also Quran tells us in one Ayah comparing sleep and death. It says when Allah takes soul while we asleep, those who wake up the following day is because Allah returns their soul until appointed time. Those who did not wake up and die in their sleep is because God took their soul. This is exactly how to discribe incident of Jesus because the same word is used "maut"



Quran already debunked this in the previous verse I quoted.

It says those who were present there were full of doubts and conjectures. This makes your claim irrelevant. Plus this narration of yours about witnesses can not be verified due to credibility of Bible and eyewitnesses. Quran speaks

"And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it." Sura 4:157

To further confirm doubts of the eyewitnesses you relied on, we seen their confusion in the narrations how Jesus was hanged on the cross. If they were not in doubt they should all give us one account how Jesus was hanged (see attachment)

Mark and Luke's accounts of crucifixion are different.



sorry to disappoint you. Quran isn't talking about Bible according to John, Mathew, Mark and Luke. It is only talking about scripture given to Jesus. Chronological Gospels are according to their writers not Jesus. This refutes you in a very simple way.

Now Empiree is vexed..

Empiree:
you need to talk harder. Whatever happened was not the focus of Quran. What quran needed was that Jesus was not kill it crucified. This is sufficient for us. My question which both of you evaded was, who killed Jesus and who led to his capture?.

We as musings are not interested in supertition that too place. God tells us he was not killed he was not crucified. We don't need witnesses stories. As I said before, Quran goes further to say witnesses were in doubt and they have no knowledge of what actually happened.

Again, this is sufficient for us. We believe in what had been revealed to us. If witnesses were sure they would give you two different account if his crucifixion.

Once again, Jesus said he would die in peace but his "death" according to CHRISTIANITY was very violent one. "Being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground” (Luke 22:44, emphasis added). Subsequently He is arrested, beaten, and executed in grotesque and humiliating fashion. The Roman system of crucifixion had been finely tuned to produce the maximum of pain. In fact, the word excruciating (literally, “out of the cross”) had to be invented to fully codify its horror.

If Mark and Luke accounts were recorded separately, didn't they get their information from the same source (s) eyewitnesses?.

This means eyewitnesses accounts were false as Quran rightly said. Too much holes in your Bible.

Ma sha Allah.

PrecisionFx:


Jesus (Judas) was shouting on the cross My God my God, why have u forgotten me!! A god doesnt call on himself in heaven to help him on the cross, rather it is man that calls on God for help .

The Bible recorded 2 different ways by which Judas died. That should tell u a lot of things, use ur bible to confirm it....There are 2 conflicting tales on how Judas died.

Most people didn't know Jesus by face, that's why the Romans made a plan to pay someone to identify Jesus for them by kissing him.

Jesus never went to heaven, He used the same levitation trick that Chris Angel does every other day to fool the people who witnessed his ascension.

Death by crucifixion takes 4 - 7 days, but the man on the cross died after a few hours, there was a plan to make sure that the Romans never got to find out that the man on the cross wasn't Jesus. So Jesus and his disciples paid a soldier to stab the man on the cross so that he won't die because of the crucifixion which would have taken up to 1 week and thus nobody found out that it wasn't Jesus on the cross.











Read up the whole episode from before Jesus's arrest till his death, U will see a lot of evidence about the facts I talked about.

Hmm, interesting theory.

I dey laugh in yoruba here. Imagine Shadeyinka and sagenaija requesting logical explanations on how Allah took Jesus to heaven; as if every story in religion is logical.

shadeyinka:
The most important creed in the Christian faith is that Jesus was Crucified, Died, was Buried and Rose from the death on the third day. It is impossible to be a Christian if an iota of the above is denied. Its like saying can one be a muslim and yet deny either the oneness of Allah or that Mohammed is the prophet of allah.

Salvation itself is impossible without the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus: for Jesus is the sacrifice and the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

If the Qur'an contradicts the Bible on this important issue, it is either
1. The Source of the Bible and the Qur'an is completely different (Allah is different from Jehovah)
2. One of the two books is presenting a deliberate Falsehood and Misinformation that leads people to Hell fire.

Qur’an, 4:157-158
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not—nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”

Muslims would rather dodge discussions on the claim of the Qur'an that
1. Jesus wasnt killed
2. Jesus wasnt Crucified
3. Jesus was taken bodily to God in heaven


This is because every excuse they have thought of raises extremely difficult issues which they would rather sweep under the carpet.

Muslims can be divided into two broad groups according to their understanding of this problem
1. The Ahmadias:
The Ahmadias are the Muslims equivalent of the Christians Jehovahs witness.
In clear contradiction of what the Qur'an states, the Ahmadias tried to solve the by enacting the swoon theory. In the swoon theory, Jesus was actually CRUCIFIED but he didnt die: he fainted on the cross. In addition they try to redefine the words crucifixion to mean death rather than a means of causing death.

Then a conspiracy theory was built on the fact that Pilate conspired with the soldiers not to kill Jesus but give an appearance of an execution. That Jesus was put in a cool tomb where he was nursed to health and traveled to india to raise a family. In fact, the Ahmadias have a grave for Jesus invented to prove this.
2. The Traditional Muslims:
This includes almost all other Muslim sects. They all agree with the Qur'an that Jesus wasnt Crucified at all BUT their "replacement/substitution theory" for resolving the controversy and it comes in two flavours
a. Contemporary Muslims:
These ones has seen the logical fallacies in every form of arguments that has been presented by Muslims so that their stance is simply: "Allah knows the best".

With this phrase, they bury their heads in the sand like an ostrich pretending that the problems can go away when the phrase is repeated well often and again an again.
b. Old school Muslims:
These ones goes with the numerous hadiths and tefsirs and thus come to various contradictions even against the supposed nature of Allah.

Some of their conclusions include:
1. Jesus was substituted with Judas
2. One of Jesus's disciples voluntarily submitted himself to die on the cross for Him
3. Someone on the street was confused for Jesus and Crucified in His stead.
4. Allah manufactured someone who was Crucified in the place of Christ.

In all the cases above, Jesus was smuggled bodily to heaven. He will come back to the earth at the end time to kill a one eyed monster call Al Daajjal and he will convert all Christians to muslims (break the crosses) after killing all the Jews(kill the pigs).


Muslims Dodge answering simple obvious question from their theories because it exposes the lack of common logical sense in the position of the Qur'an.

For instance can Muslims explain how Jesus was taken to heaven?
Was it secretly or in the presence of some of the disciples?

They will surely dodge this among others questions like plague!



Rashduct4luv
Empiree

Dodged Thread:
https://www.nairaland.com/5142675/jesus-didnt-die-he-wasnt


https://www.nairaland.com/5142675/jesus-didnt-die-he-wasnt

Your Questions:

For instance can Muslims explain how Jesus was taken to heaven?
Was it secretly or in the presence of some of the disciples?

Of what importance to you is how Elijah was taken to heaven? Whether he walked in air or na chariot carry am? To answer this "We are not given the details of how he was taken up to heaven."

And i see no importance in telling you that he was taken up whether in the presence of all his disciples or not! What point are you trying to establish here?

Clap for yourself!

PrecisionFx:


Jesus (Judas) was shouting on the cross My God my God, why have u forgotten me!! A god doesnt call on himself in heaven to help him on the cross, rather it is man that calls on God for help .

Read the passage Jesus was directing us to as prophesied by David in the Psalms.

Psalm 22[a]
For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him. ”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.

What a coincidence that David wrote this about the Messiah almost 2000 years before Jesus.

PrecisionFx:

The Bible recorded 2 different ways by which Judas died. That should tell u a lot of things, use ur bible to confirm it....There are 2 conflicting tales on how Judas died.

Most people didn't know Jesus by face, that's why the Romans made a plan to pay someone to identify Jesus for them by kissing him.

What was detailed in the bible
1. Judas regretted his action of betraying Jesus to the Jews and Roman
2. He went to return the bribe money that he collected back to the Jews
3. He went to hang himself dead Matthew 27:1–10
4. Looks like he was swollen by the time he was found so that his stomach burst when he was cut down. Acts 1:16-19

What is contradictory in Judas hung himself and fell with his bowels bursting open?

PrecisionFx:

Jesus never went to heaven, He used the same levitation trick that Chris Angel does every other day to fool the people who witnessed his ascension.

Unbelievable!
So you are willing to contradict even the direct words of Allah in the Qur'an to justify your conspiracy theory?

Qur'an 4:157-158
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
4:158
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

So, please how did Allah raise Jesus UP to Himself?

I presume you are Ahmadia: swoon theory modified!

PrecisionFx:

Death by crucifixion takes 4 - 7 days, but the man on the cross died after a few hours, there was a plan to make sure that the Romans never got to find out that the man on the cross wasn't Jesus. So Jesus and his disciples paid a soldier to stab the man on the cross so that he won't die because of the crucifixion which would have taken up to 1 week and thus nobody found out that it wasn't Jesus on the cross.

You amaze me with your ignorance on Crucifixion!
Why do you think the Romans sometimes break the knee of the Crucified person: to increase the pain?

See how you contradict yourself even within the same post. You said Jesus wasn't Crucified: it was Judas! Now the Jesus who wasn't Crucified bribed the soldiers not to let him die by Crucifixion!!!!?
Are you making any sense?

The legs of Jesus wasn't broken because to the surprise of the Roman soldier, Jesus was already dead hence in confirmation, he thrust a spear into Jesus side.

How can you account for the fact that
1. Mary the Mother of Jesus was at the cross
2. John the close disciple of Jesus was at the Cross
3. Jesus spoke to both Mary and John

Have people died from a boxing match before? How many days did it take? What an argument.

So the man on the cross wasn't Jesus!?

So, how come Jesus never told His mother that "..don't mind them o! I AM ALIVE!!"

PrecisionFx:

Read up the whole episode from before Jesus's arrest till his death, U will see a lot of evidence about the facts I talked about.

You cannot build a conspiracy theory over falsehood and still expect it to stand.

In your own version, Jesus wasn't Crucified!
1. Then, where did he go?
2. How come not even one of His disciples knew where he went?
3. How come the frightened disciples were no more afraid to die after they claimed they saw the resurrected Christ?
4. Can you see the righteousness of Allah who conspired to confuse the Christians? (It would have been understandable if Allah confused both the Jews and the Romans but not the Christians!)

A good answer to these questions will help you see which version is trustworthy. But I am sure that you would avoid answering them

Rashduct4luv:


Your Questions:

For instance can Muslims explain how Jesus was taken to heaven?
Was it secretly or in the presence of some of the disciples?

Of what importance to you is how Elijah was taken to heaven? Whether he walked in air or na chariot carry am? To answer this "We are not given the details of how he was taken up to heaven."

And i see no importance in telling you that he was taken up whether in the presence of all his disciples or not! What point are you trying to establish here?

It is very important Sir.

There are just two possibilities
1. Jesus was taken to heaven in secret!
It will explain why the disciples manufactured stories about the death of Jesus (since they really didn't know what happened to Him)
But it raises up greater problems which Ghulam didn't solve before his death
1. It shows that Allah himself fooled the Christians including all the disciples and the Mother of Jesus in addition to the Jews/Romans.
It makes sense if Allah fooled the Jews/Romans but the righteousness of Allah is put into question if Christians were deceived into believing a lie propounded by Allah
2. The disciples claimed that they saw the resurrected Christ and a great transformation of their character was an evidence to corroborate this. Of the 12 apostles, only one died a natural death. The others died very violent deaths because they saw the risen Christ.
3. If Allah took Jesus to himself, was it before the Crucifixion or after?
For the bible spoke of how Jesus was taken to heaven in the presence of almost 120 disciples.
4. If the disciples knew Jesus was taken up to heaven before His Crucifixion, why would they manufacture that which is anti-hero for their Master? Is it not easier to make jest of the Jews about the fact that Jesus escaped from their hand?

My dear, it is so important!

The TRUTH with never breakdown under questioning!
Do you agree with this statement?

shadeyinka:

It is very important Sir.

There are just two possibilities
1. Jesus was taken to heaven in secret!
It will explain why the disciples manufactured stories about the death of Jesus (since they really didn't know what happened to Him)
But it raises up greater problems which Ghulam didn't solve before his death
1. It shows that Allah himself fooled the Christians including all the disciples and the Mother of Jesus in addition to the Jews/Romans.
It makes sense if Allah fooled the Jews/Romans but the righteousness of Allah is put into question if Christians were deceived into believing a lie propounded by Allah
2. The disciples claimed that they saw the resurrected Christ and a great transformation of their character was an evidence to corroborate this. Of the 12 apostles, only one died a natural death. The others died very violent deaths because they saw the risen Christ.
3. If Allah took Jesus to himself, was it before the Crucifixion or after?
For the bible spoke of how Jesus was taken to heaven in the presence of almost 120 disciples.
4. If the disciples knew Jesus was taken up to heaven before His Crucifixion, why would they manufacture that which is anti-hero for their Master? Is it not easier to make jest of the Jews about the fact that Jesus escaped from their hand?

My dear, it is so important!

The TRUTH with never breakdown under questioning!
Do you agree with this statement?

firstly, who among the disciples was/were present when Jesus was crucified?

Rashduct4luv:


firstly, who among the disciples was/were present when Jesus was crucified?

John the Disciple of Jesus was present.
Jesus even handed over Mary his mother to him for caring. Mary lived with John until she died

John 19:25-27
"25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, 'Dear woman, here is your son,' 27 and to the disciple, 'Here is your mother.' From that time on, this disciple took her into his home."

aadoiza:

Now Empir.ee is vexed..

lol... Yes, now..I was reluctant to say anything to him knowing how these CHRISTIANs behave. So he took that as weakness on my side so I gave him his dose.

Empiree:
lol... Yes, now..I was reluctant to say anything to him knowing how these CHRISTIANs behave. So he took that as weakness on my side so I gave him his dose.

A deserved dose. And, of course, he had coming.

Empiree:
lol... Yes, now..I was reluctant to say anything to him knowing how these CHRISTIANs behave. So he took that as weakness on my side so I gave him his dose.

Your Vexation didn't actually communicated anything meaningful. You must be conscious of the thousands of intelligent persons reading through.


The Question the Op was asking is if you actually trust the genuity of your Book then everything must be explained when it tries to give a Stand point to other people's faith.

Your book came 600years plus after Jesus's death and should actually have better statements than the one it tried to change.


The Question OP is asking if not answered makes your book another book of Faith but not necessarily of Truth.

For Truth is Verifiable.

That you strongly Beleive in your book dosnt make it a Truthful book, there other religion with their sacred books.

If your Faith Claims to carry truth, then it should be verified.

As a Muslim one should be truthful to ask how Muhammad, gave a truth to a tribe after 600 years and that's the best factual statement and it dosnt have any commentaries before him to back him up or History.


This is what the OP is challenging, is like a Ghanaian telling the story of OBA OF Benin.


Not everybody is interested in the Faith, but definitely everybody wants to know the Truth.

Was Muhammad the Founder of Islam Faith, Yes, that's a Truth even though am not interested in serving Muhammad god, is Jesus the Author and finisher of Christian faith, Yes.


We are talking of Truth that's Verifiable. If you can't defend a Truth. Just keep mute.

Who are you?. Another mouthpiece?. He asked irrelevant question. Question he asked was not important to Muslims one bit. He claimed that there were eyewitnesses accounts of how his God was lifted up. But our Book made it clear that their so called eyewitnesses had no certain knowledge what actually happened. Upon looking in their Bible we realized our Book was saying the truth bcuz according to Gospels of Mark and Luke, they provided contradictory reports which validated what Qur'an said.


Before you jumped the gun you should have realized I already answered him. Now since you wanted to be their mouthpiece maybe you can help them?.

And who told you I was vexed?. You conclusion was wrong

nutarious:



Your Vexation didn't actually communicated anything meaningful. You must be conscious of the thousands of intelligent persons reading through.


The Question the Op was asking is if you actually trust the genuity of your Book then everything must be explained when it tries to give a Stand point to other people's faith.

Your book came 600years plus after Jesus's death and should actually have better statements than the one it tried to change.


The Question OP is asking if not answered makes your book another book of Faith but not necessarily of Truth.

For Truth is Verifiable.

That you strongly Beleive in your book dosnt make it a Truthful book, there other religion with their sacred books.

If your Faith Claims to carry truth, then it should be verified.

aadoiza:
I dey laugh in yoruba here. Imagine Shadeyinka and sagenaija requesting logical explanations on how Allah took Jesus to heaven; as if every story in religion is logical.

It is this failure of majority of you Moslems to REASON logically that has made you accept accept 7th century Arabian tales as a collection from God.

Even the compilers never saw it fit to arrange it in an orderly way such that the first revelation to Mohamed is almost toward the end of the book and each chapter contains unrelated stories and statements.

A book that claims to make things plain but still ends up making the reader more confused is not what any objective mind will accept as having any divine validity.

If your god reasons upside down then tell us. Maybe then it will be easy for us to appreciate where he is coming from. If your CLEAR book requires us to suspend our brains then we say 'hold in to it'. We will stick to our more logical Bible.

When every question is met with all kinds of excuses then don't you think something is wrong with that religion?

sagenaija:

It is this failure of majority of you Moslems to REASON logically that has made you accept accept 7th century Arabian tales as a collection from God.

at least our Book was dated "7th century" as you said. But yours had no date.


Bible ghost writers had to rewrite their famous King James in 1604 and completed as well as published it in 1611 centuries after Jesus. And you want me to believe their stories?.

You funny

sagenaija:

It is this failure of majority of you Moslems to REASON logically that has made you accept accept 7th century Arabian tales as a collection from God.

Even the compilers never saw it fit to arrange it in an orderly way such that the first revelation to Mohamed is almost toward the end of the book and each chapter contains unrelated stories and statements.

A book that claims to make things plain but still ends up making the reader more confused is not what any objective mind will accept as having any divine validity.

If your god reasons upside down then tell us. Maybe then it will be easy for us to appreciate where he is coming from. If your CLEAR book requires us to suspend our brains then we say 'hold in to it'. We will stick to our more logical Bible.

When every question is met with all kinds of excuses then don't you think something is wrong with that religion?

I'm gobsmacked at your awfully shabby vitriolic comment on Allah. Why are you lot, Christians, so hate driven? Are hypocrisy and comptempt biblical commandments? Kila gbe, kile ju. You're demanding for logical explanations on divine matters. I thought you Christians were always chirping "God works in mysterious ways." Why can't you have this miracle that Allah did subsumed under the omnipotence and the divine mysteries of God. Like Allah says the witnesses were full of conjectures. Why are Mark's and Luke's accounts almost contradictory? If Jesus's cross is the blueprint of crucifix, which of the modern crucifixes is the real McCoy? All I see are conjectures upon conjectures.

If you're so bloody sure of your logical bible, why don't you give us the logical explanation of Jesus's birth from the Bible.

Empiree:
at least our Book was dated "7th century" as you said. But yours had no date.


Bible ghost writers had to rewrite their famous King James in 1604 and completed as well as published it in 1611 centuries after Jesus. And you want me to believe their stories?.

You funny

These people are hypocritically funny, I swear.

aadoiza:

These people are hypocritically funny, I swear.

As far as they are concerned, the Bible is English king James Bible.

Most Muslims don't even know that they have more than 60 English translations of the Arabic Qur'an.

aadoiza:


I'm gobsmacked at your awfully shabby vitriolic comment on Allah. Why are you lot, Christians, so hate driven? Are hypocrisy and comptempt biblical commandments? Kila gbe, kile ju. You're demanding for logical explanations on divine matters. I thought you Christians were always chirping "God works in mysterious ways." Why can't you have this miracle that Allah did subsumed under the omnipotence and the divine mysteries of God. Like Allah says the witnesses were full of conjectures. Why are Mark's and Luke's accounts almost contradictory? If Jesus's cross is the blueprint of crucifix, which of the modern crucifixes is the real McCoy? All I see are conjectures upon conjectures.

If you're so bloody sure of your logical bible, why don't you give us the logical explanation of Jesus's birth from the Bible.

Sorry for how you feel about comments here.

The issue at stake is that Both Christians and Muslims believe that
1. God has power to do anything
2. Jesus son of Mary had no earthly father
3. There was an attempt by the Jews to Crucify Him

The question is that,
Allah is powerful enough to remove Jesus from the earth if that is what was required
BUT
Muslims say "Jesus was taken bodily to God in Heaven"
And as Christians, the question was
1. Was it in the presence of some of Jesus disciples or in secret?

Even if Allah would have done a miracle, it wouldn't exclude either of these two possibilities.

THE TRUTH IS NEVER AFRAID OF QUESTIONING. For questions actually validate the truth.

Ore wa!

aadoiza:


I'm gobsmacked at your awfully shabby vitriolic comment on Allah. Why are you lot, Christians, so hate driven? Are hypocrisy and comptempt biblical commandments? Kila gbe, kile ju. You're demanding for logical explanations on divine matters. I thought you Christians were always chirping "God works in mysterious ways." Why can't you have this miracle that Allah did subsumed under the omnipotence and the divine mysteries of God. Like Allah says the witnesses were full of conjectures. Why are Mark's and Luke's accounts almost contradictory? If Jesus's cross is the blueprint of crucifix, which of the modern crucifixes is the real McCoy? All I see are conjectures upon conjectures.

If you're so bloody sure of your logical bible, why don't you give us the logical explanation of Jesus's birth from the Bible.

Sorry for how you feel about comments here.

The issue at stake is that Both Christians and Muslims believe that
1. God has power to do anything
2. Jesus son of Mary had no earthly father
3. There was an attempt by the Jews to Crucify Him

The question is that,
Allah is powerful enough to remove Jesus from the earth if that is what was required
BUT
Muslims say "Jesus was taken bodily to God in Heaven"
And as Christians, the question was
1. Was it in the presence of some of Jesus disciples or in secret?

Even if Allah would have done a miracle, it wouldn't exclude either of these two possibilities.

THE TRUTH IS NEVER AFRAID OF QUESTIONING. For questions actually validate the truth.

shadeyinka:
Ore wa!

Sorry for how you feel about comments here.

The issue at stake is that Both Christians and Muslims believe that
1. God has power to do anything
2. Jesus son of Mary had no earthly father
3. There was an attempt by the Jews to Crucify Him

what are you saying?. Since my childhood christians have always held the believe that Jews killed Jesus and Jews confirmed this. This is another 1 mins video where they boast about killing Jesus. These are Jewish settlers in palestine


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6dTDbDpAPc

Pay attention to that Jewish boy. Listen to him carefully and compare his ugly statements with Quran


"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-" Quran 4:157

First off I would like to know the biblical accounts of Jesus's crusifixtion.
A link or reference would do.
But a simple explanation is we(Muslims) believe in the Qur'an and site it our reference (which you guys don't accept or believe in) and you(Christians) believe in the Bible and site it as your reference (which we believe in, but don't think of it as accurate or untempered). With this fact.
This discussion is going to go nowhere and achieve nothing. This is a subject we will never agree upon and will never change the minds of the other on.
But who says we can't have an aimless discussion.

Empiree:
what are you saying?. Since my childhood christians have always held the believe that Jews killed Jesus and Jews confirmed this. This is another 1 mins video where they boast about killing Jesus. These are Jewish settlers in palestine


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6dTDbDpAPc

Pay attention to that Jewish boy. Listen to him carefully and compare his ugly statements with Quran


"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-" Quran 4:157

I chose my words carefully:
The there were attempts to Crucify Jesus!
Muslims agree with the fact that the attempt did not succeed!
Christians agree that the attempt was successful!

You know that I have not even attempted to debunk the Qur'an. I only asked the question

If Jesus was taken up to heaven, was it in secrecy or in the presence of a few of the disciples?


You have not answered the question instead you are using evasive technique to avoid answering the question.

The Truth thrives on Questioning!

shadeyinka:
I chose my words carefully:
The there were attempts to Crucify Jesus!
Muslims agree with the fact that the attempt did not succeed!
Christians agree that the attempt was successful!

who attempted to kill him?. Just say it..say it

You know that I have not even attempted to debunk the Qur'an. I only asked the question

If Jesus was taken up to heaven, was it in secrecy or in the presence of a few of the disciples?


You have not answered the question instead you are using evasive technique to avoid answering the question.

The Truth thrives on Questioning!

It means you have not been paying close attention to my posts and the other brother said similar. You not paying attention. This is probably the reason you failed to convert to islam in your 200L (bcuz you did not read or listen). Here is Qwuran verse again. Pay attention please


"And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts.They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]:



See highlighted indicates some people were around but they had no knowledge what really happened. This is why accounts of Mark and Luke were mere cooked up stories about eyewitnesses. These contradictions are clear. This was the reason i attached pictures of crucifiction which differ from each other. So your question was answered. If you are not satisfied, i owe you no explanation.

IMAliyu:
First off I would like to know the biblical accounts of Jesus's crusifixtion.
A link or reference would do.
But a simple explanation is we(Muslims) believe in the Qur'an and site it our reference (which you guys don't accept or believe in) and you(Christians) believe in the Bible and site it as your reference (which we believe in, but don't think of it as accurate or untempered). With this fact.
This discussion is going to go nowhere and achieve nothing. This is a subject we will never agree upon and will never change the minds of the other on.
But who says we can't have an aimless discussion.

Thanks for your input!

You know what usually brings people to the Court of law?
It is two opposing and contradicting versions of what is perceived as the truth by both parties.

The purpose of the judicial system is to find out who is speaking the Full TRUTH and who is lying. This is done by systematically asking them both relevant Questions which finally reveals who is speaking the exact truth. No amount of repetition of I am not guilty will change anything when the questioning shows the opposite.

The crux of the matter is this:

Christians say they saw Jesus being bodily taken to heaven AFTER the Crucifixion.
Muslims says Jesus being bodily taken to heaven BEFORE the Crucifixion.

Based on this, we present a little question to Muslims!

Was Jesus taken to heaven by Allah secretly or in the presence of a few of His disciples?

The Question is very easy, two options as there cannot be another option.


Here is the summary of what the Bible teaches about the Crucifixion of Jesus

Christians Position:
1. Jesus was betrayed and Arrested
2. Jesus was Tried in the courts
3. He was found worthy of death even when not Guilty
4. He was crucified in-between two criminals
5. There were witnesses to his crucifixion
6. His knee bones were not broken because he was already dead
7. A spear was thrust into his side (ribs) to confirm his death.
8. His corpse was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea
9. On the third day he resurrected
10. He showed Himself to His disciples over a period of 40 days explaining to them why Christ must die
11. He asked the disciples to farther themselves at Galilee for His final meeting with them
12. At Galilee, Jesus was taken up to heaven in the presence of the Disciples

Empiree:
who attempted to kill him?. Just say it..say it




It means you have not been paying close attention to my posts and the other brother said similar. You not paying attention. This is probably the reason you failed to convert to islam in your 200L (bcuz you did not read or listen). Here is Qwuran verse again. Pay attention please


"And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts.They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]:



See highlighted indicates some people were around but they had no knowledge what really happened. This is why accounts of Mark and Luke were mere cooked up stories about eyewitnesses. These contradictions are clear. This was the reason i attached pictures of crucifiction which differ from each other. So your question was answered. If you are not satisfied, i owe you no explanation.

Please check the bolded again!

Was the bolded refering to
1. The taking of Christ to Allah in heaven OR
2. The Crucifixion of Jesus

It cannot logically be the two at the same time. For a person cannot be at the taking to heaven of Jesus AND still be in his crucifixion.

If Jesus was taken to heaven before the Crucifixion, it must be in the presence of the disciples (but they didn't know)
If Jesus was taken to heaven at his crucifixion then it must be in the presence of the Jews, Romans and maybe a few disciples

Please clarify

shadeyinka:


Please check the bolded again!

Was the bolded refering to
1. The taking of Christ to Allah in heaven OR
2. The Crucifixion of Jesus

It cannot logically be the two at the same time. For a person cannot be at the taking to heaven of Jesus AND still be in his crucifixion.

If Jesus was taken to heaven before the Crucifixion, it must be in the presence of the disciples (but they didn't know)
If Jesus was taken to heaven at his crucifixion then it must be in the presence of the Jews, Romans and maybe a few disciples

Please clarify

See why i was reluctant yesterday?. I sensed it would lead to recycled questions. Now you have shifted question. This is gonna be endless discussion. Again, they differed about what really took place (i:e the state of Jesus) about the entire incident. The verse is clear to us. If you find it confusing to you, i am sorry, i don't think i can give you more explanation.

However, to be fair to you, I have read Ahmadiyya's view before on this incident. But one thing is clear about all muslims is that Jesus was not killed nor crucified. No muslims disputed this. So on Ahmadiyya, they said Jesus was put on the cross, nailed and all that but after people left, Allah rescued him. They said crucifixion is only proven if death occured. Jews however in their view are sure that the one on the cross died right before their eyes which is a proof that he could not have been messiah sent by God bcuz according to their scripture, Messiah would bring Jerusalem glory back. So therefore, i reject Ahmadiyya's view even though they believed he was not killed or crucified. But their theory is in grey area.

Quran however say he was not killed, he was not crucified. Which means he was not on the cross at all. Let's look up definition of crucifixion


* the execution of a person by nailing or binding them to a cross.

* the killing of Jesus Christ by crucifixion.



By the definition, nailling on the cross is crucifixion. Therefore majority of the muslims are correct that Jesus was not even on the cross. This is verse of Quran again



".... but they killed him not, nor crucified him,..... but it appeared so to them,....."