geosegun:


I likened their (davidnazee, greyboy, and samuk) case to those of people asking for their rights by taken your own rights away from you. They don't want to be checked, even when they are clearly wrong and they knew it. I just chose to ignore them. We never hated anyone, I've got Benin/edos, as friends, neighbours even channel partners in business. So I don't know what their issues are, regarding historical facts about Benin Kingship and civilization, if not inferiority complex?

Yoruba (Ife) named their city Ibinu now (Benin) - Facts; Yoruba (Ife) gave Benin her Obaship -Fact, Yoruba assisted Benin greatly with civilization and hence her booming economy (Beads and Artistic/Bronze Engraving) - Fact!!! If they don't like it, is not our business, they can go ask their ancestors why?

Sorry they can't change history and destiny. You should know they are naturally stubborn; That's why they lost woefully to the British during the punitive expedition in 1898 and their legacies destroyed shamelessly. We (Yoruba Ife) warned them via our (Knowledge of the Oracle -Ifa) but they never listened. Look at the relics of a once great Kingdom, an offshoot of Yoruba Ife. They almost destroyed some of our ancestors legacies due to their stubbornness, so I am not surprise if their descendants is showing that stubborn attributes as we are witnessing here on NL in recent times. Its in their DNA, Lol!

Prove that there was a benin - ife connection all you are saying is not based on research but on false oral account...


You guys no the politics behind the myth but you guys keep the info to yourselves and use it against us....
The yorubas keep saying our obas cooked the info of ekaladeran in the 30s, we binis didnt really know what they meant
And one of your brothers was trying to tell it but you guys again silenced him

But you know what, we ain't buying that myth anymore, after my research am going to write an article addressing this myth
And i will publish it, so our new generation wont suffer arguing on cook up myth anymore that energy will be used to research were we originates from

And that is a goal

gregyboy:


Prove that there was a benin - ife connection all you are saying is not based on research but on false oral account...


You guys no the politics behind the myth but you guys keep the info to yourselves and use it against us....
The yorubas keep saying our obas cooked the info of ekaladeran in the 30s, we binis didnt really know what they meant
And one of your brothers was trying to tell it but you guys again silenced him

But you know what, we ain't buying that myth anymore, after my research am going to write an article addressing this myth
And i will publish it, so our new generation wont suffer arguing on cook up myth anymore that energy will be used to research were we originates from

And that is a goal

Sane readers who have integrity, please see attachments below for a historical reference to the c.1480 Portuguese account of the suzerainty of the Ooni of Ife over Benin kingdom:

Thanks gregyboy for helping me to make the truths I've been repeating (with evidence) become a popular internet search result which (as you also have once testified) is becoming accessible to a wide vareity of readers all over the world. 

I am grateful.

Cheers! 

TAO11:


(1) Tell me the etymology of "Oba" as meaning "King" in Edo language!

(2) Also tell me the broken down meaning of "Orunmila" in Edo language!

(3) Quote from your "Cambridge" and reference in full.

Hahaha

I KNOW HE IS LYING. I HOPE HE CANT SEE THIS

Oba in Benin means something that shines or illuminates, like the shining star or sun.

Omo no ba ne Edo literally means.

The child that shines for Edo or the star/sun that shines for Edo.

That's why the Edo people refers to the Oba of Benin as God's representative on earth, a living god.

Oba in Benin language is not king, he is more than a king.

Kings in Edo language are called Ogie.

The Oba is the king of Kings.

Oba also means red.

The Yorubas recently begin to adopt Oba for their kings thinking it originally meant king.

The Oba of Benin has now been reduced to the status of a king within the Nigeria context, it wasn't always so.

The Benin people still sees the Oba of Benin as a living god.

There was a time, a commoner was forbidden to address the Oba directly, it was done through Palace chiefs.

In the past, Eleko or oba of Lagos, Olu of Warri, Enogie of Uromi and the hundreds of mushroom
Obas in Yoruba land, etc were all kings, but not in the same category as the Oba of Benin, that's why Benin coined the title to separate the Oba of Benin (a living god) from all these other kings.

This was the reason you didn't have another king dear called himself an Oba in the old Benin kingdom, maybe until recently.

The Yoruba think they originate it because they have made it popular recently.

The title of Oba has been in used for almost a thousand years in Benin, first recorded by the Portuguese in late 1400s.

Until recently Yorubas had Ooni, Alaafin, Ewi, Awujale, Osemawe, oluwo and hundreds more titles but not oba.

The Yorubas started attaching Oba to the titles of their kings after the fall of Benin empire.

The word Oba is indigenous to Benin.

You ask the questions, we educate the audience.

TAO11:


(1) Tell me the etymology of "Oba" as meaning "King" in Edo language!

(2) Also tell me the broken down meaning of "Orunmila" in Edo language!

(3) Quote from your Cambridge and reference in full. ;

Hahaha

O ba ( shining)


The Portuguese have known the word oba for king in benin since 14c

We already know the fact that there was no benin - ife connection

Lemme lay my emphasis before you start telling myth

The eastern yorubas were influenced by edos, the western yorubas were influenced by oyo
This two part of yoruba came together to form a general language, the eastern part of the yorubas had brought the word oba to the western yorubas. Instead of serving as a title it became a general word for king.....

Abi you forget there was a mixture of language between the two yorubas


Or would we say because kwara bears the world emir then the world emir came from yorubas to the north

Ooh i see if the title emir is not worldly recognized as an islamist name you guys would have been debating the hausas for it too

TAO11:


Sane readers who have integrity, please see attachments below for a historical reference to the c.1480 Portuguese account of the suzerainty of the Ooni of Ife over Benin kingdom:

Thanks gregyboy for helping me to make the truths I've been repeating (with evidence) become a popular internet search result which (as you also have once testified) is becoming accessible to a wide vareity of readers all over the world. 

I am grateful.

Cheers! 

I told you to mention any of the scholar who adam knobler attested to agreed that ogane was ooni of ife and how did the scholar arrived at it... Instead you insulted me

You that believe that ogane is ooni how did you arrive at it


Block head.....

geosegun:



Yoruba (Ife) named their city Ibinu now (Benin) - Facts; Yoruba (Ife) gave Benin her Obaship -Fact,

Yoruba assisted Benin greatly with civilization and hence her booming economy (Beads and Artistic/Bronze Engraving) Fact!!!

This!! @ the bolded is yet another lie being peddled around by your folks. Bronze casting is indigenous to Edo people and not from Ife. The first person to make this assertion was Egharevba, reason why there is no such oral account of such knowledge transfer in Ife or Yoruba history before Egharevba. If there is then show us.

In fact, archeological investigation into Ife bronzes revealed that the art of bronze making began in the 11th or 12th century and by the 16th century the art had died. Untill today there is no culture of bronze casting in ife. Also, aside the style of bronze cast's in Ife being different from that of Benin, the purpose of most Ife bronze work are not known.

Yet in Benin where the art was said to be introduced to had already developed the art before the 11th century and is still very much alive till date.


The art of bronze casting in Benin did not start in the 14th century as being peddled around, but rather it is said to be as old as Benin. It was the guild for bronze casting that was created at this time by the then Oba to serve the purpose of documenting victories in wars, rituals and others.


The the daughters of the Ogisos were said to wear bronze Bangles, and this has been corroborated by the archeological work of Graham connah who discovered bronze Bangles which were made using the lost was technique that is also used in making Benin bronzes.

To all yoruba people there is no story for you all again as am concerned there was never ife benin

Before you argue benin and ife tell me the history of your clan

Tell me were the yoruba people originated from

gregyboy:



O ba ( shining)


The Portuguese have known the word oba for king in benin since 14c

We already know the fact that there was no benin - ife connection

Lemme lay my emphasis before you start telling myth

The eastern yorubas were influenced by edos, the western yorubas were influenced by oyo
This two part of yoruba came together to form a general language, the eastern part of the yorubas had brought the word oba to the western yorubas. Instead of serving as a title it became a general word for king.....

Abi you forget there was a mixture of language between the two yorubas


Or would we say because kwara bears the world emir then the world emir came from yorubas to the north

Ooh i see if the title emir is not worldly recognized as an islamist name you guys would have been debating the hausas for it too

samuk:


Oba in Benin means something that shines, like the shining star or sun.

Omo no ba ne Edo literally means.

The child that shines for Edo or the star/sun that shines for Edo.

That's why the Edo people refers to the Oba of Benin as God's representative on earth, a living god.

Oba in Benin language is not king, he is more than a king.

Kings in Edo language are called Ogie.

The Oba is the king of Kings.

Oba also means red.

The Yorubas recently begin to adopt Oba for their kings thinking it originally meant king.

The Oba of Benin has now been reduced to the status of a king within the Nigeria context, it wasn't always so.

The Benin people still sees the Oba of Benin as a living god.

There was a time, a commoner was forbidden to address the Oba directly, it was done through Palace chiefs.

In the past, Eleko or oba of Lagos, Olu of Warri, Enogie of Uromi etc were all kings, but not in the same category as the Oba of Benin, that's why Benin coined the title to separate the Oba of Benin (a living god) from all these other kings.

First of all, notice that I made three different requests in relation to three different lies from gregyboy.

However, I got replies for only one of these three requests --- a reply which itself turns out to be a glaring falsehood.

I therefore take it from these responses that the deafening silence of your replies in respect of the other two requests is a blatant indication of the falsehood of the two claims they relate to.

Moving on ...

On the question of the word "Oba" and its etymology, I won't blame you samuk so much for not knowing that I have debunked all these gymnastics before.

I blame gregyboy particularly for giving off the false impression that he hasn't been kept shut on this before.

Now to the crux:
If a word and its intended menaning belongs originally to a specific language, then its etymological derivation would obviously be found in that same language.

To analyse the word "Oba" for "King" from the Edo language, it is only normal and obvious to begin with root-word/s in the same language which sounds most close to the word "Oba".

And the closest "Oba-sounding" Edo root-word is the Edo root-word "Baa".

(1) "Baa" (or perhaps "Ba" ) in Edo language is a verb which means "Shine".

(2) A derived form from "Baa" is the Edo phrase "O - Baa" which means "it is Shining".

(3) Another derived form from "Baa" is the Edo noun "N'Oba" which means "that which Shines" (or arguably "one who Shines" ).

(4) Another derived form from "Baa" is the Edo noun "Noba" which means "Red".

What becomes very obvious from the foregoing four point are as follows:

(i) That there are some indigenous Edo words which are (at least) close in sound to the one-word "Oba" under consideration.

(ii) That the actual Edo root-word itself from which other similar forms are derived is the word "Baa" (or "Ba" ).

(iii) That the word "Oba" used as the equivalence of the word "King" is itself not derivable from the actual Edo root-word "Baa" (or "Ba" ).

(iv) Neither the Edo root-word "Baa", nor any of its three derived Edo forms have a meaning even remotely close to the essential meaning of the word "Oba" under consideration.


The word "Oba" under consideration in its essence connotes the following:

"King", "Ruler", "Monarch", "Presider", "Sovereign", "Potentate", "Emperor", or any other idea around these specifics.

Ironically, no such connotation (or anything close to it) is seen in the Edo root-word or in any of the Edo derivatives from it.

The word "Oba" is simply not found in the Edo lexicon. The closest Edo considerations are some words which appear and sound quite like "Oba", but whose meanings show them to be entirely different words far, far away from "Oba".

In the Yoruba language on the other hand, the closest Oba-sounding Yoruba root-word is "Ba", such as is seen in the Yoruba phrase: "... BA l'ori oun gbo-gbo".

(1) "Ba" in Yoruba language is a verb which means "Preside".

(2) The derived word from "Ba" is the Yoruba noun "Oba" which means "one who Presides".

What becomes very obvious from the foregoing, therefore, is that:

(i) There is an indigenous Yoruba root-word from which the noun "Oba" is directly derived without any buts or ifs.

(ii) The essential meaning of this derived Yoruba noun, "Oba" is precisely equivalent to the word "Ruler", etc., without any stretch whatsoever.

In sum, the etymology of the word "Oba" shows clearly that this word is not originally found in the Edo lexicon, while it also shows clearly that it is visibly original to the Yoruba lexicon.


Regarding the funny Benin supposed counter-arguments about royal titles such as: "Ooni", "Alaafin", "Olu", etc.

These are some of the most laughable Benin "counter-arguments" I often encounter. It is laughable because it begins and ends with ignorance.

It's as funny and ignorant as an "argument" to the effect that it is incorrect to address someone as "Woman" just because we know them as "Ijeoma". Isn't that the most laughable thing ever? Lol.


Well, to avoid not addressing this supposed counter-argument more directly, I would say the following:

While some of these terms represent "proper nouns" (i.e. distinctive titles such as: "Ooni", "Alaafin", "Olu", etc.); the other is a "common noun" (i.e. a generic title applicable to them all --- that is, "Oba" ).

"Oba" in the Yoruba language simply means "King", while the words "Ooni", Alaafin (i.e. "Olu-Afin" ), "Olu", etc. means "one who Owns", "Sovereign of the Palace", and "Sovereign", respectively.

D. M. Bondanrenko sums up this genereic and specifc distinction beautifuly in the first few lines of this page. See below:

Reference:
Dmitri M. Bondarenko, "Advent of the Second (Oba) Dynasty: Another Assessment of a Benin History Key Point", History in Africa, Vol. 30, Cambridge University Press, (2003), p.71.

gregyboy:


[s]]I told you to mention any of the scholar who adam knobler attested to agreed that ogane was ooni of ife and how did the scholar arrived at it... Instead you insulted me

You that believe that ogane is ooni how did you arrive at it


Block head.....[/s]

Ryder(1969).

TAO11:




First of all I noticed that I made 3 request in relation to 3 lies by gregyboy.

However, I got replies for for only 1 of the 3 requests --- a reply which itself turns out to be a glaringly falsehood.

I therefore take it from this response that the deafening silence of your replies in adressing the other two requests is a blatant indication of the falsehood of the two claims they relate to.

Moving on ...

On the question of "Oba" and its etymology, I won't blame you samuk so much for not knowing that I have debunked all these gymnastics before.

I blame gregyboy particularly for giving off the false impression that he hasn't been kept shut on this before.

Now to the crux. If a word and its intended menaning belongs originally to a specific language, its etymological derivation would be found in same language.

To investigate the word "Oba" for "King" from the Edo language, it is only normal and obvious to begin with root-word/s in same language which sound close.

And the closest "Oba-sounding" Edo root-word is "Baa".

(1) "Baa" (or arguably "Ba" ) which means "to Shine" in Edo language.

(2) A derived form from (1) is "O - Baa" which means "it is Shining" in Edo language.

(3) Another derived form from (1) is "N'Oba" which means "that which Shines" in Edo language.

(4) Another derived form from (1) is "Noba" which means "Red"

What becomes very obvious from the foregoing are as follows:

(i) That there are an indigenous Edo rwords which are close in sounds (at least) to the one-word "Oba" used as the equivalence of the word "King"

(ii) That the actual Edo root-word itself from which other similar forms are derived is "Baa" (or "Ba" ).

(iii) That the actual one-word "Oba" used today as the equivalence of the word "King" is itself not seen in any direct link [from (1) to (4)] to the actual Edo root-word "Baa" (or "Ba" ).

More than the fact that the word "Oba" does not have any direct link to the closest Edo root word of similar sound is the fact that the neither the root word "Baa" nor any of its derived forms has the essential meaning that the one-word "Oba" itself connotes in its essence.

The one-word "Oba" in its essence connotes the following words or phrase "King", "Ruler", one who Rules", "Sovereign" or any other idea around these specifics.

We see no such root connotation even in the derived nouns "Noba" --- "Red" or N'Oba --- "that which Shines" (or arguably "one who Shines" if extended to humans).

In sum, it becomes clear from the foregoing etymological inquiry that although a root word which sounds similar to the word "Oba" exists in the Edo language; their similarity ends in the sound. Their essential meanings are not similar let alone identical by any stretch of the imagination.


What about a similar etymological inquiry for "Oba" in the Yoruba language? Let's see.

The closest Oba-sounding Yoruba root word is "Ba"

(1) "Ba" which means "to Preside" in Yoruba language.

(2) The derived form from (1) is "Oba" which means "one who Presides" in Yoruba language --- No "but"s or "if"s.


What becomes very obvious from the foregoing, therefore, is that:

(i) That there is an indigenous Yoruba root-word from which the one-word "Oba" directly derives.

(i) And that this derived word "Oba" is not merely a noun, it also has the same precise essential connotation to the word "King".

In sum, the etymology of the one-word "Oba" for "King" is not found in the Edo language, but is found in the Yoruba language.

The logical explanation for its presence (i.e. the one-word "Oba" for "King") in the Edo language could only be due to cultural borrowings.

And the argument of what about words like "Ooni", "Alaafin", "Olu", etc. These are some of the funniest counter-arguments which emanates simoly from the ignorance of what's going on.

It's as funny as arguing that someone can't be called "Woman" because we know them as "Ijeoma". Lol.

One is only a "proper noun" which differs from one to the other, while the other is a "common noun" which applies to all of them with certain well-known features.

"Oba" in the Yoruba language simply means "King", while the words "Ooni", Alaafin (from: "Olu-Afin" ), "Olu", etc. mean "one who Owns", "Sovereign of the Palace", and "Sovereign", respectively.


D. M. Bondanrenko sums up this distinction beautifuly. See below:

I don't really see where we disagree on the issue or meaning of Oba.

Oba means much more than a king in Benin, I never told you it means a king.

It may mean king in Yoruba but until the 1900s there was no such king in Yoruba land that goes by the title Oba but Benin have been using it for almost 1000 years.

Was there such thing as a common Yoruba language 1000 years ago, no there wasn't.

So which dialects of the various Yoruba tribes did the word originates from.

Everyone who now called themselves Yoruba were previously of different tribes speaking different dialects.

Ekiti dialects can't be understood by Ijebu, same with various other Yoruba tribes before the Oyo dialect was standardised as the common Yoruba language for all.

Even at that, there are still various dialects being spoken by people of eastern Yoruba that Lagos Yoruba will not understand.

How can Benin that have been using the word/title for almost a thousand years be the one that copied it from Yoruba that started using it for their kings in less than 100 years ago.

If it means the one that presides on modern day Yoruba, then the Yorubas must have copied it from the Benin/Edo language which is much older than modern Yoruba.

samuk:


[s]I don't really see where we disagree on the issue or meaning of Oba.

Oba means much more than a king in Benin, I never told you it means a king.

It may mean king in Yoruba but until the 1900s there was no such king in Yoruba land that goes by the title Oba but Benin have been using it for almost 1000 years.

Was there such thing as a common Yoruba language 1000 years ago, no there wasn't.

So which dialects of the various Yoruba tribes did the word originates from.

Everyone who now called themselves Yoruba were previously of different tribes speaking different dialects.

Ekiti dialects can't be understood by Ijebu, same with various other Yoruba tribes before the Oyo dialect was standardised as the common Yoruba language for all.

Even at that there are still various dialects being spoken by people of eastern Yoruba that Lagos Yoruba will not understand[/s].

The essential connotation of the word "Oba" is "King", "Ruler", etc.

This essential connotation is what js missing in Your language.

Not only that, the one-word "Oba" itself is not found.

Those are the deep etymological problems Im drawing you to know. Learn to always read what you will be responding to.

And you raised an interesting question about which dialect of Yoruba does the word originate from.

Guess what! This etymology just exactly as I have explained it to you here is found in every single Yoruba dialect.

Go do your inquiry!

TAO11:


The essential connotation of the word "Oba" is "King", "Ruler", etc.

This essential connotation is what js missing in Your language.

Not only that, the one-word "Oba" itself is not found.

Those are the deep etymological problems Im drawing you to know. Learn to always read what you will be responding to.

I am showing you that this is a later interpretation of the word by modern Yoruba.

You have not told me which of the sub dialects of Yoruba that used the word Oba for their kings or rulers 1000 years ago the way Benin did.

If the Benin had borrowed it from a particularly Yoruba dialect 1000 years ago, that dialect would have been using it as title for their rulers or kings at that time.

The fact that there is no such subgroup of Yoruba that used that title 1000 years ago means Benin couldn't have borrowed it, instead, it's the Yoruba that only started using it recently that borrowed it from Benin.

Yoruba language as it is today is less than 200 years old.

Infact Yoruba rulers and kings didn't start using the word for their kings until the 1900s

samuk:


I don't really see where we disagree on the issue or meaning of Oba.

Oba means much more than a king in Benin, I never told you it means a king.

It may mean king in Yoruba but until the 1900s there was no such king in Yoruba land that goes by the title Oba but Benin have been using it for almost 1000 years.

Was there such thing as a common Yoruba language 1000 years ago, no there wasn't.

So which dialects of the various Yoruba tribes did the word originates from.

Everyone who now called themselves Yoruba were previously of different tribes speaking different dialects.

Ekiti dialects can't be understood by Ijebu, same with various other Yoruba tribes before the Oyo dialect was standardised as the common Yoruba language for all.

Even at that, there are still various dialects being spoken by people of eastern Yoruba that Lagos Yoruba will not understand.

How can Benin that have been using the word/title for almost a thousand years be the one that copied it from Yoruba that started using it for their kings in less than 100 years ago.

If it means the one that presides on modern day Yoruba, then the Yorubas must have copied it from the Benin/Edo language which is much older than modern Yoruba.

Moreover, I told you before that if you dont know anything. It's simple just shut up.

The problem I see here is that you've veen lied to so much. You've read too much of "edoworld", "edoblog," "edo-nation" websites.

If I ask you for evidence now to back up your lie that the Yorubas' use is less than 100 years ago. You will start scratching head.

I showed you hlw the etymology of "Oba" is found in Yoruba labguage but not found in Edo language.

Yet you're still here talking about 100 years. I'm beginning to think you have no clue what etymology means.

It means that even if the word with (obviously with its relevant meaning) is found in your language 2000 years ago, and its etymological derivation is absent as I have shown, then this is proof that it is what linguists call loanword.

And I have shown that its etymology is found --- in a simple, direct, no gymnastic manner --- in the Yoruba language. Proving it to be part and parcel of the lexicon. Thus your less than 100 years assumption (without any evidence as usual) dies a natural death.


To cap it up, the attachment is page from a book completed in the year 1897. Reverend S. Johnson The History of the Yoruba People

It contains an account on the Great Oyo Empire and shows how the people at some point during the reign of Aole (or Awole) stopped swearing in the name of the deities but now in the name in the name of the much feared king himself, saying:

"Ida Oba ni yio jemi:" --- meaning: "May the Kings sword destroy me".

These words were written down in this page as you see it below more than 100 years ago, thus destroying your less than 100 years imagination.

Let me guess your spinning of this less than 100 years bungle ...

But that's actually by the way, the etymological analysis says it all.

samuk:


I am showing you that this is a later interpretation of the word by modern Yoruba.

You have not told me which of the sub dialects of Yoruba that used the word Oba for their kings or rulers 1000 years ago the way Benin did.

Yoruba language as it is today is less than 200 years old.

Infact Yoruba rulers and kings didn't start using the word for their kings until the 1900s

Provide your evidence.

Anyways don't bother, your "less than 100 years ago" lie has already been busted in the attachment above.

Lol.

TerraCotta:


I am guessing you’re that former NL poster who had an intense interest in physics and Nigerian history? I remember reading some references you’d made then to mud-polishing which were new to me in traditional architecture, but in the years since, I’ve noticed several references to similar effects on house walls and this “glossy finish”. I’ll see if I can re-locate them because it’s such an interesting (perhaps now lost) reference to an impressive traditional design technique.

Hello TerraCotta! Long time no see. Yeah, that's me. I forgot the login details for my old account(s) since it's been years since I signed on and posted here, and I couldn't remember where I had those details saved, so I just made a new account. I would be interested in anything you have to share regarding references to the use of such polishing in traditional/ancient Nigerian architecture.

TAO11:


Moreover, I told you before that if you dont know anything. It's simple just shut up.

The problem I see here is that you've veen lied to so much. You've read too much of "edoworld", "edoblog," "edo-nation" websites.

If I ask you for evidence now to back up your lie that the Yorubas' use is less than 100 years ago. You will start scratching head.

I showed you hlw the etymology of "Oba" is found in Yoruba labguage but not found in Edo language.

Yet you're still here talking about 100 years. I'm beginning to think you have no clue what etymology means.

It means that even if the word with (obviously with its relevant meaning) is found in your language 2000 years ago, and its etymological derivation is absent as I have shown, then this is proof that it is what linguists call loanword.

And I have shown that its etymology is found --- in a simple, direct, no gymnastic manner --- in the Yoruba language. Proving it to be part and parcel of the lexicon. Thus your less than 100 years assumption (without any evidence as usual) dies a natural death.


To cap it up, the attachment is page from a book comleted in the year 1897.

It discusses the Great Oyo Empire and shows how the people at some point during the reign of Aole (or Awole) stopped swearing in the name of the deities but now in the name in the name of the much feared king himself, saying:

"Ida Oba ni yio jemi:" --- meaning: "May the Kings sword destroy me".

Thjs words were written down in thjs page as you see it below more than 100 years ago, thus destroying your less than 100 years imagination.

But that's actually by the way, the etymological analysis says it all.

We are now getting somewhere.

You said the Oyo dialet used to use the word Oba for their kings.

The only problem with this, if true is that Oyo is younger than Benin. So Oyo would have borrowed the word Oba from a much older Benin.

Can you provide evidence as to when Oyo stated using the word Oba to mean ruler or king because your article said it was a new form of oath swearing.

Your article also said this new oat swearing in the name of the Oba was during the decline of the Oyo kingdom.

I suggests to you that the much feared oba sword the Oyo sworn by was the sword of Oba of Benin otherwise why didn't they swear by the sword of their king Alaafin.

I hope our audiences are carefully following us on this.

samuk:


We are now getting somewhere.

You said the Oyo dialet used to use the word Oba for their kings.

The only problem with this, if true is that Oyo is younger than Benin. So Oyo would have borrowed the word Oba from a much older Benin.

Can you provide evidence as to when Oyo stated using the word Oba to mean ruler or king.

I suggests to you that the much feared oba sword the Oyo sworn by was the sword of Oba of Benin otherwise why didn't they swear by the sword of their king Alaafin.

All Yorubas is what I said, And I busted your lie of less than 100 years with one example of Yoruba --- Oyo.

So tell me another lie about how many years ago the Yorubas started using "Oba". Lol.

Why would Oyo borrow its own language from a a kingdom that speaks another indigenous language?? Lol.

You seem to be unwilling to face what has just hit you, which is that:

The etymological derivation of the word "Oba" for "King", "Ruler", etc. (and the one-word "Oba" itself) is not found in the Edo language; but found in the Yoruba language.

This is the issue right here, and its bold now, so I'm sure you can see it.

Do I have to explain the implication of this??

TAO11:


All Yorubas is what I said, And I busted your lie of less than 100 years with one example of Yoruba --- Oyo.

So tell me another lie about how many years ago the Yorubas started using "Oba". Lol.

Why would Oyo borrow its own language from a a kingdom that speaks another indigenous language?? Lol.

You seem to be unwilling to face what has just hit you, which is that:

The etymological derivation of the word "Oba" for "King", "Ruler", etc. (and the one-word "Oba" itself) is not found in the Edo language; but found in the Yoruba language.

This is the issue right here, and its bold now, so I'm sure you can see it.

Do I have to explain the implication of this??

Your etymological derivation is from your interpretation of what you thought the Benin word Oba meant.

I already told you the literal meaning of the word Oba in Benin.

You said all Yoruba used it without providing evidence.

The only evidence you produce was some kind of oat swearing in the name of the Oba that happened during the end of the Oyo kingdom not more than 300 years ago.

This is the earliest you can show the word Oba being used in Oyo dialect for oat swearing.

But it's a known fact that Benin have been using the word for almost 1000 years, almost 700 years before it appears in Oyo.

So the evidence before us shows that a younger Oyo must have borrowed it from a much older Benin.

samuk:


I don't really see where we disagree on the issue or meaning of Oba.

Oba means much more than a king in Benin, I never told you it means a king.

It may mean king in Yoruba but until the 1900s there was no such king in Yoruba land that goes by the title Oba but Benin have been using it for almost 1000 years.

Was there such thing as a common Yoruba language 1000 years ago, no there wasn't.

So which dialects of the various Yoruba tribes did the word originates from.

Everyone who now called themselves Yoruba were previously of different tribes speaking different dialects.

Ekiti dialects can't be understood by Ijebu, same with various other Yoruba tribes before the Oyo dialect was standardised as the common Yoruba language for all.

Even at that, there are still various dialects being spoken by people of eastern Yoruba that Lagos Yoruba will not understand.

How can Benin that have been using the word/title for almost a thousand years be the one that copied it from Yoruba that started using it for their kings in less than 100 years ago.

If it means the one that presides on modern day Yoruba, then the Yorubas must have copied it from the Benin/Edo language which is much older than modern Yoruba.

There is no documentation that they used the word oba as a collective noun before the advent of the white.......

Instead of them to shut up since they cant prove it, they still sticking thier mouth out in defense

If the benin-ife can be proven it truly existed then there will be a debate for the ownership of oba title

I cant imagine benin cutting off relationship agsinst ife people who happened to help them restore thier monarch


Samuk what do you think about the origin of the benin people

gregyboy:



There is no documentation that they used the word oba as a collective noun before the advent of the white.......

Instead of them to shut up since they cant prove it, they still sticking thier mouth out in defense

If the benin-ife can be proven it truly existed then there will be a debate for the ownership of oba title

I cant imagine benin cutting off relationship agsinst ife people who happened to help them restore thier monarch


Samuk what do you think about the origin of the benin people

I will like to explore and align myself with the suggestion by Ryder that most people that now occupied southern Nigeria would have once lived in the Niger Benue confluence, that is if they had not always been in their respective domains from the beginning of time.

TAO11:


Moreover, I told you before that if you dont know anything. It's simple just shut up.

The problem I see here is that you've veen lied to so much. You've read too much of "edoworld", "edoblog," "edo-nation" websites.

If I ask you for evidence now to back up your lie that the Yorubas' use is less than 100 years ago. You will start scratching head.

I showed you hlw the etymology of "Oba" is found in Yoruba labguage but not found in Edo language.

Yet you're still here talking about 100 years. I'm beginning to think you have no clue what etymology means.

It means that even if the word with (obviously with its relevant meaning) is found in your language 2000 years ago, and its etymological derivation is absent as I have shown, then this is proof that it is what linguists call loanword.

And I have shown that its etymology is found --- in a simple, direct, no gymnastic manner --- in the Yoruba language. Proving it to be part and parcel of the lexicon. Thus your less than 100 years assumption (without any evidence as usual) dies a natural death.


To cap it up, the attachment is page from a book completed in the year 1897. Reverend S. Johnson The History of the Yoruba People

It contains an account on the Great Oyo Empire and shows how the people at some point during the reign of Aole (or Awole) stopped swearing in the name of the deities but now in the name in the name of the much feared king himself, saying:

"Ida Oba ni yio jemi:" --- meaning: "May the Kings sword destroy me".

These words were written down in this page as you see it below more than 100 years ago, thus destroying your less than 100 years imagination.

Let me guess your spinning of this less than 100 years bungle ...

But that's actually by the way, the etymological analysis says it all.

Post the link of the book


Lets examine the date date

Are you saying benins borrowed from oyo or from the imaginary ife

You and your colleagues always say yoruba use to be spoken in the plalace untill recently

I just laff when i read all those nonsense claims filled with desperation

samuk:


Your etymological derivation is from your interpretation of what you thought the Benin word Oba meant.

I already told you the literal meaning of the word Oba in Benin.

You said all Yoruba used it without providing evidence.

The only evidence you produce was some kind of oat swearing in the name of the Oba that happened during the end of the Oyo kingdom not more than 300 years ago.

This is the earliest you can show the word Oba being used in Oyo dialect for oat swearing.

But it's a known fact that Benin have been using the word for almost 1000 years, almost 700 years before it appears in Oyo.

So the evidence before us shows that a younger Oyo must have borrowed it from a much older Benin.

It's not what I thought the word "Oba" meant in Edo language, it's about the fact that the word "Oba" does not exist at all in the Edo lexicon from an etymological analysis.

The closest sounding words are the ones I have brought up in the etymological analysis (which both you and gregyboy) have also brought up and agreed to their respective meanings.

Etymological analysis shows that those Edo words are a different words from the word "Oba" both in meaning and in strict pronunciation (or spelling).

Edos use the word "Oba" to be mean "King" such that when you say "Oba Gha to Kpe E" what you mean is "King Ghato kpe E" and not "Shine or Red Gha To Kpe E. Lol

The Edo root "Baa", and the Edo nouns Noba and N'Oba have absolutely nothing to do etymologically with "Oba". All the similarity between them and this begins and ends in the quite similar sounds.

Again, my reference to the use of the word "Oba" in an 1897 work was not to demonstrate anything, but to disgrace you for lying that the word "Oba" begins to be used by the Yorubas in the 1900s.

So, that's the beginning and end of the use of that reference. No where did I say that was the Yoruba's earliest use of the word. Stop committing strawman fallacy.

My actual argument is here:

The evidence that the word "Oba" (for "King" is an indigenous Yoruba word lies in the fact that its relevant etymology is found in the Yoruba lexicon.

In contrast, the evidence that the word "Oba" is alien to (but loaned into) the Edo lexicon lies in the absolute absense of same word (and its meaning) from the Edo lexicon.

Q. E. D.


And this exchange has continued up to this point for only one of only two possible reasons, namely:

(1) You have no clue what etymological analysis is and how it works.

(2) You're pretending to be clueless about it while you see the issue.

There is no 3rd alternative.

I understand how you feel about all these. It's quite difficult to let go of what you've been indoctrinated over a long period to beleive is fact, sometimes even in the face of blatant incontrovertible contrary evidence like the above.

samuk:


I will like to explore and align myself with the suggestion by Ryder that most people that now occupied southern Nigeria would have once lived in the Niger Benue confluence, that is if they had not always been in their respective domains from the beginning of time.

Yea, the benin obas used to own horses and dwarfs, were did the dwarfs go, did they get extinct or were they used for rituals....

The benue people local dish is pounded yam and thier soup

Horses are not found in rainforest regions so how did the oba ride in horses were did they get them from...

I think the Oghene is an igala man it took the effort of both the Portuguese and benin to defeat
Them

I believe benin is an offspring of igala people

Check this artwork

I belive this artwork relate to a northern person than igbo or yoruba

TAO11:


It's not what I thought the word "Oba" meant in Edo language, it's about the fact that the word "Oba" does not exist at all in the Edo lexicon from an etymological analysis.

The closest sounding words are the ones I have brought up in the etymological analysis (which both you and gregyboy) have also brought up and agreed to their respective meanings.

Etymological analysis shows that those Edo words are a different words from the word "Oba" both in meaning and in strict pronunciation (or spelling).

Edos use the word "Oba" to be mean "King" such that when you say "Oba Gha to Kpe E" what you mean is "King Ghato kpe E" and not "Shine or Red Gha To Kpe E. Lol

The Edo root "Baa", and the Edo nouns Noba and N'Oba have absolutely nothing to do etymologically with "Oba". All the similarity between them and this begins and ends in the quite similar sounds.

Again, my reference to the use of the word "Oba" in an 1897 work was not to demonstrate anything, but to disgrace you for lying that the word "Oba" begins to be used by the Yorubas in the 1900s.

So, that's the beginning and end of the use of that reference. No where did I say that was the Yoruba's earliest use of the word. Stop committing strawman fallacy.

My actual argument is here:

The evidence that the word "Oba" (for "King" is an indigenous Yoruba word lies in the fact that its relevant etymology is found in the Yoruba lexicon.

In contrast, the evidence that the word "Oba" is alien to (but loaned into) the Edo lexicon lies in the absolute absense of same word (and its meaning) from the Edo lexicon.

Q. E. D.


And this exchange has continued up to this point for only one of only two possible reasons, namely:

(1) You have no clue what etymological analysis is and how it works.

(2) You're pretending to be clueless about it while you see the issue.

There is no 3rd alternative.

I understand how you feel about all these. It's quite difficult to let go of what you've been indoctrinated over a long period to beleive is fact sometimes even in the face of incontrovertible contrary evidence.

Still not convinced

We edos introduced to the yorubas through the conquest of the eastern yorubas

Lemme ask? what did the benins introduce to the yorubas, lets not say conquest before you deviate my attention, lets say through interaction between both party

Am still waiting for the link

gregyboy:


[s]Post the link of the book

Lets examine the date date

Are you saying benins borrowed from oyo or from the imaginary ife

You and your colleagues always say yoruba use to be spoken in the plalace untill recently

I just laff when i read all those nonsense claims filled with desperation[/s]

I like the fact that you got curious.

In other words, you are gradually realizing how all those "edoworld", "edo-nation" websites have actually being making you feast hopelessly on a heap of dog sh!t for a long time.

Anyway, there is something called "Google". Type therein the question below:
"In what year was Samuel Johnson's 'The History of The Yorubas' Completed"??

After getting the year, then your next task will now be to type in some sentences from the page I attached into google and notice from what book did the result from Google come?

This is the easiest way to go about it. You can do this by yourself. Don't make me think you can't! Don't make me thing you agree that I'm smarter than you!

Or are you just saving face?? ?? ??

gregyboy:

[s]Still not convinced

We edos introduced to the yorubas through the conquest of the eastern yorubas

Lemme ask? what did the benins introduce to the yorubas, lets not say conquest before you deviate my attention, lets say through interaction between both party

Am still waiting for the link[/s]

I am actually out to convince sane people and make this truth popular on the internet.

What have you been thinking?

And regarding your question of what the Binis "introduced to" some Yorubas (not to the Yorubas):

First, I will modify your use of the phrase "introduced to" and modify it what some Yorubas "borrow from" --- this is the more academic term than the former you've used which has specific connotations for which there is very weak or no evidence at all.

To answer this question, I will quote directly from Professor S. Adebanji Akintoye's "A History of the Yoruba People" where he writes:

"The Owo, Akoko, and most Ekiti kingdoms borrowed liberally from this Edo tradition [the tradition of adorning the king with super-abundance of beads], as well as from Benin royal festivals, chieftaincy titles, styles of palace buildings. For much of their history after the rise of the Benin kingdom, in fact, the Owo, Akoko and southern Ekiti peoples of this area looked as much east-wards towards Benin as they did westwards towards the main centers of Yoruba civilization." p.212.

I know you must be very happy now!

TAO11:
Interestingly, why I wanted to read it myself is that I have read a number of scholarly reference to it which shows that he himself drifted away in 1969 from his 1965 suggestion about the Ogane.

The historian Elizabeth Isichei is one scholar that did suggest (in A history of Nigeria), when discussing the Beni Nupe confederacy, that Ryder drifted away from his 1965 suggestion in his 1969 book:

"If there was a real dynastic link with Nupe this seems doubtful. It seems more probable that statements about a common heritage rest on the accidental verbal similarity between Benin and Beni. It is noteworthy that Ryder, who questioned the Ife connection and argued the case for linkages with a northern kingdom, abandoned the line of argument in his later book, Benin and the Europeans" - Elizabeth Isichei, A history of Nigeria, Volume 2, p. 137

However after re-reading his 1969 book I found that he does not actually do so at all. On page 7 of the 1969 book, Ryder cites his 1965 article, where his position was that the reference to east should perhaps be interpreted as the correct, and literal direction (although allowing for other possibilities about its meaning) that the Benin informants intended to indicate to the Portuguese about where the "Oghene" lived, (Oghene is a word meaning "great lord" in Edo (Bini), but which is used to refer to God in some other Edoid languages in modern times; of course God in Edo (Bini) is Osa, Osanobua, Osanobua Noghodua (God almighty), etc.) without changing his position.

In his 1969 book when discussing the origins of the dynasty of the Obas of Benin, Ryder cites his 1965 article on p. 7 and he does not indicate that his position had changed:

"1. cf. A.F.C. Ryder, 'A reconsideration of the Ife-Benin relationship'. Journal of African History, vol. VI, i (1965). This article examines the evidence for and against the tradition which identifies the Oghene with the Yoruba Oni of Ife, and suggests that many conflicts could be resolved by ascribing a more northerly origin to the dynasty. It is further argued that the origin of the name Benin might be sought in this direction."

I believe Isichei simply misread or did not accurately recall what Ryder's position was in his 1969 book. John Thornton's 1988 article about the Ife-Benin issue, where he cites Ryder's work repeatedly, does not make any note of Ryder changing his position at any point. I think Isichei was simply mistaken about this point.

I found out later on that the idea that the "Oghene" was indeed literally to the east of Benin, as stated twice in two different primary sources - first by Duarte Pacheco Pereira (in Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis) and later by João de Barros (in Décadas da Ásia, First Decade, Book III), was not exclusive to Ryder or Thornton. Decades before either Ryder or Thornton put forward their theories, Charles K. Meek had suggested (in his 1931 book A Sudanese Kingdom: An Ethnographical Study of the Jukun-speaking Peoples of Nigeria) that the "Ogane"/"Hooguanee" mentioned by Pereira and then by de Barros was possibly the ruler of the ancient Kwararafa state, based on the fact that the distance given in the original account (two hundred and fifty leagues east of Benin in de Barros' account) and the direction (east) line up with the location of the ancient Kwararafa state relative to Benin.

Of further interest is that the ancient Kwararafa state was a brass/bronze casting center (exquisite ancient brass or bronze artifacts have been found from there, Leo Frobenius's assistant made some drawings of some of these during one of Frobenius's expeditions to Nigeria in the early 20th century). The Kwararafa "empire" or "confederacy" was supposedly also ruled by a divine "priest king" in the past, according to what both P.A. Talbot and Meek found during their research in the early 20th century, and it had numerous surrounding groups under its authority or influence. Of course there is also supposed to be some sort of significant historical connection between Kwararafa and Igala, or at least Jukun and Igala, according to the thinking of most researchers on precolonial Nigerian history. Also, in his 1965 article, on p. 35, Ryder also proposes a possible Kwararafa connection to Benin as Meek did decades earlier.

Meek also made one surprising comment in his book on the Jukun. He mentions (on p. 50) a certain name and states that "among the Jukun at the present time it is the title of the official who supervises the burial rites of the kings of Wukari". What was surprising - or rather, peculiar - to me is that Meek claims that that name was also found at Benin. I would include the full quote but I do not have the book on me right now.

An interesting article along this line of thought, with regard to the ancient Kwararafa state, before its defeat and destruction by the Bornu empire, is R. Gray - "Christian Traces and a Franciscan Mission in the Central Sudan, 1700–1711" Journal of African History 7 (1967): 383-393. That article might be relevant, if some of the details stated there about crosses are more than just coincidental.

Edit: Upon re-reading Ryder's 1965 article I made a correction above to my original post about his stance on the direction indicated in the sources.

TAO11:


I am actually out to convince sane people and make this truth popular on the internet.

What have you been thinking?

And regarding your question of what the Binis "introduced to" some Yorubas (not to the Yorubas):

First, I will modify your use of the phrase "introduced to" and modify it what some Yorubas "borrow from" --- this is the more academic term than the former you've used which has specific connotations for which there is very weak or no evidence at all.

To answer this question, I will quote directly from Professor S. Adebanji Akintoye's "A History of the Yoruba People" where he writes:

"The Owo, Akoko, and most Ekiti kingdoms borrowed liberally from this Edo tradition [tradition of adorning the king with super-abundance of beads], as well as from Benin royal festivals, chieftaincy titles, styles of palace buildings. For much of their history after the rise of the Benin kingdom, in fact, the Owo, Akoko and southern Ekiti peoples of this area looked as much east-wards towards Benin as they did westwards towards the main centers of Yoruba civilization." p.212.

I know you must be very happy now!

Lol,

How did the oba word get into benin lexicon because benin conquest started during ewuares reign as far back 15c

And benin on the other hand had already started using the word oba

Dont tell the bullshit of ife, please don't

TAO11:


It's not what I thought the word "Oba" meant in Edo language, it's about the fact that the word "Oba" does not exist at all in the Edo lexicon from an etymological analysis.

The closest sounding words are the ones I have brought up in the etymological analysis (which both you and gregyboy) have also brought up and agreed to their respective meanings.

Etymological analysis shows that those Edo words are a different words from the word "Oba" both in meaning and in strict pronunciation (or spelling).

Edos use the word "Oba" to be mean "King" such that when you say "Oba Gha to Kpe E" what you mean is "King Ghato kpe E" and not "Shine or Red Gha To Kpe E. Lol

The Edo root "Baa", and the Edo nouns Noba and N'Oba have absolutely nothing to do etymologically with "Oba". All the similarity between them and this begins and ends in the quite similar sounds.

Again, my reference to the use of the word "Oba" in an 1897 work was not to demonstrate anything, but to disgrace you for lying that the word "Oba" begins to be used by the Yorubas in the 1900s.

So, that's the beginning and end of the use of that reference. No where did I say that was the Yoruba's earliest use of the word. Stop committing strawman fallacy.

My actual argument is here:

The evidence that the word "Oba" (for "King" is an indigenous Yoruba word lies in the fact that its relevant etymology is found in the Yoruba lexicon.

In contrast, the evidence that the word "Oba" is alien to (but loaned into) the Edo lexicon lies in the absolute absense of same word (and its meaning) from the Edo lexicon.

Q. E. D.


And this exchange has continued up to this point for only one of only two possible reasons, namely:

(1) You have no clue what etymological analysis is and how it works.

(2) You're pretending to be clueless about it while you see the issue.

There is no 3rd alternative.

I understand how you feel about all these. It's quite difficult to let go of what you've been indoctrinated over a long period to beleive is fact sometimes even in the face of incontrovertible contrary evidence.

Don't even pretend to understand Edo language more than the native speakers.

Oba means it's red or it's shining.
Noba means the one that is shining.

Edo language is more complex than you think.

There in no such word as baa. That sounds like sheep's language to me.

You can't just say baa on it's own, it will have no meaning and it will make no sense.

The correct word is Oba. When you say Noba, you are referring to something or someone that is red or shining or luminous.

The word Oba is deeply rooted in Edo language.

I told you it was coined to distinguished the king of kings from a mere king.

But the Yorubas later adopted it and thought it meant the one that rules or a king.

In it's reference to the Oba of Benin, it means the one or star/sun that shines to light the path/direction for Edo.

Hbrid99:


This!! @ the bolded is yet another lie being peddled around by your folks. Bronze casting is indigenous to Edo people and not from Ife. The first person to make this assertion was Egharevba, reason why there is no such oral account of such knowledge transfer in Ife or Yoruba history before Egharevba. If there is then show us.

In fact, archeological investigation into Ife bronzes revealed that the art of bronze making began in the 11th or 12th century and by the 16th century the art had died. Untill today there is no culture of bronze casting in ife. Also, aside the style of bronze cast's in Ife being different from that of Benin, the purpose of most Ife bronze work are not known.

Yet in Benin where the art was said to be introduced to had already developed the art before the 11th century and is still very much alive till date.


The art of bronze casting in Benin did not start in the 14th century as being peddled around, but rather it is said to be as old as Benin. It was the guild for bronze casting that was created at this time by the then Oba to serve the purpose of documenting victories in wars, rituals and others.


The the daughters of the Ogisos were said to wear bronze Bangles, and this has been corroborated by the archeological work of Graham connah who discovered bronze Bangles which were made using the lost was technique that is also used in making Benin bronzes.

I am not sure it's correct to say that Egharevba of the 1930s was the originator of the account.

The account is a well known Benin traditional account.

In fact, the Binis insisted to the Europeans that their own tradition told them that bronze casting was introduced to Benin from Ife.

Check out tthe Art History documentary below from time-stamp 48:21 -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQY_Jd--pwI

Moreover, if you're very familiar with Benin, inquire from Chief Ine's place about "Igueghae".

Lastly, the account that the daughters of certain Ogiso wore bronze bangles may not necessarily mean that it wasn't imported at the time.

gregyboy:



Lol,

How did the oba word get into benin lexicon because benin conquest started during ewuares reign as far back 15c

And benin on the other hand had already started using the word oba

Dont tell the bullshit of ife, please don't

You're asking about when Benin stopped using Ogiso??

Is that what you're asking??

samuk:


Don't even pretend to understand Edo language more than the native speakers.

Oba means it's red or it's shining.
Noba means the one that is shining.

Edo language is more complex than you think.

There in no such word as baa. That sounds like sheep's language to me.

You can't just say baa on it's own, it will have no meaning and it will make no sense.

The correct word is Oba. When you say Noba, you are referring to something or someone that is red or shining or luminous.

The word Oba is deeply rooted in Edo language.

I told you it was coined to distinguished the king of kings from a mere king.

But the Yorubas later adopted it and thought it meant the one that rules or a king.

In it's reference to the Oba of Benin, it means the one or star/sun that shines to light the path/direction for Edo.

"N'Oba" ("that or one which shines" ) is an Edo word deriving from the root "Baa".

"Noba" ("Red" ) is an Edo word also deriving from the root "Baa".

For "Oba", not only is the expected essential meaning (i.e. "King", etc.) completely missing, the word itself is not found in the Edo lexicon as I have shown.

This is the problem, you haven't seen or are pretending not to see.