Image123:


Would you believe if i say yes? Are you asking because you lack joy?



Is your conscience different from the conscience of a dog or a rat?

Is my conscience the magic sky daddy?

Do you have an evidence of this so called accountability?

Image123:


You don't have money to buy your wish? Jesus saves.

So you can't turn water to wine right? Why because it doesn't happen by chance? LMFAO!

LordReed:



Is my conscience the magic sky daddy?

Do you have an evidence of this so called accountability?

Fail

LordReed:


So you can't turn water to wine right? Why because it doesn't happen by chance? LMFAO!

Eeyah, no money. Do eye problems vanish by chance? Do legs shorter than the other grow to right same size by chance? For one who thinks that the earth and its inhabitants happened by chance, i should be the one mocking. But what do i know? Your boss pulls your strings as he chooses. Tomorrow, he may just tell you to commit another crime.

Image123:


Fail

Failure

Image123:


Eeyah, no money. Do eye problems vanish by chance? Do legs shorter than the other grow to right same size by chance? For one who thinks that the earth and its inhabitants happened by chance, i should be the one mocking. But what do i know? Your boss pulls your strings as he chooses. Tomorrow, he may just tell you to commit another crime.

Bwahahahahaha! Audio saving on display. Go and heal coronavirus patients with your Jesus magic let's see. Meanwhile you safely in your house typing audio saving bullcrap. LMFAO!

LordReed:


Failure

You know it best. Eeyah

LordReed:


Bwahahahahaha! Audio saving on display. Go and heal coronavirus patients with your Jesus magic let's see. Meanwhile you safely in your house typing audio saving bullcrap. LMFAO!

Actually, i've been moving up and down almost like your dad the devil just not looking for whom to devour. But it's good and advisable to stay safe,it's a biblical practice. When leprosy was incurable, God told His children to quarantine and maintain proper hygiene. Follow the bible and don't be unfortunate reed riding hood.

Image123:


You know it best. Eeyah

Image123:


Actually, i've been moving up and down almost like your dad the devil just not looking for whom to devour. But it's good and advisable to stay safe,it's a biblical practice. When leprosy was incurable, God told His children to quarantine and maintain proper hygiene. Follow the bible and don't be unfortunate reed riding hood.

Bwahahahahaha! Once a Christian starts with the devil stuff you know they've gone ballistic.

Go and heal coronavirus with Jesus magic let's see. LMFAO!

LordReed:


Bwahahahahaha! Once a Christian starts with the devil stuff you know they've gone ballistic.

Go and heal coronavirus with Jesus magic let's see. LMFAO!

Bring them to Jesus.

Image123:


Bring them to Jesus.

Audio Jesus. Bwahahahahaha!

You don't get it, do you?. It is very simple pal. I'm not interested in your stories. Bring another Qur'an that is different from what we have today. Only then your stories are credible. Otherwise your are wasting your precious time, buddy

You don't believe in prophet muhammad (saw) but you are talking about variant recommended by the prophet that you don't believe in.

Stop wasting your time and do the needful. What you are doing here is like you are in court of law trying to convince the judge about what happened. You keep telling judge stories until judge asks you for evidence. Instead of providing evidence you keep giving stories. What do you think judge would do to your case?. You would throw your case out of the window which means your stories lack substance. I know you africans like to believe White nonmuslims because you feel good about their trash.

Keep watching him buddy.

sagenaija:


Did you watch the video?
I doubt if you did. Typical Moslem fashion.
If you did you wouldn't be going on the road you're on.

How did Abu Bakar compile the Koran?
Was it on Allah's instructions?

When Uthman made his Koran why did he destroy some other 'Koran'?
Why did he make changes to his compilation?

What of Al-Hajjaj's involvement in Koranic 'metamorphosis'? Why did he destroy competing copies and even refused to use the variant of a man who had been recommended by the prophet Mohamed?

What was Uthman's family's reaction to what Al-Hajjaj did in destroying copies of the Koran prior to his 'revision'?

If, in spite of all these, you refuse to accept the reality of the 'evolution' of your Koran and you don't see that as DENIAL then the problem you are faced with may be more than that of denial.

Empiree:
You don't get it, do you?. It is very simple pal. I'm not interested in your stories. Bring another Qur'an that is different from what we have today. Only then your stories are credible. Otherwise your are wasting your precious time, buddy

You don't believe in prophet muhammad (saw) but you are talking about variant recommended by the prophet that you don't believe in.

Stop wasting your time and do the needful. What you are doing here is like you are in court of law trying to convince the judge about what happened. You keep telling judge stories until judge asks you for evidence. Instead of providing evidence you keep giving stories. What do you think judge would do to your case?. You would throw your case out of the window which means your stories lack substance. I know you africans like to believe White nonmuslims because you feel good about their trash.

Keep watching him buddy.

Stories. Evidence.

I know you Empiree.

One thing I know about you is that you lack depth.

Now, back to your stories and evidence. If a Judge asks a person to provide evidence to show or prove that he was not at a crime scene or location and the person goes at length to tell the story of a meeting he was involved in a hundred kilometres away giving graphic details of what went on and when, can his STORY become an EVIDENCE that may lead to him being believed?

So, when you rant and rave about stories and judges it only shows that you are shallow.

The truth is that the STORIES of Islam are what shows Islam for what it is. You simply CANNOT divorce Islam from its stories.

They are not my stories. They are Islam's stories.

For example, how did you come to know what you know about Mohamed? Obviously from the stories of Islam. Because the Koran has little to say about the lifestyle of Mohamed who Moslems are supposed to emulate. You have to resort to STORIES about him to get picture of his lifestyle.

Do you see then that it is impossible for you as a Moslem to discountenance Islam's stories?

Do the stories of Islam tell us that the Koran has been changed and amended over time and the earlier or previous versions destroyed?
The answer is: YES!

But because you know where they may lead you to, you must DENY any presentation of Islamic history especially when presented by others who are non-Moslems. The fact that they are quoting from islamic sources is pushed aside by you. You don't want to face the reality. You want to stick to your FANTASY.

You end up living, like I said, in DENIAL. You don't get it yet, do you?

So, it's simple: keep living in your FANTASY world or face the REALITY and TRUTH. The choice is yours.

You are still telling stories. Bring out those missing links of Qur'an. Only then I can reason with you. Otherwise you are wasting your time


As for your claim that the stories are from Islamic sources, this is easily debunked. Have you ever heard of orientalists?. They worked on so many Islamic texts except Qur'an bcuz Quran is Divinely protected.

Do you know that a famous movie about Islamic history titled The Message, most of the cast were nonmuslims yet they perfectly played the role. They are called orientalists or mutashriqun. They have written and inserted false narratives in islamic texts. That is why you always see oyinbo people cling to such narratives and sell it to aguntan like you bcuz they know that you have no sense.

Thank God for Qur'an. It is a furqan(criterion) with which we discern truth from falsehood. Mutashriqun will always try to avoid Qur'an and rely on silly narrative.

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]

Stories. Evidence.

I know you Empir.ee.

One thing I know about you is that you lack depth.

Now, back to your stories and evidence. If a Judge asks a person to provide evidence to show or prove that he was not at a crime scene or location and the person goes at length to tell the story of a meeting he was involved in a hundred kilometres away giving graphic details of what went on and when, can his STORY become an EVIDENCE that may lead to him being believed?

So, when you rant and rave about stories and judges it only shows that you are shallow.

The truth is that the STORIES of Islam are what shows Islam for what it is. You simply CANNOT divorce Islam from its stories.

They are not my stories. They are Islam's stories.

For example, how did you come to know what you know about Mohamed? Obviously from the stories of Islam. Because the Koran has little to say about the lifestyle of Mohamed who Moslems are supposed to emulate. You have to resort to STORIES about him to get picture of his lifestyle.

Do you see then that it is impossible for you as a Moslem to discountenance Islam's stories?

Do the stories of Islam tell us that the Koran has been changed and amended over time and the earlier or previous versions destroyed?
The answer is: YES!

But because you know where they may lead you to, you must DENY any presentation of Islamic history especially when presented by others who are non-Moslems. The fact that they are quoting from islamic sources is pushed aside by you. You don't want to face the reality. You want to stick to your FANTASY.

You end up living, like I said, in DENIAL. You don't get it yet, do you?

So, it's simple: keep living in your FANTASY world or face the REALITY and TRUTH. The choice is yours.

Empiree:
You are still telling stories. Bring out those missing links of Qur'an. Only then I can reason with you. Otherwise you are wasting your time


As for your claim that the stories are from Islamic sources, this is easily debunked. Have you ever heard of orientalists?. They worked on so many Islamic texts except Qur'an bcuz Quran is Divinely protected.

Do you know that a famous movie about Islamic history titled The Message, most of the cast were nonmuslims yet they perfectly played the role. They are called orientalists or mutashriqun. They have written and inserted false narratives in islamic texts. That is why you always see oyinbo people cling to such narratives and sell it to aguntan like you bcuz they know that you have no sense.

Thank God for Qur'an. It is a furqan(criterion) with which we discern truth from falsehood. Mutashriqun will always try to avoid Qur'an and rely on silly narrative.

This is an answer for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUsMu6FymcM

You Moslems kill a lot of rams that it's possible that some of you end believing that you are like them. And you begin to behave like them. Empiree, are you one of such?

You are already trying to deny your hadiths. Whao!

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
This is an answer for you:
https://youtu....be/LUsMu6FymcM

You Moslems kill a lot of rams that it's possible that some of you end believing that you are like them. And you begin to behave like them. Emp..iree, are you one of such?

You are already trying to deny your hadiths. Whao!

as usual, white man is your safety net. They downloaded everything in your head and you take it hook line and sinker.

The guy is talking rubbish and I'm not in mood to refute nonsense he says.


Oh, you said Muslims kill lots of Rams. Very well then. We slaughter RAMs as a result of covenant made btw God and Abraham (as). So we follow Abraham religious practices who is father of faith. Maybe you forgot Genesis 22:1-20

So rethink your stance.

Empiree:
as usual, white man is your safety net. They downloaded everything in your head and you take it hook line and sinker.

The guy is talking rubbish and I'm not in mood to refute nonsense he says.


Oh, you said Muslims kill lots of Rams. Very well then. We slaughter RAMs as a result of covenant made btw God and Abraham (as). So we follow Abraham religious practices who is father of faith. Maybe you forgot Genesis 22:1-20

So rethink your stance.

I knew you were going to say that your first sentence. But do you remember that I have shown you an Arab - Christian Prince - sometime ago? Maybe you will still call that one an 'Oyinbo'.

In case you still regard that as a white man let's have a go at it without them. You said we try to avoid the Koran and go into stories. Let us go into the Koran.

Can you see a clear contradiction between Koran 3:45 and 19:17?

With such glaring mistake can you still claim it  is a criterion to discern truth from falsehood?

Who exactly was sent to Mary; was it Spirit or angels?

If it was angels, how many angels were sent to Mary; was it an angel or a number of angels?

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
I knew you were going to say that your first sentence. But do you remember that I have shown you an Arab - Christian Prince - sometime ago? Maybe you will still call that one an 'Oyinbo'.

In case you still regard that as a white man let's have a go at it without them. You said we try to avoid the Koran and go into stories. Let us go into the Koran.

Can you see a clear contradiction between Koran 3:45 and 19:17?

With such glaring mistake can you still claim it  is a criterion to discern truth from falsehood?

Who exactly was sent to Mary; was it Spirit or angels?

If it was angels, how many angels were sent to Mary; was it an angel or a number of angels?

smh...what's contradiction here?. Or you ran out of ideas?.

3:45 was a good news 19:17 was a process of event..how's that contradiction?.


Spirit and Angel, what's their difference according to you?.

Angel Jubril (Gabriel) was sent to her.

You are learning new things from CP right?. You are in for a failure

Empiree:
smh...what's contradiction here?. Or you ran out of ideas?.

3:45 was a good news 19:17 was a process of event..how's that contradiction?.


Spirit and Angel, what's their difference according to you?.

Angel Jubril (Gabriel) was sent to her.

You are learning new things from CP right?. You are in for a failure

Looks like CP has been giving you sleepless nights!

Remember, you said we should leave out stories and stick to the Koran. And the Koran is supposed to make things clear; isn't it?

So, please help me out here: How is one a "good news" and the other a "process of events"?

Secondly, where in the Koran did it say that the Spirit is angel Gabriel?

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
Looks like CP has been giving you sleepless nights!

Remember, you said we should leave out stories and stick to the Koran. And the Koran is supposed to make things clear; isn't it?

So, please help me out here: How is one a "good news" and the other a "process of events"?

Secondly, where in the Koran did it say that the Spirit is angel Gabriel?

your problem is once you made up your mind there is nothing anyone can do.

3:45 and 9:17 gave mary good news of a baby boy in advance. 9:17 provided details if you read subsequent verses. It is not difficult, bro. You will continue to see things the way you want it and I can't help your with that.

Both verses gave good news, period.

Empiree:
your problem is once you have up your mind there is nothing anyone can do.

3:45 and 9:17 gave mary good news of a baby boy in advance. 9:17 provided details if you read subsequent verses. It is not difficult, bro. You will continue to see things the way you want it and I can't help your with that.

Both verses gave good news, period.

Everyone reading us can immediately see that you are the one doing what you are accusing me of - you've made up your mind. So, you don't even focus. You don't look at the other person's point but just comment.

You are even quoting the wrong chapter - a further proof of your stance of not focusing on the issues. Are you afraid of something? I know you're very superstitious.

Now to our main issue:
You have moved from one is a "good news" and the other a "process of events" now to "Both verses gave good news, period."

You're trying to get away from my questions aren't you?

Is that all you can do Empiree? Smh!

Chapter 3:45
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].

Chapter 19:17
And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel, and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.

clearquran.com :-
She screened herself away from them, and We sent to her Our spirit, and He appeared to her as an immaculate human.


Chapter 3 says "angels said" (Notice the plural - ANGELS.
Chapter 19 says "Our angel" or "Our spirit" (Notice the singular usage - ANGEL; SPIRIT).

So, again:
Who exactly was sent to Mary; was it Spirit or angels?

If it was angels, how many angels were sent to Mary; was it an angel or a number of angels?

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
Everyone reading us can immediately see that you are the one doing what you are accusing me of - you've made up your mind. So, you don't even focus. You don't look at the other person's point but just comment.

You are even quoting the wrong chapter - a further proof of your stance of not focusing on the issues. Are you afraid of something? I know you're very superstitious.

Now to our main issue:
You have moved from one is a "good news" and the other a "process of events" now to "Both verses gave good news, period."

You're trying to get away from my questions aren't you?

Is that all you can do Empiree? Smh!

Chapter 3:45
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].

Chapter 19:17
And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel, and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.

clearquran.com :-
She screened herself away from them, and We sent to her Our spirit, and He appeared to her as an immaculate human.


Chapter 3 says "angels said" (Notice the plural - ANGELS.
Chapter 19 says "Our angel" or "Our spirit" (Notice the singular usage - ANGEL; SPIRIT).

So, again:
Who exactly was sent to Mary; was it Spirit or angels?

If it was angels, how many angels were sent to Mary; was it an angel or a number of angels?

doesn't matter what you say. I'm just trying to figure out your confusion. There verses are clear even outside their contexts but you want to create coffin for yourself.

Anyways I'm only answer the last part. There is only one angel Jubril. What is mentioned in 19:17 is ruhana. Which means Angel in this context. I sued your question earlier what is difference between Angel and Spirit according to you but your didn't answer.

Anyways, generally, any supernatural beings is considered "spirit" to us. Jinns, Angels are spirit.. Even coronavirus and other cities 3 are spirit to some people. Even according to the Bible God is spirit (John 4:24) but that doesn't mean it was God that appeared to Mary if that's where your are going because the verse is clear that ruhana was agent sent to Mary when she was in isolation. 19:17 We sent to her Our Angel.

It is the same Angel/ruh that's sent to our mothers womb. So to answer your question it was one Angel sent to Mary.

The last screenshot is from Christian theology. You can see Angel is spirit according to them.

[quote author=Empiree post=87727617] doesn't matter what you say. I'm just trying to figure out your confusion. There verses are clear even outside their contexts but you want to create coffin for yourself.

Anyways I'm only answer the last part. There is only one angel Jubril. What is mentioned in 19:17 is ruhana. Which means Angel in this context. I sued your question earlier what is difference between Angel and Spirit according to you but your didn't answer.

Anyways, generally, any supernatural beings is considered "spirit" to us. Jinns, Angels are spirit.. Even coronavirus and other cities 3 are spirit to some people. Even according to the Bible God is spirit (John 4:24) but that doesn't mean it was God that appeared to Mary if that's where your are going because the verse is clear that ruhana was agent sent to Mary when she was in isolation. 19:17 We sent to her Our Angel.

It is the same Angel/ruh that's sent to our mothers womb. So to answer your question it was one Angel sent to Mary.

The last screenshot is from Christian theology. You can see Angel is spirit according to them.[/quote]
Why did chapter 3 says "angels" - i. e. Plural which means more than one angel while the other chapter said singular?

How do you "in context" determine which word is for 'angel' and which one is for 'spirit'?

sagenaija:
[quote author=Empiree post=87727617] doesn't matter what you say. I'm just trying to figure out your confusion. There verses are clear even outside their contexts but you want to create coffin for yourself.

Anyways I'm only answer the last part. There is only one angel Jubril. What is mentioned in 19:17 is ruhana. Which means Angel in this context. I sued your question earlier what is difference between Angel and Spirit according to you but your didn't answer.

Anyways, generally, any supernatural beings is considered "spirit" to us. Jinns, Angels are spirit.. Even coronavirus and other cities 3 are spirit to some people. Even according to the Bible God is spirit (John 4:24) but that doesn't mean it was God that appeared to Mary if that's where your are going because the verse is clear that ruhana was agent sent to Mary when she was in isolation. 19:17 We sent to her Our Angel.

It is the same Angel/ruh that's sent to our mothers womb. So to answer your question it was one Angel sent to Mary.

The last screenshot is from Christian theology. You can see Angel is spirit according to them.
Why did chapter 3 says "angels" - i. e. Plural which means more than one angel while the other chapter said singular?

How do you "in context" determine which word is for 'angel' and which one is for 'spirit'?

Did you read to understand my post or you simply followed your whims?. I explained to you but you still asked same question. Okay, let's do it this way. What is RUHANA in that verse?.

Empiree:
Did you read to understand my post or you simply followed your whims?. I explained to you but you still asked same question. Okay, let's do it this way. What is RUHANA in that verse?.

I did not see RUHANA in any of the verses.

Are you thinking in English or in some other language? You need to properly explain yourself to be understood. Don't you think?

All I'm asking is why did one verse use singular "angel" and the other plural "angels". Is that so difficult to do? Can you just leave ridicule and simply answer the question or admit that you don't know. Claiming to have pointed out something or to have answered is another tactic to run away from answering. Bringing up words in Arabic or other languages is an attempt to simply blur the true picture.

sagenaija:
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I did not see RUHANA in any of the verses.

And you assumed you know better?. You are arguing with me blindly on my religion but you can read the Quran in arabic . Obviously, i see no reason to argue with you anymore on this. But for record, let post the arabic and highlight what you didnt see


فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا


What is RUHANA?.

All I'm asking is why did one verse use singular "angel" and the other plural "angels". Is that so difficult to do? Can you just leave ridicule and simply answer the question or admit that you don't know. Claiming to have pointed out something or to have answered is another tactic to run away from answering. Bringing up words in Arabic or other languages is an attempt to simply blur the true picture.

Okay, this below should answer you

1. There is NO indication that these verses refer to the same event.

If we examine the Qur'anic verses we can come up with an interpretation of the chronological order of events.


a. The angels announced to Mary pbuh the glad tidings of Jesus pbuh without giving any further details. (verse 3:45)

b. After the angels depart, Mary pbuh expresses her surprise in her prayer to God. (verse 3:47). The verse makes it clear that she is no longer talking to the angels because she says, "My Lord.."

c. An angel sent by God informs her that God is able to do all things (verse 3:47, "So (it will be) for Allâh creates what He wills."

d. After a period of time, Angel Gabriel is sent by God, and appears personally before Mary to inform her of the birth of Jesus pbuh (verse 19:19).

e. Here she asks the Angel directly (verse 19:20) how it is possible for her to have a child. And the Angel Gabriel replies as seen in verse 19:21.

The basis of this explanation is the usage of the words yubashiroke in Sura Al-Imran which means to give glad tidings of a coming event. On the other hand, the verse in Sura Maryam uses the wordsle ahaba lake which means to "present you with", implying that the event is to happen there.

An objection raised to this explanation is that Mary must be forgetful if she asks the same question having already recieved the answer. This is not necessarily the case. An event so surprising and unusual as this would easily explain her persistence in trying to understand how this is possible. Often people may be so bewildered by some news that they may repeat their inquiry in their surpirse, and that is not unusual.


2. Another simple and logical explanation that can be offered is that the it is not uncommon for the action of a single member of an organization to be attributed to the whole organization. In a hockey match, we may say that so-and-so scored the final goal, or we could say that such-and-such a team scored the final goal. It would not be a contradiction. So when Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and he gave her the glad tidings of a son, the action may be attributed to the angels, whether they were present or not, visible or not. This interpretation is supported by verse 3:47, which says that Mary asked how it could be possible and he (Angel Gabriel) replied, and not they (angels).

3. Another way to understand the verses is to examine a similar verse of the Qur'an:


41:30. In the case of those who say, "Our Lord is Allah., and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!" (they suggest), "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!

Here we are told that those who stand firm in Islam will have angels surrounding them and telling them not to fear. Obviously, this does not mean that the righteous people expect to hear these voices speaking to them, but rather it is the general feeling of peace and good inspired into the righteous person by these angels. The presence and words of the angels invoke a feeling of security.

Likewise, when we read the first passage about Mary, the angels speaking to her may just have been a general inspiration or notion that she would bear a child, and she continually wondered to Allah, as to how this was possible. And the answer given in 3:47 is Allah's answer inspired to her through the angels in the same fashion. Naturally, when the event was to occur and the Angel Gabriel physically appeared to her in the form of a man, she would voice this same concern to verify the inspiration she had been receiving.


Each of these three explanations is sufficient to a answer the allegation.

Jehovah Rapha

Empiree:
And you assumed you know better?. You are arguing with me blindly on my religion but you can read the Quran in arabic. Obviously, i see no reason to argue with you anymore on this. But for record, let post the arabic and highlight what you didnt see

فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا
What is RUHANA?.
Okay, this below should answer you

Empiree, the Koran is supposed to be clear or make things clear.

Where you can now have three ways of "interpretation" for one event how clear then is the Koran? If you come up with "Allah knows best" then that simply contradicts the Koran's claim to be clear - simple.

Wanting to convince and pacify yourself because you can come up with three different ways of interpretation may be ok for you but it simply means, to any objective evaluator, that the book which claims to be clear is really not so.

Are you saying that ANY one of your three positions is CORRECT ? If so, how does that sound to you? Is it that you can pick and choose which one to go with?  Again, if you say "Allah knows best" then it means the Koran has made a false claim to be a clear book.

Now, I would have taken your arguments one by one but because you seem to be missing out something I thought it best to go about it differently.

You seem to have forgotten that the chapters of the Koran were revealed in sequence and not at once. In this instance chapter 19 came before chapter 3 (why a book that already existed in heaven would not come in a chronological order is a story for another day).

So, in that sequence, angel Gabriel or the spirit first made the announcement but since Mary didn't believe ONE angel Allah had to send many angels to re-announce the message to her.

But do you notice that after the angel's (or Our spirit's) explanation to Mary in chapter 19 there was no further hesitation on the part of Mary? She went on to have her child.

Why then would it be necessary to send a battalion of angels at another time to her? If it is simply to convince her of Allah's decision. A decision she had already accepted.

Do you see where this is going? It simply debunks your three positions put together.

A hockey team is a TEAM working together. If a GROUP of angels are sent on assignment and one of them gives an announcement it MAY be ok to attribute it to the group. It would be CLEAR that they went out as a group. But where it is not so stated you would be engaging in the "magic of Islamic reinterpretation" to twist that portion to mean so.

Shouldn't the Koran simply say what it means instead of allowing the reader to read his beliefs or presuppositions into it?

On angel and 'Our spirit': Do you know the Koran in chapter 70:4 separate the angels from the spirit? And that there's no clear Koranic verse that says angel Gabriel IS THE SPIRIT? You have to do a lot of assumptions to conclude that angels and the spirit are the same thing according to the Koran.

So Empiree, all your three explanations do is to simply tell us that there's really no clear explanation of the two narratives. You have given us three. Another person may add a fourth and a fifth. "Allah knows best" so he has not really left for you guys a CLEAR book.

Empiree, a history of Islam for your weekend delight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAmil30UEPo

sagenaija:
Em,iree, a history of Islam for your weekend delight:
https://yo,utu.be/VAmil30UEPo

Too late for this, bro. Nothing wrong with islam and nothing will ever touch it. Yes, there were some historic muslim leaders or people who might have done questionable things but all that had nothing to do with islam. Quran is here to stay. Stop wasting your time. By the way, CP is not enough for you anymore?. This is probably 3rd time I am watching this white dude. Bro, pick up Quran and digest it. Quran is medicine. Quran is healing for the disease in your heart.

I am using the opportunity to reply to this and your other post simultaneously. It is unfortunate that you retorted to "sequence of Quran" after you realized you can not find relevant argument to support your position. You said if Quran claims to be clear why is there a need to have 3 interpretations for a verse if indeed Quran has explained all things?. Well, you lack understanding. Having multiple interpretations of a verse is not a question of whether Quran is clear or not. Rather, it gives possible meanings of the ayah relating to certain event or incident.

For instance Sura Kawsar, that chapter 108 of Quran and the shortest chapter. In verse 2 of the sura it reads:


So pray to your Lord and sacrifice [to Him alone].


The ayah is self explanatory whatever it means to you and me. From basic understanding of the verse, it is not talking about mandatory 5 daily prayers. It is talking about extra prayers a muslim offers between him and his Lord. After you finish, whether 3 days, 7 days, 21 days prayer etc, you then give sadaqa (alm giving to the poor). This is how many understood it till now. Some may have difference of opinion. But what is clear is the ayah say "pray and sacrifice" to Allah alone. That is all that is needed.

Now, in modern context in this age of COVID-19, I can also interpret the same verse in different way and it is still gonna give us same meaning of the ayah. You know why?. Because Quran was revealed to address the past فعل ماضي Fi'il madhi, presentفعل مضارع Fi'il Mudhori and the future. And also And فعل أمر fi'il Amr(Imperative). The first interpretation above is فعل مضارع i;e Fi'il Mudhori which means "present continuous tense". That's muslims will continue to Pray and Sacrifice until we die. But second interpretation about COVID-19 in relation to the same ayah means another type of sacrifice. I hope you are learning?. So COVID-19 is both Fi'il Mudhori and fi'il Amr.

In order for you to understand this, let me first take you to hadith of prophet Muhammad(SAW). There are hadiths from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) that forbid the Muslim to enter a land in which the plague is occurring, and also forbid him to leave a land in which the plague is occurring.


Al-Bukhaari (5739) and Muslim (2219) narrated from ‘Abd ar-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say: “If you hear that it (the plague) is in a land, do not go there, and if it breaks out in a land where you are, do not leave, fleeing from it.”

Did you see wisdom in this hadith yet?. I will come back to that in a minute. What I want to derive from this hadith is that if a muslim lives in a land where epidemic breaks out you should not leave the land and according to another hadith, a muslim who dies in a land where plague is occuring dies a death of shahid (martyr).


Jabir ibn ‘Atik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “There are seven martyrs besides one who is killed in the way of Allah: the victim of plague is a martyr, the one who drowns is a martyr, the one who dies of chest pain is a martyr, the one who dies of stomach infection is a martyr, the one who burns to death is a martyr, the one who is crushed under something is a martyr, and the pregnant woman who dies giving labor is a martyr.”

Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 3111

So correlation between this hadith and Chapter 108 verse 2 is that, a muslim who lives in a land where disease breaks out prays to God for mercy, relief and to subdue the plague. But if he dies in the process, his death is sacrifice which makes him a martyr. Do you understand now?. So the ayah in itself is clear but it is also subjective to different interpretations. So coronavirus is present tense and it will eventually go away by Allah's permission but the meaning of the ayah itself, which is "pray and sacrifice" will continue to have functional role to play in the lives of muslims. Therefore, Quran is plain and clear and explains all things contrary to what you opined. This is why three(3) interpretations i gave you earlier are within the explanation of Quran.

Now back to the hadith, what did you learn about the hadith that is talking about plague?. It teaches us that when coronavirus breaks out, all nigerian politicians should have stayed in their respective countries in western world and deal with the pandemic. But they foolishly imported the disease to Nigeria which was the reason borders were left open. And now many more people have been infected due to their greed.

I hope you learned one or two things?.

Empiree:
Too late for this, bro. Nothing wrong with islam and nothing will ever touch it. Yes, there were some historic muslim leaders or people who might have done questionable things but all that had nothing to do with islam. Quran is here to stay. Stop wasting your time. By the way, CP is not enough for you anymore?. This is probably 3rd time I am watching this white dude. Bro, pick up Quran and digest it. Quran is medicine. Quran is healing for the disease in your heart.

I am using the opportunity to reply to this and your other post simultaneously. It is unfortunate that you retorted to "sequence of Quran" after you realized you can not find relevant argument to support your position. You said if Quran claims to be clear why is there a need to have 3 interpretations for a verse if indeed Quran has explained all

I hope you learned one or two things?.

Empiree, I have learnt something, and it is that you have seen that you cannot answer my questions and have cleverly turned to another subject. Another thing I learnt is that whereas when we started you wanted us to stick to the Koran, now that it suits you it is ok to bring up the hadith. How clever of you.

I have also learnt that CP is still giving you headache. Interesting! I know that it's because no Moslem has been able to prove him wrong about Islam.

In my reference to the sequence of the Koran I still tied it to the chapters and verses in question. So, you're wrong to think it is out of place. I did not veer off to other issues like you did. We can take those up in some other conversation. Stick to the issue and don't muddle things up. Don't confuse readers of these our conversations.

You wrote:

Having multiple interpretations of a verse ............ gives possible meanings of the ayah relating to certain event or incident.

If all I get in the portion on the angel's or angels ' or 'Our spirit's' visitation to Mary (which you've still not been able to explain) are "POSSIBLE MEANINGS" it means then that there is NO EXACT MEANING.

'A' can choose to run with one meaning while 'B' can decide to go with another completely different one. And you're telling us that the Koran was meant to be clear? How does that make sense to you? It is the Koran that makes the claim to be a clear book.

This is AN EVENT. If how it happened is subject to different narrations then it must be that the Koran wants you to turn your brains upside-down.

If man writes "COVID-19 started in China", can anyone now tell us that the meaning can be many? This is about where an event took place. If the meaning will change where or what took place would that not be regarded as a falsehood?

First, we don't know if it was an angel or a number of angels. Secondly, we don't know if it was not angels but 'Our spirit'. Thirdly, we don't know the identity of this 'Our spirit'. If all these are not confusion then tell us how you reconcile them.

You have chosen to blind your eyes to the glaring mistakes in your book. As a result you feel that you must come up with whatever reasons you can, however illogical they are. You have not told us how the Koran is plain and clear in the matter before us. That, Empiree, is what is unfortunate.

Wetin concern us with islam inside Jesus saves again? You have a whole section to yourself on the forum na. Why not respect yourselves.