TerraCotta, I've included what I attempted to post here earlier as attachments.

ghostwon:

Shut your mouth, idiot.
You know you are a bastard and a fool pretending to be intelligent.
There was no Oduduwa, but that doesn't warrant all the insults you are levelling against our emperor and all the attacks you are levelling against the Edo.
Basically you are a fool and the earlier you shut your mouth, the better. For years you claim one thing, then suddenly a shitty article is written then you change your speech entirely ! Like a controlled robot. I have always said oduduwa is a fairytale with proof, but since I am not an article you never listened. I produced several documents showing the extent of Benin empire, but since I am not an article you wouldn't listen. One day you might want to reveal your true identity, because your level of stupidity looks imaginary. Bigger traitor than you, I have never seen. It seems you only live to troll while claiming different identities.

You see a fool,
i have read so many articles and if it doesnt add up i disgard it, i don base my judgment on tribalism or Racial bigotries
You and your fellow cohort had once called me a white south african because i created a thread aginst the identity of african food crops

Again

Oba will be given respect that he deserves from me, if he deserves non i give him non, regardless of all this he is still my oba but i wont put him first before truth.....

In life the people who says the truth are always regarded as the villains
Am always at the fore front on this forum fighting for the benins and this runawy boy
open is mouth to call me a traitor because am standing against what he believes

Untill you can prove to me benin extended to ghana or togo through conquest or migration then you havnt said nothing

I believe yorubas had migrated over those areas through slave raid and the yoruba civil war

ghostwon:
The thing is Benin has a real history while the Yoruba don't.
The Yoruba compensate their lack of history by peddling myths all the time and claiming Benin for authenticity.
The weird thing is that the Edo, instead of relying on their history and logics, you join the history-less Yoruba into fairytale discussion ! While you don't need to be discussing fairytale, you actually have a real history ! Don't bring yourself down to their level.
And sorry to say this but you guys need to rethink your knowledge acquisition process. Many times you very easily fall into the traps of the yar.iba and basically take some of their unsubstantiated claims as true. Intelligence, logics are needed. Blind and stupid talk is the tool of the yar.iba, not the Edo. We have actual history, consult it ! Use your brains.

Bruv, I get your gist, but you most also accomodate the fact that even some Benin people may not have read as widely as others due to the fact that history is not currently being taught in our educational institutions.

Few Benin are very well acquainted with the history of Benin and the majority may find it difficult to be able to put things in their proper historical perspectives.

I doubt if anyone can really claim to be an encyclopedia of the documented history of Benin spanning almost 600 years.

There are various aspects that different people will be acquainted with while there are probably still documents from various centuries that still haven't been examined or not in public domain.

Threads such as this, albeit being stated with the so purpose of Benin bashing has actually became a vehicle to showcase little known aspects of Benin history with majority of the silent readers getting educated.

Whilst some people may be put off by the general attitudes of some of the debaters, every now and then, they intervene with superior documented evidences to prevent the debate from derailing completely and help put some of the arguments in their true historcal contexts, thereby exposing those with malicious intent.

Simply writing off the Yorubas as having nothing credible to say without advancing superior evidence could be counter productive and it becomes who's shut is the loudest and the Yorubas may be saying nonsense but they have a collective voices that are very loud.

So, interventions in threads like this from those with superior knowledge and evidence of the topic being discussed are very welcome, it enhances the knowledge of all, both active participants and silent readers.

There is a large Yoruba community, from Nigeria, living in Ghana. They trace their existence in Ghana to more than 100 years, when they first arrived in Ghana. These are Nigerians, not Ghanaians. These were the ones the Ooni may have given titles to.

AreaFada2:

I made a simple submission. That we should let people define themselves.

I read a few first lines and I did not watch the video clip. I heard Ooni visited Ghana and gave some titles at one time? Is that the video clip? Is that true? I am way to busy to follow every thing everyone comes up with. 9 years of doing so is a long time.

But let people define themselves. That was my message to Meles.

SilverSniper4:
TerraCotta, I've included what I attempted to post here earlier as attachments.

If I understood the article correctly, the Ogane (Oghene) Benin told the Portuguese about around 1480 is not even situation in modern day Nigeria.

And according to the Portuguese, the journey from Benin to this place was about 20 moons which roughly translates to 20 months or 1 year and 8 months.

This can only point to the reach of Benin in ancient times.

These sort of evidences completely rubbishes the notion that the Ogane Benin spoke about in 1480 was Ife.

Firstly, the Ogane Benin told Portuguese was said to be east/north of Benin and Ife is not.

Secondly, the journey from Benin to Ife wouldn't have lasted 1 year and 8 months in ancient times.

How long did it take a guy who walked from Lagos to Abuja to celebrate Buhari's first term victory against Jonathan.

1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7

Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that [b]to the east of Beny at twenty moons' journey which according to their account, and the short journeys they make, would be about two hundred and fifty of our leauges there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Beny he was held in as great veneration as is the Supreme Pontif with us. In accordance with a very ancient custom, the king of Beny, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to him with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor he has succeeded to the kingdom of Beny, and to request confirmation. To signify his assent, the prince Ogané sends the king a staff and a headpiece of shining brass, fashioned like a Spanish helmet, in place of a crown and sceptre. He also sends a cross, likewise of brass, to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the Knights of the Order of Saint John. Without these emblems the people do not recognize him as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king. All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogané, he never sees the prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as though it were a sacred relic.[/b] As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey the ambassador receives a small cross, similar to that sent to the king, which is thrown round his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes, and privileged in his native country, as the Knights are with us.

samuk:


If I understood the article correctly, the Ogane Benin told the Portuguese about around 1480 is not even situation in modern Nigeria.

This can only point to the reach of Benin in ancient times.

Well no, that was not really what I meant to convey by citing that article. The "Ogane" ruler the Benin informants mentioned to the Portuguese most likely was situated in what is now Nigeria, or at least somewhere else in west Africa,. I am saying in that post that the view of historians (especially those who are specialists on medieval history) is that the "Organa" on 14th, 15th, and 16th century European maps is actually a reference to the North African city of Ouargla, in the Sahara desert, very far from Nigeria and nearer to the coasts of North Africa. In other words, the "Saracen" ruler designated "Rey de Organa" on the European maps is not a reference to the "Ogane/Hooguanee" ruler that the Benin informants later told the Portuguese about.

I was just noting that the evidence points to the "Ogane/Hooguanee/Oghene" ruler being someone else entirely different from the ruler described and depicted on the maps. Ouargla is a Berber or Arabic name, that was most likely corrupted into Organa on medieval European maps.

The Oghene/Ogane/Hooguanee ruler was most likely someone else. Those maps are not referring to him (Ogane) but instead referring to the North African city of Ouargla in the Sahara desert and its ruler. So they probably are not really that relevant to the discussion.

samuk:


Bruv, I get your gist, but you most also accomodate the fact that even some Benin people may not have read as widely as others due to the fact that history is not currently being taught in our educational institutions.

Few Benin are very well acquainted with the history of Benin and the majority may find it difficult to be able to put things in their proper historical perspectives.

I doubt if anyone can really claim to be an eencyclopedia of the documented history of Benin spanning almost 600 years.

There are various aspects that different people will be acquainted with while there are probably still documents from various centuries that still haven't been examined or not in public domain.

Threads such as this, albeit being stated with the so purpose of Benin bashing has actually became a vehicle to showcase little known aspects of Benin history with majority of the silent readers getting educated.

Whilst some people may be put off by the general attitudes of some of the debaters, every now and then, they intervene with superior documented evidences to prevent the debate from derailing completely and help put some of the arguments in their true historcal contexts, thereby exposing those with malicious intent.

Simply writing off the Yorubas as having nothing credible to say without advancing superior evidence could be counter productive and it becomes who's shut is the loudest and the Yorubas may be saying nonsense but they have a collective voices that are very loud.

So, interventions in threads like this from those with superior knowledge and evidence of the topic being discussed are very welcome, it enhances the knowledge of all, both active participants and silent readers.

The issue am having with ghostwon he speaks on myth with no evidence to back them off and he is a tribalistic, if you ask him of prove he will wisk off....
I begged him to tell me his opinion why he felt ekaladeran and ogene are myth instead he gave me insult, this was what TAO11 was always referring to when he lost an argument with me

I try to always keep the thread inline, even putting
Off an igbo guy trying to derail the thread

I just want this thread to be a pure rational thread were we put in knowledge into debate and see truth comes out from myth

Saying benin conquered or migrated to ghana and other African countries with no prove are mere claims and i wont buy into it, not from the yorubas or my tribe benin either our sense of judgment shouldn't be overwhelmed by tribal bigotries
I myself would be happy if i see proves to them if i feel satisify with the proves given i will argue for it

SilverSniper4:


Well no, that was not really what I meant to convey by citing that article. The "Ogane" ruler the Benin informants mentioned to the Portuguese most likely was situated in what is now Nigeria, or at least somewhere else in west Africa,. I am saying in that post that the view of historians (especially those who are specialists on medieval history) is that the "Organa" on 14th, 15th, and 16th century European maps is actually a reference to the North African city of Ouargla, in the Sahara desert, very far from Nigeria and nearer to the coasts of North Africa. In other words, the "Saracen" ruler designated "Rey de Organa" on the European maps is not a reference to the "Ogane/Hooguanee" ruler that the Benin informants later told the Portuguese about.

I was just noting that the evidence points to the "Ogane/Hooguanee/Oghene" ruler being someone else entirely different from the ruler described and depicted on the maps. Ouargla is a Berber or Arabic name, that was most likely corrupted into Organa on medieval European maps.

Oghene/Ogane/Hooguanee was most likely someone entirely different.

Yea, they had misplace the two different kingdom as one

What of the Arab account on yuffi most yorubas
Ascribe it to ife

nsiba:
.

Well spoken bro, but what is this Yoruba obsession with Benin?
Even the present Oba of Lagos knows very well Eko is Benin owned

X

MumuCountry:
There is a large Yoruba community, from Nigeria, living in Ghana. They trace their existence in Ghana to more than 100 years, when they first arrived in Ghana. These are Nigerians, not Ghanaians. These were the ones the Ooni may have given titles to.

Except that the migration in question here is not some modern-100years-ago migration.

Our occupation of those parts goes back to the ancient kingdom-founding-migration of the Ife princes.

Hear from the supreme King of the Ga people, the Ga Mantse himself in the attachment below:

SilverSniper4:


Well no, that was not really what I meant to convey by citing that article. The "Ogane" ruler the Benin informants mentioned to the Portuguese most likely was situated in what is now Nigeria, or at least somewhere else in west Africa,. I am saying in that post that the view of historians (especially those who are specialists on medieval history) is that the "Organa" on 14th, 15th, and 16th century European maps is actually a reference to the North African city of Ouargla, in the Sahara desert, very far from Nigeria and nearer to the coasts of North Africa. In other words, the "Saracen" ruler designated "Rey de Organa" on the European maps is not a reference to the "Ogane/Hooguanee" ruler that the Benin informants later told the Portuguese about.

I was just noting that the evidence points to the "Ogane/Hooguanee/Oghene" ruler being someone else entirely different from the ruler described and depicted on the maps. Ouargla is a Berber or Arabic name, that was most likely corrupted into Organa on medieval European maps.

The Oghene/Ogane/Hooguanee ruler was most likely someone else.

Thanks for the clarification, you probably missed the modified part of my earlier submission.

I am examining the actual report of the Portuguese which I reproduced.

It says that the location was east of Benin and a journey of 20 moons, 20 months or 1 year and 8 months.

My contention from all these evidences is that there is hardly a journey within Nigeria that will take 1 year and 8 months and certainly not from Benin to Ife.

No evidence of Ife producing bronze crosses as of 1480 has been produced.

Ife is not east of Benin.

With the aforementioned, it becomes very difficult to understand how anyone will reach the conclusion that the Ogane Benin spoke about in 1480 is Ife.

Hi davidnazee:

See attachments as promised. For some reasons, I couldn't type them in here without getting blocked.

Cheers!

gregyboy:



The issue am having with ghostwon he speaks on myth with no evidence to back them off and he is a tribalistic, if you ask him of prove he will wisk off....
I begged him to tell me his opinion why he felt ekaladeran and ogene are myth instead he gave me insult, this was what TAO11 was always referring to when he lost an argument with me

I try to always keep the thread inline, even putting
Off an igbo guy trying to derail the thread

I just want this thread to be a pure rational thread were we put in knowledge into debate and see truth comes out from myth

Saying benin conquered or migrated to ghana and other African countries with no prove are mere claims and i wont buy into it, not from the yorubas or my tribe benin either our sense of judgment shouldn't be overwhelmed by tribal bigotries
I myself would be happy if i see proves to them if i feel satisify with the proves given i will argue for it

Yea, i love what you are doing
You are bold and not trabalic someone

Even tho am yoruba and benin i will stand for the truth and not support mediocrity from anyone, but personally i love what you gregyboy is doing on this thread

We are learning from behind

samuk:


Thanks for the clarification, you probably missed the modified part of my earlier submission.

I am examining the actual report of the Portuguese which I reproduced.

It says that the location was east of Benin and a journey of 20 moons, 20 months or 1 year and 8 months.

My contention from all these evidences is that there is hardly a journey within Nigeria that will take 1 year and 8 months and certainly not from Benin to Ife.

No evidence of Ife producing bronze crosses as of 1480 has been produced.

Ife is not east of Benin.

With the aforementioned, it becomes very difficult to understand how anyone will reach the conclusion that the Ogane Benin spoke about in 1480 is Ife.

Yes, I understand your point, however it might be more important to focus on the 250 leagues part of the description. When traveling people have to make stops to rest, eat, etc. And in an era before the prevalence of easily usable roads (there were some roads - by which I don't mean modern roads of course - between towns and cities within kingdoms and there were roads between some kingdoms for trade of course, but probably not everywhere along a long journey would have had roads back then), and with no restaurants or convenience stores or hotels along the way, and with no specific requirement that the journey has to be done quickly (i.e. one is not necessarily in a rush to get there) a journey of several hundred miles could take a long time. I agree with your overall logic though, about the 20 months. Even taking into account the factors that I have listed, it does seem like it should not take 20 months to go from Benin City by foot to the very borders of Nigeria in any direction. But we can't know exactly at what pace people liked to travel back then.

250 leagues could be about 700 to 900 standard English miles depending on the standard used for "league", and that might still be within the borders of Nigeria if one takes Benin City as the starting point. The "Portuguese maritime league" unit of measurement was about 3.2 nautical miles, which is about 3.68 standard English miles.

Multiplying 250 by 3.68 gives 920 miles. But "920 miles" is probably not going to be exactly what was meant. It could be a bit less, and of course the standard for "league" might not have been strictly adhered to back then (although on the other hand the Portuguese explorers, being experienced sailors would most likely have used standard and well established measurements for distance). From Benin City to Maiduguri is about 820 miles, so it is conceivable to still end up within the borders of modern day Nigeria or just at the borders, if one travels "about 250 leagues" from Benin City, if "250 leagues" is not taken as literally meaning exactly 250 leagues.

samuk:


If I understood the article correctly, the Ogane (Oghene) Benin told the Portuguese about around 1480 is not even situation in modern day Nigeria.

And according to the Portuguese, the journey from Benin to this place was about 20 moons which roughly translates to 20 months or 1 year and 8 months.

This can only point to the reach of Benin in ancient times.

These sort of evidences completely rubbishes the notion that the Ogane Benin spoke about in 1480 was Ife.

Firstly, the Ogane Benin told Portuguese was said to be east/north of Benin and Ife is not.

Secondly, the journey from Benin to Ife wouldn't have lasted 1 year and 8 months in ancient times.

How long did it take a guy who walked from Lagos to Abuja to celebrate Buhari's first term victory against Jonathan.

1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7

Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that [b]to the east of Beny at twenty moons' journey which according to their account, and the short journeys they make, would be about two hundred and fifty of our leauges there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Beny he was held in as great veneration as is the Supreme Pontif with us. In accordance with a very ancient custom, the king of Beny, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to him with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor he has succeeded to the kingdom of Beny, and to request confirmation. To signify his assent, the prince Ogané sends the king a staff and a headpiece of shining brass, fashioned like a Spanish helmet, in place of a crown and sceptre. He also sends a cross, likewise of brass, to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the Knights of the Order of Saint John. Without these emblems the people do not recognize him as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king. All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogané, he never sees the prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as though it were a sacred relic.[/b] As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey the ambassador receives a small cross, similar to that sent to the king, which is thrown round his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes, and privileged in his native country, as the Knights are with us.

This ogane story, have you seen any proof to back it ?
I mean, don't just take the existence and the claim "Benin spoke about oghene" as true without proof.
I have debunked this oghene story many times. If you show me the document which you are referring to I will hand you it's proper debunking.
Oghane or Orgvene is a mythical Kingdom. Associated with the quest of prester John, an other mythical figure. It is not a real place, and as you have rightly pointed out, the location attributed to it is not that if ife. But it still remains an imaginary place.

SilverSniper4:


Yes, I understand your point, however it might be more important to focus on the 250 leagues part of the description. When traveling people have to make stops to rest, eat, etc. And in an era before the prevalence of easily usable roads (there were some roads - by which I don't mean modern roads of course - between towns and cities within kingdoms and there were roads between some kingdoms for trade of course, but probably not everywhere along a long journey would have had roads back then), and with no restaurants or convenience stores or hotels along the way, and with no specific requirement that the journey has to be done quickly (i.e. one is not necessarily in a rush to get there) a journey of several hundred miles could take a long time. I agree with your overall logic though, about the 20 months. Even taking into account the factors that I have listed, it does seem like it should not take 20 months to go from Benin City by foot to the very borders of Nigeria in any direction. But we can't know exactly at what pace people liked to travel back then.

250 leagues could be about 700 to 900 standard English miles depending on the standard used for "league", and that might still be within the borders of Nigeria if one takes Benin City as the starting point. The "Portuguese maritime league" unit of measurement was about 3.2 nautical miles, which is about 3.68 standard English miles.

Multiplying 250 by 3.68 gives 920 miles. But "920 miles" is probably not going to be exactly what was meant. It could be a bit less, and of course the standard for "league" might not have been strictly adhered to back then (although on the other hand the Portuguese explorers, being experienced sailors would most likely have used standard and well established measurements for distance). From Benin City to Maiduguri is about 820 miles, so it is conceivable to still end up within the borders of modern day Nigeria or just at the borders, if one travels "about 250 leagues" from Benin City, if "250 leagues" is not taken as literally meaning exactly 250 leagues.

Thanks for the conversion from league to miles and estimating the journey from Benin city to Maiduguri to be 850 miles.

I believe the report of the European who visited Lagos a little over a century later in 1603 said daily messages were being sent to Benin from the Benin military garrison in Lagos.

Considering that the journey from Benin city to Lagos is 201 miles and a daily frequency of messages were being sent to Benin city makes the 20 moons journey seems out of this world unless the 250 league is not a true reflection of the 20 moon journey.

Even the very best estimates of the journey and the other evidences of it's location relative to Benin and the reference to cross gifts still completely rules Ife out as being the location of the Ogane (Oghene).

We have to really start examining our history using all available evidences and start producing reports to correct any misrepresentations.

ghostwon:


This ogane story, have you seen any proof to back it ?

No I haven't, but simply just waving it off without applying logic based on available evidences to your objection will allow the other side to continue to repeat the fabrication.

Too many lies being told without objections may begin to sound as truth to those telling the lies and those listening or reading it.

samuk:


No I haven't, but simply just waving it off without applying logic based on available evidences to your objection will allow the other side to continue to repeat the fabrication.

Too many lies being told without objections may begin to sound as truth to those telling the lies and those listening or reading it.

Reply:

ghostwon:


This ogane story, have you seen any proof to back it ?
I mean, don't just take the existence and the claim "Benin spoke about oghene" as true without proof.
I have debunked this oghene story many times. If you show me the document which you are referring to I will hand you it's proper debunking.
Oghane or Orgvene is a mythical Kingdom. Associated with the quest of prester John, an other mythical figure. It is not a real place, and as you have rightly pointed out, the location attributed to it is not that of ife. But it still remains an imaginary place.

ghostwon:


ghostwon:


This ogane story, have you seen any proof to back it ?
I mean, don't just take the existence and the claim "Benin spoke about oghene" as true without proof.
I have debunked this oghene story many times. If you show me the document which you are referring to I will hand you it's proper debunking.
Oghane or Orgvene is a mythical Kingdom. Associated with the quest of prester John, an other mythical figure. It is not a real place, and as you have rightly pointed out, the location attributed to it is not that of ife. But it still remains an imaginary place.

Debunking Ogana as not being or couldn't have been Ife with available evidence and logic is to win half of the battle, at least those that would want to use it as evidence to support their fabrications will be careful next time.

You raised an important point of it being a mythical place. It's better it remains a mythical place than someone trying to ascribed another place to it to hoodwink the less informed.

I bet that those who hurriedly presented it to back up their fabrications of Ife having some preeminence over Benin in the past didn't thought of the problems the content of the report will cause.

How will they now be able to reconcile the various discrepancies in the report.

You must realise that we are also creating our own history by these submissions and interventions, it may not seem so now, but don't be surprised that these write ups may some day became references themselves. The more important reasons, you shouldn't allow any lie or fabrication to go unchallenged.

There was nothing conclusive in that statement. “History has it.........” First, there is absolutely nothing that links Ga people in Accra with Yoruba. Their language is entirely different, foods are different, even their names are nowhere close to Yoruba names. Ga music is even different from Yoruba music, very different. Can you name one thing that The Ga people in Ghana have in common with Yoruba people?

TAO12:


Except that the migration in question here is not some modern-100years-ago migration.

Our occupation of those parts goes back to the ancient kingdom-founding-migration of the Ife princes.

Hear from the supreme King of the Ga people, the Ga Mantse himself in the attachment below:

samuk:


Thanks for the conversion from league to miles and estimating the journey from Benin city to Maiduguri to be 850 miles.

I believe the report of the European who visited Lagos a little over a century later in 1603 said daily messages were being sent to Benin from the Benin military garrison in Lagos.

Considering that the journey from Benin city to Lagos is 201 miles and a daily frequency of messages were being sent to Benin city makes the 20 moons journey seems out of this world unless the 250 league is not a true reflection of the 20 moon journey.

Even the very best estimates of the journey and the other evidences of it's location relative to Benin and the reference to cross gifts still completely rules Ife out as being the location of the Ogane (Oghene).

We have to really start examining our history using all available evidences and start producing reports to correct any misrepresentations.

With regard to traveling from Lagos to Benin City, those envoys that went to Benin City to deliver the news about what was done each day could have gone by boat/canoe, which may have sped things up considerably for much of the journey. Additionally, it is not clear from the original description by Ulsheimer that the two envoys that were dispatched each day were actually reaching Benin City within a day and then returning to Lagos the next day. It could have taken longer than that. They probably used several pairs of alternating envoys, so that it wasn't always the same two people traveling back and forth between Benin City and Lagos the whole year (which would have been tiring/exhausting and possibly also a liability/vulnerability). There probably would have been several pairs of envoys available at Lagos, with only two leaving at a given time to go to Benin City on one day, and with the expectation that they should return to Lagos in a certain number of days. Meanwhile, there would still be other pairs of envoys available to send to Benin City the next day after those two had left, and so on.

SilverSniper4:


With regard to traveling from Lagos to Benin City, those envoys that went to Benin City to deliver the news about what was done each day could have gone by boat/canoe, which may have sped things up considerably for much of the journey. Additionally, it is not clear from the original description by Ulsheimer that the two envoys that were dispatched each day were actually reaching Benin City within a day and then returning to Lagos the next day. It could have taken longer than that. They probably used several pairs of alternating envoys, so that it wasn't always the same two people traveling back and forth between Benin City and Lagos the whole year (which would have been tiring/exhausting and possibly also a liability/vulnerability). There probably would have been several pairs of envoys available at Lagos, with only two leaving at a given time to go to Benin City on one day, and with the expectation that they should return to Lagos in a certain number of days. Meanwhile, there would still be other pairs of envoys available to send to Benin City the next day after those two had left, and so on.

I agree there would have been a more organised and efficient system in place to avoid the Lagos messages being delay too much before reaching Benin.

But what I can't reconcile is equating a 20 moon journey to 250 league or about 900 miles.

It has also been suggested that the Ogane was a mythical kingdom that didn't exist.

Hi SilverSniper—it seems we are all running into spambot issues with long posts. I’ve just read your latest posts that refers to wadls (I’d forgotten the term but Blier uses it quite frequently) but it in fact converges very closely with what I’d typed out. I’ll put my posts below, hopefully in order if the spambot allows for it.

First of all, great post! My situation is precisely the opposite - I'm not near many of the books I have at all, nor do I have access to some of the things I would like to cite (as I alluded to above with regard to Meek's book) but I'll try to make good with the few I have with me if we have another very lengthy discussion as we've had previously. Also, I'll be responding in parts just because I have some other things to get done even in this quarantine/shelter-in-place situation and I can't spare as much time to make super lengthy posts just right now.

It’s a mixed blessing to be home at this time. Even though so many people are dealing with harsh conditions during this quarantine, I’m lucky enough to have time to sort through my library and revisit some of these works and discussions that I enjoy.

Yes I am aware of this idea of the Niger-Benue confluence as some kind of origin or dispersal point for the larger linguistic group that several of the southern and Middle Belt groups in Nigeria belong to and I have read that article by Obayemi in the past. Ryder's focus in the article is more related to the issue of this thread so I didn't want to get into that broader issue of what the origin point of the so called "Kwa" group is right here (as that seems to be another topic in and of itself).

Got it—I honestly assume that you’re already familiar with the vast majority of sources and materials I reference. I like to spell them out in the likely event that many other readers (current and future) might not be aware that some of these points have been known/discussed/analysed for decades.

I did read professor Blier's book on ancient art in Ife years ago so yes, I am aware of this mention of the map from her book. The issue of the depiction of the "king of Organa" and similarly named places/rulers on 14th, 15th and 16th century European maps was actually brought up by Thornton, in his 1988 article on the Ife-Benin relationship, so I was aware of it even earlier (and Blier is well aware of Thornton's article, which she cites at one point in that book). He actually uses that map and others to make his own argument about who he thinks the ruler really is and of course his identification is quite different. (I still disagree with his ultimate conclusion, so my position about the validity of his identification has not changed - I still think that identification is mistaken, just as I did in that other thread where we had a lengthy discussion although some of my reasons have changed slightly.)

Yes, I remember discussing Thornton’s skepticism in this article with you a few years ago. I think his points, like Ryder’s, are well-presented, logical and interesting but agree that they’re ultimately off-base.

Again, forgive the elementary background information but I’m assuming that many people on here citing his 1988 essay on this issue don’t understand that Thornton specializes in West-Central African history (i.e. the Kongo-Angola polities) and their diasporas, and Nigerian history is a bit of a side-step from his main areas of focus. The fact that he’s not a Nigeria-area specialist doesn’t invalidate his scholarship or his conclusions /a priori/ but I thought it might be useful for people to understand where his comparative strengths and interests lie. He is the pre-eminent contemporary historian on Central African military history and in my view can be forgiven if his West African cultural history contains minor errors.

So the possible connection between the Ogane/Hooguanee of the Portuguese reports, and the Organa king/kingdom on the late medieval European maps has been more widely known at least since Thornton's article was published, although other scholars (Richmond Palmer may have been one of them, if I recall correctly) had suggested this connection even earlier, prior to Thornton's article.

I believe Professor Obayemi is usually credited with this first identification of the Ogane/Organa connection in a 1980 paper. I’d have to take another look at Richmond Palmer (are you talking about the old magazine pieces from the 1940s or his book?) but Obayemi’s articles from the 1970s-1980s are where I first came across the concept and Blier also cites him as her source.

I am also familiar with the Catalan Atlas and what it depicts (I even discussed that map on a thread on /that other forum/ - that one where you made an account but didn't post [image:3E262DAA-CB9A-44DA-AC86-D678ABAF8353-7560-00000B937D1AB532/smiley.png]. By the way, were you too annoyed by some of the ignorance, bias, etc. that exists on there and considered it a waste of time to even bother engaging with it, or was it just too boring and nothing on there caught your interest? I'm still somewhat surprised that you didn't make a single post.)

Long story there, but I honestly just got very busy with both work and life responsibilities around that period and subs withdrew from all online posting/engagements for a few years. I really liked the concept of the place and the breadth of discussions happening there (even though my main interest is West Africa and the African diaspora, there were soooo many rich discussions going on that I really expected to be more involved).

I’ve learned over the years (mostly from this place, honestly) that ignorance / bias is just par for the course when it comes to discussing cultural history in a non-specialist / “popular” context. We (especially but not exclusively Black people) have so much invested in feeling like our past and cultural origins are appropriately respected that we become both ultra-sensitive and ultra-aggressive when engaging in what should be calm, measured, positive and even “fun” discussions. I’m not a preacher so I hesitate to counsel people on how to talk and behave, but once I see childish language, insults and aggrandizing language, I tend to ignore the poster and assume I’m dealing with a half-literate person. I can tell by the way you respond to most of the uncouth language that you feel the same way. Time is the only constraint but I’m always up for an engaging discussion on history, ethnography etc.

I would however point out that Cresques' knowledge here must be described as shaky or inadequate if he really did mean to refer to what we might presume that he meant to refer to with that king of Organa figure and kingdom on the map. The Catalan Atlas actually describes the king of Organa in this manner: "a Saracen who waged constant war against the Saracens of the coast and with the other Arabs". The coast he is referring to here seems to be the North African coast. In fact, the way the map is (and where the "Organa" king is positioned) there couldn't be any other coast that he is referring to.

I was probably too effusive in my praise of his accuracy, but as with all things, this is a relative issue. I meant to say that the Catalan Atlas gives us the most accurate map of the known world in the late 14th century, which was an extraordinary period of artistic, economic and cultural “fluorescence” (to steal a phrase from Blier) around the globe. I‘m fairly sure that Cresques himself never visited the majority of places he describes (including everywhere from China to Mali) but in terms of relative accuracy and information, he’s unparalleled. It’s similar to how I think about someone like Richard Burton, who was an unrepentant racist and probably someone I’d never want to sit down with in person, but is truly a shining treasure trove of historical, ethnographic and linguistic information of his time (I remember reading that he spoke something like 29 languages, and having read his works on West Africa and a few of his South American and Asian works, I can believe it).

On the issue of Organa being a Muslim Arab ruler—as you rightly point out, this is obviously a problematic barrier in identifying this polity with a “pagan” ethnically West African ruler, but as with all these historical mysteries we love to investigate, the truth is infinitely more complex than they appear at first glance.

Blier does state in her book that the "Rey de Organa" is "repositioned toward the central Sahara" on the Catalan Atlas (instead of being further south where we would presume he should be if the figure is meant to depict a ruler closer to the part of west Africa we are discussing). It seems that in fact the positioning was not a "repositioning" and the real reason for the position was that Cresques did not really see the "Organa" kingdom as being what we are referring to in this discussion (so I am not sure that he had a real understanding of the polities of the region we are talking about if the Rey de Organa is meant to depict a west African ruler from somewhere in or near Nigeria), hence Cresques' map presenting the idea that the king of Organa was an Arab that fought other Arabs, and hence the ruler's depiction on the map as an Arab/Saracen.

Thornton did of course argue (on p. 356 of his 1988 article) that the positioning of Organa on the "best" maps from the Catalan school of cartographers should be interpreted as implying that the Rey de Organa was really south of the desert and closer to the Niger river (the "Nile" on that part of the map). But he also made an interesting comment, or admission, in note 20 (on pp. 360-361) at the end of the article. He mentioned in that note that the historian Tadeusz Lewicki, in his article "Le Royaume d'Organa des cartes européennes du XIV e au XVIe siècle" (1976) actually "summarizes the existing arguments and provides a strong argument for identifying Organa with the oasis state of Ouargla".

I’m so glad you pointed this out, as this point is another example of an approach I resolved to take many years ago when I started following these issues. You have to respect the integrity of scholars like Thornton (and Ryder too, in the earlier essay) who diligently put forward and analyze the flaws and alternative explanations for their hypotheses, even if they ultimately disagree with those conclusions.

Ouargla is certainly a plausible alternative explanation for this “Rey de Organa” and ultimately, it may be the right one. I’ll show in the next segment though that Ouargla itself by dint of its location as an oasis and as a trans-Saharan trading center was likely linked to the cultural and economic production center in the Niger-Benue confluence region and in fact may partially owe its medieval prominence to that area. In showing this, I think Cresques’s conflation of a West African polity-potentate and North African/Arab trading entrepôt is entirely understandable and is reflective of other similar conflations of trading ports and hinterland production centers that we know of in history. (By the way, I want to be clear that I’m not just using fancy words as synonyms for “king” and “kingdom” for the hell of it—I have long believed and argued that these European-specific terms are too loaded and in some ways insufficient to accurately portray West African government of this “medieval” era, just as words like “chief” obscure traditional title-holding roles in the modern era).

Ouargla is in the Sahara, and given the cultural background that Ouargla would have had at the time the map was made it would be quite understandable why the king of Organa would be depicted and described as a Saracen, if Cresques was indeed referring to Ouargla. Considering that the sounds "l" and "n" often end up being interchanged in words in various languages (this is a very common linguistic phenomenon; I don't recall the word for it), the name Ouargla is actually close to Organa even in sound and appearance.

There's also something else notable about Ouargla besides the fact that the cultural background of a medieval sultan of Ouargla would be a better fit for the depiction and description of the king of Organa given in the Catalan Atlas. It was apparently one of the oldest towns in the Sahara (or at least it is described as such in multiple sources) and it was also a major player in the trans-Saharan trade:

"By 911, the Shi'ite Fatimids ovethrew the kingdom of Tahert as well as established their control over Sijilmasa [southern Morocco] and Ouargla or Wargla. It was the Fatimids who founded the city of Mahdiya as their capital around 915. It was however in 947 under the ruler Fatimid al-Mansur that they established Mansuria, slightly southwest of Kairouan, as a new capital to replace Mahdiya. Associated with these changes, *Ouargla emerged as the dominant northern terminus of the major gold-bearing trans-Saharan route that led from Gao*. " - Stefan Goodwin, Africa's Legacies Of Urbanization: Unfolding Saga of a Continent, p. 88

This major role in international trade would probably make this city a noteworthy place for a map-maper and that is probably one reason why the the ruler (sultan) of Ouargla might be depicted on a later medieval map.

R and L are liquid phonemes and you’re describing the well-known phenomenon of rhotic and lateral switching (in Nigeria, we make stereotypical jokes about certain groups who show this tendency but it’s actually fairly common; in Cuba, for instance, the Efik/Ibibio/Annang etc cultural complex was often known as the Carabali, despite putatively hailing from the port of Calabar. So, your point absolutely makes sense and could explain this issue satisfactorily.

The point I was making earlier is that Ouargla’s emergence in the 10th century actually suggests that the Algerian port might be a younger polity than the “Ife / Ufe” under discussion, if we are to follow Professor Blier’s timeline and the dating of both the “kinglist” or dynastic poetry of the Ikedu text and the Ife archaeological record. I grant that I’m not familiar enough with Ouargla’s founding or archaeological records in the area to say this definitively and common sense would suggest that it’s probably much older than its “emergent” trading period suggested in your Goodwin quote. Going back to the Ikedu/Blier/Ife archaeological record though, occupation of the current site of Ife is attested to by 400 BCE and dynastic organization appears to have emerged (the “pre-Oduduwa” period) around 700 CE as I mentioned yesterday.

On to the central importance of trading (it all comes down to the money) and the infinitely valuable reference you made to the sources of Ouargla’s wealth!

You also mentioned Cresques' background as part of a Jewish trading family. Interestingly, Ouargla did actually have a significant population of Jews in the Middle Ages:

"M'zab Jewry are apparently the descendants of Jews from Tahert, an ancient metropolis destroyed in 902 C.E., but also from Sedrata and Ouargla in the important region of Ifriqiyya – which in ancient and medieval times contained the territories of present-day Libya and Tunisia. *Ouargla was a center of Karaite Jews*. Until 1300 the Jewish community of the M'zab was reinforced demographically by Jews from the island of *Djerba (southern Tunisia) and Jebel Nafusa (the region of Tripolitania in modern Libya). Overwhelmingly residing in Ghardaia, *the Jews were mainly employed as goldsmiths as well as being suppliers of ostrich feathers whose exports to Europe were monopolized by their coreligionists in parts of the Mediterranean*."

[https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/m-x0027-zab](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/m-x0027-zab)

Your very last sentence is the crux of my argument about the accuracy of the map and the importance of portraying Mansa Musa’s Mali, which in the 1300s was considered the premier source of gold for Western Europe. The Internet these days is flooded with references to Mansa Musa as the wealthiest person in world history so his historical wealth has become almost a bit of a joke, but it is indisputable that the inflation caused by his pilgrimage and his fame in the medieval era raised European (and global) awareness of West Africa’s wealth. Gold is well-recognized as a luxury good produced in our region but the other article mentioned (“ostrich feathers”) would not stand out to contemporary readers as a high-priced fashion item.

In medieval Europe however, this was one of the most lucrative trading items and expensive luxury gifts for hundreds, if not thousands of years. There is an extensive literature on the market for these items—and the related trade in ivory, which I’ll also come to—that I won’t delve into now but suffice to say that ostrich plumes are referenced in your example because of the immense value European nobility (and later upper middle-class consumers) placed on them as items of fashion. Exotically-colored (if readers can visualize very large peacock feathers) and worn as part of an expensive gentleman’s hat (think of the Three Musketeers) or noble lady’s hats, the access and ability to wear the plumes of tropical birds in that era would have held the same value as Tahitian pearls or crocodile-skin Birkin bags may hold in ours. These were the luxury items to own of the day. As with the expensive fur coats of yesteryear, they have largely lost their luster and prestige in contemporary fashion. If you or other readers are interested, I’d recommend Paul Lovejoy’s works on trans-Saharan trade from what is now northern Nigeria to North Africa, but there’s a slew of material on this topic to be found.

A more recent treatment of the importance of these items in colonial and Victorian and Edwardian times is “‘Falling into Feathers’: Jews and the Trans‐Atlantic Ostrich Feather Trade” by Sarah Abrevaya Stein from The Journal of Modern History/, vol. 79, no. 4, 2007, pp. 772–812. It’s available on JSTOR if you have an account but focuses on the South African trade of the 19th century and less on the millennia-old North-West African trade route referenced in your example. Her book on the topic is titled “Plume: Ostrich Feathers, Jews and a Lost World of Global Commerce”—I can’t recommend it as I haven’t had a chance to read it (it’s on the list!) but the title gives you some idea of the importance of this trade.

This is pertinent to our topic because the plume/feather and ivory trade were among the leading items of commerce, following gold, that West Africa exported globally during this medieval period. A third item of crucial importance is glass, which was only manufactured in a very few locales around the world in this period (Ile-Ife being a prominent example) but I don’t want to distract from this exotic plume trade. It was prominent and lucrative enough to be referenced as a core trade item alongside gold in Ouargla by your source, which gives us a sense of its importance.

While the trading ports into Europe were, like Ouargla, located in North Africa and near to the Mediterranean, the source of these feathers were in the interior, beyond the Sahara (where agriculture and animal husbandry were obviously fairly limited) and into the savanna and tropical forests of West, Central and East Africa where ostriches, parrots, elephants, giraffes and these other exotic luxury products roamed and could be procured by trained hunters from those regions.

The current site of Ile-Ife is located in a bowl-shaped region of present-day Osun state that once teemed with elephants, exotic birds, and several scholars have proposed that collective hunting of these animals resulted in the growth of urbanization in that area. Hunters often feature as founding figures in the foundational myths of Yoruba towns and as explorers, scouts and soldiers, are one of the central professions (alongside traditional doctors, blacksmiths/metallurgists, long-distance traders etc). In fact both Clapperton and Sultan Bello explicitly identify parrots, exotic and “wonderful” or rare trade goods (presumably including plumage) as a key trade item from Yorubaland in the early 19th century (happy to provide references later if interested) but I’m less interested in the specific locales than I am in the concept that these items of trade—ivory, plumes, exotic skins and leathers, and perhaps glass beadwork and indigo-dyed textiles—were known to be sourced from the region around the Niger-Benue confluence and points north and south of there.

These were so valuable that they are commemorated in the copper-alloy work from this region. P. 28 of Blier’s “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba” contains examples and she elaborates on page 53, saying:

“Found at the Niger River site of Tada with the two cire-perdue Ogboni-linked sculptures were two large copper alloy figures of ostriches (plate 8.h) and an exquisitely rendered baby elephant (plate 8.i) in the same cire-perdue material. These animals were commissioned as shrine furnishings most likely because both feathers and ivory tusks comprised valued commodities in international trade that fed through the Tada site. The elephant represents the most valuable item of the forested areas of southern Nigeria today, the ostrich references a valued trade good from the more northerly savanna areas of this same country. Most likely the seated and standing Ogboni-style onile figures from Tada assumed a similar role in helping to resolve regional commercial disputes and other issues. Bathed each week in the Niger River, then polished, these works also helped promote increase and fertility in relationship to animals, crops, goods, and humans in and on the Niger River.”

Updated to correct some of the HTML bolding/italicizing errors and to correct my reference to Usman Dan Fodio on the exotic exports trade—I meant Sultan Muhammad Bello’s short treatise from the 1820s.

All this points to a reason to expect a direct link between the polity represented by our putative Ogane/Oghene in the vicinity of the Niger River, and Ouargla in modern-day Algeria. One was the source of important products—exotic feathers and ivory in this case, but some proposals also suggest gold—while the other was the port of both entry and dispersal to European consumers. It would be far too speculative to propose a link between the two names, but it is very easy to see why a medieval cartographer might conflate both source and port into one entity.

The example I alluded to earlier (I’m sure there are others but this is what comes to mind now) is Ibn-Battuta’s Yufi, which is also a confusion of at least two places in Africa. Ibn-Battuta writes that “The Nile (i.e. Niger, an age-long confusion of the two rivers that wasn’t cleared up until the 19th century) descends from Timbuktu to Gao] then to the town of Muli in the land of the Limis, which is the frontier province of Mali (*MY NOTE: i.e. Mansa Musa’s Mali—and keep in mind this description is also from the mid-1300s and thus basically contemporary with the Catalan Atlas*); thence to Yufi, one of the largest towns of the negroes, whose ruler is one of the most considerable of negro rulers. It cannot be visited by any white man because they would kill him before he got there. From Yufi the Nile descends into the land of the Nuba...” etc. (translation from “Ibn Battuta’s Africa: Bronze and Gold in Mid-Iron Age Africa,” Transafrican Journal of History, Vol. 10, 1981 by J.E. Sutton, but obviously translated and available in many other forms).

I bring this up because while it is clear that Ibn Battuta is referencing an important (but unvisited) polity in the region of Mali in West Africa, famous as a production center for a valuable material but supposedly hostile to foreign, non-African visitors. Yet earlier in the same book, he had described this “Yufi” as being located somewhere in southeastern Africa (Sutton supposes somewhere in the vicinity of Zimbabwe). This is likely because in that region of East Africa, there was also a prominent urban center peopled by “pagan” Africans exporting gold and other valuable luxury products. The name “Yufi” is likely historically accurate for at least one of them—and obviously the contention I support is that it’s likely to refer to Ife/Ufe—but the conflation during an era of global exploration and the first recorded contacts during economic expansion—is understandable. “Yufi” was a bit of a convenient shorthand for a “type” of society for Ibn-Battuta—an African polity that was wealthy enough to be noteworthy but foreign enough in religion and mores to be a mystery. My reading is that Cresques perhaps makes the same type of conflation in discussing a “Rey de Organa” that is placed next to Mansa Musa and Mali on the Catalan Atlas but is represented by a North African Muslim ruler (who very well may have been the more familiar leader of Ouargla.

A hint of this is seen when you look at the figure of a nearly-nude black man leading a camel right next to the “Saracen” Rey de Organa on the Catalan map—it is a clear allusion to trade with non-Muslim Africans (we can infer this from the lack of Islamic clothing) and their connection with camels, which are the beast of burden of trans-Saharan trade. As a mapmaker, Cresques does not write out the details in text but represents them graphically in the tradition of cartography. Perhaps even more subtly as a member of a trading family belonging to a persecuted minority with a near-monopoly on this trade in exotic luxury goods, he wanted to allude to the source of North African luxury trade materials in this region without explicitly divulging trade secrets.

Either way, the link between this Muslim “Saracen” Arab or North African “Rey De Organa” and his tie to the non-Muslim African, the trade in exotic goods that brought wealth and prominence to both Ife/Ufe/Yufi and ports like Ouargla, and the logical reasons to conflate the two can be seen. This link is clearly supposition on my part, and many other scholars make the point that the “Organa” should rightly refer to the Ogane/Oghene on geographic and economic reasons alone (just as others believe that Ouargla would be the more correct interpretation). I’m just offering an alternative analysis that proposes a link between both entities and explains a possible reason to conflate them in this emergent era of global trade.

I am familiar with the background of the Portuguese search for "Prester John" (incidentally "Prester John" is actually indicated in the Catalan Atlas, on panel IV), however I think that this depiction of the "Rey de Organa" on the Catalan Atlas is not likely to have been a motivating factor in their search for Prester John in west Africa. Considering that Cresques depicts him as war waging "Saracen" and taking into account the attitudes that probably existed in 15th century Christian Iberia with respect to "Moors", "Saracens", etc. that seems unlikely. Thornton suggests, more plausibly, on p. 356 of his 1988 article, that the maps they used which led them to /later/ identify "Organa" with Prester John were certain later maps, rather than the Catalan Atlas.

I'll try to respond to rest of your post as I get time.

Edit: Upon re-reading your last paragraph above, I realized you were actually alluding to the fact that the Portuguese were later to explore the west coast of Africa in search of the source of the gold that was flowing in the trans-Saharan trade (in addition to seeking Prester John in Africa as a Christian ally against the Muslims; they were carrying out the two objectives simultaneously). So I think I did misinterpret that last paragraph of yours in my initial response and actually I agree that the Catalan Atlas, with its depiction and description of Mansa Musa and his abundant gold and wealth, would have been an impetus for their desire to explore west Africa in the 15th century. Since that is what you seem to be alluding to (their search for the source of the gold in west Africa that was going north in the trans-Saharan trade) then there's no disagreement that the map would have been a major inspiration for them.

Professor Blier has done some exciting preliminary work on this “Prester John” question and has made excellent and compelling arguments for the possible influence of the Coptic Church in medieval West Africa. Much of her work actually ties into your point on Ouargla, as she’s focused on the importance of oasis towns in the Sahara as trading ports and rest-stops on the millennia-old trans-Saharan trade routes. These routes are literally the same ones our fellow Nigerians follow to this day when attempting to cross over to Europe through undocumented migration, which is a sad but poignant reminder of how long Africans have exploited and exported our wealth—both human and material—to enrich the cities and citizens of others. There is a long YouTube lecture where she touches on some of this material that I can post if you’re interested.

But you are right—my main focus was on the search for the source of the gold at the heart of Europe’s economy in this period. The allied trade in exotic/luxury goods like plumes, leather (a leading export of Kano and the Hausa city-states that was for hundreds of years ascribed to Morocco, for another example of conflation between producer and port), ivory and jewelry in glass and polished stone is a less well-known but not necessarily less important economic aspect to this question of Ogane, Oghene, Organa, Ooni (and, I would posit, Ogboni). There is even a fruitful avenue of exploration in the related Nigerian cultures that place great prominence and emphasis on exotic plumage—I think of the traditional headdresses worn during the Ofala festival in Onitsha, and the use of eagle and parrot feathers in certain religious ceremonies, but I am certain that there many more examples in Benin and other places that I’m not as familiar with.

In addition, there is a related thread of discussion on geography and directions—why some descriptions may cite east instead of west, north instead of south etc—that is worth having as well (have you ever read Robin Law’s “Central and Eastern Wangara:" An Indigenous West African Perception of the Political and Economic Geography of the Slave Coast as Recorded by Joseph Dupuis in Kumasi, 1820”? This gave me some extremely valuable insights into traditional concepts of geography and cartography when I first read it, even though it doesn’t directly touch on this discussion).

Forgive the delayed response as well—even though I’m at home with more free time than usual, there’s still work and home responsibilities to attend to. I’ve typed out this response separately so I wouldn’t lose it spambots etc so please excuses typos and omissions. It’s always a sincere pleasure to have a well-informed and civil conversation with someone like you, and it gives me a rare opportunity to put my thoughts and analysis in order and commit this stuff to writing. Looking forward to reading your view and any input from other informed readers.

One last point, as this just caught my eye in reading your most recent post (I’d written the reply above before I’d had a chance to read it)—Suzanne Blier is a fluent French speaker and actually developed her initial interest in African art history while serving in the Peace Corps in the Republic of Benin (then-Dahomey) in the late 1960s. She has talked about how her interest in Ife developed because it was often referenced as the source of Fa and a place of ancestral importance to Dahomean diviners and sources that she interviewed during that time. She’s also given several prominent lectures and interviews in French that are available online.

None of this guarantees that she’s aware of the prevailing French literature on Ouargla of course, but I would be surprised if she was not familiar with the material you cited. Most importantly, her latest work is quite literally centered on the importance of wadls in the trans-Saharan movement of goods from West African (producers) to North Africa (ports) and ultimately Europe (consumers). The contemporary analogue would be something like the crude oil market.

MumuCountry:
There was nothing conclusive in that statement. “History has it.........” First, there is absolutely nothing that links Ga people in Accra with Yoruba. Their language is entirely different, foods are different, even their names are nowhere close to Yoruba names. Ga music is even different from Yoruba music, very different. Can you name one thing that The Ga people in Ghana have in common with Yoruba people?

I think it is important that you allow them be the Yoruba they claim to be in peace.

Read from the Ga Mantse once again below:

samuk:


I agree there would have been a more organised and efficient system in place to avoid the Lagos messages being delay too much before reaching Benin.

But what I can't reconcile is equating a 20 moon journey to 250 league or about 900 miles.

It has also been suggested that the Ogane was a mythical kingdom that didn't exist.

The Portuguese account says that the Ogane's is "some 20 moons" walking distance away from Benin kingdom because of "slow pace" travel.

Is Ife actually some 20 moons' walking distance away from Benin kingdom at some olden days "slow pace" ??

Here, there is a natural temptation to attempt determining the walking duration between Benin and Ife using Google maps.

The consequent error from this temptation would result from the fact that walking durations on Google maps are based on assumptions that become less realistic the longer distances get.

For example, Google maps will not factor-in the "slow-pace" which the Portuguese account clearly acknowledges.

It will not consider how many stops were made, and how many days were spent camping or resting for each stop.

It simply assumes a quite rapid constant pace of continous, no pause, non-stop movement, come rain-come shine, come day-come night, without sleep, without rest, through out the entire lenght of the trip.

This is obviously very impracticable. In fact, Google maps always warn, even for very short distances saying: "Use caution --- walking directions may not always reflect real-world conditions."

The blatant error inherent in an attempt to use Google maps to answer the earlier raised question thus becomes very obvious.

To then answer the earlier raised question quite correctly, it is important that one first determines what may have been the pace of long walking trip traditionally in this part of the world.

A piece of data which I find very useful to find this traditional pace is seen in C. Okojie cited in Ryder (1965), p.27.

He noted that it traditionally took from 4months to 6months to complete a walking trip from Uromi (Ishan) to Benin-City --- a distance of some 50miles.

Based on the foregoing highly invaluable piece of data given by Okojie, alongside the well-known distance betwen Benin and Ife (i.e. about 171miles); we can therefore estimate the duration it must have traditionally taken (in months) to journey from Benin to Ife.

Calculation:
--------------------
(a) IF Ishan and Benin which are
about 50miles apart took about 5months long traditionally.

(b) THEN Benin and Ife which are about 171miles apart would have taken about (171÷50)×5months long traditionally.

When evaluated, this walking duration from Benin to Ife, based on the available traditional data came to more than 17 months.

In fact, strictly speaking, 17 months is the equivalence of 19 moons. I am happy to demonstrate this Math as well.


This (i.e. more than 19 moons) therefore comes to be reasonably equal to the "some 20 moons" of the Portuguese document, in contrast to an irrational and unrealistic result of 2 days from Google maps.

Cheers!

The Ga Mantse said: “History has it......” Which history? By the way, I speak the Ga language and I am very familiar with the history of the Ga people. Yes, people say stuff, but where is the hard evidence? Where is the historical evidence? Can you name one, apart from what the Ga Mantse said? .

TAO12:


I think it is important that you allow them be the Yoruba they claim to be in peace.

Read from the Ga Mantse once again below:

MumuCountry:
The Ga Mantse said: “History has it......” Which history? By the way, I speak the Ga language and I am very familiar with the history of the Ga people. Yes, people say stuff, but where is the hard evidence? Where is the historical evidence? Can you name one, apart from what the Ga Mantse said? .

Which history is he talking of? See JAMB question.

No, he is talking of the history of Russia. /s


Your unverifiable claim of "I speak Ga language" is at best inconsequential, and at worst delusional.

No sane person would ignore the testimony of a man (the King of a people) about himself and his people; and then align with what unknown-and-unrelated -you have to say about those same people.

Do you also catch the joke??

No, I don’t catch your “joke.”

And why is it soo hard to provide one tangible evidence to link the Ga people with Yoruba?

TAO12:


Which history is he talking of? See JAMB question.

No, he is talking of the history of Russia. /s


Your unverifiable claim of "I speak Ga language" is at best inconsequential, and at worst delusional.

No sane person would ignore the testimony of a man (the King of a people) about himself and his people; and then align with what unknown-and-unrelated -you have to say about those same people.

Do you also catch the joke??

MumuCountry:
No, I don’t catch your “joke.”

And why is it soo hard to provide one tangible evidence to link the Ga people with Yoruba?

That's the point of the joke (at least for the moment) because it's on you.

Moreover, my point about the Ga people and the Yoruba is that you Edos sbould leave them alone and let them speak for themselves.

They've identified as originally Yoruba from Ife again and again. And that's all that matters.

Let them be!