RisenPhoenix:


From the way you speak, it is obvious. The principle of money creation is one of the most fundamental topics in economics at tertiary level. Impossible that anyone with exposure to economics theories would not know what it is or how it works.

RisenPhoenix:



Is that what you call payment? Let us take it one step at a time; how do muslims benefit from money deposited with CBN by commercial banks?

Agboriotejoye:


I see, you're talking about money supply and circulation I guess. I hope you realize that it is based on the fact that a bank collects interest rates from borrowers and pays interests to depositors. So, how does that lead to exploitation?

osuofia2:

BUT MUSLIMS BENEFIT FROM COMPANY INCOME TAX PAID BY COMMERCIAL BANKS TO FIRS, WHY DONT THEY REJECT IT SINCE IT IS A PROCEED FROM COMMERCIAL BANKS

RisenPhoenix:


I am not a muslim, but I find some financial aspects of Islam interesting (and incidentally, logical). I am in the field of finance. Is it ok to ask questions on the Islamic viewpoint on interest based institutions (I assume riba is interest?)?

Sorry, I had to accept the required condition on my profile. No other way to put my questions.

Lukgaf:
Read these;

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/12823/banks-interest-is-called-riba-usury-in-shareeah

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/129458/definition-of-riba-and-ruling-on-work-that-helps-with-riba

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/128923/the-difference-between-riba-based-banks-and-islamic-banks

RisenPhoenix:


Money creation by banks. Not money supply or circulation.

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-economics/chapter/creating-money/

RisenPhoenix:


Oh so you've abandoned the 'deposit with CBN' theory? Good. That's a start.

At your latest statement. Yes. That is why I was asking how far down one can go until interest becomes permissible. This is like 4 or 5 levels down the line. I don't know whether it would be permissibke at that stage. As for avoiding benefit from govt spending derived from tax, how exactly do you propose they do that?

And typing in all caps doesn't improve your argument believe me.

Agboriotejoye:

What i'm trying to say is that religion itself is a product of philosophy

RisenPhoenix:


How far down the line do muslim jurists go when forbidding interest? For example, I guess that other direct interest based institutions like discount houses, mutual fund managers, , cooperative societies etc are all forbidden to muslims as well, since they all involve interest based transactions; but we can still go on further to institutions that not directly involved with interest, but deal with them; eg external auditors of banks, stockbrokers who buy and sell bank shares, insurance companies, pension fund administrators, investment banks. Is it forbidden for muslims to work there as well?

Agboriotejoye:

Profit sharing by the bank? Is the bank a shareholder in the business to share in the business' profit?

midnighter:


Modified: I just got what you were saying.

Yes, you're right but the scope of religious philosophy should be widened to accommodate conflicting or alternative views.

That's what we are missing in this pseudo-religious shambles of a country. Critical thinking and enlightened evaluation of ideas.

papiforreal:


How do these institutions make their money?
Is it by investing in businesses that are interest based?
If yes is the answer, then you cannot work in such places unless it's necessity. I.e you are unable to secure another job.

Agboriotejoye:

Ok. I've seen it. It is based on the CRR ratio. That does not in anyway encourage exploitation especially when you realize that interest rates are set by the Central bank and not by the DMBs themselves.

Lukgaf:
Read these;

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/12823/banks-interest-is-called-riba-usury-in-shareeah

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/129458/definition-of-riba-and-ruling-on-work-that-helps-with-riba

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/128923/the-difference-between-riba-based-banks-and-islamic-banks

jelel6:


This is amazing you think RELIGION IS WHAT IT IS TO YOU AS IT IS TO OTHERS.

If the essence of religion is to be the working manual from God to human kind, then I don't want it "rationalize" at every turn by fellow homo sapiens.

The major problem "supposedly" 22nd century thinkers have with a religion like Islam is its dogged refusal to change with the times. And why should it? If its very spirit is that it comes from a higher power, God. Allah.

Who is All-knowing, All-Aware.

jelel6:
Interesting conversation!!!

In Islam, what's permissible is permissible and what is not permissible is NOT PERMISSIBLE except for some extreme cases where some conditions must be met.

Usury (interest)(Ri'ba) is NOT permissible and it was clearly stated in the Qur'an in unmistakable terms.

As a Muslim, and in the MAKE UP of the world we find ourselves today, there's no denying that it is practically impossible to Fulfill each and every tenets of the Deen even if a Muslim is willing and able to do so. That is because some decisions and conditions needs to be TAKEN by the Governing Authority.

Unfortunately, Usury is one of those problems which an individual Muslim cannot possibly be in a position to change the predominant banking system practiced here that is heavily based on western practices.

In addition, Nigeria is a secular state and not at liberty to establish or promote interest-free banking. Hence, the overwhelming numbers of commercial Banks in Nigeria deals heavily on interest as it's simply more profitable for them to do so.

However, a Muslim is still expected to avoid everything Haram as much as possible. The bottom line is dealing directly Giving interest based loans and/or receiving such is clearly Haram.

Common sense dictates that if giving and receiving of Usury is unlawful, aiding someone else is Also not going to be permissible.

You can rationalize your choice of working in an interest based commercial bank as much as you like, the fact still remains that will be the same as aiding or promoting Usury practice. You can say the economic situation is bad as mush as you want, but you're only being hypocritical to believe Working in a Bank is your only means of livelihood. There are many other possible and permissible sector that one can gain employment.

You make a conscious effort to study a course which may likely bring you closer to a Banking career. You make a conscious effort to seek employment in these same Banks. It was never your only viable option. Even the Gateman is directly being paid from proceeds from interests.
There's no way you work in a Bank and not directly benefits from the proceeds from interests based dealings.

The bank offers numerous other services that are not unlawful. Example is safe keeping of funds. And the coperate world makes it almost impossible not to own a Bank account. If there are no Islamic Bank, a Muslim May be forced to make use of the general commercial Banks.

The bank basic accounts services is safe keeping of monies and an individual normally does not benefits from its interest based practices. Infact, you're being charged by the bank for this service they render. If the bank do pay a percentage into your bank account as per the norm, you're expected to spend this interest based gains on Charity (Sadaka) without expecting any reward from Allah for it. You only sin if you spend it on personal use. But no reward for it when you give this percentage out as Charity as it's not lawful earnings.

Those who rationalize working in a Bank because the economy is hard, remember that's also how outright sinners say the go into illegal dealings because it was their only option.

Allah knows those who strive in his cause and those who strive in his cause only when it suits them.

Allah knows Best

RisenPhoenix:


The creation of money leads down a convoluted pathway of exchanging ever escalating interest driven fiat debt for real assets held by society. Interest encourages and escalates that debt further. The entire financial system is in cahoots with world leaders and international institutions. That is why it is impossible to eradicate, but it is still exploitative. It is the single major reason why the gulf between rich and poor is widening by the second.

And by the way, the existing Islamic banks are still part of the whole show. That is why I am sceptical that they are a 'solution'; at least with the limited knowledge at my disposal.

RisenPhoenix:


Thank you.

@bolded. I do not understand this. What are the fundamental conditions for these extenuating circumstances? For example, you said that if one cannot get work at an Islamic bank, then one can work in a conventional bank. But wouldn't that imply that the only option that a muslim has to work is in a bank? My point is; he does not have to work in any bank at all if he cannot get an Islamic bank, or where is my guess going wrong? Also, refusing to work at an interest based bank becomes unislamic? Confusing.

@second bolded. What do you mean by sighted? If a muslim goes to a buka where only pork is sold, he can eat it just because the next buka is across the street out of sight? What of if he uses a curtain to shut off his view or faces the wall, does it become ok? This is getting stranger. Looks like Islamic rules are useless and only there nominally if they are that simple to break.

Or are you getting something wrong? The op does not seem to follow your opinion.

Hussein01:


Don't get it twisted and don't let it strange to you as there is nothing strange or inane in that.


For your first question, if you could take your time and re-read the first two paragraphs,you would find answer to your question there.

The conditions that may legitimate Muslims using or working in interest based bank is the fact that (1)Nigeria is not an Islamic State where Islamic Banking System is being operated.(2)hardly can you find Islamic Bank in Nigeria. (3)unavailability of job (4)harsh economy.

So where do you expect Muslims to keep their money when there is none that suit their believe? that is conditional, and be that as it may, condition-wise, this does not present Muslims with the opportunity of receiving or taking interest, get what is yours as a customer and get paid for your labour as a worker.

Concerning Muslims working in interest based bank, the answer is already up there, if there is any other options that agree with the provision of Islamic Law then working in the former will/may become forbidden.
A Muslim may not have to work in a bank but what if that is the opportunity to cater for the family and seems only mean of surviving?. let's face the reality you know what's up with Nigerian graduates and job -that is one of the condition I was talking about.

And the word "sighted" in that content means rightful possession of something or the ability to.


And lastly, the Islamic Law is not easy to break.
In the contemporary society do you think,in case of a Muslim traveller, it will be so difficult to find or rightfully possess what is lawful that only the available food would be pork?NO
arguably, using pork as an example in case like this is needless, but this example still remain extant to underscore how a Muslim should strive to get what is lawful before laying hand on what is unlawful is deemed permissible.

I hope you get it.


Allah knows the best

Agboriotejoye:


That's how the financial system works. No need adding conspiracy to it. The system intermediates between surplus and deficit thereby generating money/wealth in the process.

The idea of Islamic banking replaces interest rates with profit/loss sharing. This makes the bank a shareholder in principle. But in effect, there's still a price to pay so I don't really see any difference.

midnighter:


You are being insincere.

Tell me, are ALL the ideas and concepts that we see being claimed as Islamic Islamic?

Including the ideologies of Boko Haram. Including the defence of gay and lesbian Muslims. And including your own comment where you stated that anybody who tries to give the excuse of being unable to find a job in a non-usury-based institution is only deceiving himself.

Do you agree with EVERYTHING people on this thread have said concerning usury? If not, then philosophy and critical thinking are required.

jelel6:
Interesting conversation!!!

In Islam, what's permissible is permissible and what is not permissible is NOT PERMISSIBLE except for some extreme cases where some conditions must be met.

Usury (interest)(Ri'ba) is NOT permissible and it was clearly stated in the Qur'an in unmistakable terms.

As a Muslim, and in the MAKE UP of the world we find ourselves today, there's no denying that it is practically impossible to Fulfill each and every tenets of the Deen even if a Muslim is willing and able to do so. That is because some decisions and conditions needs to be TAKEN by the Governing Authority.

Unfortunately, Usury is one of those problems which an individual Muslim cannot possibly be in a position to change the predominant banking system practiced here that is heavily based on western practices.

In addition, Nigeria is a secular state and not at liberty to establish or promote interest-free banking. Hence, the overwhelming numbers of commercial Banks in Nigeria deals heavily on interest as it's simply more profitable for them to do so.

However, a Muslim is still expected to avoid everything Haram as much as possible. The bottom line is dealing directly Giving interest based loans and/or receiving such is clearly Haram.

Common sense dictates that if giving and receiving of Usury is unlawful, aiding someone else is Also not going to be permissible.

You can rationalize your choice of working in an interest based commercial bank as much as you like, the fact still remains that will be the same as aiding or promoting Usury practice. You can say the economic situation is bad as mush as you want, but you're only being hypocritical to believe Working in a Bank is your only means of livelihood. There are many other possible and permissible sector that one can gain employment.

You make a conscious effort to study a course which may likely bring you closer to a Banking career. You make a conscious effort to seek employment in these same Banks. It was never your only viable option. Even the Gateman is directly being paid from proceeds from interests.
There's no way you work in a Bank and not directly benefits from the proceeds from interests based dealings.

The bank offers numerous other services that are not unlawful. Example is safe keeping of funds. And the coperate world makes it almost impossible not to own a Bank account. If there are no Islamic Bank, a Muslim May be forced to make use of the general commercial Banks.

The bank basic accounts services is safe keeping of monies and an individual normally does not benefits from its interest based practices. Infact, you're being charged by the bank for this service they render. If the bank do pay a percentage into your bank account as per the norm, you're expected to spend this interest based gains on Charity (Sadaka) without expecting any reward from Allah for it. You only sin if you spend it on personal use. But no reward for it when you give this percentage out as Charity as it's not lawful earnings.

Those who rationalize working in a Bank because the economy is hard, remember that's also how outright sinners say the go into illegal dealings because it was their only option.

Allah knows those who strive in his cause and those who strive in his cause only when it suits them.

Allah knows Best

RisenPhoenix:


It is not a conspiracy. It is just utilised covertly, except by some nations like China, which makes no qualms about its desire to exchange the debts of its poor debtors for real assets. And the money 'generated' is at the expense of the future taxpayer. That is why there are never ending cycles of debt bubbles and recessions getting ever larger and leaving more and more people in poverty. The problem is that no one wants to challenge the status quo established by the banks and big corporations, so existing interest and debt policies are never challenged.

As for profit sharing vs interest, there is a difference, though slight. Interest rates are typically risk free, so those who own the banks are basically guaranteed their profit and the owners of capital always get richer as debt is never fully repaid only serviced and recycled. Profit sharing is risky, as wealth is gained and distributed jointly; I believe that latter aspect is what makes profit sharing loans less socially harmful since a profit is not made at the exprnse of the investor or the end user of the product. It also makes it less profitable to the bank.

jelel6:


Hence, it's totally alright to conclude every religion, every beliefs, every systems is susceptible to abuse by it users. Whether that abuse is as a result of innocent intentions or evil machinations is subject to interpretations.

Study Islam with the Qur'an and judge the religion by it. Not what Abu Shakau, Buhari, Me, You, or the Holy Spirit whispers in humans. Then, use your critical thinking, rational, intuition, learning, understanding to deferentiate Truth from Falsehood.

Muslims are subjected to the rulings of all of Islam for all times, whether they like it or not. Whether it suits them or not.

Agboriotejoye:


You're painting a picture if doom which is not a reality. The reality is that the biggest debtors are actually the richest in the society. How many poor have access to credit facilities in dmbs?
Loans and interest rates depend on economic indices and not whim and caprices of the banks. So a covert plan to rob the poor for the rich does not exist.

If loans and interest rates are risk free, why then do banks fail and bad loans occur? Lending money comes at risk which is basically a systemic risk which the banks have no control over. Inflation can render the true value of the money useless and such other realities. Profit sharing gives return to the banks just as interest rates

RisenPhoenix:


Ok. This is the clearest comment I have seen on this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong but you basically seems that there is no leeway unless there is no choice due to impositions by an overwhelming regulatory authority. It becomes a little clearer now.

Are you an imam?

jelel6:


Things that are not permissible in Islam, it is the duty of every individual Muslim to STOP its practice. Hence, in a Sharia state interest based banking will or should not be allowed to strive. This responsibility will be normally carried out by the Islamic ruler, like we have in some state in the middle East.

Nigeria is different. The Government is secular. Hence, the ability to STOP interests based transactions is not with the Muslim or Islamic ruler. So, we have commercial interest Banks in full operation.

The Qur'an says Usury is unlawful for Muslim to practice. Hence, I can't take interest based loans and I can't give interest based loans.

In addition, I can't help anyone else promote or practice interest based transactions either.

That is where the OP's question scope falls into. Although Banks do offer other services to the public that does not have anything to do with interest or proceeds from it. Ordinary, it will be permissible to work for such institution without the Usury. But Banks earn the majority of its profit through offering interests based transactions. And one can't work for a Bank and not have them pay you FROM PROCEEDS GOTTEN THROUGH INTEREST. Even though they offer other lawful services from an Islamic perspective.

Unlawful or fobbiden practices may become lawful if it comes to a matter of survival or something harmful may happen to you or someone else if you do not make use of THAT thing that is unlawful.

Assuming a pilot crash landed in a remote forest and only pork meat is available to him as food, which is something that is ordinarily unlawful to eat. Then he is obligated to eat the availability Pork meat and not starve himself. He cannot refuse to eat the Pork in such instance and choose to starve himself to death instead. He will be committing suicide in that case.

Here the unlawful becomes lawful and the Muslim faithful is obligated to use it.

However, working in a Bank in present day Nigeria cannot be justified that there's no alternative. No sincere person can say a Bank Job is the ONLY POSSIBLE MEANS OF earning food to eat! You can't indulge in unlawful practice except to the bearest minimum for survival. Working in a Bank is no survival move, IT IS A KINGS MOVE.

If you claim that your expenses can only be met with a Bank Job, then we have to excuse the Arm robbers and Internet Fraudsters who says the millions gotten from such operation is the ONLY avenue open for them to cater for their needs.

I'm not an Iman in the traditional sense of the word

Allah knows Best

RisenPhoenix:


The richest in society are the owners of banks who also own major corporations, and their debts are not important in the grand scheme of things since they practically owe themselves and either pass down the debt to the consumer or get bailed out when they fail. Loans and interest rates are also set by government policies driven by those same caucus. You have too much faith in the altruism of the establishment.

They are not totally risk free, but would be if regulation is followed. Banks fail because they do not always keep to the rules. They always try to buck the system. Loans are given to related parties, credit worthiness is not always checked properly, loans are inadequately secured in the mad rush to get more customers, and external auditors sign off on all this crap without remorse. It is not due to unavoidable systemic risk by any sense of the word. It is due to very avoidable operational risk left unmitigated due to greed and the eagerness to lend; itself driven by interest income. When your profit is guaranteed, you don't want to know whether your client is going down or not. Either you sell of the collateral (if any) and get your money back, or the government takes over your losses and bales you out.

Economic indices are manipulated, assessed, measured and reported by those same people who control the money supply, dictate monetary policy, give out loans, and run the banks. How reliable is that?

Your scepticism is understandable. Eco 101 teaches you how economics works and how the interest based, corporate run fiat system is the only true, infallible system in the world. Yet we see the rich get richer and the poor get poorer every day and still think we are on the right way. It takes a lot of reading to get out of the rut that regular school puts you in.

midnighter:


You're talking from both sides of your mouth.

You admitted that people have different viewpoints while denying them the right to explore whether those viewpoints are correct or not.

So where did Boko Haram learn to kill people?

Don't you think if they were taught to critically evaluate the extremist ideas they were fed, they would know that what they're doing is wrong?

Otherwise how do you know that YOU are not wrong and Boko Haram is not correct

You dont have any right to assume that you are less murderous or suicidal than a Boko Haram member. That is arrogant speculation. You don't know what he has been taught. The point of this is education, enlightenment and teaching.

What is the basis of fiqh schools? What determines who follows which school? Why do Sunni Muslims reject the inclusion of Imam Alis as name in the Adhan? Why is the hand of Fatima a ubiquitous symbol throughout the Islamic world, even though superstition is banned in Islam?

All you just described here is philosophy, which means you don't even have any problem with philosophy.

You only have a problem with other people not subscribing to your view, based on your interpretation of what the scripture means.

Which is hypocrisy.

Whether you like it or not, religion is just an idea and ideas should be examined and explored and not just swallowed blindly. So philosophy is not unislamic.