Maximus69:

Jesus is angel Michael in the spirit realms, he is the perfect replacement for Adam.
There's nothing like TRINITY, God is one and only the grand Creator who has all the say.
Michael (Jesus) only participated in during the works of creation, this might sound preposterous but think of this: God created Adam and there were no like skyscrapers, bridges, electricity, cars, trains, aeroplane, internet and so on. Who created all of these? Well it's Adam's descendants who keeps on working to improve on the things they found on earth!
I remember my cousin's son who argued profusely when i told him that electricity is not natural but generated, of course the little boy felt it has always been there because Adam's imperfect descendants worked really hard to maintain and sustain electricity!
So when God's word tell us that Michael (Jesus) worked with God in the beginning to set all things both in heaven and on earth in place we need not doubt it! Genesis 1:26; Proverbs 8:22-34; John 1:1; Colossians 1:15-16
God's word referred to Michael (Jesus) as a god not because he is part of God in anyway but because he took part during creation, just as the man Moses played a vitat role in the deliverance of Israelites from Egypt, no wonder God said about Moses "I have made you like a God before Pharaoh" {Exodus 7:1} Moses supposed to be scared while standing before Pharaoh who happens to be the most powerful King of that time but NO Moses stood before Pharaoh like a GOD having authority over all the gods of Egypt including Pharaoh their King who was also viewed as a god on his own!
So Jesus (Michael) served as God just like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15-19} but he is no part of JEHOVAH the one and only TRUE God! Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 42:8

You said God is spirit, which I agree... So why do you think the Bible stories are literal?.. Have you spoken to a spirit before?..

We have having this conversation because we are both human beings.. We can understand the language we are speaking.. Do you think you can have this king of communication with God?.. If not why do you think Bible stories are literal stories..

I think that is where you lost it..

God is not a man or a human being. Number 23:19.

sonmvayina:


You said God is spirit, which I agree... So why do you think the Bible stories are literal?.. Have you spoken to a spirit before?..

Hmmmmmmmm, spirits are higher intelligent beings, we can't see them unless they want us to and they do that by putting on materialised visible bodies.
These spirits dealt with physical beings so the stories are literal Sir!
We need to study the Bible thoroughly to know why spirit beings don't talk back when we are talking, but they're listening!
God is the one and only spirit to whom all glory and honour belongs, so he speaks to people but on purpose, as for angels they are not permitted to speak with people unless God grant them that permission, that's why people who speak with spirits must have had a covenant with them before the spirits can speak with mortal men.
But note that spirits who makes covenant with humans are doing so on their own, so they will be punished for jumping the protocols!

Maximus69:


Hmmmmmmmm, spirits are higher intelligent beings, we can't see them unless they want us to and they do that by putting on materialised visible bodies.
These spirits dealt with physical beings so the stories are literal Sir!
We need to study the Bible thoroughly to know why spirit beings don't talk back when we are talking, but they're listening!
God is the one and only spirit to whom all glory and honour belongs, so he speaks to people but on purpose, as for angels they are not permitted to speak with people unless God grant them that permission, that's why people who speak with spirits must have had a covenant with them before the spirits can speak with mortal men.
But note that spirits who makes covenant with humans are doing so on their own, so they will be punished for jumping the protocols!

How come you are not going to God directly rather than reading the Bible... Don't you think it will be much better and we won't be having this conversation.. We would ask God directly..


Well, trust me.. God is a spirit.. And nobody can communicate with God the way we communicate with humans. The only way to communicate with God is through an oracle... Any other way is a waste of time..

God is the universal spirit, personified. We are in it and he is in us... What you call angels are just aspect of God. The Bible refers to them as the sons of God.. The yoruba refers to them as the Orishas.. Some people go through them to God, but God forbids it.. "do not have any other God before me"..

sonmvayina:


How come you are not going to God directly rather than reading the Bible... Don't you think it will be much better and we won't be having this conversation.. We would ask God directly..


Well, trust me.. God is a spirit.. And nobody can communicate with God the way we communicate with humans. The only way to communicate with God is through an oracle... Any other way is a waste of time..

God is the universal spirit, personified. We are in it and he is in us... What you call angels are just aspect of God. The Bible refers to them as the sons of God.. The yoruba refers to them as the Orishas.. Some people go through them to God, but God forbids it.. "do not have any other God before me"..

Whatever concept you are taught anywhere, let it be in your heart that the one who bears that title "GOD" has a purpose and that is to teach us how we can benefit ourselves! Isaiah 48:17-18

Note how Isaiah linked PEACE with BENEFITS derived from what we LEARN from GOD!

So there must be a GROUP that's TEACHING it's MEMBERS how to derive BENEFITS in their gathering. If you can't find such an arrangement then there is no use chatting over what your fellowman believes neither coming together for any reason whatsoever!

Maximus69:


Whatever concept you are taught anywhere, let it be in your heart that the one who bears that title "GOD" has a purpose and that is to teach us how we can benefit ourselves! Isaiah 48:17-18

Note how Isaiah linked PEACE with BENEFITS derived from what we LEARN from GOD!
[b]
So there must be a GROUP that's TEACHING it's MEMBERS how to derive BENEFITS in their [/b]gathering. If you can't find such an arrangement then there is no use chatting over what your fellowman believes neither coming together for any reason whatsoever!

It is not about teaching. It Is about obeying God's laws to have a better and more fruitful human experience... Death simply means the spirt returning to God and the body back to earth.... Back to default settings. Ecclesiastics12:7

Just to make the time from birth to death, obey his laws and enjoy it..

That is why I keep saying Jesus is useless to both God and man.. A distraction..

sonmvayina:


It is not about teaching. It Is about obeying God's laws to have a better and more fruitful human experience... Death simply means the spirt returning to God and the body back to earth.... Back to default settings. Ecclesiastics12:7

Just to make the time from birth to death, obey his laws and enjoy it..

That is why I keep saying Jesus is useless to both God and man.. A distraction..

Your PERSONAL opinion!

Over 9,000,000 individuals (members of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES) from different races under the heavens are enjoying warm embrace from fellow believers in JESUS, they've formed a global family of peace loving worshipers and it's Jesus' teachings that made this possible!

Maximus69:


Your PERSONAL opinion!

Over 9,000,000 individuals (members of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES) from different races under the heavens are enjoying warm embrace from fellow believers in JESUS, they've formed a global family of peace loving worshipers and it's Jesus' teachings that made this possible!

They are wasting their time, nobody ask them to..

It is God who created us like this with the ability and capacity to make choices.. He won't kill you for behaving like a human being.. Most if what we call sin are abuse of our natural inclination as human being.. God endowed us with the urge to want sex, that why he gave us leviticus 18 to guide our sexual desires... Etc

Hey Sonmvayina, I really love this thread you created and the prospective purpose for it... Yea, I will like to engage you while rigidly staying put on the rail of the thread. Yeah, I buy your idea of coming from the old testament perspective but I should note you that I will (where necessary) cite scriptures in the new testament to show you that my points are consistent with the scriptures and the word of God.

sonmvayina:


They are wasting their time, nobody ask them to..

So who sent you to come chatting with people always on Nairaland?
Well it has to do with your inner sense, and if it's unable to unify thoughts then there is nothing like God involved. The is a supreme being and his ability to bring people together as a family is the only evidence of his godship.
We believe in him that's why we're working together as one, you and i can go our separate ways without having to agree on anything but if we can agree then someone, somewhere is binding us together (GOD).

Maximus69:

So who sent you to come chatting with people always on Nairaland?
Well it has to do with your inner sense, and if it's unable to unify thoughts then there is nothing like God involved. The is a supreme being and his ability to bring people together as a family is the only evidence of his godship.
We believe in him that's why we're working together as one, you and i can go our separate ways without having to agree on anything but if we can agree then someone, somewhere is binding us together (GOD).

We are part of the human race... We are all brothers and sisters..God only ask us to obey his commandments so that we can live happily together....

Blabbermouth:
Hey Sonmvayina, I really love this thread you created and the prospective purpose for it... Yea, I will like to engage you while rigidly staying put on the rail of the thread. Yeah, I buy your idea of coming from the old testament perspective but I should note you that I will (where necessary) cite scriptures in the new testament to show you that my points are consistent with the scriptures and the word of God.

That would be circular reasoning.. You can't quote from the new testament to prove the new testament. The purpose of this thread is to find out if Jesus was ever God's plan and the New testament was necessary..

sonmvayina:


That would be circular reasoning.. You can't quote from the new testament to prove the new testament. The purpose of this thread is to find out if Jesus was ever God's plan and the New testament was necessary..

I am not quoting the new testament to prove the new testament, no! We are strictly building our discussion on the old testament... However it will be paramount to cross check if what we both come to terms with (as regarding the old testament) is consistent with the new.

sonmvayina:
Like I said, the Jewish prophets wrote about the Messiah, that God was sending to redeem them. When the jews speak of salvation it is always from physical danger..
As per the problem of sin, God already provided a solution in 2nd chronicle 7:14.
Concerning the Messiah, this is what is believed.
J-s Was Not Messiah, He Did Not Fulfill Any Prophecies
* The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon, not Jeconiah, through his human biological father. Genesis 49:10, 2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6; Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Jeremiah 22:30, 36:30, Psalm 89:35-37. Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son Numbers 1:1-18.

J-s didn't have this genealogy, he didn't have a birth father from the Tribe of Judah, in the line from King David and Solomon, not Jeconiah. He had a virgin birth according to Matthew and Luke. And even if he didn't have virgin birth neither genealogy in Matthew 1 or Luke 3 can produce a King to be the Messiah. In Luke 3 the genealogy doesn't go through Solomon as required and in Matthew 1 the genealogy is rejected because it goes though Jeconiah.
II Samuel 7:12-14, I Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6, Jeremiah 22:30,36:30.

* When Messiah is reigning as King the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24. This didn't happen, the Jews were dispersed widely after the death of J-s.

* When Messiah comes the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and sin sacrifices will be fully instituted Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26-27, 45:17-46:16; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21. The Temple was destroyed after the death of J-s.
3
* When Messiah comes there will be Worldwide Reign of Peace and complete end to war Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18. There are still wars upon wars.

* When Messiah is reigning as King all of the Jewish people will observe Torah Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27. Everyone is not obeying Torah the world is filled with rebellion to the Most High.

* When Messiah comes all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true Elohim Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9.

* J-s didn't fulfill any prophecies about Messiah. He didn't have a human biological father in the royal kingly line, the Jews have not ingathered from their exile, the third Temple has not been rebuilt, there is not world wide peace, there is still war, all the Jewish people are not observing Torah and not all people are serving the Most High.

The above points I believe, are your criteria (as written in the Torah) which the Messiah that has been spoken of must meet up with, I will do with these...
Also, I will add more to it, as written to the old testament and see if the person of Jesus and His New testament is valid even under closer look and scrunity.

sonmvayina:


We are part of the human race... We are all brothers and sisters..God only ask us to obey his commandments so that we can live happily together....

Please let me know those that you've been able to convince to agree with you on this, their group name, the commandments they are obeying and how their so called obedience has BENEFITTED them even if it's just within them at least they're the adherents!

Maximus69:


Please let me know those that you've been able to convince to agree with you on this, their group name, the commandments they are obeying and how their so called obedience has BENEFITTED them even if it's just within them at least they're the adherents!

The aim is peace.. Both within and without.. No more no less..

Blabbermouth:

I am not quoting the new testament to prove the new testament, no! We are strictly building our discussion on the old testament... However it will be paramount to cross check if what we both come to terms with (as regarding the old testament) is consistent with the new.

Fair enough..

Blabbermouth:

The above points I believe, are your criteria (as written in the Torah) which the Messiah that has been spoken of must meet up with, I will do with these...
Also, I will add more to it, as written to the old testament and see if the person of Jesus and His New testament is valid even under closer look and scrunity.

I am not a jew, it is their criteria... And Jesus did not fulfill any of them..

sonmvayina:


The aim is peace.. Both within and without.. No more no less..

Well do you have such peace now?

Quran 10:94

But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

I want us to agree on what man is and what God is.. "let us make man in our own image after our likeness, let them have dominion over....... The US in this passage has been a point of controversy for every one. But from my own observations it is the Christians that has interpreted it differently. That is the genesis of the errors in Christianity..

Let us (God the father +God the mother) create man.... Man is made of spirit +body.. God the father provided the spirit and God the mother provided the body.. The body is made of dust and the dust was gotten from the earth.. So it is so easy to infer that God was talking to the earth..

If we read further down the book of genesis it says.. "and the lord God fashioned man from the dust of the earth and blew into his nostrils and man became a living soul"..

Where do Christians see it differently, still overwhelms me..

The psalmist says in psam 104:29-31, send fort your spirit and they are created and replenish the earth, take it and they die and return back to dust. This physical body was created as an abode for God's spirit..it is a pity that man lost the chance for the spirit to remain indefinitely in him..cause of man's wickedness, hence God proclaimed"my spirit shall not dwell with man forever. "

God decreed death for man..
So from birth when the spirit is given and death when the spirit is taken, what do we do?
My answer: enjoy it.

Maximus69:


Well do you have such peace now?

Yes oh.. I don't disrespect my parents I don't have sex with another man's wife, I don't steal, I don't bear false witness, I don't desire what is not mine.. I don't kill, I take Saturday off I don't go anywhere, I stay home with my wife and daughter watching Telemundo or any good programme....

So.. It is going smoothly..

So if man is made of God's spirit + dust from the earth, what is Jesus coming to save!? He has not changed the nature of man, we still get to make choices.. We still need the laws to guide us.. If we make wrong choices and sin, God says.. If my people(we are all God's people) who are called by my name will humble themselves and confess their sins and forsake their evil ways, I will hear from heaven, forgive their sins and heal their land" 2nd chronicle7:14.
So there was no where God asked or demanded for a human sacrifice.. Why should he when one of his commandment was "thou shall not kill".

sonmvayina:


Yes oh.. I don't disrespect my parents I don't have sex with another man's wife, I don't steal, I don't bear false witness, I don't desire what is not mine.. I don't kill, I take Saturday off I don't go anywhere, I stay home with my wife and daughter watching Telemundo or any good programme....

So.. It is going smoothly..

Count your blessings and give thanks!

Well i'm at peace with over 9,000,000 people globally so that anywhere i go throughout this planet, i've gotten the PEACE of mind that my family Jehovah's Witnesses will welcome me even better than how i'm treated here in Nigeria, this is the result of what we learnt from Jesus of Nazareth!

Moses the mediator of the old testament, for prophecy and through hearsay from God himself said to the children of Israel, " I (God) will raise up unto you a prophet from among you, of your brothers, like unto me, I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto you all that I command him and it is him you will listen to.
It shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." - Deut 18:15, 18
This was the first instance in the old testament where the Christ/Messiah was plainly prophesied of....
The first and one of the principal criteria was for the Ha Maschiach to be "A Prophet"!
Down the Scriptures (of Deut 18), it says
"21. If you say in your heart, how shall we know the word which the LORD have not spoken?
22. When a prophet speaks in my name, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously: you shall not be afraid of him."
That verse gave us a reliable yardstick for checking if a prophet really is of/from God or not.

Summary: The Chosen one/Messiah must be a Prophet.
On the Keys...

PEACE achieved!

sonmvayina:
So if man is made of God's spirit + dust from the earth, what is Jesus coming to save!? He has not changed the nature of man, we still get to make choices.. We still need the laws to guide us.. If we make wrong choices and sin, God says.. If my people(we are all God's people) who are called by my name will humble themselves and confess their sins and forsake their evil ways, I will hear from heaven, forgive their sins and heal their land" 2nd chronicle7:14.
So there was no where God asked or demanded for a human sacrifice.. Why should he when one of his commandment was "thou shall not kill".

Well there are THEORIES in all concepts, then the PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS which gives birth to BENEFITS!
I can see that you're satisfied with the BENEFITS you derive from what you know, just as i'm also satisfied with the BENEFITS i derive from being one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
That makes it easier for us to have the peace we truthfully want!

Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel"
From these scripture, it is also meet that the Chosen one MUST be born of a Virgin.

Also, from other Scriptures that have been cited already from some contributors in this post,
"The Messiah must come from the Line of King David"...
Now, here is the first question;
If the scripture is true and cannot be broken, how can a man be born of a Virgin and also at the same time come from the bloodline of King David through his Father (as sonmvayina said, Genealogy is from fatherhood)?"

HISTORY/FACTS:

The origin of the idea of christianNT's 'personal messiah' was heightened when the Maccabean family lost political reign, a dynasty more favored by the nation, in comparison with Herodians.

'National Messiah' is the actual principle of the hebrews(as underlined in blue), NOT 'personal messiah'.

Messiah is a very exclusive Jewish affair only, regional, and localized, not international.

From Jewish encyclopedia

The origin of the idea of christianNT's 'personal messiah' was heightened when the Maccabean family lost political reign, a dynasty more favored by the nation, in comparison with Herodians.

'National Messiah' is the actual principle of the hebrews(as underlined in blue), NOT 'personal messiah'.

Messiah is a very exclusive Jewish affair only, regional, and localized, not international.

From Jewish encyclopedia

Blabbermouth:
Moses the mediator of the old testament, for prophecy and through hearsay from God himself said to the children of Israel, " I (God) will raise up unto you a prophet from among you, of your brothers, like unto me, I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto you all that I command him and it is him you will listen[b] to.
It shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." - Deut 18:15, 18
This was the first instance in the old testament where the Christ/Messiah was plainly prophesies of....
The first and one of the principal criteria was for the Ha Maschiach to be "A Prophet"!
Down the Scriptures (of Deut 18), it says
"21. If you say in your heart, how shall we know the word which the LORD have not spoken?
22. When a prophet speaks in my name, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously: you shall not be afraid of him."
That verse gave us a reliable yardstick for checking if a prophet really is of/from God or not.

Summary: The Chosen one/Messiah must be a Prophet.
On the Keys...

Come on, you are smarter than that.. Who was Moses addressing.. Was it not people in front of him.. After he left, God raised Joshua for them..

Context is key..

Blabbermouth:
Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel"
From these scripture, it is also meet that the Chosen one MUST be born of a Virgin.

Also, from other Scriptures that have been cited already from some contributors in this post,
"The Messiah must come from the Line of King David"...
Now, here is the first question;
If the scripture is true and cannot be broken, how can a man be born of a Virgin and also at the same time come from the bloodline of King David through his Father (as sonmvayina said, Genealogy is from fatherhood)?"

LOL.. You are smarter than that, start from verse 1 of chapter 7..the sign was for king Ahaz, the woman in question was Isaiah wife.. Isaiah impregnated her.. The son was an assurance for king Ahaz that the two kings plotting to kill him will not succeed because God was with him..