blueAgent:


You are desperately looking for Bible commentaries that support your false teaching.

When the Bible God's word is clear on this the saints are not in Heaven but in their graves waiting for the resurrection.

Bible commentary that support your notion that the cloud of witnesses are God, Jesus and the Angels!

If you can't find any, be humble enough to make a correction

blueAgent:


How can they been the saints since the saints are still even there graves waiting for the resurrection?

90% of the commentaries acknowledge that it is the faith and deeds of those saints that are witnesses to us. not the saints alive watching us.

The Saints are acknowledged because they lived by Faith. That's why they are a witness (they've passed through worse than we have and succeeded).
A witness is a person/persons who can TESTIFY about events or happenings.

Is it possible to have an inanimate witness?

blueAgent:



The cloud of witness can not be the saints watching us from Heaven because God told us that saints like David are still in there graves.
waiting for the resurrection day.


Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,




Even David knew he was going to wait in the grave till when Christ will come so he wrote in
Psalm 17:15
As for me, I will behold your face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied,
when I awake, with your likeness.

Job also agrees with David as he also wrote his own.

In Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

I am trying to help you out here. You said the cloud of witnesses were God, Jesus and the Angels. All I need is one PROOF from any commentary. I don't require another epistle, what I require is a supporting evidence.
The question again was:

Can you please find me a commentary from any source
that teaches that the cloud of witnesses are God, Jesus and the Angels?

blueAgent:


There over a 100 commentaries that agree with my narrative and I did not consult them before I wrote my.

I was only inspired to write what I wrote and it agrees with almost all true bible commentaries.



Here is one.


Verse 1 says, “ Since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding
us, let us . . . run.” So the first motivation I want us to see is this cloud
of witnesses. Who are they and what does their witnessing mean? They are the saints that have lived and died so valiantly by faith in chapter 11.
Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, and all those who suffered
and died, “of whom the world was not worthy.”
But what does their “witnessing” refer to? Does it refer to their watching us from heaven? Or does it refer their witnessing to us by their lives? The word “witness” can have either meaning: the act of seeing something, or the act of telling something. Which is it here? I think it is the act of
telling. The verb form of this word “witness” ( martureo) is used five times in Hebrews 11 (in verses 2, 4 [twice], 5, 39) and always refers to the giving of a (confirming) testimony rather than the mere watching of an event.
So I take the witnesses of Hebrews 12:1 to be the saints who have run the race before us, and have gathered, as it were, along the marathon route to say, through the testimony of their lives, “By faith I finished, you can too!”
The best way to illustrate this, I think, is with Hebrews 11:4 , where the
writer speaks of Abel and says, “Through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.” So Abel is in the cloud of witnesses, and he is witnessing to us by his life through the Scriptures. This is the way all the witnesses of Hebrews 11 are helping us. They have gathered along the sidelines of our
race and they hold out their wounds and their joys and give us the best
high-fives we ever got: “Go for it! You can do it. By faith, you can finish.
You can lay the weights down and the sins. By faith, by the assurance of
better things hoped for, you can do it. I did it. And I know it can be done.
Run. Run!”
So be encouraged when you plan your fall run with Jesus. There are
dozens and hundreds and thousands of those who have gone before and
who have finished the race by faith and surround us like a great cloud of
witnesses who say: “It can be done! By faith, it can be done.”
2. History is waiting for you.

Here is what your commentary says are the cloud of witnesses.

They are the saints that have lived and died so valiantly by faith in chapter 11.
Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, and all those who suffered
and died, “of whom the world was not worthy.”

So I take the witnesses of Hebrews 12:1 to be the saints who have run
the race before us, and have gathered, as it were, along the marathon route to say, through the testimony of their lives, “By faith I finished, you can too!”

So Abel is in the cloud of witnesses

I guess you can now see from the commentary you posted by yourself of "Who the Cloud of Witnesses Are".

The cloud of witnesses is certainly not God, Jesus and the Angels.

@blueAgent

The truth is that God values all those who lived by the law of conscience (whatever i won't accept, i shouldn't do to my fellowman) Examples are
Abel
Enoch
Noah
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph.

But God never gave them any law, not until he decided to establish pure worship so that all those who love him can be gathered together as one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers!

There are so many other people from different races whose names can't be found in the Bible, but God remembers them because they lived by the laws of conscience!

Job is not an Israelite, he never knew anything about God's laws yet he kept his integrity before both God and man {Job 31:1} of course all these people are Witnesses to the fact that God created man in a way that we can distinguish to choose between right and wrong! Hebrew 12:1
So now that God has sent his only begotten son to TEACH us the way of holiness, whatever our conscience and the MOSAIC LAWS taught us has become INVALID(OBSOLETE) when compared to the laws that God's son wrote in our hearts when we study his thoughts, words and actions! Jeremiah 31:33

Maximus69:


Then why is it that it's only the sons of Israel, (Jacob) son of Isaac, son of Abraham that knew the laws when Abraham their grate grandfather obeyed, kept commandments, statutes and laws?

Whereas there are other children like Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shua. Then Esau (Edom) son of Isaac!

None of them knew anything about the laws you said their father Abraham kept, only for God to now write it in a tablet so that Moses could present it to ONLY the sons of Israel!

Maximus69:
@blueAgent

The truth is that God values all those who lived by the law of conscience (whatever i won't accept, i shouldn't do to my fellowman) Examples are
Abel
Enoch
Noah
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph.

But God never gave them any law, not until he decided to establish pure worship so that all those who love him can be gathered together as one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers!

There are so many other people from different races whose names can't be found in the Bible, but God remembers them because they lived by the laws of conscience!

Job is not an Israelite, he never knew anything about God's laws yet he kept his integrity before both God and man {Job 31:1} of course all these people are Witnesses to the fact that God created man in a way that we can distinguish to choose between right and wrong! Hebrew 12:1
So now that God has sent his only begotten son to TEACH us the way of holiness, whatever our conscience and the MOSAIC LAWS taught us has become INVALID(OBSOLETE) when compared to the laws that God's son wrote in our hearts when we study his thoughts, words and actions! Jeremiah 31:33

So now you agree that some people will be judged by their conscience?

The law has existed right from the creation.
If the law did not exist how and why did God judge Adam and Eve?

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there
is no law.

How did this men know right or wrong?
Conscience cannot work without a guide that is a law, that expresses what is bad or wrong.

blueAgent:


So now you agree that some people will be judged by their conscience?

The law has existed right from the creation.
If the law did not exist how and why did God judge Adam and Eve?

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there
is no law.

How did this men know right or wrong?
Conscience cannot work without a guide that is a law, that expresses what is bad or wrong.

MOSAIC LAWS will guide the Israelites to welcome the Christians Jesus sent to preach to them, but if they failed to welcome Jesus' messengers whereas their laws already asked them to be nice to strangers, then God's wrath awaits them!

CONSCIENCE will guide people of the nations to welcome Christians, because their conscience will tell them to be kind to strangers, that's when their Judgement begins!

None of them can automatically qualify for God's Kingdom until they accept Christianity, the MOSAIC LAWS or CONSCIENCE have done it's part once they welcome the Christians, but if they refuse to accept Christianity, then all the works of their MOSAIC LAWS or CONSCIENCE become worthless before God who presented his only begotten son a model for all MANKIND! Isaiah 64:6

shadeyinka:

I am trying to help you out here. You said the cloud of witnesses were God, Jesus and the Angels. All I need is one PROOF from any commentary. I don't require another epistle, what I require is a supporting evidence.
The question again was:

Can you please find me a commentary from any source
that teaches that the cloud of witnesses are God, Jesus and the Angels?

I do not depend on any useless commentary in order to proof my point.

I gave you Bible verses that shows that God, Holy spirit and Jesus are our witness.

If that is not sufficient then you forget it.

blueAgent:


I do not depend on any useless commentary in order to proof my point.

I gave you Bible verses that shows that God, Holy spirit and Jesus are our witness.

If that is not sufficient then you forget it.

Be humble enough when you're wrong. There isn't a Christian (including myself) wo cannot make doctrinal errors. Till Jesus comes, we are learning. If no one else hold your point of view, you might be on your way to heresy

shadeyinka:

Be humble enough when you're wrong. There isn't a Christian (including myself) wo cannot make doctrinal errors. Till Jesus comes, we are learning. If no one else hold your point of view, you might be on your way to heresy

This is blueAgent, not an Orangutan.

So it's not compulsory he finds people holding his point of view!

Sebi you were against the same line of thought!

Now you're suggesting what you've been referring to as "ORANGUTAN"

You will know the truth and the truth will set you free~Jesus

That's if you welcome the truth with open harms!

shadeyinka:

Here is what your commentary says are the cloud of witnesses.








I guess you can now see from the commentary you posted by yourself of "Who the Cloud of Witnesses Are".

The cloud of witnesses is certainly not God, Jesus and the Angels.

You really confused.

This same commentary you quoted never said the saints are alive watching us, rather it says there faith and deeds are like a witness to us of God's faithfulness.
chapter 11.
Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, and all those who
suffered and died, “of whom the world was not worthy.”
But what does their “witnessing” refer to? Does it refer to their
watching us from heaven? Or does it refer their witnessing to us by
their lives? The word “witness” can have either meaning: the act of
seeing something, or the act of telling something. Which is it here? I
think it is the act of telling. The verb form of this word “witness” ( martureo) is used five times in Hebrews 11 (in verses 2, 4 [twice], 5, 39) and always refers to the giving of a (confirming) testimony rather than the mere watching of an event.
So I take the witnesses of Hebrews 12:1 to be the saints who have
run the race before us, and have gathered, as it were, along the
marathon route to say, through the testimony of their lives, “By faith I
finished, you can too!”
The best way to illustrate this, I think, is with Hebrews 11:4 , where
the writer speaks of Abel and says, “Through faith, though he is dead, he
still speaks.” So Abel is in the cloud of witnesses, and he is
witnessing to us by his life through the Scriptures. This is the way all
the witnesses of Hebrews 11 are helping us. They have gathered along
the sidelines of our race and they hold out their wounds and their joys and give us the
best high-fives we ever got: “Go for it! You can do it. By faith, you can
finish.
You can lay the weights down and the sins. By faith, by the assurance
of better things hoped for, you can do it. I did it. And I know it can be
done.Run. Run!”
So be encouraged when you plan your fall run with Jesus. There are
dozens and hundreds and thousands of those who have gone before
and who have finished the race by faith and surround us like a great cloud
of witnesses who say: “It can be done! By faith, it can be done.”

Maximus69:


MOSAIC LAWS will guide the Israelites to welcome the Christians Jesus sent to preach to them, but if they failed to welcome Jesus' messengers whereas their laws already asked them to be nice to strangers, then God's wrath awaits them!

CONSCIENCE will guide people of the nations to welcome Christians, because their conscience will tell them to be kind to strangers, that's when their Judgement begins!

None of them can automatically qualify for God's Kingdom until they accept Christianity, the MOSAIC LAWS or CONSCIENCE have done it's part once they welcome the Christians, but if they refuse to accept Christianity, then all the works of their MOSAIC LAWS or CONSCIENCE become worthless before God who presented his only begotten son a model for all MANKIND! Isaiah 64:6

Sin is defined as breaking God's law.

Can you tell me which law is that?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


Since the Devil has been sinning from the beginning and God also told Cain that he has sinned.
So which law did the Devil and Cain break.
In your place can you charge someone for wrong if there is no set out standard or law expressing what is wrong or not?

Maximus69:
@blueAgent

The truth is that God values all those who lived by the law of conscience (whatever i won't accept, i shouldn't do to my fellowman) Examples are
Abel
Enoch
Noah
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph.

But God never gave them any law, not until he decided to establish pure worship so that all those who love him can be gathered together as one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers!

There are so many other people from different races whose names can't be found in the Bible, but God remembers them because they lived by the laws of conscience!

Job is not an Israelite, he never knew anything about God's laws yet he kept his integrity before both God and man {Job 31:1} of course all these people are Witnesses to the fact that God created man in a way that we can distinguish to choose between right and wrong! Hebrew 12:1
So now that God has sent his only begotten son to TEACH us the way of holiness, whatever our conscience and the MOSAIC LAWS taught us has become INVALID(OBSOLETE) when compared to the laws that God's son wrote in our hearts when we study his thoughts, words and actions! Jeremiah 31:33

Even Jesus confessed that he has God's law in his heart.


Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm
40:8. And when among men He said, "The Father hath not left Me
alone; for I do always those things that please Him." John 8:29

Maximus69:
@blueAgent

The truth is that God values all those who lived by the law of conscience (whatever i won't accept, i shouldn't do to my fellowman) Examples are
Abel
Enoch
Noah
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph.

But God never gave them any law, not until he decided to establish pure worship so that all those who love him can be gathered together as one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers!

There are so many other people from different races whose names can't be found in the Bible, but God remembers them because they lived by the laws of conscience!

Job is not an Israelite, he never knew anything about God's laws yet he kept his integrity before both God and man {Job 31:1} of course all these people are Witnesses to the fact that God created man in a way that we can distinguish to choose between right and wrong! Hebrew 12:1
So now that God has sent his only begotten son to TEACH us the way of holiness, whatever our conscience and the MOSAIC LAWS taught us has become INVALID(OBSOLETE) when compared to the laws that God's son wrote in our hearts when we study his thoughts, words and actions! Jeremiah 31:33

THOSE who are in the habit of reading the Scriptures just as they find
them, and of understanding them according to the established rules of
interpretation, will never be at a loss to understand so plain a passage as
the following: “And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it;
because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and
made.” Genesis 2:3 Moses, when referring to it, says to the children of
Israel, “This is that which the Lord hath said , to-morrow is the REST of
the holy Sabbath unto the Lord.” Exodus 16:23 {SC1 3.1}
Then we understand that God established the seventh day Sabbath in
Paradise, on the very day when he rested from all his work, and not one
week, nor one year, not two thousand five hundred and fourteen years
afterwards, as some would have it. Is it not plain that the Sabbath was
instituted to commemorate the stupendous work of creation, and
designed by God to be celebrated by his worshipers as a weekly Sabbath,
in the same manner as the Israelites were commanded to celebrate the
Passover, from the very night of their deliverance till the resurrection of
Jesus from the dead; or as we, as a nation, annually celebrate our
national independence; or as type answers to antitype, so we believe this
must run down, to the “keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God” in
the immortal state. {SC1 3.2}
It is argued by some, that because no mention is made of the Sabbath
from its institution in Paradise till the falling of the manna in the
wilderness, mentioned in Exodus 16:15 , that it was therefore here
instituted for the Jews, but we think there is bible argument sufficient to
sustain the reply of Jesus to the Pharisees, “that the Sabbath was made
for MAN and not man for the Sabbath.” If it was made for any one
exclusively it must have been for Adam, the father of us all, two thousand
years before Abraham (who is claimed as the father of the Jews) was
born. John says, the old commandment was from the beginning - 1 John
2:7 {SC1 3.3}
There is pretty strong inference that the antediluvians measured time by
weeks from the account given by Noah, when the waters of the deluge
began to subside. He “sent out a dove which soon returned.” Genesis 8:8,
9 At the end of seven days he sent her out again; and at the end of
seven days more, he sent her out a third time. Now why this preference
for the number seven ? why not five or ten days, or any other number?
Can it be supposed that his fixing on upon seven was accidental? How
much more natural to conclude that it was in obedience to the authority
of God, as expressed in the 2nd chap. of Gen. A similar division of time
is incidentally mentioned in Genesis 29:27, 28 fulfill her week and we will
give thee this also; and Jacob did so and fulfilled her week .” Now the
word week is every where used in Scriptures as we use it; it never means
more nor less than seven days (except as symbols of years) and one of
them was in all other cases the Sabbath. But now suppose there had
been an entire silence on the subject of the Sabbath for this twenty-five
hundred years, would that be sufficient evidence that there was none. If
so, we have the same evidence that there was no Sabbath from the reign
of Joshua till the reign of David, four hundred and six years, as no
mention is made of it in the history of that period. But who can be
persuaded that Samuel and the pious Judges of Israel did not regard the
Sabbath. What does God say of Abraham? that he “obeyed my voice, and
kept my charge, my commandments , my statutes and my laws. (See what
he calls them in Exodus 16:27, 30 ) This, of course, includes the whole.
Then Abraham reverenced God’s Sabbath. Once more, there is no
mention of the circumcision from the days of Joshua till the days of
Jeremiah, a period of more than eight hundred years. Will it be believed
that Samuel and David, and all those pious worthies with the whole
Jewish nation, neglected that essential seal of the covenant for eight
hundred years? It cannot be admitted for a moment. How then can any
one suppose from the alleged silence of the sacred history that Adam,
Enoch, Noah and Abraham, kept no Sabbath, because the fact was not
stated? If we turn to Jeremiah 9:25, 26 , we find that they had not
neglected this rite of circumcision, only they had not circumcised their
hearts; so that the proof is clear, that silence respecting the keeping any
positive command of God, is no evidence that it is not in full force. {SC1
4.1}
Again, if the Sabbath was not instituted in Paradise, why did Moses
mention it in connection with the creation of the world? Why not reserve
this fact for two or three thousand years in his history, until the manna
fell in the wilderness, (see Exodus 16:22, 23) and then state that the
seventh day Sabbath commenced, as some will have it? I answer, for the
very best of reasons, that it did not commence there. Let us examine the
text. “And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as
much bread as on any preceding day, and all the rulers of the congregation
came and told Moses . And he said unto them this is that which the Lord
hath said, to-morrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath. bake that which ye
will bake, etc.etc.” If this had been the establishing of the holy Sabbath
and Moses had said to-morrow shall be the Sabbath, then would it have
been clear; but no, he speaks as familiarly about it as we do when we say
that to-morrow is the Sabbath, showing conclusively that it was known
before, or how could the people have known that they must gather two
day’s manna on Friday the sixth day, unless they had had some previous
knowledge of the Sabbath? for Moses had already taught them not to
“leave any of it until the morning” -v.19 The 20th verse shows that the
Sabbath had not yet come since their receiving the manna, because it
spoiled and “bred worms by the next morning;” whereas, on the Sabbath
morning it was found sweet and edible -24th v. This was the thirtieth day
after leaving Egypt (1st v.) and twenty days before it was given on Sinai.
The weekly Sabbath then was appointed before this or before the days of
Moses. Where was it then? Answer, in the second chapter of Genesis and
no where else; and the same week on which the manna fell, the weekly
Sabbath was revived among or with God’s chosen people. Grotius tells us
“that the memory of the creation’s being performed in seven days, was
preserved not only among the Greeks and Italians, but among the Celts
and Indians.” Other writers say Assyrians, Egyptians, Arabians, Britons and
Germans, all of whom divide their time into weeks. Philo says “the
Sabbath is not peculiar to any one people or country, but is common to
all the world.” Josephus states “that there is no city either of Greeks or
barbarians or any other nation , where the religion of the Sabbath is not
known.” But as they, like the great mass of God’s professed people in
christendom, paid little or no heed to what God had said about the
particular day, (except the Jews, and a few others) they (as we are
informed in history) adopted peculiar days to suit themselves, viz: the
christian nations chose to obey the Pope of Rome, who changed the
seventh day Sabbath to the first day, and call it the holy Sabbath; the
Persians selected Monday; the Grecians Tuesday; the Assyrians
Wednesday; the Egyptians Thursday; the Turks Friday, and the Jews the
seventh day, Saturday, as God had commanded. Three standing miracles
a week, for about forty years annually, ought to perpetuate the Sabbath.
1st, double the quantity of manna on the sixth day; 2nd, none on the
seventh; 3rd, did not spoil on the seventh day. If it does not matter which
day you keep holy to the Lord, then all these nations are right. Now
reflect one moment on this, and then open your bible and read the
commandment of the God of all these nations! “REMEMBER! (what you
have been taught before) the Sabbath day to keep it holy;” (which day is it
Lord?) “ The SEVENTH is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt
not do any work, thou not thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man servant nor
thy maid servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger, that is within thy gates.”
Who is the stranger? (Gentiles.) Now the reason for it will carry us back
again to Paradise. “ For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the
sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the SEVENTH; wherefore the
Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it .” “Wherefore the children of
Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their
generations for a perpetual covenant ; it is a SIGN between me and the
children of Israel forever . (Why is it Lord?) “ For in six days the Lord made
heaven and earth, and on the SEVENTH day he rested and was refreshed .”
Exodus 20 and 21 Which day now will you choose? O, says the reader, the
seventh if I knew which of the days it was. If you don’t know, why are you
so sure that the first day is right? O, because the history of the world has
settled that, and this is the most we can know. Very well then, does not
the seventh come the day before the eighth? If we have not got the days
of the week right now, it is not likely that we ever shall. God does not
require of us any more than what we know; by that we shall be judged.
Luke 23:55, 56 {SC1 5.1}
Once more: think you that the spirit of God ever directed Moses when he
was giving the history of the creation of the world, to write that he (God)
“blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because that in it he had
rested from all his work,” unless he meant it to be dated from that very
day? Why, this is as clear to the unbiased mind as it is that God created
man the sixth day. Would it not be the height of absurdity to attempt to
prove that God only intended Adam should be created at some future
period, or that the creation of the heavens and earth was not in the
beginning, but some twenty-five hundred years afterward? All this would
be as cogent reasoning as it would be to argue that God did not intend
this day of rest should commence until about twenty-five hundred years
afterwards. (The word Sabbath signifies rest.) {SC1 7.1}
It follows then irresistibly, that the weekly Sabbath was not made for the
Jews only, (but as Jesus says, for ‘man’) for the Jews had no existence
until more than two thousand years after it was established. President
Humphrey in his essays on the Sabbath says, “That he (God) instituted it
when he rested from all his work, on the seventh day of the first week,
and gave it primarily to our first parents, and through them to all their
posterity; that the observance of it was enjoined upon the children of
Israel soon after they left Egypt, not in the form of a new enactment, but
as an ancient institution which was far from being forgotten, though it
had doubtless been greatly neglected under the cruel domination of their
heathen masters; that it was reenacted with great pomp and solemnity,
and written in stone by the finger of God at Sinai; that the sacred
institution then took the form of a statute, with explicit prohibitions and
requirements, and has never been repealed or altered since; that it can
never expire of itself, because it has no limitation.” {SC1 7.2}
In Deuteronomy 7:6-8 , God gives his reasons for selecting the Jews to
keep his covenant in preference to any other nation; only seventy at first
Deuteronomy 10:22 . God calls it his “Sabbath,” and refers us right back to
the creation for proof. “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth
and sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh,” etc. Here
then we stand fixed by the immutable law of God, and the word of Jesus,
that “the Sabbath was made for man!” Paul says, “there is no respect of
persons with God.” Romans 2:11 . Isaiah shows us plainly that the Jew is
not the only one to be blessed for keeping the Sabbath. He says “Blessed
is the man (are not the Gentiles men) that keepeth the Sabbath from
polluting it.” “Also the sons of the stranger, (who are these if they are
not Gentiles?) every one that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, (does
he mean me? yes, every Gentile in the universe, or else he respects
persons) even them will I bring to my holy mountain and make them
joyful in my house of prayer; for my house shall be called an house of
prayer for all people.” Isaiah 56:2, 6, 7. If this promise is not to the
Gentile as well as the Jew, then “ the house of prayer for all people.” is no
promise to the Gentile. {SC1 7.3}
Now we ask, if God has ever abrogated the law of the Sabbath? If he has
it can easily be found. We undertake to say without fear of contradiction,
he has not made any such record in the bible; but to the contrary, he calls
it a perpetual covenant, a “sign between me and the children of Israel
forever,” for the reason that he rested on the seventh day. Exodus 31:16,
17. Says one, has not the ceremonial law been annulled and nailed to the
cross? Yes, but what of that? Why then the Sabbath must be abolished,
for Paul to say that the seventh day Sabbath was made void or nailed to
the cross at the crucifixion, when he never intended any such change; if
he did, he certainly would have deceived the inhabitants of Jerusalem, in
the promise which he made them about two thousand four hundred and
forty-six years ago! Turn now to Jeremiah 17:25 , and tell me if he did not
promise the inhabitants of Jerusalem that their city should remain forever
if they would hallow the Sabbath day. Now suppose the inhabitants of
Jerusalem had entered into this agreement, and entailed it upon their
posterity (because you see it could not have been fulfilled unless it had
continued from generation to generation,) to keep the Sabbath holy, would
not God have been bound to let Jerusalem remain forever? You say yes.
Well, then, I ask you to shew how he could have kept that promise
inviolate if he intended in less than six hundred and fifty years to change
this seventh day Sabbath, and call the first day of the week the Sabbath,
or abolish it altogether? I say, therefore, if there has been any change one
way or the other in the Sabbath, since that promise, it would be
impossible to understand any other promise in the Bible; how much more
reasonable to believe God than man. If men will allow themselves to
believe the monstrous absurdity that FOREVER, as in this promise, ended
at the resurrection, then they can easily believe that the Sabbath was
changed from the seventh to the first day of the week. Or if they choose
the other extreme, abolished until the people of God should awake to be
clothed on with immortality. Hebrews 4:9 . {SC1 8.1}
Now does it not appear plain that the Sabbath is from God, and that it is
coeval and co-extensive (as is the institution of marriage) with the world.
That it is without limitation; that there is not one thus saith the Lord that
it ever was or ever will be abolished, in time or eternity. See Exodus
31:16, 17 ; and Isaiah 66:22, 24 ; Hebrews 4:4, 9. But let us return and look
at the subject as we have commenced in the light of Paul’s argument to
the Romans and Colossians, for here is where all writers on this subject,
for the change or the overthrow of the seventh day Sabbath attempt to
draw their strong arguments. The second question then, is this: {SC1

Maximus69:
@blueAgent

The truth is that God values all those who lived by the law of conscience (whatever i won't accept, i shouldn't do to my fellowman) Examples are
Abel
Enoch
Noah
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph.

But God never gave them any law, not until he decided to establish pure worship so that all those who love him can be gathered together as one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers!

There are so many other people from different races whose names can't be found in the Bible, but God remembers them because they lived by the laws of conscience!

Job is not an Israelite, he never knew anything about God's laws yet he kept his integrity before both God and man {Job 31:1} of course all these people are Witnesses to the fact that God created man in a way that we can distinguish to choose between right and wrong! Hebrew 12:1
So now that God has sent his only begotten son to TEACH us the way of holiness, whatever our conscience and the MOSAIC LAWS taught us has become INVALID(OBSOLETE) when compared to the laws that God's son wrote in our hearts when we study his thoughts, words and actions! Jeremiah 31:33

Here's SOP comment from "Patriaches and Prophets" on this...I
had questions on the laws, moral vs ceremonial, Old vs New
Covenant...It really cleared up for me.
Chap. 32 - The Law and the Covenants
Adam and Eve, at their creation, had a knowledge of the law of
God; they were acquainted with its claims upon them; its precepts
were written upon their hearts. When man fell by transgression the
law was not changed, but a remedial system was established to
bring him back to obedience. The promise of a Saviour was given,
and sacrificial offerings pointing forward to the death of Christ as
the great sin offering were established. But had the law of God
never been transgressed, there would have been no death, and no
need of a Saviour; consequently there would have been no need of
sacrifices.
Adam taught his descendants the law of God, and it was handed
down from father to son through successive generations. But
notwithstanding the gracious provision for man's redemption, there
were few who accepted it and rendered obedience. By
transgression the world became so vile that it was necessary to
cleanse it by the Flood from its corruption. The law was preserved
by Noah and his family, and Noah taught his descendants the Ten
Commandments. As men again departed from God, the Lord chose
Abraham, of whom He declared, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and
kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
Genesis 26:5 . To him was given the rite of circumcision, which
was a sign that those who received it were devoted to the service
of God--a pledge that they would remain separate from idolatry,
and would obey the law of God. The failure of Abraham's
descendants to keep this pledge, as shown in their disposition to
form alliances with the heathen and adopt their practices, was the
cause of their sojourn and bondage in Egypt. But in their
intercourse with idolaters, and their forced submission to the
Egyptians, the divine precepts became still further corrupted with
the vile and cruel teachings of heathenism. Therefore when the
Lord brought them forth from Egypt, He came down upon Sinai,
enshrouded in glory and surrounded by His angels, and in awful
majesty spoke His law in the hearing of all the people.
He did not even then trust His precepts to the memory of a people
who were prone to forget His requirements, but wrote them upon
tables of stone. He would remove from Israel all possibility of
mingling heathen traditions with His holy precepts, or of
confounding His requirements with human ordinances or customs.
But He did not stop with giving them the precepts of the
Decalogue. The people had shown themselves so easily led astray
that He would leave no door of temptation unguarded. Moses was
commanded to write, as God should bid him, judgments and laws
giving minute instruction as to what was required. These directions
relating to the duty of the people to God, to one another, and to the
stranger were only the principles of the Ten Commandments
amplified and given in a specific manner, that none need err. They
were designed to guard the sacredness of the ten precepts
engraved on the tables of stone.
If man had kept the law of God, as given to Adam after his fall,
preserved by Noah, and observed by Abraham, there would have
been no necessity for the ordinance of circumcision. And if the
descendants of Abraham had kept the covenant, of which
circumcision was a sign, they would never have been seduced into
idolatry, nor would it have been necessary for them to suffer a life
of bondage in Egypt; they would have kept God's law in mind, and
there would have been no necessity for it to be proclaimed from
Sinai or engraved upon the tables of stone. And had the people
practiced the principles of the Ten Commandments, there would
have been no need of the additional directions given to Moses.
The sacrificial system, committed to Adam, was also perverted by
his descendants. Superstition, idolatry, cruelty, and licentiousness
corrupted the simple and significant service that God had
appointed. Through long intercourse with idolaters the people of
Israel had mingled many heathen customs with their worship;
therefore the Lord gave them at Sinai definite instruction
concerning the sacrificial service. After the completion of the
tabernacle He communicated with Moses from the cloud of glory
above the mercy seat, and gave him full directions concerning the
system of offerings and the forms of worship to be maintained in
the sanctuary. The ceremonial law was thus given to Moses, and
by him written in a book. But the law of Ten Commandments
spoken from Sinai had been written by God Himself on the tables
of stone, and was sacredly preserved in the ark.
There are many who try to blend these two systems, using the texts
that speak of the ceremonial law to prove that the moral law has
been abolished; but this is a perversion of the Scriptures. The
distinction between the two systems is broad and clear. The
ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to
His sacrifice and His priesthood. This ritual law, with its sacrifices
and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type
met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh
away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to
cease. It is this law that Christ "took . . . out of the way, nailing it
to His cross." Colossians 2:14 . But concerning the law of Ten
Commandments the psalmist declares, "Forever, O Lord, Thy word
is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89. And Christ Himself says,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law. . . . Verily I say unto
you"--making the assertion as emphatic as possible--"Till heaven
and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the
law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17 , 18. Here He teaches, not
merely what the claims of God's law had been, and were then, but
that these claims should hold as long as the heavens and the earth
remain. The law of God is as immutable as His throne. It will
maintain its claims upon mankind in all ages.
Concerning the law proclaimed from Sinai, Nehemiah says, "Thou
camest down also upon Mount Sinai, and spakest with them from
heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good
statutes and commandments." Nehemiah 9:13 . And Paul, "the
apostle to the Gentiles," declares, "The law is holy, and the
commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:12 . This can
be no other than the Decalogue; for it is the law that says, "Thou
shalt not covet." Verse 7.
While the Saviour's death brought to an end the law of types and
shadows, it did not in the least detract from the obligation of the
moral law. On the contrary, the very fact that it was necessary for
Christ to die in order to atone for the transgression of that law,
proves it to be immutable.
Those who claim that Christ came to abrogate the law of God and
to do away with the Old Testament, speak of the Jewish age as
one of darkness, and represent the religion of the Hebrews as
consisting of mere forms and ceremonies. But this is an error. All
through the pages of sacred history, where the dealings of God
with His chosen people are recorded, there are burning traces of
the great I AM. Never has He given to the sons of men more open
manifestations of His power and glory than when He alone was
acknowledged as Israel's ruler, and gave the law to His people.
Here was a scepter swayed by no human hand; and the stately
goings forth of Israel's invisible King were unspeakably grand and
awful.
In all these revelations of the divine presence the glory of God was
manifested through Christ. Not alone at the Saviour's advent, but
through all the ages after the Fall and the promise of redemption,
"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2
Corinthians 5:19 . Christ was the foundation and center of the
sacrificial system in both the patriarchal and the Jewish age. Since
the sin of our first parents there has been no direct communication
between God and man. The Father has given the world into the
hands of Christ, that through His mediatorial work He may redeem
man and vindicate the authority and holiness of the law of God. All
the communion between heaven and the fallen race has been
through Christ. It was the Son of God that gave to our first parents
the promise of redemption. It was He who revealed Himself to the
patriarchs. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses
understood the gospel. They looked for salvation through man's
Substitute and Surety. These holy men of old held communion with
the Saviour who was to come to our world in human flesh; and
some of them talked with Christ and heavenly angels face to face.
Christ was not only the leader of the Hebrews in the wilderness--
the Angel in whom was the name of Jehovah, and who, veiled in
the cloudy pillar, went before the host--but it was He who gave the
law to Israel. [SEE APPENDIX, NOTE 7.] Amid the awful glory of
Sinai, Christ declared in the hearing of all the people the ten
precepts of His Father's law. It was He who gave to Moses the law
engraved upon the tables of stone.
It was Christ that spoke to His people through the prophets. The
apostle Peter, writing to the Christian church, says that the
prophets "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which
was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings
of Christ and the glory that should follow." 1 Peter 1:10 , 11. It is
the voice of Christ that speaks to us through the Old Testament.
"The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation
19:10 .
In His teachings while personally among men Jesus directed the
minds of the people to the Old Testament. He said to the Jews, "Ye
search the Scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal
life; and these are they which bear witness of Me." John 5:39 , R.V.
At this time the books of the Old Testament were the only part of
the Bible in existence. Again the Son of God declared, "They have
Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." And He added, "If
they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be
persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:29 , 31.
The ceremonial law was given by Christ. Even after it was no
longer to be observed, Paul presented it before the Jews in its true
position and value, showing its place in the plan of redemption and
its relation to the work of Christ; and the great apostle pronounces
this law glorious, worthy of its divine Originator. The solemn
service of the sanctuary typified the grand truths that were to be
revealed through successive generations. The cloud of incense
ascending with the prayers of Israel represents His righteousness
that alone can make the sinner's prayer acceptable to God; the
bleeding victim on the altar of sacrifice testified of a Redeemer to
come; and from the holy of holies the visible token of the divine
Presence shone forth. Thus through age after age of darkness and
apostasy faith was kept alive in the hearts of men until the time
came for the advent of the promised Messiah.
Jesus was the light of His people--the Light of the world--before He
came to earth in the form of humanity. The first gleam of light that
pierced the gloom in which sin had wrapped the world, came from
Christ. And from Him has come every ray of heaven's brightness
that has fallen upon the inhabitants of the earth. In the plan of
redemption Christ is the Alpha and the Omega--the First and the
Last.
Since the Saviour shed His blood for the remission of sins, and
ascended to heaven "to appear in the presence of God for
us" ( Hebrews 9:24 ), light has been streaming from the cross of
Calvary and from the holy places of the sanctuary above. But the
clearer light granted us should not cause us to despise that which
in earlier times was received through the types pointing to the
coming Saviour. The gospel of Christ sheds light upon the Jewish
economy and gives significance to the ceremonial law. As new
truths are revealed, and that which has been known from the
beginning is brought into clearer light, the character and purposes
of God are made manifest in His dealings with His chosen people.
Every additional ray of light that we receive gives us a clearer
understanding of the plan of redemption, which is the working out
of the divine will in the salvation of man. We see new beauty and
force in the inspired word, and we study its pages with a deeper
and more absorbing interest.

blueAgent:



Even Jesus confessed that he has God's law in his heart.


Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm
40:8. And when among men He said, "The Father hath not left Me
alone; for I do always those things that please Him." John 8:29

You need to learn how to read with meditation!

Jesus knew his father long before creation, that means everything he noticed his father doing means something to Jesus "this is how daddy wants things to be done"

You need not start writing a lengthy epistle for a child who loves watching everything you do, because each step is your law.

No wonder God told the Israelites to inculcate his laws in the hearts of their children by THEIR OWN ACTIONS {Deuteronomy 6:7} that's how Jesus knew God's laws NOT by a written code!

Maximus69:


This is blueAgent, not an Orangutan.

So it's not compulsory he finds people holding his point of view!

Sebi you were against the same line of thought!

Now you're suggesting what you've been referring to as "ORANGUTAN"

You will know the truth and the truth will set you free~Jesus

That's if you welcome the truth with open harms!

Unlike you, blueAgent isn't proud, boastful nor abusive. blueAgent is cultured and speaks clearly and boldly of what he believes. He is clearly not a slave of his own denomination. And for your information, even though we take opposing stance on the issue in question, he is mature and highly respected.

Those who behave like the Orangutan should take note.

shadeyinka:

Unlike you, blueAgent isn't proud, boastful nor abusive. blueAgent is cultured and speaks clearly and boldly of what he believes. He is clearly not a slave of his own denomination. And for your information, even though we take opposing stance on the issue in question, he is mature and highly respected.

Those who behave like the Orangutan should take note.

So since he's not a slave of his own religious group, have you now made him your PERSONAL slave?

Keep deceiving yourself, he is not a slave of his denomination yet he has maintained his stance on what his church taught him!

Kwantinu!

Can you please break this down to points?

I get pieced off by lengthy write-ups!

blueAgent:





Here's SOP comment from "Patriaches and Prophets" on this...I
had questions on the laws, moral vs ceremonial, Old vs New
Covenant...It really cleared up for me.
Chap. 32 - The Law and the Covenants
Adam and Eve, at their creation, had a knowledge of the law of
God; they were acquainted with its claims upon them; its precepts
were written upon their hearts. When man fell by transgression the
law was not changed, but a remedial system was established to
bring him back to obedience. The promise of a Saviour was given,
and sacrificial offerings pointing forward to the death of Christ as
the great sin offering were established. But had the law of God
never been transgressed, there would have been no death, and no
need of a Saviour; consequently there would have been no need of
sacrifices.
Adam taught his descendants the law of God, and it was handed
down from father to son through successive generations. But
notwithstanding the gracious provision for man's redemption, there
were few who accepted it and rendered obedience. By
transgression the world became so vile that it was necessary to
cleanse it by the Flood from its corruption. The law was preserved
by Noah and his family, and Noah taught his descendants the Ten
Commandments. As men again departed from God, the Lord chose
Abraham, of whom He declared, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and
kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
Genesis 26:5 . To him was given the rite of circumcision, which
was a sign that those who received it were devoted to the service
of God--a pledge that they would remain separate from idolatry,
and would obey the law of God. The failure of Abraham's
descendants to keep this pledge, as shown in their disposition to
form alliances with the heathen and adopt their practices, was the
cause of their sojourn and bondage in Egypt. But in their
intercourse with idolaters, and their forced submission to the
Egyptians, the divine precepts became still further corrupted with
the vile and cruel teachings of heathenism. Therefore when the
Lord brought them forth from Egypt, He came down upon Sinai,
enshrouded in glory and surrounded by His angels, and in awful
majesty spoke His law in the hearing of all the people.
He did not even then trust His precepts to the memory of a people
who were prone to forget His requirements, but wrote them upon
tables of stone. He would remove from Israel all possibility of
mingling heathen traditions with His holy precepts, or of
confounding His requirements with human ordinances or customs.
But He did not stop with giving them the precepts of the
Decalogue. The people had shown themselves so easily led astray
that He would leave no door of temptation unguarded. Moses was
commanded to write, as God should bid him, judgments and laws
giving minute instruction as to what was required. These directions
relating to the duty of the people to God, to one another, and to the
stranger were only the principles of the Ten Commandments
amplified and given in a specific manner, that none need err. They
were designed to guard the sacredness of the ten precepts
engraved on the tables of stone.
If man had kept the law of God, as given to Adam after his fall,
preserved by Noah, and observed by Abraham, there would have
been no necessity for the ordinance of circumcision. And if the
descendants of Abraham had kept the covenant, of which
circumcision was a sign, they would never have been seduced into
idolatry, nor would it have been necessary for them to suffer a life
of bondage in Egypt; they would have kept God's law in mind, and
there would have been no necessity for it to be proclaimed from
Sinai or engraved upon the tables of stone. And had the people
practiced the principles of the Ten Commandments, there would
have been no need of the additional directions given to Moses.
The sacrificial system, committed to Adam, was also perverted by
his descendants. Superstition, idolatry, cruelty, and licentiousness
corrupted the simple and significant service that God had
appointed. Through long intercourse with idolaters the people of
Israel had mingled many heathen customs with their worship;
therefore the Lord gave them at Sinai definite instruction
concerning the sacrificial service. After the completion of the
tabernacle He communicated with Moses from the cloud of glory
above the mercy seat, and gave him full directions concerning the
system of offerings and the forms of worship to be maintained in
the sanctuary. The ceremonial law was thus given to Moses, and
by him written in a book. But the law of Ten Commandments
spoken from Sinai had been written by God Himself on the tables
of stone, and was sacredly preserved in the ark.
There are many who try to blend these two systems, using the texts
that speak of the ceremonial law to prove that the moral law has
been abolished; but this is a perversion of the Scriptures. The
distinction between the two systems is broad and clear. The
ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to
His sacrifice and His priesthood. This ritual law, with its sacrifices
and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type
met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh
away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to
cease. It is this law that Christ "took . . . out of the way, nailing it
to His cross." Colossians 2:14 . But concerning the law of Ten
Commandments the psalmist declares, "Forever, O Lord, Thy word
is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89. And Christ Himself says,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law. . . . Verily I say unto
you"--making the assertion as emphatic as possible--"Till heaven
and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the
law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17 , 18. Here He teaches, not
merely what the claims of God's law had been, and were then, but
that these claims should hold as long as the heavens and the earth
remain. The law of God is as immutable as His throne. It will
maintain its claims upon mankind in all ages.
Concerning the law proclaimed from Sinai, Nehemiah says, "Thou
camest down also upon Mount Sinai, and spakest with them from
heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good
statutes and commandments." Nehemiah 9:13 . And Paul, "the
apostle to the Gentiles," declares, "The law is holy, and the
commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:12 . This can
be no other than the Decalogue; for it is the law that says, "Thou
shalt not covet." Verse 7.
While the Saviour's death brought to an end the law of types and
shadows, it did not in the least detract from the obligation of the
moral law. On the contrary, the very fact that it was necessary for
Christ to die in order to atone for the transgression of that law,
proves it to be immutable.
Those who claim that Christ came to abrogate the law of God and
to do away with the Old Testament, speak of the Jewish age as
one of darkness, and represent the religion of the Hebrews as
consisting of mere forms and ceremonies. But this is an error. All
through the pages of sacred history, where the dealings of God
with His chosen people are recorded, there are burning traces of
the great I AM. Never has He given to the sons of men more open
manifestations of His power and glory than when He alone was
acknowledged as Israel's ruler, and gave the law to His people.
Here was a scepter swayed by no human hand; and the stately
goings forth of Israel's invisible King were unspeakably grand and
awful.
In all these revelations of the divine presence the glory of God was
manifested through Christ. Not alone at the Saviour's advent, but
through all the ages after the Fall and the promise of redemption,
"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2
Corinthians 5:19 . Christ was the foundation and center of the
sacrificial system in both the patriarchal and the Jewish age. Since
the sin of our first parents there has been no direct communication
between God and man. The Father has given the world into the
hands of Christ, that through His mediatorial work He may redeem
man and vindicate the authority and holiness of the law of God. All
the communion between heaven and the fallen race has been
through Christ. It was the Son of God that gave to our first parents
the promise of redemption. It was He who revealed Himself to the
patriarchs. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses
understood the gospel. They looked for salvation through man's
Substitute and Surety. These holy men of old held communion with
the Saviour who was to come to our world in human flesh; and
some of them talked with Christ and heavenly angels face to face.
Christ was not only the leader of the Hebrews in the wilderness--
the Angel in whom was the name of Jehovah, and who, veiled in
the cloudy pillar, went before the host--but it was He who gave the
law to Israel. [SEE APPENDIX, NOTE 7.] Amid the awful glory of
Sinai, Christ declared in the hearing of all the people the ten
precepts of His Father's law. It was He who gave to Moses the law
engraved upon the tables of stone.
It was Christ that spoke to His people through the prophets. The
apostle Peter, writing to the Christian church, says that the
prophets "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which
was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings
of Christ and the glory that should follow." 1 Peter 1:10 , 11. It is
the voice of Christ that speaks to us through the Old Testament.
"The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation
19:10 .
In His teachings while personally among men Jesus directed the
minds of the people to the Old Testament. He said to the Jews, "Ye
search the Scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal
life; and these are they which bear witness of Me." John 5:39 , R.V.
At this time the books of the Old Testament were the only part of
the Bible in existence. Again the Son of God declared, "They have
Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." And He added, "If
they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be
persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:29 , 31.
The ceremonial law was given by Christ. Even after it was no
longer to be observed, Paul presented it before the Jews in its true
position and value, showing its place in the plan of redemption and
its relation to the work of Christ; and the great apostle pronounces
this law glorious, worthy of its divine Originator. The solemn
service of the sanctuary typified the grand truths that were to be
revealed through successive generations. The cloud of incense
ascending with the prayers of Israel represents His righteousness
that alone can make the sinner's prayer acceptable to God; the
bleeding victim on the altar of sacrifice testified of a Redeemer to
come; and from the holy of holies the visible token of the divine
Presence shone forth. Thus through age after age of darkness and
apostasy faith was kept alive in the hearts of men until the time
came for the advent of the promised Messiah.
Jesus was the light of His people--the Light of the world--before He
came to earth in the form of humanity. The first gleam of light that
pierced the gloom in which sin had wrapped the world, came from
Christ. And from Him has come every ray of heaven's brightness
that has fallen upon the inhabitants of the earth. In the plan of
redemption Christ is the Alpha and the Omega--the First and the
Last.
Since the Saviour shed His blood for the remission of sins, and
ascended to heaven "to appear in the presence of God for
us" ( Hebrews 9:24 ), light has been streaming from the cross of
Calvary and from the holy places of the sanctuary above. But the
clearer light granted us should not cause us to despise that which
in earlier times was received through the types pointing to the
coming Saviour. The gospel of Christ sheds light upon the Jewish
economy and gives significance to the ceremonial law. As new
truths are revealed, and that which has been known from the
beginning is brought into clearer light, the character and purposes
of God are made manifest in His dealings with His chosen people.
Every additional ray of light that we receive gives us a clearer
understanding of the plan of redemption, which is the working out
of the divine will in the salvation of man. We see new beauty and
force in the inspired word, and we study its pages with a deeper
and more absorbing interest.

blueAgent:


I do not depend on any useless commentary in order to proof my point.

I gave you Bible verses that shows that God, Holy spirit and Jesus are our witness.

If that is not sufficient then you forget it.

All bible commentaries are useless?

Maximus69:


So since he's not a slave of his own religious group, have you now made him your PERSONAL slave?

Keep deceiving yourself, he is not a slave of his denomination yet he has maintained his stance on what his church taught him!

Kwantinu!

He is studying to show himself approved as a workman...who can rightly divide the word of truth. Here on this earth, blueAgent is no one's slave.

Does a slave have a mind of his own?

blueAgent:



You really confused.

This same commentary you quoted never said the saints are alive watching us, rather it says there faith and deeds are like a witness to us of God's faithfulness.
chapter 11.
Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, and all those who
suffered and died, “of whom the world was not worthy.”
But what does their “witnessing” refer to? Does it refer to their
watching us from heaven? Or does it refer their witnessing to us by
their lives? The word “witness” can have either meaning: the act of
seeing something, or the act of telling something. Which is it here? I
think it is the act of telling. The verb form of this word “witness” ( martureo) is used five times in Hebrews 11 (in verses 2, 4 [twice], 5, 39) and always refers to the giving of a (confirming) testimony rather than the mere watching of an event.
So I take the witnesses of Hebrews 12:1 to be the saints who have
run the race before us, and have gathered, as it were, along the
marathon route to say, through the testimony of their lives, “By faith I
finished, you can too!”
The best way to illustrate this, I think, is with Hebrews 11:4 , where
the writer speaks of Abel and says, “Through faith, though he is dead, he
still speaks.” So Abel is in the cloud of witnesses, and he is
witnessing to us by his life through the Scriptures. This is the way all
the witnesses of Hebrews 11 are helping us. They have gathered along
the sidelines of our race and they hold out their wounds and their joys and give us the
best high-fives we ever got: “Go for it! You can do it. By faith, you can
finish.
You can lay the weights down and the sins. By faith, by the assurance
of better things hoped for, you can do it. I did it. And I know it can be
done.Run. Run!”
So be encouraged when you plan your fall run with Jesus. There are
dozens and hundreds and thousands of those who have gone before
and who have finished the race by faith and surround us like a great cloud
of witnesses who say: “It can be done! By faith, it can be done.”

The question was:
Who are the Cloud of Witnesses?
The question, has been answered.

Other questions now could be:
1. Who is a witness
2. Is there a difference between Witnesses and Evidences?
3. Can a witness be a Corpse or non living thing?

shadeyinka:

He is studying to show himself approved as a workman...who can rightly divide the word of truth. Here on this earth, blueAgent is no one's slave.

Does a slave have a mind of his own?

Luke 17:10!

Maximus69:
Can you please break this down to points?
I get pieced off by lengthy write-ups!

The question for this study is whether God gave a set of commandments that was new and different from the commandments that God gave to His people before Israel? We know that God had given commandments, statutes, and laws to Abraham according to Genesis 26:5. It is the view of this writer that the commandments, laws, and statutes given to Abraham were the same laws given to Israel and I would like to share a few of the reasons why this is the case. The central concept of Bible issues is the unchangeable nature of God. The Bible says that God does not change (James 1:17). The Bible says that Jesus does not change for He is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:. So when God does something He wants it to stand forever. Humanity changes but God does not. God has stated that He is the Truth (John 14:6). The Truth does not change, for it is always the Truth. In Psalms 119:142, 151 God says that His Law is the Truth. The Truth has always been existence for God has always been in existence. The Truth does not go away due to circumstances. When Adam sinned he sinned against the law of God for sin is the transgression of the law (I John 3:4). Therefore the Bible testifies that God’s laws were present in Eden because sin can not occur without violating the laws of God. God, as the Creator, testified that He created the Sabbath at the Creation as the capstone on the creation week (Genesis 2:1-3). Jesus, the Christ (I Corinthians 10:1-4) is the Creator (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:13-18). Jesus, the Creator, stated in Mark 2:27-28 that He created the Sabbath for all mankind, not for Israel only. Jesus, the Author of the Bible (I Peter 1:10-12), continues to point us back to the Creation as the justification of keeping the Sabbath (Exodus 20:8-11; Exodus 31:12-17; Revelation 14:7). God does not point us to Sinai as the justification of the Sabbath but to the Creation. We know that Abel was righteous (Hebrews 11:4) for he offered a more excellent sacrifice to God and Cain did not. The righteousness of Abel was because he was interested in obeying God and His commandments. In Genesis 3:21 God introduced the sacrificial system which many people believe was introduced at Mt. Sinai. Abel obeyed God’s sacrificial system as well as kept God’s commandments for Abel was a righteous man. In Hebrews 11:5 God says that Enoch “pleased” God because he followed and obeyed God. Enoch was not out of harmony with the will of God and God took him to heaven without seeing death. Enoch was not against the will of God and therefore was a commandment keeper, including the Sabbath.

Maximus69:


So since he's not a slave of his own religious group, have you now made him your PERSONAL slave?

Keep deceiving yourself, he is not a slave of his denomination yet he has maintained his stance on what his church taught him!

Kwantinu!

Am not loyal to any Church but the word of God.

The false trinity doctrine has crept its way into my Church, but I boldly wrote against it.

blueAgent:



The question for this study is whether God gave a set of commandments
that was new and different from the commandments that God gave to
His people before Israel? We know that God had given commandments,
statutes, and laws to Abraham according to Genesis 26:5. It is the view
of this writer that the commandments, laws, and statutes given to
Abraham were the same laws given to Israel and I would like to share a
few of the reasons why this is the case.
The central concept of Bible issues is the unchangeable nature of God.
The Bible says that God does not change (James 1:17). The Bible says
that Jesus does not change for He is the same yesterday, today, and
forever (Hebrews 13:. So when God does something He wants it to
stand forever. Humanity changes but God does not.
God has stated that He is the Truth (John 14:6). The Truth does not
change, for it is always the Truth. In Psalms 119:142, 151 God says that
His Law is the Truth. The Truth has always been existence for God has
always been in existence. The Truth does not go away due to
circumstances.
When Adam sinned he sinned against the law of God for sin is the
transgression of the law (I John 3:4). Therefore the Bible testifies that
God’s laws were present in Eden because sin can not occur without
violating the laws of God.
God, as the Creator, testified that He created the Sabbath at the Creation
as the capstone on the creation week (Genesis 2:1-3). Jesus, the Christ
(I Corinthians 10:1-4) is the Creator (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:13-18).
Jesus, the Creator, stated in Mark 2:27-28 that He created the Sabbath
for all mankind, not for Israel only. Jesus, the Author of the Bible (I Peter
1:10-12), continues to point us back to the Creation as the justification of
keeping the Sabbath (Exodus 20:8-11; Exodus 31:12-17; Revelation 14:7).
God does not point us to Sinai as the justification of the Sabbath but to
the Creation.
We know that Abel was righteous (Hebrews 11:4) for he offered a more
excellent sacrifice to God and Cain did not. The righteousness of Abel
was because he was interested in obeying God and His commandments.
In Genesis 3:21 God introduced the sacrificial system which many people
believe was introduced at Mt. Sinai. Abel obeyed God’s sacrificial system
as well as kept God’s commandments for Abel was a righteous man.
In Hebrews 11:5 God says that Enoch “pleased” God because he followed
and obeyed God. Enoch was not out of harmony with the will of God and
God took him to heaven without seeing death. Enoch was not against the
will of God and therefore was a commandment keeper, including the
Sabbath.

So far it's not written anywhere in the Bible, we will not accept it!

What's written in the Bible is that God presented his laws to Moses who in turn presented it to the Israelites. Apart from this there is nowhere in the Bible that says God gave any WRITTEN law before then!

shadeyinka:

The question was:
Who are the Cloud of Witnesses?
The question, has been answered.

Other questions now could be:
1. Who is a witness
2. Is there a difference between Witnesses and Evidences?
3. Can a witness be a Corpse or non living thing?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/witness.

Look a the Greek translation of the word written as witness than you will understand that it is not referring to something that is alive and watching.

Maximus69:


Luke 17:10!

I am in perfect agreement with Lk17:10.
Luk 17:10:
"So likewise you, when you shall have done all the things commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants, for we have done what we ought to do."

shadeyinka:
All bible commentaries are useless?

Not all.
But anyone that contradicts any part of the Bible Is useless.

blueAgent:


Not all.

But anyone that contradicts any part of the Bible Is useless.

Surely, you must have at least one who teaches that the cloud of witnesses are God, Jesus and the Angels?

Maximus69:


So far it's not written anywhere in the Bible, we will not accept it!

What's written in the Bible is that God presented his laws to Moses who in turn presented it to the Israelites. Apart from this there is nowhere in the Bible that says God gave any WRITTEN law before then!

So you need to see where it is written?

The one Abraham obeyed who gave him?

blueAgent:



Am not loyal to any Church but the word of God.

The false trinity doctrine has crept its way into my Church, but I boldly wrote against it.

So presently you're churchless!

No wonder Shadeyinka is so much interested in your case, he is not as churchless as you're but the doctrines of his church means nothing to him!

He said "Church doctrines does not define me" So his ECWA is not that Christian to the level he could strongly hold on to what's been taught there!

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, everything that comes from our own Governing Body means directives from the one who appointed them (Jesus) and not just the one who appointed them but the one who also chose that one(Jehovah)

So you're now members of the same congregation, "the congregation of churchless individuals whose beliefs can't be defined by any specific organization!