₦airaland Forum

Na wa o. Imagine Obembe "we have medical and non-medical workers. Medical workers are Drs while non-medical are allied health workers" If the word "medical refers to Drs alone, I wonder why we have "medical"lab scientists, Medical rehab, medical image scientists.

This is getting interesting.

very thoughtful of you. All hand must be on deck to fight this killer virus.

proffemi: Correct.

Suggestion: Can we ask Seun to create a sticky on Nairaland front page with information on (a)symptoms+what to lookout for (b) preventive measures + suggested lifestyle adjustments?

I hope doctors in the house will volunteer to help with the write-up. If none does, I will be happy to generate it.

Can I also suggest that Seun and others here who manage sites try to start a chain where every Nigerian blog and site also carries such a sticky on their home page?

I also encourage everyone who has a social network page to consider linking to such a short, quick source of info on what to look out for, and what to do.

We may not be doctors, but we can kick this thing's butt!

They are trying. But Didn't they know in the first place that Nigeria is under boko haram attack before embarking on their selfish strike? Now that the masses are against them, they want to use bombing to shine. @ phantom, You attended to bomb victims and want it to be news? so we should start clapping for you cos you did the job you were supposed to do in the first place? You don't have to broadcast the good you did.

lassa fever infected more nurses than drs. we are all at risk. Get well soon to the Dr

sainty2k3: U obviously don't follow medical events in Nigeria, do u know about lassa fever outbreak s just this year anoda outbreak involving 18doctors, many life has been lost in d past. Must u always give inciting comments

ziga: There are faults on both sides of the divide.

And truthfully, this problem has been brewing for many years thanks to the FG who decided to play politics with human lives and pitch health workers against each other.

That being said, no matter how we play it, the Doctor is the head of the medical team because he bears overall responsibility.

I wouldn't say anybody owns a patient. Patients don't really care about all that crap. They only want to get better and go back to their homes. However, doctors bear the most responsibility, and this responsibility is shared amongst all other health workers unequally. And this has nothing to do with how difficult med school is or how many years of training etc. It is due to the nature of the job. It is like arguing that President Ebele does not bear overall responsibility for the kidnapped girls.

Nurses have patients too when they care for them during their shifts, and actually, they spend the most time with the patients. However, Nurses are not Doctors and should not be allowed or encouraged to do so. Reason is they are trained for a specific purpose to be Nurses.

The same thing applies to Pharmacists and Lab scientists.

People will come and say pharmacists or Lab scientists are correcting Doctors or finding out their mistakes. You did not correct the Doctor, you did what you have been trained and employed to do. The fact that you did your job does not make you a Doctor in any way. There are so many things the Doc has to consider that you do not know about. And caring for a sick person is so complicated that there has to be a coordinator and a central decision maker who is the medical doctor.

We all need to appreciate our jobs and work towards making our patients better. And most importantly, DO NO HARM. Do not do what you haven't been trained to do!!! I see so much competition for the Doctor's job by people who are not licensed or haven't been trained for it. You can't be a medical Doc, if you did not go to medical school. No matter how many years of experience or how many advanced(Masters/PHD) degrees you accumulate.

About the case of owning private hospitals. The employer can make rules about what his employer can and can't do. He who pays the piper dictates the tune. However, you have to pay the piper what he is worth otherwise he will not play your tunes.

Truthfully, there is a lack of dedication of some Docs towards their jobs. But how can you blame them if they are overworked, disrespected, they have make shortcuts in order to work in our under equipped hospitals and most importantly, remuneration is inadequate. (Same applies to other health workers)

Bottom line is that there has been so much rot and decay in the health system, and everything needs to be rebuilt from the ground up!!! Privatization!!!

In summary, doctors are the pilots in aeroplane whereas other health workers are flight attendants. Doctors are also judges in the judiciary while others are paralegal. Doctors are ASUU hence they can become VCs and other health workers are NASU and can never become VCs. only Doctors' licenses get withdrawn, whereas other health workers do not even have licenses, hence Drs own patients. Therefore, the Dr is the head and others the tail.

I wonder why you keep saying that others can never become Drs no matter what, like they are aspiring to be Drs baa? No matter how knowledgeable and experienced a Dr is, he can never be a pharmacist/lab scientist/Nurse, unless he goes back to school to obtain the right degree and vice versa.
we are all trained for specific purpose like you rightly pointed out, I don't know why one group is claiming to know every thing. Let us all do what we are trained to do and grow in our various field.

NobleIcon: Hello bro, it's too much of this your noise making. You are taking this matter too far and giving us the impression that you are feeling inferior in the field u said u are aspiring 4. If you are jealous of doctors salary, it's not let for you to go and retake waec and switch to science nd go 4 ur MBBS. Then you will know that bending is not working. Mtchwwwwww

please dear, where can one buy jamb form? Biko, I want to write another jamb to study medicine so that I can become a super human. thanks and God bless

Yours faithfully,
Jamb hopeful

nobody is saying anything about equality. That you earn more doesn't make you superior to others.

Tbamo: It's very interesting when you say you are outside nigeria. I challenge you to mention the country where you work where the doctor is equal to any other hospital worker?

Even in the worst of places ( somalia) and the best of places (Scandinavia) the doctor is the leader.

Now to the original topic. When I was an house officer the greatest hospital in nigeria ( so I don't get anybody in trouble) kept appealing to govt to procure drills for orthopaedics and OMS departments. But after repeated appeals and no forthcoming response, with a large backlog of surgeries that could not be carried out, real consultants put some money together and purchased a drill. The patients were informed abt the situation and we're told to pay a token for the maintenance of the privately sourced drill. They were also properly informed about how the drill was sourced.

A lot of patients were quick to respond and paid for the drill. And I remember that the policy was that for every 5 paid cases 1 was carried out pro bono.
Now was it wrong what the doctors were doing?

but things are already changing, that is why we are having this strike by Drs. They want to maintain the status quo. I don't have to be frustrated because I am not even in Nigeria, So neither the strike nor the policies is directly affecting me. But It pains me when I know we can do better than we are already doing, haven seen how things are being done in sane countries. I just want to see the needed change in my dear country Nigeria. Advocating for what I believe in should't be sin. And yes, we agree that the best man should head our health institutions

ziga: I'm sorry sister. We don't agree on anything.

You are just venting your frustration at the fact that Doctors head medical institutions.

I wonder why that is even an issue.

You almost seem to have a seizure whenever I say that. But it is a fact.

If you are outside Nigeria, and you are truthfully a health worker, I wonder how your organization runs.

But please read before you start to scream NMA vs JOHESU.

And also calm your nerves before you blow a fuse.

Some things can't be changed by you or I. It is how it is.

yes, we are the problem with the way we reason. I am sure your reasoning is also myopic. until we all change our mentality, we will still sit on a long thing

ziga: With the way you reason, Nigeria clearly has a long way to go.

We are the problem of Nigeria.

ziga: That's fine. Developed countries are moving away from that model, but just to justify your spite you can advocate for whatever suites you.

I'm fine with it as long as adequately qualified people who will make a positive change are put in that position. As long as we all man our positions, and anybody who doesn't perform his duty is given the boot.

But note that the CMD is a Doctor position. Its called Chief medical director.

@ the bolded, then I it's time we change the name to CEO. Imagine CMD?. At least we agree on one thing, that Nigerian Drs have destroyed our health sector with their administration. I think it's time to make the needed change, let's see how far we will go

what is your reason for bringing up the topic if it is not related to the issue at hand? Nurse vs Dr again. who should be called consultant. Mtcheeewww. There are somethings I don't bother reading, and this is one of them. Until you post something that is of interest to Nigerian health sector, you are on your own. Imagine the topic? why nurses should not be called Dr. hia!

ziga: Did you see NMA anywhere in the article.

You keep bringing up NMA like your life depends on it.

And why would you reply to a post without reading it?

Is that how you do your exams?

Please!!!

I thought this whole thing is about the NMA strike? We are in Nigeria, and no nurse wants to be called a Dr. By the way, I didn't bother reading the article because we have more important issues at hand. I also thought you were an objective person, but your comments these period are nothing to write home about. I also guess that we are who we are after all.

ziga: I thought you were an objective person at first.

But I guess a we are who we are after all.

Did you read the article at all?

Or you want me to explain it to you?

Let health administrators manage our hospitals. Let's see if there will be any change. Then, we will know where the problem is coming from, since the past administrators have failed Nigerians. That's my take. You don;t have to agree with me. shikena

ziga: So, the solution is to make you the CMD

Regardless of your qualifications?

Typical Nigerian mentality.

From your analysis, all CMDs of all hospitals over the years have been chopping money? In your eyes, the solution is to make a nurse CMD?

How much funds do hospitals receive? Do you know?

It is really difficult to reason with some Nigerians.

who is dragging the title Dr with you people? Is that the problem at hand? na wa o. I think we should face the reason why NMA is on strike , rather than confusing people. No Nigeria health worker without PhD wants to bear the title abeg The title Dr is not an issue here.

ziga: Let us know the implications of what we do!!!
For full article, see source http://www.healthecareers.com/article/why-nurses-should-not-be-called-doctor/169687

Poor funding shey? What have we done with the little funding we have so far? I guess our Dr CMD's who are the world best administrators were busy enriching their pockets with the money meant for the buying of these equipment. I am sure our health sector gets more funding than those of Ghana and other poorer African countries whose health care system are better than ours. Yet, you want to lie to our faces that Drs should continue heading ba? Diaris God ooo

ziga: Poor funding is what has resulted into corrupt practices.

How can an orthopedic hospital not have a drill?

How do you expect the Docs to do their jobs?

Docs don't need to go on strike in Nigeria for people to die.

People have been dying and Docs have to bear with the guilt of knowing that those people could have been saved since 1960.

And the FG as well as all these opportunists capitalize on the ignorance of Nigerians.

where did you see 2013 in the post?

sakaguchi: JOHESU is a fraud, big disappointment.

1. This is not news, it happened 2011. But JOHESU is pipming it, to the extent of lying that her predecessor left office in 2013. Haba! Now Nigerians know all of you are liars.

2. She's in the Army, Army appointment are by rank, she happens to be the highest ranking personnel in both the medical corps and the nursing corps. Ihiejerika was the former CDS and he was a DSS (short service). Military is all about rank.

3. Remove this shit from Nairaland, or has it being hijacked again? 2011 stuff on front page? This mod needs query.

please, this post is not about NMA and JOHESU. Every post should't be about that. Got it?

ziga: I totally agree that we do NOT need a surgeon general right now. There are other problems that need resolved.

same way we don't need consultant nurses/pharmacists/lab techs. There are so many more responsibilities that have not yet being fulfilled by these respective health workers. After all nthat is done, then we can ask for more.

There is so much more we need in the health sector.

Unfortunately, most of the requests by these organizations are mostly in competition with Docs.

And Docs are trying to guarantee their positions by some of these requests.

Until the real problems are addressed, we will only continue to go round in circles!!!

why would they be asking for such post? Is that what we need as a nation at this point in time? how will this position improve the health of the masses? don't we already have director of public health in the ministry of health? will heaven fall if he performs the role of the so called surgeon-general? Besides the SGF is a public health position. Don't know why we as a nation like big titles sha

thegeneral84: The position is the Surgeon-General in the USA Army. In the Army anywhere in the world, the highest ranking officer gets to be the Head whether Nurse or Doctor. The Nurse happens to be the highest ranking officer so she got the position. There is a Public Health Surgeon-General in the USA who is always a Medical Doctor. Nigerian Doctors are asking for the Public health Surgeon-General not military Surgeon-General.

They are creating more confusion for NMA. They now have too many matters at hand that they will soon become confused, lol

drcakes: There we have it. JOHESU is now the custodian of our Constitution and the regulator of our profession
If that's not begging I wonder what is?
So now that JOHESU has begged, who is next so that we can get to the stage of acceptance


The Joint Health Sector Union has taken the
Nigeria Medical Association to court for going
on strike, claiming that the NMA lacks the CONSTITUTIONAL right to do so
Speaking at a press conference called by
JOHESU in Ibadan on Wednesday, the General
Secretary of the Senior Staff Association of
Universities, Teaching Hospitals, Research
Institutes and Associated Institutions, Moshood
Akinade, said the doctors acted in an
UNPROFFESSIONAL manner by their refusal to treat patients

lol. so much bitterness. pele

Oduduwaboy: There is no guideline anywhere . Its all about ' i have spent 10 years on this job ' i should be made a consultant , beside ' i now have a M.sc. in Nursing administration ' from ' national open university .... so make me a consultant and subsequently ...i should also be made the Chief Medical Director etc . lol.

lol. eyaaaaa. so much bitterness

Oduduwaboy: go get a doctor to marry and stop hating on doctors joor ...

Wetin concern nurse concern Hippocratic oath ?

When did nurses start feeling too big to be nurses ? Assisting a doctor is an undeniable & integral aspect of nursing . If you feel too big for this go and find another profession.
Nurses started getting confused when they started doing B.sc nursing for hospital nursing ...we all know nobody needs a degree for bedside nursing .

lol. so much bitterness. pele

Oduduwaboy: @op...the level of your ignorance is astonishing ! Do you hate doctors this much ?
It is now clear that the basis for the crisis in the Nigerian health sector is the inordinate & inexplicable struggle for relevance of JOHESU members .
Well, if you do not know by virtue of your half-education ; Nurse Practitioner are allowed to carry out some procedures & practices in areas that are short of doctors or in the community setting . I bet you do not even understand the health system of those countries you ignorant want us to copy anyway !

Yes, we doctors are proud and un apologetically so ,especially when you know how good you are! ( am aware we have some weak colleagues just like in other professions )....

The main aim is accessibility of health care. It is already happening in other countries and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't happen in Nigeria. I accept that Govt is responsible for the whole thing, but when your demand is against another profession, then I believe the govt should do the right thing. Everybody wants what is good for the health sector. but when a group is blinded by greed and envy , then it's it's time to look for an alternative means of combating the suffering of the masses

ziga: The people who are actually most responsible are the FG.

Nigerian Docs are doing their job. And every worker has the right to down tools.

With the state of the health system, people are dying unnecessarily everyday even with Docs in the hospital.

Those are some of the issues that the Docs are fighting for. Unfortunately, the Nigerian govt has never negotiated with any group without there being some form of strike action. It is sad for things to resort to this, but when the FG holds everybody to ransome, what other options are left.

Competition is good. but should be between similar professions. Doc to Doc; Nurse to Nurse; NP to NP.

Competition across levels is never good and always yields bad results like what we have here. A Doc will never be a pharmacist, a nurese will never be a lab scientist/Doc and vice -versa. So there is no basis for competition between them.

Each state regulates their own. NP are fighting for independence, and so far, 20 states allow them to practice independently as written above, and the main aim is to reach under served population. NOTE that Drs are seriously fighting and lobbying against it as usual.

armadeo: I have read about NPs. Arent they usually in areas where there are no doctors and practice under supervision.

lol. You are forgiven

matify: You have disarmed me with your soft answers. I came spoiling for a showdown with you but I guess I just have to eat the humble pie and apologize for my outburst.
I'm sorry for calling you names.

the oath was posted because NMA members were busy ridiculing the nurse's oath, where an old and earlier version of the oath included "aiding the physician". The main point of the post is to show that the only constant thing is change. The same way Drs modified their oath and discarded the part on "gods and goddesses" is the same way the nursing profession has discarded the aiding physician part. I respect the hippocratic oath and Drs too.

matify: You are surely paranoid or on some adulterated anti-psychotics to have chosen to sway public minds with your warped and convoluted sensationalized thrash.

Why play down this part of the hallowed oath;

IF I KEEP THIS OATH FAITHFULLY, MAY I ENJOY MY LIFE AND PRACTICE MY ART , RESPECTED BY ALL MEN AND IN ALL TIMES.

You are quick to site the Hippocratic oath and X-ray those sections that support your arguments but fail to accord the doctor his due as enshrined also in that oath.

ARRANT NONSENSE!!!!

you are right anyway. but the idea of one group always going on strike at the detriment of the public should be discouraged. No group should hold govt at ransome just because they think the are the alpha and omega. a little competition is healthy though. W all need attitudinal change.

ziga: It is not just about the training.

The health system is in a lot of trouble. There is no accountability and people do whatever they want.

And like somebody else said, even if the best Docs and Nurses are imported for developed countries, they will either succumb to the system or be forced to leave if they can't bear the pressure.

We are all responsible for this problem. Nobody is satisfied with their job description and everybody is trying to operate beyond their training and scope of practice at the expense of poor Nigerians.

The administrators havven't done anything to improve facilities and everybody is fighting to be the boss.

Take a look and you will see the appalling death rates.

NPs are a good idea, but will only worsen the competition and disorder, until the health care system is organized and people are forced to do only what they are qualified to do or face penalties.

ofcourse, we will have properly trained nurses. Atleast we now have Bnsc nurses who can go back to school to become Nps. We also have nurses who are trained in advanced country that can gladly help. Some states are sending a number of their nurses abroad for advanced training. and when the time comes, we will have capable hands.

ziga: True. We need more diagnosticians. We mostly need an organized health system where people are held liable for their malpractices and health workers are paid well enough for their responsibilities.

But before we have nurse practitioners, we need properly trained nurses who can become nurse practitioners.

And that starts with first knowing what your limits and responsibilitites are.

In Nigeria, every Tom, D|ck and Harry is prescribing medicines that they know nothing about without a diagnosis.

And the ill informed common man will be ever so grateful to these "self proclaimed Docs" without realizing how much harm they have been exposed to.

P.S. I only focused on Nurses because that is the matter at hand. But the poor training/education in Nigeria cuts across all sectors (including Docs) and is begining to be a major hazard.

Everything shouldn't be about money my dear. Money is not all. It's the same rising cost of health care that brought about NPs. One of the reasons for the emergence of NP is to reduce the cost of health care, and that will not be achieved if they start charging like the physicians. Providing low cost care is their driving force, and that is why insurance companies are using them more than ever. Another reason why M.Ds do not want them, because competition brings about reduction in cost.
And really? you were sitting on a patient bed doing what? monitoring JOHESU or driving patient's away? All we need is for the law to give them the go ahead order. For now, nobody should go beyond what the law stipulated. I can't wait to see how NMA will react should Nigeria decides to introduce NP. The same ill-trained nurses as the Drs say are the ones now causing them sleepless nights in advanced countries. Just relax and watch
And like I said in one of the posts, I go to hospital for holistic care (Dr, nurse, lab scientist, Pharmacists) and not fragmented care. And for your info, My family members and I are already seeing NPs for our health needs. Not that we go to them on our own, but the insurance company chooses your health care provider for you. So yea, it's happening

I wonder why you have to sound so bitter by the idea of NP program that you have to resort to name calling? coccidiosis infested chicken really? lol. Who knows what your reaction will be when we finall introduce it.

matify: You reason like a coccidiosis infested chicken.

The NP can perform all those range of functions you claimed yet the American health care system still attaches greater importance to the doctor by making him have the highest pay packet at the month's end.

Besides, is it our crop of ill- trained and severely depreciated nurses who are incapable of basic emergency drills that will be saddled with such humongous task ?

As I type, I am sitting on one of the empty beds in an FMC with your JOHESU ally lazing about and not a single patient in sight, if they were as cerebral as you want us to believe why are our hospitals devoid of patient traffic ?

I bet you will one day seek medical help at home or abroad sometime in your lifetime and please make sure one of your JOHESU ally attend to your health challenge.

Your involvement in this discourse with flawed and unsubstantiated but plagiarized materials has setback the dispassionate arguments by rational members of JOHESU .

I bet this is the ADVERSE EFFECT of free 10MB in the hands of a social miscreant.

NMA STRIKE: The Need for Nurse Practitioners in Nigeria
I have finally decided to break my silence and join the fray of venom spiting medical and health professionals on nursingworldnigeria.com as the media war and propaganda continues,
This NMA STRIKE has once again brought to the fore the bitterness, repulsiveness and aggressive rivalry between NMA on the one hand and JOHESU on the other.
It is no longer news that the NMA has been on strike for over a week now for reasons i personally choose not to comment on. It is no longer news that the strike has crippled activities in the government hospital settings to a near standstill. What may not be news is the trend in developed countries to a breed of nurses called the "Nurse Practitioners (NPs)", I choose to call them "a doctors nightmare come true".
According to the website of the American Association of Nurse Practitioners, NPs are quickly becoming the health partner of choice for millions of Americans.
Nurse Practitioners are clinicians that blend clinical expertise in diagnosing and treating health conditions with an added emphasis on disease prevention and health management, NPs bring a comprehensive perspective to health care.
These Nurse Practitioners Autonomously and in collaboration with health care professionals and other individuals, provide a full range of primary, acute and specialty health care services, including: Ordering, performing and interpreting diagnostic tests such as lab work and x-rays, Diagnosing and treating acute and chronic conditions such as diabetes, high blood pressure, infections, and injuries, Prescribing medications and other treatments, Managing patients' overall care, Counseling, Educating patients on disease prevention and positive health and lifestyle choices.
Take out "surgery" in the equation and you would see a striking similarity between the job description of a doctor and that of a Nurse Practitioner. While these services (Ordering, performing and interpreting diagnostic tests such as lab work and x-rays, Diagnosing and treating acute/chronic conditions, infections, and injuries, Prescribing medications) provided by Nurse Practitioners would sincerely scare the shit out of any Nigerian doctor, what would even be more scary is the fact that in the united states there is a proposal to expand the ability of Nurse Practitioners in addition to all of these listed above, to practice free of physician oversight.
In the united states, A 2010 Institute of Medicine report regarding the future of nursing practice recommended that scope of practice barriers be removed for Advanced Practice Registered Nurses (APRN), along with recommendations to expand; standardize; and, streamline nursing education and integration in healthcare delivery.
As at 2013, Nurse Practitioners had the ability to provide a full range of medical care to patients without physician oversight in 20 states and Washington D.C. Other states require collaborative agreements between Nurse Practitioners and physicians to provide certain aspects of care (18 states), while others restrict care under supervision or delegation of a physician (12 states).
The NMA Strike has once again thrown to the fore front a challenge of care shortage especially at times like this. Sadly, the innocent citizens bear the brunt of death, exploitation in private hospitals owned by same NMA Folks and betrayal. The Nigerian health care system of care must begin to adapt and be modeled to challenges it faces especially in terms of consumer access to care at times like this NMA Strike.
Complimentary alternatives must be put in place to cushion the effects of another inevitable medical sector strike which i foresee as inevitable should the government succumb to the demands of the NMA at the peril of the demands of JOHESU.
The Nursing and midwifery council of Nigeria must live up to its responsibility of regulating the standards of Nursing/ Midwifery Education and Practice in Nigeria and develop a curriculum to guide a Nurse Practitioner trainging programs
It is evident that by providing high-quality care and counseling, Nurse Practitioners can lower the cost of health care for patients. Nurse Practitioners are more than just health care providers; they are mentors, educators, researchers, administrators and CONSULTANTS which the NMA so detest fully abhor!!
http://www.nursingworldnigeria.com/2014/07/nma-strike-the-need-for-nurse-practitioners-in-nigeria

so what is the cost of training for the different professions in uk? Are they the same the way we have in Nigeria?

daojay: the few I have read, why is everyone particular about the us, in the Uk/ nhs, the year one resident earns even more than the 3rd year pharmacist talk less a nurse fyi, the nurses currently exit on band 8 while the pharmacist band 9 of the agenda for change salary structure, whereas the doctors- physicians, dentists and surgeons are on a different scale entirely, if in doubt, Google the nhs site