Etinosa1234:


Which historical evidence supports this...

U go just dey ur Brown roof dey talk wetin nor happen

davidnazee:


You are obviously troubled by Benin treatment of Lagos.. only a troubled person can distort history so much the way you do..
For the umpteenth time, Ulsheimer served in Great Benin powerful miltary and fought in the campaign against Lagos (Aworis, your tribe).. You can see it in the attachment below and if you like intepret it to mean he was a cassava farmer in Lagos, na your way be that.. or you can even start to insult him for his role in annhilating the Aworis (your tribe)

TAO11:


(7) Nope! I never said that R. Smith agreed with the Lagos account, neither did I say that he disagreed with it.

What I was educating you on is simply about the significance of the word "impression" in that context - viz. “conviction”, “notion”, “effect”, “depiction”, “representation”, “portrayal”, , “perception”, “impact”, etc.

In the light of this understanding, R. Smith’s statement which reads: "The impression given by Lagos tradition is that this was achieved by peaceful infiltration rather than by conquest" is therefore equivalent to saying something like:

"The Lagos tradition depicts that this was achieved by peaceful infiltration rather than by conquest"

And my original point in this regard was that R. Smith states this Lagos account. I never claimed that he passed any judgement on it.

hayoholla:


Bro, why are you ignorantly stubborn? When it seems you've been beaten to a corner, you ask for archeological evidence

MetaPhysical:


Bini kept slave stock. Historical accounts say those stocks were sold and at one point the palace stopped selling them and started using the stock to sacrifice to Yoruba deities. History says Edo were the ethnic stock.

To prove it, history went further to provide evidence that your ancestors, as slaves, were forbidden from wearing clothes unless they were first granted an okay from palace to cover nak3dn3ss.

History says all these, not me.

TAO11:


(4) Nope! Only the Lagos account of peaceful infiltration (rather than royal conquest) gels with the historical fact that Edo language was never a court language at any point in time in Lagos' history.

Regarding Oba Akiolu's ancestry, I have addressed this already. All you need do is form the habit of always reading what you will be replying to.

I have already stated that the present dynasty of Lagos' kings trace their ancestry to Benin – but through King Ado's Benin mother.

King Ashipa who is King Ado's father is an Awori royalty from Isheri. Therefore, the Lagos kings also trace their ancestry to Isheri – through King Ado's Awori father.

However, this situation persisted just as depicted here only up to the 5th reign. Something changed – along the line – from the 6th reign till date.

King Kutere (the 6th king) ascended the throne not by virtue of his father (who is an Ijesa 'mystic' of no royal status), but by virtue of his mother who is the daughter of King Ado. After this one-off paternal interruption, the paternal succession continued again uninterrupted from King Kutere till date.

Now, in the light of this background, it is quite understandable why all the kings from King Kutere to King Akiolu ratified the practice of not tracing their ancestry strictly paternally, but rather through the Queen Mother Kuti (daughter of King Ado and mother of King Kutere), and then to King Ado.

From King Ado, the upward line through King Ado's Benin mother is more often emphasized (than the upward line through King Ashipa which simply leads to Isheri) for obvious reasons.

These reasons being that (1) Benin Kingdom is relatively way more influential than the Isheri Kingdom, and (2) Prince Ashipa had formed his alliance with the Benin government/people during the Isale-Eko succession tussle between him and other rightful Awori prince-candidates.

It is not impossible that another rightful Awori prince-candidate had formed a similar alliance with the Isheri Kingdom during this tussle. From all these considerations, Benin Kingdom thus came to be more often emphasized in the tracing of Lagos' kings ancestry.


Regarding your attempt to link the name "Ashipa" to the Edo language (by claiming that it is originally "Esikpa" from the words "Aisika-hienbore"), the meaning of these Edo words does not support this attempt. "We shall not desert this place" can not possibly or logically refer to someone's name. This patchwork therefore falls flat on its nose.

On the other hand, the word "Ashipa" is clearly a Yoruba name which is ancient and widespread among Yoruba culture. This fact is a strong linguistic evidence which corroborates the Lagos account that the first King, “Ashipa” is indeed of Yoruba descent.

TAO11:


(1) You’re obviously so sad to find that that there are, in fact, two (and not just one) traditional accounts of the Lagos historical events. Lol.

Whether you like it or you hate it, the Benin traditional account is only one account of the Lagos events. As is to be normally expected, the Lagos traditional account too rightfully speaks to the events.

And these two accounts differ on important details such as the manner of settling down of the Binis (peaceful infiltration vs. royal conquest), the identity of Ashipa (a Bini vs. a Yoruba), etc. Your reference, R. Smith (1988) also cited the existence of the Lagos position.

Regarding which of the two traditional account is true, I have already discussed the evidence of the truth of the Lagos account and the falsehood of the Benin account (you just need to form the habit of reading before replying).

The Lagos account maintains that the Binis and others settled in Lagos by peaceful infiltration. This is accurate because had the Binis settled otherwise by a royal conquest, the use of Edo languages as the Lagos court language (or in some part of Lagos) would have been found in history. But there is no hint of any such thing in recorded or oral history.

Also, the Lagos account maintains that the first King of the present dynasty, Ashipa, is a Yoruba. This is also accurate because while the name Ashipa is conspicuously absent from Edo names (despite Chief Egheravba’s admirable attempt. Lol), the name Ashipa is found everywhere in Yoruba names, e.g. from 1500 Oyo.

For the umpteenth time, Josua Ulsheimer’s account did NOT corroborate the Benin claim of settling-in by conquest. Nowhere does Ulsheimer's account provide any such corroboration. You may choose to stop fooling yourself by yourself. Lol.

Rather, what Josua Ulsheimer’s account corroborates here is the historical fact of conflicts in Lagos. He noted simply that the Bini side was camped on one of the islands.

Ulsheimer was writing about this in 1603 when he visited, the Binis (and others) had long settled in Lagos before Ulsheimer. In sum, Ulsheimer could not possibly have witnessed the settling-in of the Binis (by conquest or otherwise). He cannot possibly witness and document what had happened prior to him.

Moreover, regarding the word "impression", I had suspected that I will be providing some tuition on the English language (considering how you once equated the word “perhaps” to mean “certainty”.

Anyways, the word “impression”, especially in the context of its use by R. Smith (in the sentence: “The impression given by Lagos tradition”) signifies the following: “conviction”, “notion”, “effect”, “depiction”, “representation”, “portrayal”, , “perception”, “impact”, etc. Gosh!

Self-inflicted ignorance is indeed a terrible thing. Do yourself the big favour of rising above inferiority complex.


[Continue reading below]

Cc: TAO12, MetaPhysical, lawani, gomojam, BabaRamota1980, hayoholla, Babtoundey, Moneywomen17

sesan85:
What "historical evidence" supports that fact that all the Obas of Lagos from Ologun Kutere are descendants of Alaagba, the Ijesha Babalawo of Oba Akinshemoyin? It's a fact that Alaagba, the Ijesha man, was the father of Oba Ologun Kutere. What "historical evidence" are you looking for?

RuggedSniper:
^^^First off @TAO11, I'm commending your doggedness on this thread, your good usage of written English with very tiny to mostly no typographic errors... and this shows that you pay attention to little details. 2. Ok... As an avid reader and lover of genealogy and world history for over 40 years now, I've read a lot of world/Nigerian history books such as: THE HISTORY OF NIGERIA by Sir Allan Burns (In the 1920s, he was a Governor of Ghana and an Acting-Governor General of Nigeria. The book can also be read for free via Google Books). In the book's chapter on LAGOS HISTORY, Ashipa was clearly referred to as a YORUBA man from among the Yoruba nobility of Isheri who gained the friendship and support of the then Bini monarchy. Ashipa (or Asipa) then returned from the Bini Kingdom with the assistance of royal aides that came back with him and set up a monarchy on EKO Island which was of YORUBA/BINI origin and traditions! The children of Olofin (who are the official land owners or IDEJO till today) REJECTED the new monarchy on their Island but were accepted into EKO aristocratic activities as WHITE CAP CHIEFS. 3. Indeed Ashipa is a widely used name that is of Yoruba origin from ancient times. 4. Last but not least, in his coronation speech in 2016... Which you can still read online, Oba Ewuare the 2nd, then newly crowned king of Bini Kingdom clearly stated that it is Oranmiyan (and NOT his son-Oba Eweka) that was the 1st Oba of Bini Kingdom while he is currently the 40th Oba! Cheers to you and everyone reading this.

gomojam:

davidnazee:


You are obviously troubled by Benin treatment of Lagos.. only a troubled person can distort history so much the way you do..
For the umpteenth time, Ulsheimer served in Great Benin powerful miltary and fought in the campaign against Lagos (Aworis, your tribe).. You can see it in the attachment below and if you like intepret it to mean he was a cassava farmer in Lagos, na your way be that.. or you can even start to insult him for his role in annhilating the Aworis (your tribe)

Etinosa1234:


how is it a fact... Post the historian that supports this claim

in as much as u deny ashipa being Benin I'll also deny ashipa as being of ijesha descent except u have proof... solid onr

sesan85:
Dude, I'm talking about Alaagba, not Ashipa. Ashipa's Origin is not my business. Just setting the record straight that all the Obas of Lagos from Oba Ologun Kutere are descendants of the Ijesha man Alaagba. The Obas of Lagos since then have been Patrilineally Ijesha (Yoruba), not Benin. It's not in your place to deny that fact, amigo.

Etinosa1234:


But ur Oba traced his lineage to Benin

https://m.guardian.ng/sunday-magazine/lagos-oba-traces-origin-to-benin/

Etinosa1234:


I'm basically tired of having this argument with u...
Aisikpa-hienvborre was corrupted to Ashipa.. or shortened.... after u heard the meaning of the name but instead discarded it... There are many sources that state that it was a shortened name but time would not allow me to do the research

And for the umpteenth time when Josua came...He saw a military camp...in the island...He mentioned Lagos island...
Now let me tell u...u can't set up a military camp without military aims..
u can't set up a military camp in someone's area without fight... u dey claim I too know ..when Josua account was clearly shown to have corroborated the account...is it not clear to u.... Ur only source is Akintoye but u go play down other Benin account
Lol Akintoye account is true because he's a seasoned historian...and Egharevba work that was revised in university of Ibadan and in Michigan is fake....Na u go still talk shit abt Edo blogs like say dem nor do research but still post abt Akintoye (say Na seasoned... seasoned ko,maggi ni)

You are consoling yourself ongoing conflict btw the Benin and Awori.. But ur source is Akintoye .. was Akintoye alive then

Having said so... pls answer my simple question..
let's assume the Lagos account is true(of which it isn't)Esp with the fact that u claimed according to Lagos Ibadan reports, the Benin military commander (Asheru) was killed by the Awori

1)If Lagos was peacefully infiltrated, What were the circumstances that made it a vassal of the Benin Empire

2) If Lagos was peacefully infiltrated,What gave Benin the undisputed right to choose who becomes the next oba

3)If Lagos was peacefully infiltrated, what were the circumstances that made Lagos to be paying annual tributes for over 200yrs...

4) if Lagos was peacefully infiltrated, why were ur previous oba being buried in Benin...land nor dey lagos
Thanks ..I expect ur straightforward reply

if u like Post 12 page reply...if it doesn't fit my answer...u go explain am again

The last picture is from Robert Smith the book The Lagos consulate .... I'm pretty u know better than Robert... Social media champion

davidnazee, gregyboy , edeyoung... this one wey Tao never answer for up to 2hrs despite the fact that her last seen is 1.20pm, Una know wetin be the problem... Shey Na so she dey do

sesan85:
I can make a bet with my last life that Akiolu never made this ahistorical, codeine-influenced comment from the spurious, dubious link you shared: . "Traditionally, Aworis
were found in Ile- ife; they were known
to be the Binis, who followed their self -
exiled prince, the first son of the Ogiso
(now called Oba ) of Benin Kingdom,
whose stepmother was after his head .
“ The exiled Benin Prince Izoduwa,
known to Yoruba as Ooduwa (Oduduwa ),
was made ruler of the Ife people due to
his powers and followers from the great
Benin Kingdom.
“ Izoduwa (Ooduwa) was made the first
king of Ile- Ife in 1230 AD. His followers
from his father’ s Kingdom in Benin are
today’s Awori people, who settled in Eko
now called Lagos." Whichever fraudulent Benin revisionist attributed this horseshit to Akiolu should try harder. The Aworis, the descendants of Ogunfunminire, were Binis? Awori people have suffered!

sesan85:
Dude, I'm talking about Alaagba, not Ashipa. Ashipa's Origin is not my business. Just setting the record straight that all the Obas of Lagos from Oba Ologun Kutere are descendants of the Ijesha man Alaagba. The Obas of Lagos since then have been Patrilineally Ijesha (Yoruba), not Benin. It's not in your place to deny that fact, amigo.

gregyboy:


. And the oba of Lagos still identify as benin why? Una self na mouth una dey nothing more


How come ijesha are the ones ruling ?
is lagos monarchy not father to son like benin i want to here more of this

Etinosa1234:


I'm basically tired of having this argument with u...
(A) Aisikpa-hienvborre was corrupted to Ashipa.. or shortened.... after u heard the meaning of the name but instead discarded it... There are many sources that state that it was a shortened name but time would not allow me to do the research

(B) And for the umpteenth time when Josua came...He saw a military camp...in the island...He mentioned Lagos island...

Etinosa1234:


well tell that to ur oba that said it and guardian that made the headline

Etinosa1234:
(C)Now let me tell u...u can't set up a military camp without military aims..
u can't set up a military camp in someone's area without fight... u dey claim I too know ..

(D) when Josua account was clearly shown to have corroborated the account...is it not clear to u.... Ur only source is Akintoye but u go play down other Benin account

(E) Lol Akintoye account is true because he's a seasoned historian...and Egharevba work that was revised in university of Ibadan and in Michigan is fake....Na u go still talk shit abt Edo blogs like say dem nor do research but still post abt Akintoye (say Na seasoned... seasoned ko,maggi ni)

Etinosa1234:
(F) You are consoling yourself ongoing conflict btw the Benin and Awori.. But ur source is Akintoye .. was Akintoye alive then

(G) Having said so... pls answer my simple question..
let's assume the Lagos account is true(of which it isn't)Esp with the fact that u claimed according to Lagos Ibadan reports, the Benin military commander (Asheru) was killed by the Awori

1)If Lagos was peacefully infiltrated, What were the circumstances that made it a vassal of the Benin Empire

2) If Lagos was peacefully infiltrated,What gave Benin the undisputed right to choose who becomes the next oba

3)If Lagos was peacefully infiltrated, what were the circumstances that made Lagos to be paying annual tributes for over 200yrs...

4) if Lagos was peacefully infiltrated, why were ur previous oba being buried in Benin...land nor dey lagos
Thanks ..I expect ur straightforward reply

if u like Post 12 page reply...if it doesn't fit my answer...u go explain am again

The last picture is from Robert Smith the book The Lagos consulate .... I'm pretty u know better than Robert... Social media champion

davidnazee, gregyboy , edeyoung... this one wey Tao never answer for up to 2hrs despite the fact that her last seen is 1.20pm, Una know wetin be the problem... Shey Na so she dey do

TAO11:


(C) I have mentioned this repeatedly the Iddo settlement of the Binis did not begin as a military camp but simply a settlement for the Bini immigrant group who had come to Lagos (just like other groups) fro trade purposes. It only became a military camp for the Binis when the violent trade conflict broke out many years after different non-Awori trade immigrants had already settled peacefully in different parts of Lagos.

Refer to several of my replies to you on this (which you've failed to address) for further clarification on this.

(D) Ulsheimer's writings corroborated some of the points in Egharevba's account, but where does it corroborate his point about royal conquest by the Binis in order to settle Lagos.

Refer to several of my replies to you on this (which you've failed to address) for further details.

Moreover, Professor Akintoye's interpretation (which upholds the Lagos account) is accurate because of its greater explanatory scope and explanatory power.

The Benin account of settling in by royal conquest -- on the other hand -- breaks down at the point of explaining certain historical (and linguistic) realities of the time such as the following:

(i) The Yoruba name of the first King of Lagos (which the Benin account claims is "the son or grandson of the Oba of Benin" ).

(ii) The conspicuous absence of the use of Edo language in the Lagos palace at any point in its history (which would have been the case if the Binis did indeed come to settle in Lagos through some royal conquest from which an Edo ruling class emerged).

(iii) The absence of any historical impetus to have spurred the Binis to consider settling in Lagos by the use of violence (since the Lagos coastal trade is the historically known impetus for first contacts between others and Lagos, and Lagos encouraged such immigrant trade contacts with others).

(iv) Ulsheimer's 1603 account which states, according to R. Smith (1988:74), that "Lagos was the resort of traders coming 'by water and land'" appears to corroborate the Lagos account of peaceful settling in different trading groups, as opposed to the Benin account of settling in by violent royal conquest.

(v) Ulsheimer's 1603 account of a conflict between the Binis and the Aworis matches the Lagos account of a post-settling violent trade conflict between the Binis et al. and their host (the Aworis).

In contrast, the Benin account of a violent royal conquest of settling-in fails to line up chronologically with Ulsheimer's 1603 account of violent conflicts in Lagos (which interestingly does not relate any such Benin tradition of settling-in royal conquest) since the Binis must have long settled there (in the 1500s) before Ulsheimer [/b](1603)[/b] considering the much earlier beginnings of European trade along the Lagos coast.

(E) Chief Egharevba (who did not have access to Ulsheimer's account) was simply documenting Benin traditional account of the Lagos event from his Bini informants. Moreover, University of Ibadan and University of Michigan only published and digitized the work respectively. Lol.

Professor Akintoye, on the other hand, is preview not only to the Benin account alone, but also to the Lagos account as well as eye witness European reports, all from which he has drawn the most consistent interpretation with the greatest explanatory scope and explanatory power which turns out to be in reasonable agreement with the Lagos account.

Professor Akintoye is not a professor of medical sciences (in case you're wondering. Lol), he is a retired distinguished professor of Yoruba and African History, and his work which I cited deploys four decades of historiography research with current interpretation and analysis.

This work like I have mentioned in a preceding comment enjoyed the review inputs from a galaxy of other seasoned academics in the same field such as Professor Elisee Soumonni (of the University of Benin at Abomey-Calavi), and Professor R.C.C. Law (of Stirling University, Scotland) among other eminent scholars of Yoruba and African History.

lawani:
There could not have been edo language in Lagos when the Benin that came there were speaking Yoruba not edo. The Benin aristocracy used Yoruba as lingua franca.

TAO11:


I know about the bolded. But they were bilingual.

In other words, able to speak the Yoruba language (which is the general lingua-franca along much of the coast), and their own indigenous Edo language.

So, the reason why there isn't an atom of trace of Edo language in the early palace is simply because the dynasty is of paternal Awori origin, and not by some fictitious Edo conquest and imposition.

sesan85:
You mean Oba Rilwan Aremu Osuolale Akiolu identifies as Benin? Then how come he has no Benin name? Lol. So, can you show me any link where Akiolu identifies as Benin? I'll wait.

sesan85:
What "historical evidence" supports that fact that all the Obas of Lagos from Ologun Kutere are descendants of Alaagba, the Ijesha Babalawo of Oba Akinshemoyin? It's a fact that Alaagba, the Ijesha man, was the father of Oba Ologun Kutere. What "historical evidence" are you looking for?

davidnazee:


You are obviously troubled by Benin treatment of Lagos.. only a troubled person can distort history so much the way you do..
For the umpteenth time, Ulsheimer served in Great Benin powerful miltary and fought in the campaign against Lagos (Aworis, your tribe).. You can see it in the attachment below and if you like intepret it to mean he was a cassava farmer in Lagos, na your way be that.. or you can even start to insult him for his role in annhilating the Aworis (your tribe)

TAO11:


Is this the best you can do to salvage your damage that some 10,000 men fighting for Benin Kingdom (including Ulsheimer) carrying guns made advances fighting to conquer Lagos and settle in??

I haven't seen you provide evidence for this foregoing nonsensical claim.

What you did was simply to show that there was some fighting going on in Lagos which I repeatedly been as fact as admitted by the Lagos account.

What I have, however, rejected outrightly as being without any basis is the interpretation that this conflict in Lagos was an attempt by the Benins to conquer Lagos and settle in there.

This is utterly absurd because the Binis had long settled in Lagos (for trade purposes) even before Ulsheimer (1603). As such, the conflict in Lagos around 1603 is as the Lagos account indicate -- trade conflicts between the Aworis and the Benin group et al.

Ulsheimer was no part of any men invading Lagos to conquer it.

No gun was involved as guns weren't introduced to the Benin army until the late 1600.

The event wasn't in the 1500 as you had claimed.

10,000 men is obviously an exaggeration.

Get help!

sesan85:
What "historical evidence" supports that fact that all the Obas of Lagos from Ologun Kutere are descendants of Alaagba, the Ijesha Babalawo of Oba Akinshemoyin? It's a fact that Alaagba, the Ijesha man, was the father of Oba Ologun Kutere. What "historical evidence" are you looking for?

gregyboy:
[s]But benis used Portuguese service men at 1500 who used guns to fight bini wars[/s]