what has Give, prescribe, administer got to do with this whole thing? what's the difference between give and administer? or is the problem now English? Nurses already know that the don't work in isolation. so what's the headche?

DebateNigeria:

Nothing has changed my dear. From what I pointed out above, nurses are meant to take instructions from doctors and their superiors (just like every other profession), they appreciate the fact that they work under doctors and must carry out their instructions.
Again from the revised edition you posted above, they were careful not to make the mistake of using the word "prescribe", instead they used the word "give" as against the "administer" used in previous editions.

Which version are you talking about? Nursing has evolved and is still evolving, so deal with it. When you talk, talk of the latest version.

Below is the original version of the hippocratic oath

I swear by Apollo the physician, by Aesculapius, Hygeia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and judgment the following oath:

To consider dear to me as my parents him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and if necessary to share my goods with him; to look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art if they so desire without fee or written promise; to impart to my sons and the sons of the master who taught me and to the disciples who have enrolled themselves and have agreed to the rules of the profession, but to these alone, the precepts and the instruction. I will prescribe regimen for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone. To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug, nor give advice which may cause his death. Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion. But I will preserve the purity of my life and my art. I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by specialists in this art. In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction, and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves. All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or outside of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and never reveal. If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.
http://www.aapsonline.org/ethics/oaths.htm

I wonder why they Drs have changed the gods and goddesses to God

DebateNigeria:


Please take a closer look at this part

And this part

I swear by Apollo the physician, by Aesculapius, Hygeia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and judgment the following oath:

To consider dear to me as my parents him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and if necessary to share my goods with him; to look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art if they so desire without fee or written promise; to impart to my sons and the sons of the master who taught me and to the disciples who have enrolled themselves and have agreed to the rules of the profession, but to these alone, the precepts and the instruction. I will prescribe regimen for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone. To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug, nor give advice which may cause his death. Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion. But I will preserve the purity of my life and my art. I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by specialists in this art. In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction, and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves. All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or outside of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and never reveal. If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.
http://www.aapsonline.org/ethics/oaths.htm

I wonder why they Drs have changed the gods and goddesses to God

Original "Florence Nightingale Pledge"
I solemnly pledge myself before God and in the presence of this assembly to pass my life in purity and to practise my profession faithfully.
I shall abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous, and shall not take or knowingly administer any harmful drug.
I shall do all in my power to maintain and elevate the standard of my profession and will hold in confidence all personal matters committed to my keeping and all family affairs coming to my knowledge in the practice of my calling.
I shall be loyal to my work and devoted towards the welfare of those committed to my care.[1][4][5]

1935 revised version (changes from original italicized)
I solemnly pledge myself before God and in the presence of this assembly to pass my life in purity and to practise my profession faithfully.
I will abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous, and will not take or knowingly administer any harmful drug.
I will do all in my power to maintain and elevate the standard of my profession and will hold in confidence all personal matters committed to my keeping and all family affairs coming to my knowledge in the practice of my calling.
With loyalty will I aid the physician in his work, and as a missioner of health, I will dedicate myself to devoted service for human welfare.[1]

"Practical Nurse Pledge", a modern version based on the "Nightingale Pledge"
Before God and those assembled here, I solemnly pledge;
To adhere to the code of ethics of the nursing profession;
To co-operate faithfully with the other members of the nursing team and to carryout [sic] faithfully and to the best of my ability the instructions of the physician or the nurse who may be assigned to supervise my work;
I will not do anything evil or malicious and I will not knowingly give any harmful drug or assist in malpractice.
I will not reveal any confidential information that may come to my knowledge in the course of my work.
And I pledge myself to do all in my power to raise the standards and prestige of the practical nursing;
May my life be devoted to service and to the high ideals of the nursing profession.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightingale_Pledge

The pnly constant thing is change. And change will still continue. Surgeons used to be butchers, now they are surgeons. Nursing has evolved and will continue to evolve. So Nigerian Drs should deal with that.

"Practical Nurse Pledge", a modern version based on the "Nightingale Pledge"
Before God and those assembled here, I solemnly pledge;
To adhere to the code of ethics of the nursing profession;
To co-operate faithfully with the other members of the nursing team and to carryout [sic] faithfully and to the best of my ability the instructions of the physician or the nurse who may be assigned to supervise my work;
I will not do anything evil or malicious and I will not knowingly give any harmful drug or assist in malpractice.
I will not reveal any confidential information that may come to my knowledge in the course of my work.
And I pledge myself to do all in my power to raise the standards and prestige of the practical nursing;
May my life be devoted to service and to the high ideals of the nursing profession.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightingale_Pledge

Anyway, i am done responding to you. you keep going round and round. what if a patient comes to see the doctor and the lab guy is not around? won't the patient go home and come back another day? what if a patient needs admission and the nurse is not around? will he still be admitted?. No need of arguing with you cos you no get flows. I actually thought you had something to offer. It's a shameYou keep avoiding the main issues. bye bye

einsteino:


honestly i have been up all night and sleep don dey catch me. so forgive me if i no answer all your questions. the way i see it, y'all are like a lady raised by a feminist. everything you would be taught is anti-male. forgive me, am not a chauvinist sha


when a patient comes to the hospital, he comes to see a doctor(if the doctor is not there, he would go home ). the doctor diagnoses what's wrong with the aid of test results and his medical knowledge, then prescribes what the pharmacist would give him. it is the needs of the doctor that brings everyone else in. it is more a less like a singer and fan rship, fans are all over singers forgetting it takes a producer, mixer and a whole lot of other people to get those great songs. now the producers cant ask to be shown in every music video so they would be noticed, rather what is needed is for the singers to always acknowledge, pay and respect them.

even in civil engr, the needs of the engr brings a whole lot of professionals like quantity surveyors, they have to work with us cos our jobs brings them jobs. but unfortunately they cant head the team, but they are well paid and respected by us. just the same way i make friends with architects cos once they get a big job, it means i too have a job ... if dem like make dem form boss, as long as dem gree pay wetin i charge and dem no dare insult me.

Pharmacy is such a gold mine, in most countries they are by far richer than docs. but not when all they do is dispense drugs, the biggest field in pharmacy is producing drugs. unfortunately in Nigeria, that sector hasn't been tapped. just the same way some civil engrs are now relegating themselves to acts like competing with architects in drawing building plans simply cos they can't get their hands on pure civil engr jobs.

one funny thing about the truth is that it doesnt give an F abt our opinions, no matter what we say here today.. the truth would be the truth.

i need to sleep, so i dont fall sick and get admitted in a hospital where doctors and nurses are fighting over who is boss.

if medicine is 6credits, what is the other course aside the 5core science courses? CRK? Agric? Govt? yoruba? My dear, no need of giving me your life history. II am not arguing that with you. I only said that because you are acting like you know more than those in the field. Unless your school is different from other schools in Naija, the standard requirement is 5credits. let the Drs prove me wrong on this and not you.

But, do you deliberately evade my questions? I asked you about your position on the directorship, and you once again evaded the question. I want to hear the opinion of someone who is not in the medical field regarding the issue. Did you also see the hospital organogram that I shared? I was taught the organogram of my profession, and the one I shared

einsteino:

oh yes am not a doctor and u can go through my posts here on nl, should incase u have any doubt.you would see where i have offered information on the best kind of foundations for buildings, if you still chose not to believe, check my linkedin profile http://ng.linkedin.com/pub/einstein-ojogan/90/272/714/

now i want to believe you have held a jamb brochure before. if you have, then you must have noticed every school has the power to dictate its minimum requirements for a course. in mine, medicine was 6credits.. inshort not only medicine, some other courses were too.

like i said, i attended a uni, i made friends across all works of lives, i am the kind of person who is not confined to a particular area. you may be surprised that am a civil engineer, yet my signature reads i fix hardbricked phones, thats a proof that my hobby is clearly different from my career. also my very close aunt whom i lived with at a time was a nurse, i have cousins who are too(inshort i teased them when i saw JOHESU's demands..pardon me but some showed nuffin more but hatred for docs lol).
i also have cousins who are doctors and in my family, we aint the kind that discuss people, so we are oftenly left with no choice other than to discuss different sectors of life. thats how i managed to know the little i do, i can understand if it seems alot to you... the same way my knowledge of computers and electronics seems alot to those who actually did study those courses.lol. however i would never drag your field with you, all i ask is do not be biased when you argue. you all are important, you do not need to downplay anybody for you to appear more significant.

i was shocked when a doctor here was proud to say that when nurses striked, they organised people to do their jobs(trying to show that they are not important). if an airforce man gets killed by touts, am sure any army man around would join hands to see they fish the touts out.



i am done with this thread.

hospital organogram

what is your position on directorship in the hospital? Is that also part of the organogram? what i was taught about organogram in school is that the patient is at the center and surrounded by healthcare professionals. I think only the medical students were taught the organogram, hence the fight. @ the bolded: what do you mean by nurses don't have their own field? what happened to the healthcare field? Nightengale worked with the doctors and not for them. If nursing doesn't have its own field like you said, i wonder why it is regarded as a unique profession, it would have been under the medical profession. The problem with the nursing profession was the greater number of women in it at the time women were not taken seriously, when they were seen and not heard and are considered to be under a man. But this is 21st century where women have been liberated, study their 24 commandments in depth.

what of pharmacy, medlab, physiotherapy, radiography, don't they have their own field? or is everybody working at the doctor's field?

@ the seconded bolded, if it is the right of the doctors to run hospitals in UK, US, Canada, Australia, and there healthcare is very effective, then let it be so in Nigeria. But if not,......I still wonder how the health indices of the giant of Africa is rated 187th out of 190 nations under the natural leadership of Drs

einsteino:

I agree that doctors could be such a proud fool, inshort my aunt who was a nurse once came back home vexed that a young resident doctor insulted her. at the time she was due to retire in a year's time, imagine that. well it was easy dealing with the manner-less resident cos her daughter was a consultant doctor in the same hospital...lol

well to answer the bolded, i think i finally understand where the problem lies. it appears you guys are not thought the organogram of your industry in school. you know the first time my friend who was a student of architecture told me they are our team leaders in building projects, i was like wtf! how can that be? architecture was a branch of civil engr, we even are taught architectural design... blah blah. then finally in one of our courses we were thought the organogram of our industry, down to our history and found out why it had to be so.

now if am in an offshore facility, am nothing more than a service engr, someone who builds and maintains whatever the pet engrs and d rest needs. i cant lead their team but i am part of that team, although i would be allowed to head my dept, inshort a pet engr cant head my dept.. although u never would find him looking down on me, i dunno y sha.. engrs always seem to bond very well, u will hardly find an engr fighting over who is more important. as a matter of fact most of my friends who are mech engrs, pose as civil engrs and i even happily help em when they consult me(osho free consultation in most cases o! just d same way they gave me free soakis in sch..lol).

Now if i happen to be in an oil servicing firm, he would have to succumb to me. it is more or less, this is my field so its best for the team if i lead cos am d most knowledgeable here, then when am in urs its best i listen to u .

the problem with the health care is that other professions like nurses dont seem to have their own field where they lead, it appears u always have to say yes to the doctor. Actually it isn't supposed to be a problem cos the nightingale nurses started out with the sole purpose of assisting the doctors. funny enuf they bonded so well that doctors ended up marrying their nurses.

I recommend a salary review for JOHESU[b] but it is critical that doctors keep running hospitals.[/b] this issue of a fresh resident doc earning more than a nurse with msc and 20yrs experience is crazy.

Yes, they trusted the Drs to always do what's right, but they shot them in the back. Now they know that all man dey on his own. Everyone has to fend for himself

omotfavy: .The problem here is dat oda professionals in d health sector has over slept but now dat dey are awake,everything has to change,no more intimidation.

@ the first bolded: It is the same O'level requirement for all health workers.5 credits in...physics, chemistry, biology, maths and English. It doesn't matter if you had parallel A's or C's. And again, medicine is not 6 credits at one sitting but 5credits. get your facts right. You claim you are not in medical field, yet you claim to know more than those in the field. Pick a JAMB Brochure and check the O'level requirements. Of course people dreamt of studying medicine back then in school, because of the prospects and the economy. But people now go for courses with prospects outside the shores of this country, hence the high rate for admission in nursing, pharmacy etc (nursing used to be a course for lowlifes, but because of the prospect outside nigeria, it has seen a dramatic change in caliber of people going into it). @ the second bolded: Nobody is denying the status of a doctor, but they shouldn't prevent others from rising to the peak of their career just because they want to maintain the status quo. Imagine saying that others should not rise to the post of directors(level 17), that they must retire as assistant directors? when requirement for directorship is just a university degree. Because you feel threatened, you want to suppress the growth of others. The sky is big enough for everybody. Live and let's live.

For more info on who is pulling who down, go through the 24 commandments of NMA with an unbiased mind

einsteino:

some of you make me wonder if you are educated. that they require o'level for all courses, does it mean its the same requirement across board. even in engineering, civil engr and chemical engr has slightly different requirement, the compulsory courses for civil isnt the same for chem. in my school, you dare not combine results like u do for some courses in medicine.. medicine o'level must be 6crdts at one sitting(although most of those fellas tender all A's... crazy geeks)


their cut off was so high that as an engr student i used to console myself that it was cos they dont write maths thats why they could score such. but funny enough the best maths student in my secondary school ended up studying medicine. i can bet that most peeps here also had a greater majority of their best students dreaming of medicine.

Nigerians would never tell the truth, never! what is there to admit that it is not beans to study medicine? my friends then used to look at me as a demi god for being able to put up with maths(their phobia) in engineering, unknown to them my phobia was biology and the unnecessary cramming involved in medicine. when u meet rilli educated people, they would respect u even if you are illiterate. i am not in support of the discrimination, i am just saying dont deny the elevated status of medicine, instead seek respect and remuneration.

I wasn't referring to nurses as the defenders. I quite agree that some courses have more prospect than others. Does the offshore engr tell you that they are naturally the leader of the team?, that you are a support staff in the oil industry? that he owns the rig? or that you are less of an engr because he earns more? Your mentality is different from the average mentality of Nigerian Drs. You are talking from the piont of view of an engr which is different from what is happening in the health sector. so would you seriously liken the health sector with an aircraft or the judiciary? as opposed to the engineering field?

Besides, I was referring to the university I graduated from and what happens during MBBS. I don't know about your school. But it is the same group that will tell you that you failed jamb

einsteino:

@Bolded is that how you guys do it in your alma mater? well in mine it was a totally different ball game. even a student of physics commited suicide while i was in uni. there was a fanaticism for excellence in my school, though i didnt support going to that length. whether it is a psychiatric problem or not, bottom line is medicine was tough enough to cause most of the attempted suicide.

like i said, i studied civil engr not medicine. never was interested in medicine even though my parents tried to pressure me to study medicine. nonetheless i believe we all know that some courses have better prospects, and you were at liberty to choose ur course.

pls and pls i never said defenders(nurses in ur analogy) are less important, i only said strikers have better prospects. they dont mean the same thing. an offshore engr's pay triples mine, are we not both engrs? didnt we study for the same duration? does that make him look down on me? does it make me inferior? the answer to all these is NO! it simply means, his field has a better prospect than mine. i was aware of all these while filling my jamb form and yet still chose civil engr, it would be an insult to my profession to start whining.

like i said in my lengthy post, some careers enjoy elevated positions in a field. what i demand from anyone i work for is respect and the same respect i give to people who work with/under me, even in my place of work, i greet the i.t students "Good morning sir".. they initially were worried about it, and my colleagues frowned at it saying it would make them see us as mates, imagine o! the same i.t students that in a year's time would graduate to be engineers just like me.
This tells u something, nigerians like lording over people, inshort most staffs treat i.t students as errand boys. i chose to make them feel at home with me cos how else can i teach someone who sees me as a boss instead of a leader.

there needs to be a change in the way things are going on amongst health workers(inshort in the whole country), that i do not argue. but do not try to prove ur point by saying it takes nuffin special to be a doctor cos that would just make people see ypu as just a disgruntle fellow.

NMA is still on stage one(DENIAL). they are denying the fact that the wind of change is here and has come to stay. You will soon see how fast they will get to stage 5 (acceptance + shame)

dexterinc2003: Kubbler Ross stages of grief........

1.DENIAL
2.ANGER
3.BARGAINING
4.DEPRESSION
5.ACCEPTANCE


The FG is on stage 3(BARGAINING)...while JOHESU is on stage 4(DEPRESSION)....the unfortunate general populace is on stage 2(ANGER).
The strike will be called off when everyone meets at stage 5(ACCEPTANCE).
Tilll then,keep dropping your comments while avoiding the needful.
Im waiting for the slow olodo still on stage 1(DENIAL)to come and quote me.

My argument is not whether people go to school of nursing or not. I am talking about BNsc nursing. Same way your bias mind is made up. I know that there is nothing i will write to change that, so no need. Cuttoff point is not static my dear

daygeee:

I beg to disagree. I sort admission in OAU to study medicine. Cut off to study medicine was always d highest. Mind you Bsc nursing was only recently introduced so over 80% of Nigerian nurses went to school of nursing.

Not as if telling you this really matters. Your bias mind seems made up.

I attended the same university with medical students. We studied together. We all know whats up among ourselves. Stop deceiving yourself and the public. We know what happens after their MBBS exams, and how most cross over. Don.t forget that I had them as friends in school.We still have people in studying physics, aeronautic engineering, mechanical engineering and they have not committed suicide. You can tell this cock and bull story to the market women. This is how we used to hear about how hard anatomy is before we entered school. No be the same anatomy I do with the medical students in the same class and same exam? mtcheeeeeewww. Days are long gone when we hear this kind of gist. Commit suicide indeed. suicide is a psychiatric problem let me tell you. And people have been committing suicide without going to medical schools.

As for speaking in tongues, in my school, student nurses spoke in tongues more than other students because of their council exams which is a standardized exam in this country.

So because defenders hardly get as much as a striker, does that make him inferior/less important?

einsteino:

once again your comparison lacks any logic. a football team comprises of football players i.e like saying doctors comprises of neurologists, surgeons, gynecologists e.t.c meanwhile there are those who aids the teams output e.g supporters club, the health dept, their trainers

even in a football team, defenders hardly get as much as a striker does. also on the issue of qualification, stop lying through your teeth. we all graduated from unis, we know what it takes to be a doctor and what it takes to be a nurse. do you know how many times in University of nigeria, medical student have attempted suicide? those guys live in fear, they read like their lives depend on it, i remember how a friend of mine whose first year gp was 4.8 (then he was in vet med) got failed out of medicine(when he resat jamb and gained admission to med) . inshort it was so tough that medicine students finally agreed that it took more than brains to succeed, many of them turned to die hard speaking in tongues Christians...lol


nonetheless that doesn't make them Gods. in some countries, nurses get crazy pays and their job is even less tedious than our nigerian nurses. what am just trying to say is, admitting that being a doctor require a higher deal of dedication doesn't make u inferior. I give them their respect, its not easy but they shouldnt look down on anyone else their balconies would be taken

The 'Ball" in football is like the patient. We toss them from one professional to the other until we achieve our desired aim which is positive patient outcome (to score a goal). Do all patient require the services of neurologists, surgeons, gynaecology all at once? NO. But almost all patient require the services of almost all the other professionals in the hospital at once (pharm, nurse, dr, lab etc) comparing patient care to anything else(judiciary, aircraft) is babash. take it or leave it.

einsteino:

once again your comparison lacks any logic. a[b] football team comprises of football players i.e like saying doctors comprises of neurologists, surgeons, gynecologists [/b]e.t.c meanwhile there are those who aids the teams output e.g supporters club, the health dept, their trainers

it used to be like that until the doctors abused the privilege given to them. they now started seeing others as morons. hence the agitation. Others are now saying No, let's run our health system like other countries with better healthcare. Architechs are in charge of bulding,, but they can never tell the engineers that their degrees are inferior to theirs. You can't force a leader on people when the followers say NO we don't want him

einsteino: in the military, a sergeant can never get to the rank of 2nd lieutenant, a rank that a fresh graduate of NDA is commissioned. am a big fan of U.S marines, and i can say the same is obtainable in the U.S. I was amazed when a picture was uploaded of a lieutenant manning a machine gun and some marines mainly non officers commented saying "when the lieutenant is behind the MG, he had better be the last man(cos where d heck are d sergs?)". at the same time, i also ran into an interview of a U.S marine corps Captain saying "when we are advancing, the officers are in the front and when we are retreating, officers are at the back, first in and last out respectively". there is this bond btw the non officers and officers, even on their 238th birthday anniversary the commandant of the USMC had the Sergeant Major standing side by side. recently Corporal william kyle carpenter was awarded the medal of honour upon the recommendations of his bosses(obviously who are officers), mind you this award is the highest award in U.S military. they didnt say "No! he is a non-officer".

Unfortunately the same cannot be said of our military, its no news that non-officers here feel maltreated by the officers. every benefit and award is hijacked by the supposed superior officers here. the problem is not the organogram, it is the nigerian thinking. we always like to lord it over. if each time the doctors fight for salary increment, they carry the others along, this whole bullshit wouldnt have started. we all know the doctors have the highest bargaining power, but as chairs of the health sector, they should not expect the respect of the other guys if they cant defend and fight for them. it is like a total stranger expecting me to accord him the respect due to a father, just cos his blood runs in me. Inshort Doctors ought to be part and parcel of JOHESU!

I think its already enough madness to have ministers in sectors they know nothing about, we can't have JOHESU running hospitals. nonetheless they should enjoy the remuneration due to people in a health sector. all this power tussle makes no sense, in every sector, there are those who are to lead and those who are to follow. am a civil engr, when handling building projects, an architect becomes the head of the team, that he is the head doesn't make me inferior, it is just right that all i do conforms to his plan. when am working on strictly engineering projects like roads, he has no stake whatsoever in them, he cant even be in the team. the same analogy is true for doctors vs pharmacists.

dont fight yourselves, everyone is important but some have elevated positions. what you need is a united JOHESU that includes everyone, fight together for a better healthcare system.

@ the bolded, the same way you compare the health sector to the judiciary and aircraft, with doctors as judges and pilots while others are flight attendants..You still did not tell me the extra requirements for medical school admission.


I don't know why we are even bothering ourselves here over this strike issue, at the end, it is still the FG that will decide what happens

dumodust:

@ the bolded, read it again from the side and ask yourself whether you wrote this. the way nigeria is going, one day people will want to be cbn governor from the streets... besides they have Waec shebi?
healthcare is not like football... one day someone will say the judiciary or university is like football...hmmm
if you have not worked in a hospital... dont bother replying

The same way patients hurriedly left the hospitals in droves when JOHESU went on strike. No one profession can do it alone and govt knows that. I await when the doctors will return to their duty posts in shame

KOBOJO:





And the patients hurriedly left the hospitals in droves because they don't want to die in the hands of (johesu) our so called;
console-tant nurses.,
console-tant pharmacists.,
console-tant lab. technicians
and the other killer-squads u hv under that evil gathering called johesu...

What other requirement do medical schools require aside JAMB and O'level? Are students required to take another set of exams before going into medicine? Every department have their own JAMB cutoff point, but that doesn't mean that one is superior to the other. After all, for some years, OAU Nursing dept had the highest JAMB cut off point for admission. That happened not because nursing was superior to the other courses, but because the demand was so much higher than supply.

Comparing the hospital to aircraft, and the judicial system is fallacious. Healthcare is like a football team. must the captain always be the goalkeeper because all the strikers, midfielders and defenders must come to him? will you say that the midfielder is more important than the striker, or that the goal keeper is the most important? Is the captain of the team no longer to be chosen by virtue of leadership, expertise, managerial experience and character/integrity any longer? Are we saying all the other healthcare professionals are absolutely devoid of these attributes. Everybody is working towards one goal which is patient care.

einsteino:

Sorry am an engineer, not a doc. But ur comparison is faulty. Army, navy, airforce are in d same cadre just as mech engrs, civil engrs. Comparing doctors with nurses is wrong. They do not have the same admission requirements like army, navy, air force, neither do they spend d same no of years. D right comparison would have been a non officer in d army lyk sergeant vs an officer say lieutenant cos though they both work in d same army, their qualification is different and admission requirement is different, and only the officers are allowed admin positions

They discharged the patients because they were admitted under the consultant's name. No patient decided to go on their own unless those that could afford private hospitals. Patients are being managed by other team of professionals are working together at their level of expertise, unlike the doctors who think they do not need anybody to work effectively. Though it will not be easy without the doctors, but they are doing their best

dumodust:

patients on the wards actually decide to go on their own... they know who is who

I am waiting to see how this will end. Telling the FG to disregard court ruling is committing suicide. the strike has now entered the 12th day, and no show. NMA thought that the FG will bow as usual once they threaten govt with strike, but the opposite is now the case. I remember that the last JOHESU strike didn't enter the second week, and FG yielded to their demands. This is because JOHESU followed all due processes, and it was clear to the public. NMA doesn't want to go through the industrial court, they don't want to wait for the outcome of the Yayale report, they want to do everything by fire by force. They are against NLC, TUC, CBN, NIC, and are now attacking reporters who condemn their actions. So tell me how everybody will be wrong while they are right? NMA should not let this strike be their downfall. You think GEJ doesn't know what he is doing? He may appear gentle, but he is not a fool. He threads carefully.

Besides, NMA is using the strike to show us how important they are, forgeting that if NUPENG (petroleum tanker drivers) should decide to strike, the country will be at standstill.

rotadeco27: Why is FG making doctors feel so important by challenging them to come for a public debate. I think their consultant nurses, pharmacists lab scientists and others should be able to uphold the hospitals and run them effectively .however if FG eventually dances to d tone of NMA johesu will want to embark on a reactionary industrial action.then we sha know who is indispensable in the hospital.They shd just leave without locking the patients folders,theater suits wards, power house.I promise dat they wil b forgotten at home. WHO is the mother of all health institutions in world,all it D.G have ever been medical doctors.Nigerians shd not allow FG to use politics to sink our health sector.NMA should fight it to the meaningful end.

The same way Doctors hurriedly discharged all the patients during the strike.

dumodust:
public take note, the bolded is how johesu effect their strikes... they lock up wards and equipment but we still manage to do our work
now, they rusting at work and no one is interfering...or locking up things or chasing patients away... so to the public, your 'healthcare professionals' are currently on duty and the hospitals are open, consult them

You forgot to add
Doctors vs NLC
Doctors vs TUC
Doctors vs NIC
Doctors vs CBN
Doctors vs Reporters/Journalists
NMA vs NARD

By the way, what happened to NMA's vehicle special plate number? Govt never provide am with immediate effect?

saxywale: Nigerian doctors are fighting a war on multiple fronts.

Nigerian doctors vs JOHESU
Nigerian doctors vs FG
Nigerian doctors vs states
Nigerian doctors vs Citizens
Nigerian doctors vs other Nigerian doctors

The lord is your strength oo.

I certainly believe the NMA/ JOHESU fight's inhuman contribution to the unwarranted loss of precious Nigerian lives is a tragedy. That it has as main actors the very people who have sworn to help others live healthy lives is also a sad irony. However, in looking carefully at the unfolding events, it is quite clear that there are only three options and only one of those options is able to bring about the change we need. But, I will outline those options later. Instead of only searching for one-size-fits all solution, we need to become… the very people who bring change. The emphasis of this article however is to highlight the beautiful opportunity this current impasse presents to all healthcare stakeholders; a turnaround. The current situation can only be described as a cul-de-sac- a destination reached. If we do not want to live in this house that we have reached, the only sane option is to turn around, retrace our steps and go back to the cross roads where we missed it.

On social media forums and on-line news sites, the arguments have been loud and jarring; while the patients who are presumably the reasons why we gather are wallowing in their miseries. Questions have been thrown back and forth and allegations slung in every imaginable direction. However, rather than clearing up the air, it appears to be breeding new vendettas among people (particularly in the younger generation who studied and played together while in the College of Medicine) who are ordinarily supposed to work together as a team. A possible explanation for some of the problems has been touted as our “Africanness”.

I beg to differ, at the very least my Yoruba values taught me that the wisdom of the child together with the elderly sages’ own store was vital for building the cradle of civilization Ile-ife. Another worthy aphorism is “the child’s hands cannot reach the mantel neither would the adult’s fit inside a gourd”; both must assist each other depending on the task at hand. It is even odious to refer to the relationship between healthcare professionals as elder and child; but for the fact that worse descriptions of master-slave, boss-servant are currently flying in the air and thus necessitating this reminder that not even the child is to be done away with when progress is the goal.

The conversations are ongoing on social media and it is hoped the Ahmed Yayale committee will be a reference point for resolving the healthcare sector crisis.

However, while we wait, counting all gains from this present mess is very essential and possible if we are able to rise above the petty issues that divide us and realize some fundamental facts:

•The patient is the most important person in the hospital.

We get paid because they come and customers/clients deserve the very best service that is on offer. This is why I do not blame anybody who travels out for medical checks including the current Health Minister who is reported to be abroad as at the time of writing this for his routine checks. Angela Adeboye recently dealt with how we can curb this practice in her brilliant report (Nigeria: The Paradox of Nigerian Healthcare).

•United we stand, divided we fall is the aphorism we all need to stick on our dashboards to remind us of our only alternative.

A joint health sector union - JOHESU is a big plus and is capable of ensuring the government sits up and performs her responsibilities to the Nigerian people. That the NMA is not yet part of it is a big shame.

• There are many different models of team work in healthcare and the best model gives some form of equality to all team members. (Compare and contrast the UK health system versus the US health system and identify obvious differences in team structure with correlating healthcare outcomes- the hospital readmission rates in the US is very high and quality care is very expensive).

An analysis of their health system suggests a focus on advanced specialist healthcare which is the very opposite of some other systems which favour hands- on primary healthcare – GP (General Practitioner) and AHPs (Allied Health Professionals) based. With the regular troubleshooting of the US system though, it is hoped that better results are obtained post-ACA (Affordable Care Act). The clichéd “snap on a band aid and send out the door Medicaid” is surely not our wish for the Nigerian populace. This I say in response to some calls for 100% government funded health insurance. A more workable alternative for Nigeria is Capped Access by Category payments (this will be addressed in another article).

•When a service is crucial to diagnosis, such a service can/should only be treated as core and never ancillary otherwise the patients suffer and misdiagnosis becomes the order of the day.

By the way, the word on the street is that “Nigerian healthcare professionals are wicked, and only went to school for the money and prestige that medical school would give them and that they are intentionally doing things to make more people sicker so they can get more patronage!” . Can this be the truth? Redeeming our collective image by changing our ways is the next best thing to do. Start requesting minimum laboratory investigations for all patients especially considering our environment, endemic diseases and known penchant of the general populace for herbals and herbal supplements. Thus, Urine microscopy/Urine analysis, Full Blood count with microscopic- examined slides or at the very least the Haematocrit (we have enough manpower wasting away) must be requested as baseline investigations even for private hospital practitioners. The alarming rates of Kidney disease and failures is worrying and making use of simple laboratory tests before prescription of potentially nephro-toxic drugs must become sine qua non standard in the Nigerian healthcare sector. Health care access is not only about being able to get to the hospital. It includes but is not limited to getting the best care possible for every individual.

We can choose at this junction to do one of three things:

Continue with the in-house wrangling till the house collapses on all.



This will be very easy to do, just keep passing the baton of strikes back and forth till the people rise up to say Enough! It is instructive to note that the people who really need our services often do not have the ability to pay what is right for those services. It is time to begin to call our altruistic selves back to life from the dungeon of an early death. The vulnerable poor, above 60% of the populace cannot afford quality healthcare. How do we help them get the needed attention from our “always travelling out for medical attention” government and elite class?

2.Convene a round table of ALL stakeholders chaired by an invited expert in mediation and conflict resolution because I have no doubt tempers will still fly at such a forum.

The objectives of the stakeholders forum should be firstly, the identification of health policy experts; formation of think-tanks who will for a start work on solutions to the current crisis and in the long-term work at formulating home-grown policies tailored to Nigeria’s peculiar health challenges and who would always be ready to provide modifications for communities that do not quite fit the box models. A definition of home-grown models will suffice- “When we say home-grown, it is not a proud claim to being an entirely original idea of ours but, one formulated with recognition of our peculiar challenges and environment as well as one having enough room for modifications per community in our multi-dynamic country.

3. Complicate issues further by continually importing ideas and solutions for the health sector without due consideration for the peculiarities of our nation and the people.

I know the option I would prefer, what is your own option or perhaps you have a better one? Please do share, Nigeria needs all the help it can get now.

As a blessing in disguise, identifying our mistakes can be the very catalyst we need for the change we all should be working towards- a functional and responsive, culturally competent healthcare system; one that meets the needs of our people firstly in a humane and timely fashion. I am already on board that ship and I hope you will join by sharing this article until every stakeholder has gotten the message. Thank you for reading, sharing and taking necessary action/s.
https://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20140710010449-126258749-the-nma-joshesu-face-off-is-a-blessing-in-disguise-for-nigeria?fb_action_ids=10152292485773719&fb_action_types=og%2Elikes

They will not want to debate. That's how Omembe missed the channels interview with other health workers last week. Let them come out and trash this issue once and for all.

NMA should stop using her death to score cheap publicity. After all, she is not here to state her own side of the story.

Fernandez01:

My dear, if you knew the pathogenesis of cancer you'll reconsider your stance

You guys should stop using Dora's case to score cheap publicity. Which kind rubbish be this. You diagnosed her, and the cancer waited for Ten good years to come out. The cancer just respected itself for ten years? Imagine comparing yourselves to US doctors. What made you think that even after you remove the tumor that it won't come back and that she hasn't been visiting other hospitals?Mtcheeeewww

Fernandez01: @op the only thing cogent about your write-up is the grammar in which it was expressed . Apart from that it is full of known facts distorted to establish your biased stance . The gullible may read your post and fall for your subtle deception , but a discerning mind will always see the falsehood embedded in your write-up.
No where in the world is a doctor's training at par with that of a nurse. So the fact that your were breast-fed with a little pathology does not mean your understanding of the pathologic basis of diseases is as indepth as that of doctor. Though you claim you were tutored with the same notes,I can bet you that the exams were not the same. Besides the standards used to examine medical students is not the same as that used to examine a nurse. In my days one mark is subtracted for every question you fail (that's negative marking for you) .
The falsehood expressed in your post is certainly laced with the same stupidity you are complaining about. This post of yours is obviously tailored to delude the less informed masses. The error in diagnosis you mentioned above is a result of our failed healthcare system characterized by inadequate equipments and not necessarily due to a doctor's incompetence ,even in the US with all their glory and splendor in medicine patients still die due to misdiagnosis ( review Dora akunyili's case of cancer starting from the onset )
And please winning a debate and scoring higher that 'some' medical students does not make you special , the medical school as a whole regardless of your field of study (medicine , physiotherapy etc ) is a pool of brilliant minds however your training is different from that of a doctor so don't expect the same responsibilities . Besides a student's grade is influenced by many factors so those people you think your first year result surpassed theirs may be more brilliant than you many times over ( personally I always score excellent grades but I don't consider myself better than those who at one point or the other score less because the university is full of many factors that can distract a student )
Just for the records that academic achievement you think you have that makes you assume that you have arrived is no big deal , postgraduate degrees (phd ,msc etc) are very common among doctors infact most doctors go ahead to obtain international fellowships (fwas ,frcs , frcp etc) so stop getting high on your relative under achievement

OMG! this is the most intelligent write up I have ever come across since this NMA/Johesu war started. I love the writers command of English, and the way he articulated his points without insulting any profession. This is unlike most articles i have read from doctors insulting and putting others down. You presented your case well that nobody in their right mind can fault you.You just wrote like a true professional that you are. Nursing is indeed a unique profession. Thumbs up to you.

I didn't say anything about headship in my post. Don't know why you are shouting. And no need of doing research to prove that. those doctors have the extra qualification (e.g MBA, masters in hospital administration), you can google their qualifications. USA is not Nigeria where mediocrity is the order of the day. Most medical workers in US that have interest in administration are getting their MBA. If a Dr has the necessary administrative qualifications, then he/she can head. Who the cap fits should wear it. But the point is that MBBS is not equal to headship.

Besides, nobody chooses not to emigrate to USA. what could possibly be your reason? abi you like boko haram?who go even dash you work permit? lol. Who no like dollars. My point is that it is not easy for Drs. By the way, The university medical center where I am is not headed by a Dr.
Anyway, this post is not about headship of hospitals, I don't know why you want to turn it into one. I don't know your reason for calling me a liar tho.

Oduduwaboy:
You are a liar!
Guys are going and still making a success of it. Those that chose not to go had their reasons...its not everyone that likes emigration anyway! Besides i was just joking.

Also i have done some research concerning headship of hospitals in the outside world. That Doctors head Teaching hospitals of repute is not in doubt viz, Johns Hopkins hospitals, Harvard medical school affiliates ( abt 5 of them), Cedars- Sinai hospital New york, Cleveland clinic Ohio, Mayo clinic minnesota etc . Anyone can tell you that these are the foremost healthcare institutions in the United States.

JOHESU liars should desist from confusing the masses in Nigeria.

Time to run? run go where? Australia and USA, really? hahahahaha, in your dream?. Who go give you work permit for those countries? You think if it is that easy, we will still have Drs in Naija? Na local champions our Drs be. No go area. That's why they are here fighting a lost battle.

Oduduwaboy: NARD must stop acting as if it is the only saviour of medical practice im Nigeria...
If NMA deems it fit to suspend the strike then NARD must defer to the parent body. Enough of having a divided house...
But really i believe medical practice in Nigeria is rolling back to the medieval period; the government hospitals are not advancing with the rest of the world, the private hospitals are too expensive for the masses, Nigerians take pride in abusing their doctors...paramedicals want to called doctors etc. ; soon trado-medical people will also carry placards! I just cant see a bright future for medical practice in the next 100years!

I think its time to run...Australia, Saskatchewan or USA.

With due respect to my teachers, senior colleagues and colleagues, the call for downing of tool by the doctors is needless having read the ratio in which the strike was called upon.
Over the years, having worked within and outside Nigeria both in clinical and public health domains, I am strongly obliged to state that the nation’s health drawbacks are essentially caused by doctors who ordinary are meant to be the leaders of the health team. It suffices to state that, while it is true that the leadership of the health team is like a birth right, their roles and responsibility are equally a birth right, only when these are aligned that we can claim the leadership of the heath team. Come to think of the request placed before the federal government, It is sad to note that the issues are quite petty and trivial to culminate to such a decision that will result to irreversible consequences and loss of lives.
As a medical doctor with over fourteen years experience, I have never had a course to question if I am the head of any health team where I found myself as the most senior doctor or the only doctor in a collection of health practitioners in a health mission, for the simple reason that, I know my bound and appreciated that even the weakest link in my team count. I will also not pursue vanity to a disreputable feat. The posture and activities of my colleagues both at the public and private sectors is appalling, such that it has left some of us who have seen our shortfalls and have made or shown some resentment to it are seen as deviance. We must note that what we think and promote is what can endear us or otherwise to the good books of the government, other health workers and the general public.
For me, I am not surprised at the backlash we receive from other supposedly team mates in the hospital. Looking critically at their opposition to us, you will naturally find out that something is wrong with us as doctors, if not, how could we have lose the confidence of all our team mates including non medic such as the ward attendance, administration staff etc? The truth of the matter is that, if we change our corrupt and indiscipline posture, we will naturally occupy our rightful place. Take for instance, the Heads of Hospitals and many health agencies are being led by the doctors, most of which their hall mark is characterized by kickbacks, high contract inflation even to outright thieving of public funds. Our colleagues will promise heaven and earth to be appointed as heads of organizations, but as soon as they get there, their best friends and new found colleagues are the finance and admin managers and the procurement practitioners.
I have survived several heartbreaks from my colleagues (very senior) in the past and have vowed never to listen to their germane-less advocacy for headship of the health team. From national assignments to international and so many other clinical/public health engagement I have found myself, one of the most recent once was in a supposed tertiary institution headed by a doctor anyway, where doctors no matter your rank should go to the record office and queue up for prescription paper being issued by an officer below the rank of a record officer. I have also been to an organization where patients are dying in troops for simple reason of lack of machine to run tests for a certain class of patients visiting a specialty clinic. Another one was a jamboree organization where names are submitted arbitrarily for ad-hoc jobs that needs some level of expertise, yet competency was dropped into the bin and meritocracy upheld.
The peak of my heartbreak was when I worked in one of a supposed tertiary institution where in a bid to save patient life, a doctor rushed to the theatre to get an oxygen as a last point where such equipment are unarguably handy, could not find one, and we watch the man die. Here, I am not saying the man couldn’t have died, but could have died gracefully, and with some human effort. One can count on and on the rots in organizations headed by doctors.
Now my question is, of what value is the appointment of a DCMAC adds to the already CMD and CMAC that has been exclusively for doctors? How does the work of a doctor be affected by the appointment of the most senior health practitioner to direct the activities of his other colleagues as a director or how does your work being affected if a health practitioner has reached a level of expertise in his field and he is refer to as a consultant”.
It is quite worrisome to hear that my colleagues have down tool for the simple reason that the post of a Surgeon General is yet to be filled, even when the two ministerial slots are occupied by them. I believe that the hazards’ allowance be review, but doctors especially our Consultants most justify the little that has been paid by actively and routinely availing themselves in the daily routines of the hospital instead of turning attainment of Consultant in the hospital as a gateway to truancy ; my colleagues certainly know what I mean.
We are already fast losing our respect from the government and the general public, and in recent time even from our colleagues whose disposition is for the good of man.
Let me also use this opportunity to congratulate our President who has just assumed office and to urge him to be steadfast in his decision where reasoning should take over precedent than mere emotions and sentiment. Accept my unalloyed loyalty.
This piece is a wakeup call to my colleagues to look up within us and appreciate the rots and imbroglio our actions and in-actions has brought to this noble profession and the health sector in general; as the only way to solve the problem of a leopard wanting to be called a lion can only be addressed by a change of behaviour of the supposed “LION”
Abdullahi Baba Abdul is former UN medical personnel in Trinidad and Tobago.