₦airaland Forum

themonk:
Which of these two should go against your nature?

1) Forgiving and forgetting someone’s sins without repercussion.

2) Sending your son to die on the cross in a horrendous manner so you can forgive humans.

Is this even a question?

Human sacrifice that incurred more sins from those who sacrificed Jesus. I mean this is a God who encouraged slavery in this book you speak of, encourage some tribes of humans to go and kill other tribes even though he supposedly created both of them but he loved one more, this is unjust isn’t it? The Bible cannot be a moral compass, I mean Christians that have the guts to even argue irk me. I don’t like to argue with people about religion but I’m so concerned when people try to convince others it is a moral compass or a coherent, informative and infallible book of justice. Stick to your religion and just believe that things you see there you will get to understand later. Except you have any esoteric knowledge about the Bible or you read another bible different from the one I read or you just ignore the holes like most people do please just have faith that what you believe will be just and truthful and at the appointed time God will reveal everything to you.

Yes, miracles and divine manifestations work through the Bible but it also worked through ancient religions. In Igbo land they where bad and good native doctors and in Christianity there are pastors that kill their enemies and even neighbors and pastors that don’t. Some might argue that these pastors are possessed by evil spirits lol, these people haven’t read the Old Testament. The thing is if you are smart enough this should tell you that this thing is deeper than you can imagine. Go out and do research and compare what you believe with reality, theoretical and arm-chair Bible arguments don’t work.

All my life I’ve always questioned why things happen and try to compare what happens with theories the Bible proposed and it has never matched up. I am not saying the Bible is wrong, I’m just saying I’ve not found any reason for it to be right. Please let this not discourage you from being a christian, just don’t be a sheep. If you are stimulated by your spirit to ask questions ask them, if not please don’t, maybe it’s your destiny to take the blue pill and not the red one.

Roycemadeit:
Incredible but wait.
Who is defining what sin is?

There's nothing like sin, what there is, is that which doesn't serve our highest interest.
And yet again every religion strongly believe theirs is the only way to God.
Separatism breeds Chaos.
God's wish is for us to come to this understanding that you and I are one, that we are not separate but one, whatsoever I do, should be in best thought of us.

midnighter:
Sins need to be punished. If you understand God as much as you claim to, you should understand that its against His nature to abide with sin. Forgiveness is not the point. He can forgive you but He still needs the sin to be paid for. Are you saying that your parents simply "forgave" you all the time when you were growing up, with no consequences?

You shouldnt use emotive language like "conditional forgiveness" and "revenge" to try to distract away from the point. God is a just god and feels righteous anger against sin and iniquity.

Your second paragraph is not closely connected enough with what we were discussing to warrant a response from me unless you can explain how it is relevant. I did not deny the existence of errors or inconsistencies in my previous post so I dont understand what you wrote there.

DeepSight:
Profound, incisive, brilliant at once and also poetic.

Two questions strike me here and please oblige me -

1. What informs your reference to God in the feminine.

To think God is one thing, then you will think God is not another. And that would be a large mistake. God is everything.

DeepSight:
2. Please can you share your background in terms of philosophy and what writings, if any, have influenced your current take on the meaning of life. Also if you belong to any group or spiritual/ philosophical persuasion.

DeepSight:
In terms of the existence of souls, I would stretch that further - we are probably talking not just zillions of years - but such an unquantifiable stretch of time that is beyond the capacity of the mortal mind to grasp.

This is with the proviso though, that time is not an illusion - and it just very well might be. Indeed, almost certainly is.

If you buy a device and the manual is filled with errors and items inconsistent with the device you've purchased, would you be convinced that it's the manufacturer that wrote the manual? Anyone without sound knowledge of the product could have sneaked the manual into the package. Such is the case of the bible. Why would you call a book with errors was inspired by God. God is not the author of confusion

DeepSight:
Once I saw this post, i recognized at once that someone with a more profound grasp of life than usual was speaking. This was heart warming, for it is rare to see, within the dross and dim spectrum of light available in most of the world today. So thank you.

However as you have caught my interest, pardon me as I will have a few questions. I'll start with what you have hinted at up there - namely - moral relativism/ subjectivity. Let me say straight away that I totally "get" moral subjectivity - and moral relativism (both are very close precepts but not quite the same). Nevertheless when pressed on this subject I have mostly found myself standing with objective moral values. Indeed, years ago, i have had marathon debates on this forum on this subject. In those discussions, I dont think I truly let my real position on to my co-discussants - because in my view they had taken far too extreme and therefore far too absurd a position in favour of moral subjectivism/ moral relativism such that if one were to abide with their propositions, it would never be possible to condemn any deed in this world - no matter how grisly, how abominable, how disgusting or how evidently, manifestly and patently against the flow of life and nature such a deed was.

This extremity is what led me to argue objective moral standards in opposition and my question to you is therefore - to what extent would you push the moral subjectivism / moral relativism evident in your post. Do you also espouse it to such a degree that it becomes impossible to ever say of any deed - "this was clearly wrong or evil" - thereby taking us into a blurry moral existence which frankly if ever given legal credence to - would result not just in anarchy but probably even the expedited extinction of our species.

That is my question.

However because of the enlightenment with which you have spoken, and the poetry evident in your pen (which is a weakness for me) I will share with you ahead that I am not a strict moral objectivist in truth, regardless of how ardently I argued that position in the past. I am not a religious person - I subscribe to no religion - for most of my time of this forum I was known as a deist (and suspect I introduced Deism here) - today I would prefer to say that I am agnostic - whilst I believe in the existence of a source, I believe it is beyond remote and thus unknowable. On the question of morality, I believe in certain secular objective moral standards - with the proviso that every moral action has a context and a situation - which must be taken into account. Something I would perhaps call situational or contextual morality.

What say ye, good sir?

k4kenny:
We were created with imperfect.

k4kenny:
We were created with imperfect. It's on our natural disposition to falter once in a while. But God is kind, merciful, forgiving and accepts sincere repentance. All you need to do is repent and try as hard as possible not to fall into that sin again. Even if you do, there's still room for repentance as long as you're alive and sincere in your intention.

Yes, my parents and people I've offended have forgiven my offences as I have also forgiven those who offended without attaching any conditions or punishment. Anyone who's forgiveness is based on punishment or retribution is nothing but a vindicated and horrible person. Are you?

If you buy a device and the manual is filled with errors and items inconsistent with the device you've purchased, would you be convinced that it's the manufacturer that wrote the manual? Anyone without sound knowledge of the product could have sneaked the manual into the package. Such is the case of the bible. Why would you call a book with errors was inspired by God. God is not the author of confusion.

Roycemadeit:
I shared most of all I'd said here from one of the books I'd read overtime in my quest for more insight on what life is. I believe all your questions would be answered when you go through its pages.

I am not subjected to say anything is wrong or right. All is all in the process of becoming Who We Are.

midnighter:
Sins need to be punished. If you understand God as much as you claim to, you should understand that its against His nature to abide with sin. Forgiveness is not the point. He can forgive you but He still needs the sin to be paid for. Are you saying that your parents simply "forgave" you all the time when you were growing up, with no consequences?

You shouldnt use emotive language like "conditional forgiveness" and "revenge" to try to distract away from the point. God is a just god and feels righteous anger against sin and iniquity.

Your second paragraph is not closely connected enough with what we were discussing to warrant a response from me unless you can explain how it is relevant. I did not deny the existence of errors or inconsistencies in my previous post so I dont understand what you wrote there.

k4kenny:
We were created with imperfect. It's on our natural disposition to falter once in a while. But God is kind, merciful, forgiving and accepts sincere repentance. All you need to do is repent and try as hard as possible not to fall into that sin again. Even if you do, there's still room for repentance as long as you're alive and sincere in your intention.

Yes, my parents and people I've offended have forgiven my offences as I have also forgiven those who offended without attaching any conditions or punishment. Anyone who's forgiveness is based on punishment or retribution is nothing but a vindicated and horrible person. Are you?


If you buy a device and the manual is filled with errors and items inconsistent with the device you've purchased, would you be convinced that it's the manufacturer that wrote the manual? Anyone without sound knowledge of the product could have sneaked the manual into the package. Such is the case of the bible. Why would you call a book with errors was inspired by God. God is not the author of confusion.

englishmart:
I'm in the man who came for Deliverance had once gone to heaven. This is interesting

DeepSight:
Is it possible that it is God who requires our forgiveness for subjecting us to a sadistic creative experiment?

themonk:
Which of these two should go against your nature?

1) Forgiving and forgetting someone’s sins without repercussion.

2) Sending your son to die on the cross in a horrendous manner so you can forgive humans.

Is this even a question?

midnighter:
When I used the word "can" I was not referring to his ability or inability to wipe away sins. Of course He CAN wipe away sins. The question is, WOULD He wipe away sins and under what circumstance? When I say "wipe" I mean totally forget them such that there is no punishment for them in the afterlife.

As far as He is a MERCIFUL God, He is also a JUST God. Sins must be accounted for and punished; this is the law. The punishment for sinning against God is death and condemnation to Hell. Who will suffer this punishment, if not us?

They used to spill the blood of a spotless animal as a substitute for a human, to cleanse his sin. The Israelites did that as a temporary measure to cover their sin and experience forgiveness because it was better than nothing. It still doesnt solve the conundrum.

Even before Abrahamic religion reached our shores, the concept of an atoning sacrifice was a huge part of traditional religion. People and animals were regularly sacrificed to the deity of the shrine. Yet it was never enough. Every year, more dead people and animals.

How many dead rams does it take to absolve a sinful human? How many dead humans for the good of the tribe?

We all have to die, because we are all sinful. Does God want punish His beloved creation? Does it please God to send us to Hell? Or would He do absolutely anything , including coming down to Earth in the form of a poor, illegitimate carpenter's son, to stop that from happening?

These are the bases of the problem, and the solution.

themonk:
You are basically saying there are things God cannot do? Which is forgive and erasing repercussions, which is basically what humans do for one another.

If God has to randomly or systematically allow repercussions for sins and cannot forgive man without the spilling of the blood of his son, it means there are physical and universal laws he cannot tamper with and those laws are above him isn’t it?

The idea that God believes he was not created makes him an atheist, imagine a situation another God shows up and say. I’m the one that created this God you guys worship and the universal laws he must obey are under my command.

It is crazy to think that the Bible is infallible, except most things there are figurative, I mean some verses directly contradict the others. Sorry to say but if the Bible is literal, it is complete junk, if it is figurative how does “God” expect us to figure out the true meaning when almost different denominations interpret it differently even when they all claim to be under the same holy ghost.

I have come to understand and experience spiritual and paranormal parts of life but honestly most religions are junk. Come to think of it, A god inspires this book which everyone must follow or they burn in hell regardless of the degree of exposure or familiarity they have with this book, this book copied the concept of a son of God of immaculate conception who came to die for the world from ancient Egyptian religions and has so many contradictions.

In my experience most people who believe the Bible just want it to be true the moment you sincerely read the Bible without bias and with an open mind you see holes in it. I mean starting from modern scientific discoveries up to direct statements and these contradictions or inaccuracies are recurrent.

I know there is a spiritual part of life but most religions are lame attempts to explain it and more likely attempts to enslave people.

emrain:
Religion is not about heaven and hell nor God and Satan.

The stories in religious books are there to help teachers teach children how to survive peacefully and harmoniously with others.

Religion was all about survival. Sadly not anymore.

The modern world believes Abrahamic religions have outlived their usefulness because they've killed God.

There's no longer anything to fear, so many people no longer have reasons to endure the pain of this world. No hope of eternal life. Surprisingly, Slave morality is on a rapid rise in disguise.

Hope has become a fraud.

Empathy is only employed when it's convenient.

The things our fathers were ashamed of are what we celebrate today.

Religious leaders live out their grandiose fantasy at the expense of their sheeple because they've replaced God.

Is atheism the answer? From my experience, I don't think so.

Most atheists in religious countries are usually apathetic and in some cases bitter. This doesn't help anybody, not even the atheists themselves.

The easiest way to save Africans from modern religious manipulators (if you care) is to become very religious and inspire the sheeple in bondage to be more educated and see for themselves that God is dead and it's time to move on.

How do you do this? Become a Sunday school teacher, preacher etc. Intentionally expose your audience to thought-provoking books and materials that helped you come to terms with reality. While at it, always emphasize on empathy and how our collective survival and advancement depends on it.

In the end, liberating Education is what we need. Not apathy, elitism, bitterness, etc that comes with being an atheist in this part of the world.


PS- Good/bad fortune has nothing to do with God. It has everything to do with you and the people you surround yourself with.

themonk:
Human sacrifice that incurred more sins from those who sacrificed Jesus. I mean this is a God who encouraged slavery in this book you speak of, encourage some tribes of humans to go and kill other tribes even though he supposedly created both of them but he loved one more, this is unjust isn’t it? The Bible cannot be a moral compass, I mean Christians that have the guts to even argue irk me. I don’t like to argue with people about religion but I’m so concerned when people try to convince others it is a moral compass or a coherent, informative and infallible book of justice. Stick to your religion and just believe that things you see there you will get to understand later. Except you have any esoteric knowledge about the Bible or you read another bible different from the one I read or you just ignore the holes like most people do please just have faith that what you believe will be just and truthful and at the appointed time God will reveal everything to you.

Yes, miracles and divine manifestations work through the Bible but it also worked through ancient religions. In Igbo land they where bad and good native doctors and in Christianity there are pastors that kill their enemies and even neighbors and pastors that don’t. Some might argue that these pastors are possessed by evil spirits lol, these people haven’t read the Old Testament. The thing is if you are smart enough this should tell you that this thing is deeper than you can imagine. Go out and do research and compare what you believe with reality, theoretical and arm-chair Bible arguments don’t work.

englishmart:
1.Jesus is the only way to God, John 14:6
This invariably means those who don't believe in Jesus have no business in heaven.
Christians worldwide have an estimated population of 2.4billion people
Islam records an estimate of 1.9 billion adherents, Hindu has an estimated 1.1bn adherents. The remaining world's population have their own beliefs which includes atheism.
If Jesus is the only way to God, what happens to those who don't believe in him? Hell? Well, the Bible suggests so.

2. There are a lot of complications and contradictory remarks in the Bible- a verse says don't drink, another says "Drink for your stomach sake", or "Do not drink wherein excess."
Malachi 3:10 a famous Bible verse on tithing speaks about bringing your tithe to the storehouse (church, maybe)
Deuteronomy 14:22-26 says otherwise, it says "you should drink and be merry with your tithe". I'm seriously beginning to doubt the credibility of the Bible. Maybe the translators' fault or God told writers different stories on the same issue. Read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John's account of Jesus and see real contradictions.

3. Does God answer prayers? Well, I'm not really sure about that. Someone might be suffering from malaria, the person takes drugs and still prays, the drugs work, but the person thanks God. Or a successful surgical operation, instead of thanking the doctor, they thank God. Some illnesses that would have been treated led to deaths because a certain congregation who were supposed to take the ill persons to the hospital, circled around praying. Faith without work isn't it still dead?
I remember when I had stomach ulcer, it was really terrible, I prayed and made several promises to God that if He took away the ulcer, I'd drink no more alcohol and will be more devout in worshipping Him. That didn't solve anything though, I stopped drinking and took to taking my drugs more seriously. Weeks later, I was well. I returned to drinking and after a few months, the ulcer resurfaced. That was when I realized I really needed to quit drinking. Prayers wouldn't have solved that issue.
I spent 80% of 2019 at home because of my misgivings about God's existence.
I really wish I could be convinced about God's existence because I'm not even happy to be away from Church because of the views of friends and family.

4. Children of God, or so called children of God tend to suffer more tribulations, hard times and desperate moments, a lot of them scream "Vanity upon Vanity" when secular people live in luxury or spend extravagantly. God tends to turn his back on those who worship Him especially when they need Him most.
The 1933 Holocaust and mass murder of Jews to the tone of 6m was a clear indication that God turns His eyes against His people
Repulsive comments are highly welcome

DeepSight:
Thanks, I'll take a look at the book.



Is this all you would say to, for example - a serial killer - who finds happiness therein?

Roycemadeit:

DeepSight:
Adopting the same logic in your last paragraph (which I agree with, by the way) - should we not similarly conclude that God could not have created this world - with its imperfections, diseases, absurdities and glitches? Could it not therefore be the work of some non-transcendent or mortal scientists within this realm, or within this universe?

imhere:
Jesus the way the truth and the light John 1:1

DAVE5:
Ok, you’re very correct, is that all?

Roycemadeit:
That's why our pastor's have not written another Bible? They study the one from thousand years ago. Lol

midnighter:
You havent understood the nature of God, which is why you keep making the same wrong argument.

You havent understood the irrelevance of inconsistency or error to the argument for the truth of the pathway to redemption, which is why you keep making the same wrong argument.

Ive already laid it out for you; accept or reject as you will. Have a nice day.

k4kenny:
Look again at the universe, look at the creation of your own self, can you name any imperfections? The world is such a complex creation yet everything is in perfect balance if we were to be a few inches closer to the sun we'd all roast. Same with our body systems, our complex network of cells organs and systems all working together on perfect harmony and balance. These are signs for us to ponder upon.

The imperfections we see in our world today are all man-made.

k4kenny:
And you understand the nature of God? Kindly explain to me then.

Daejoyoung:
.
k4kenny, we write things with errors every day, we also compose music that may have errors, but it doesn't mean that we are not inspired by something powerful. There is no evidence that God ever authored a book in this world, but the love of God inspires men to write about God and such writings can be useful for our learning.

WebSurfer:
God is nature.
Nature is a force.

If you can understand this, other things might make sense to you if you take thorough time to research. which is not something achieved during a short time

k4kenny:
And you understand the nature of God? Kindly explain to me then.

Omonigeriarere:
Indeed you were born as a Christian, but you have not really known the word of God.

See, I was once in your shoe and the more I remained firm in my conviction about non existence of God, the more confused I was.

Christ suffered, likewise his disciples. He enjoyed too just like disciples. In the end, He was so pragmatic by telling them that all believers would face tribulations, but also promised them that none will overcome them if they believe.

Just an experience in a Church where tithes are being effectively utilized to cater for education of orphans, widow and widowers, poor and needy would change your mind unlike all these sole proprietors calling themselves Daddies.

However, please be reminded that you ate still alive while many have died through the same malaria you had. Yet, you claimed that God refused to answer your prayer. Remember, Stella, Yaradua etc were attended to at best hospitals and Drs in the world, but it doesn't guarantee their sound health. This is what is called grace and it is only given by God.

Having Chief Security Officer didn't guarantee your safety.

Being attended to by the best Drs in the best hospitals does not guarantee good health.

Best mansion does not guarantee happy home.

If so, why claiming non existence of God even when our traditional believe did not claim otherwise?

You had a terrible stomach ulcer, you prayed and made several promises to God that if He took away the ulcer, you will refrain from such. You stopped drinking and took to taking my drugs more seriously. Weeks later, you became well and immediately returned to drinking and after a few months, the ulcer resurfaced. Who are you deceiving? You broke a promise you have made. Now, you are enjoying the consequence.

Whatever a man sows, so shall he reap. If taking drugs is all what is required to get healed, I think our society is supposed to be free of patients by now.

Now, compare your sentence above with the fruit of the spirits listed in the Bible and tell us which one fits in. Christianity is not about instant miracles and problem free life you were envisaging. Guard your loins cos there is no perfect life in religion but in Christ alone.