snthesis:

a parable is defined as a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson.
one of the lessons to be learnt from the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is once you are dead there is no more repentance, nothing like purgatory, else the RIch man was clearly repentant or he could have asked that Lazarus be sent to his brothers to pray for the forgiveness of his sin in "purgatory".

The whole essence of this thread is whether purgatory is scriptural or not.This I have been able to proove with the aforementioned bible passages [size=14pt]it's scriptural basis.I wonder how you arrived at that conclusion[/size] despite having read all these bible passages.

Purgatory or state of purgation is alluded to in several other bible passages besides the ones I have already mentioned on this thread. 1 cor 3:15 mentions that some people would be saved through fire while others would not suffer any loss based on the quality of their works.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

New International Version (NIV)

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Also in the gospel of mattew 12:32 Jesus made mention of forgiveness "in the age to come" signifying that people could also be forgiven after this present age.

Matthew 12:32

New International Version (NIV)

32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

[size=14pt]After reviewing what Catholic writers have said regarding such texts as 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges: “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”[/size]

[/quote]After reviewing what Catholic writers have said regarding such texts as 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges: “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”
[quote]

[/quoteThe Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is it times not wholly paid in this life. The proofs for the Catholic position, both in Scripture and in Tradition, are bound up also with the practice of praying for the dead. For why pray for the dead, if there be no belief in the power of prayer to afford solace to those who as yet are excluded from the sight of God? So true is this position that prayers for the dead and the existence of a place of purgation are mentioned in conjunction in the oldest passages of the Fathers, who allege reasons for succouring departed souls. Those who have opposed the doctrine of purgatory have confessed that prayers for the dead would be an unanswerable argument if the modern doctrine of a "particular judgment" had been received in the early ages. But one has only to read the testimonies hereinafter alleged to feel sure that the Fathers speak, in the same breath, of oblations for the dead and a place of purgation; and one has only to consult the evidence found in the catacombs to feel equally sure that the Christian faith there expressed embraced clearly a belief in judgment immediately after death. Wilpert ("Roma Sotteranea," I, 441) thus concludes chapter 21, "Che tale esaudimento", etc.:][quote]

[/quote]
but then,when i read the bible verses,they were taken completely out of context,only for me to see that you have deliberatey excluded accompanying quoted maccabbes (2 Maccabees 12:39-45)quoted first,for people to understand the next quoted mattew 12 :32, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15,

now,it has been established by catholics themselves that adopted maccabees as a scripture,and included it in its scripture,isnt it?
quote]

[/quote]If you say a person's immaterial is held up in purgatory, what do you make of this verse:

Ecclesiastes 12:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


It says the spirit returns to God at death and has not stated that there is any intermediary place.
To refute this therefore, you must demonstrate that though the spirit returns to God, the soul is held up in purgatory for those who have not committed mortal sins.
[quote]

chukwudi44:

That verse says the spirit returns to God.I would suppose that verse is talking about the righteous departed and not those who died in their sins.I want you to know one thing for sure the souls in purgatory will definitelty end up in heaven so you mighht be right in saying there are only two places of enternal abode.

I don't think a person's soul can be seperated from his spirit as the soul is the spiritual essence of man hence the question of seperation does not arise

[/quote103. cgift(m): Quote Post

chukwudi44:

That verse says the spirit returns to God.I would suppose that verse is talking about the righteous departed and not those who died in their sins.I want you to know one thing for sure the souls in purgatory will definitelty end up in heaven so you mighht be right in saying there are only two places of enternal abode.

I don't think a person's soul can be seperated from his spirit as the soul is the spiritual essence of man hence the question of seperation does not arise


And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. ]quote]

[/quote]To a very large extent, you will agree with me that there are a lot of innuendoes, twists and turns in the whole purgatory saga which leaves its modus operandi and even the veracity of its existence largely in doubt.

For now, it seems the only verse that supports your view on purgatory is 1st Peter 3: 19. And I have given you my own interpretation of it that. What do you think? It even goes ahead to establish that those who were held up in that prison where those verse 20 Which sometime were (note past tense) disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

You see, it never alluded to present or future prisoners. I want to believe this is clear enough. Do you have any other scripture which we could consider for further discussions on the institution of purgatory?

So, Chuks, lets discuss further[quote]

[/quote]To a very large extent, you will agree with me that there are a lot of innuendoes, twists and turns in the whole purgatory saga which leaves its modus operandi and even the veracity of its existence largely in doubt.

For now, it seems the only verse that supports your view on purgatory is 1st Peter 3: 19. And I have given you my own interpretation of it that. What do you think? It even goes ahead to establish that those who were held up in that prison where those verse 20 Which sometime were (note past tense) disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

You see, it never alluded to present or future prisoners. I want to believe this is clear enough. Do you have any other scripture which we could consider for further discussions on the institution of purgatory?

So, Chuks, lets discuss further[quote]

real_Berni: [b]@chukwudi44

its very funny now that you start to admit that catholic purgatory is based on 'tradition', you 'hastily' added 'alone',
when i ask the question for the first time,why did you tell me that you dont know where i got my assertions from, see your answer below;
chukwudi earlier quote



i have a copy of same link, but since you have earlier denied that they are not catholics authentic encyclopedia,
[size=14pt]can you deny these facts from your own catholic link below?[/size] that confirm 'the acient tradition of the fathers'
and that the holy synod [size=14pt]enjoins the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached,[/size] held and believed by the faithful

[size=14pt]The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which [/size](Sess. XXV) defined:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. Bleep; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) [size=14pt]that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful"[/size] (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, [size=14pt]but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils[/size], and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

now im vindicated,that catholics mix 'tradition of men with the bible' the way pharisees mixed their rabbi's traditions (forget whatever claim they may have for such)with the scripture.

now both the pharisees and catholics are both guilty,see below again;


Matthew 15:3-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; [a] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’[c][size=14pt] Thus you have made the commandment[d] of God of no effect by your tradition.[/size]
will jesus be happy with catholics for doing that?

real_Berni: [b]@chukwudi44

its very funny now that you start to admit that catholic purgatory is based on 'tradition', you 'hastily' added 'alone',
when i ask the question for the first time,why did you tell me that you dont know where i got my assertions from, see your answer below;
chukwudi earlier quote



i have a copy of same link, but since you have earlier denied that they are not catholics authentic encyclopedia,
[size=14pt]can you deny these facts from your own catholic link below?[/size] that confirm 'the acient tradition of the fathers'
and that the holy synod [size=14pt]enjoins the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached,[/size] held and believed by the faithful

[size=14pt]The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which [/size](Sess. XXV) defined:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. Bleep; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) [size=14pt]that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful"[/size] (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, [size=14pt]but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils[/size], and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

now im vindicated,that catholics mix 'tradition of men with the bible' the way pharisees mixed their rabbi's traditions (forget whatever claim they may have for such)with the scripture.

now both the pharisees and catholics are both guilty,see below again;


Matthew 15:3-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; [a] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’[c][size=14pt] Thus you have made the commandment[d] of God of no effect by your tradition.[/size]
will jesus be happy with catholics for doing that?

AIO,

Those who died prior to the time of Noah, if you ask me, na who I go ask? As per their own judgement, I am sure some scholars will see you soon

goodnewz1: What I will not do is to ARGUE God's Word (the scripture)
And again, bear it in mind that u can't Understand the scriptures with ur human sense or intellectual knowledge.
The bible says "for now we see... 1Corinthian 13:11-12.
And if u are in this forum, yet not born again that's(personal decision to accept Jesus Christ as ur Lord and Saviour)
Do it now, I mean now as u are reading this write-up.
because if u die WITHOUT been born again, u go to hell (where u surfer before the final judgement of God which is Lake of fire (second death)
--go and read the book of Revelation 21:8, 20:10 -15.
Nevertheless Jesus loves u my bro/sis,
Accept Him today and this will be ur potion: John3:16 and so many other glorious promises of God. Revelation 21:1-7,
God bless you all !

chukwudi44:

You are just assuming that passage only to those who lived during the time of noah but [b]1 pet 4:4-6 tells us the reason why the good news was preached to the dead [/b]in 3:19 no where did it suggest it only applied to those who lived while noah was building the ark.

1 Peter 4:

3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

One more thing the fact that some people doubt the existence of purgatory does not mean it does not exist.I would also like you to explain 1 cor 15:29 and 1 John 5:16-17

Pastor AIO: What commandment of God is transgressed by the doctrine of Purgatory? Purgatory is not something that you practice in contradiction to God's commandment. Or is praying for the departed a transgression of God's law.

I thought real_berni's beef was that there is no scriptural foundation for purgatory.

By the way, you haven't even addressed the source of the doctrine of Holy Trinity. It has been brought up again and again on this thread and I am ready to bet my last pant that you will not address it. How biblical is the Holy Trinity?

cgift:

................................We are getting into the heart of the matter as I will like to further show you how manipulations, twists, and interpretations for personal gains and outright misunderstanding and misapplication of the scriptures is what underlies the concept of Purgatory and many other false doctrines.

Lets discuss this further.

italo: With all respect, cgift, I think you too mature for this kind of questions you're asking.

"1. How long do you stay in purgatory? days, months, years?
2. How many masses do the priests have to say before the soul gets cleansed?
3. How much do the penitents pay for the masses to be conducted for the souls in purgatory?
4. Is purgatory a place where the will of the dead is functional and can therefore decide he does not want the cleansing? Or the will of that soul is quenched in purgatory and cannot therefore make a decision for itself? I again ask, where is the God of freewill in all of this?
5. Are there flames in Purgatory? If so, what are the similarities between the lake of fire (what people call Hell today) and the flames of purgatory?"

They have no bearing on deducing the supposed existence or non existence of purgatory.

1. How long will judgement last? Seconds, minutes, hours, days?
2. Will we be seated, standing or prostrate during judgement?

Can you answer these questions? Do they make sense? Do they do anything to prove wether there'll be Judgement or not?

Let not go down that line pls...

We are getting into the heart of the matter as I will like to further show you how manipulations, twists, and interpretations for personal gains and outright misunderstanding and misapplication of the scriptures is what underlies the concept of Purgatory and many other false doctrines.

[/quote]113. cgift(m): Quote Post

chukwudi44:

You are just assuming that passage only to those who lived during the time of noah but [b]1 pet 4:4-6 tells us the reason why the good news was preached to the dead [/b]in 3:19 no where did it suggest it only applied to those who lived while noah was building the ark.



Chuks my guy,

Thanks for your response. I am pleased you are sustaining the momentum but we must put thins in proper perspective and not take things out of context. I am sure Berni took time out to explain 1 Peter 4 : 4-6 in earlier discourse. If I remember, she took time to explain how the verses in 4- 6 cannot be taken out of the context and tied to what was being discussed in Chapter 3 about the issue of the prison. Why take us back again?

Briefly, running through



1 Peter 4:

3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


n bible studies, you get a better clue as per what is being discussed when you look at the preceding verses before the verse of interest. The Bible describes us as DEAD in our sins (see Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

The dead being referred to therefore implies those who who dead to the Life and Love of God and are walking in sin desribed in many words as "lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries" in 1 Pet. 4 above.

It does not have any connections to your assertions about the prisons.
[quote]

[/quote]113. cgift(m): Quote Post

chukwudi44:

You are just assuming that passage only to those who lived during the time of noah but [b]1 pet 4:4-6 tells us the reason why the good news was preached to the dead [/b]in 3:19 no where did it suggest it only applied to those who lived while noah was building the ark.



Chuks my guy,

Thanks for your response. I am pleased you are sustaining the momentum but we must put thins in proper perspective and not take things out of context. I am sure Berni took time out to explain 1 Peter 4 : 4-6 in earlier discourse. If I remember, she took time to explain how the verses in 4- 6 cannot be taken out of the context and tied to what was being discussed in Chapter 3 about the issue of the prison. Why take us back again?

Briefly, running through



1 Peter 4:

3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.



In bible studies, you get a better clue as per what is being discussed when you look at the preceding verses before the verse of interest. The Bible describes us as DEAD in our sins (see Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

The dead being referred to therefore implies those who who dead to the Life and Love of God and are walking in sin desribed in many words as "lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries" in 1 Pet. 4 above.

It does not have any connections to your assertions about the prisons.





One more thing the fact that some people doubt the existence of purgatory does not mean it does not exist.I would also like you to explain 1 cor 15:29 and 1 John 5:16-17


You are right in saying that the fact people do not believe in it does not stop it from existing? Very correct and that is why we are having this discourse but a great deal of burden relies on you to convince your audience and even perhaps yourself in so doing on the truthfulness of some doctrines which we hold dearly unto but with very shaky foundations.

Would something that serious and important in the overall salvation of a man and transition from this earthly realm to the kingdom of God be left to such ambiguities and whimsical interpretations of men relying on mere allusions as against real substance from the Word of God? I do not think so.
[quote]

[/quote]Here is the question that Paul asks. Why do believers who are under persecution continue to hold to their faith in a resurrection that results in their being persecuted if there is no resurrection? And why do new converts rise up to be baptized to replace those who are being put to death if there is no resurrection of the dead? Why are new believers being baptized and filling up the ranks of the church in place of those who have died if there is no resurrection when it results in being in danger every hour and in daily danger of death ("I die daily
[quote]

[/quote]113. cgift(m): Quote Post

chukwudi44:

You are just assuming that passage only to those who lived during the time of noah but [b]1 pet 4:4-6 tells us the reason why the good news was preached to the dead [/b]in 3:19 no where did it suggest it only applied to those who lived while noah was building the ark.



Chuks my guy,

Thanks for your response. I am pleased you are sustaining the momentum but we must put thins in proper perspective and not take things out of context. I am sure Berni took time out to explain 1 Peter 4 : 4-6 in earlier discourse. If I remember, she took time to explain how the verses in 4- 6 cannot be taken out of the context and tied to what was being discussed in Chapter 3 about the issue of the prison. Why take us back again?

Briefly, running through



1 Peter 4:

3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.



In bible studies, you get a better clue as per what is being discussed when you look at the preceding verses before the verse of interest. The Bible describes us as DEAD in our sins (see Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

The dead being referred to therefore implies those who who dead to the Life and Love of God and are walking in sin desribed in many words as "lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries" in 1 Pet. 4 above.

It does not have any connections to your assertions about the prisons.





One more thing the fact that some people doubt the existence of purgatory does not mean it does not exist.I would also like you to explain 1 cor 15:29 and 1 John 5:16-17

Now, I would not waste much time on this as it essentially declares that there are sins that leads to death and there are those that do not lead unto death. It is very explicit and I do not want us to delve into that as not to even sway us away from the main issue at hand.
[quote]

[/quote]. How long do you stay in purgatory? days, months, years?
2. How many masses do the priests have to say before the soul gets cleansed?
3. How much do the penitents pay for the masses to be conducted for the souls in purgatory?
4. Is purgatory a place where the will of the dead is functional and can therefore decide he does not want the cleansing? Or the will of that soul is quenched in purgatory and cannot therefore make a decision for itself? I again ask, where is the God of freewill in all of this?
5. Are there flames in Purgatory? If so, what are the similarities between the lake of fire (what people call Hell today) and the flames of purgatory?


We are getting into the heart of the matt[quote]

Deep Sight: ^ ^ ^ Can we address the question of choice and freewill cgift raised concerning purgatory.

Pastor AIO:

I thought they were dumb questions too, but then on closer inspection I realised his reason for asking those questions.

I think that in law they say that if you can show a motive for the accused then that strengthens your case against the accused. For instance if someone is to gain by inheriting a dead man's property then that strengthens the case that says he is the murderer of the dead man.

Similarly, if you can show that Purgatory (or any doctrine of a continued evolution of the soul after death) will lead to exploitation manipulations, and outright thieving then Voila!, you have the entire raison d'etre of the doctrine.

The only problem with this is that if such reasoning is applied to the entirety of christianity, or the entirety of organised religion, but most especially christianity, then we have no choice but to conclude that the entire edifice is deviced precisely for the exploitation of humans and that there is no truth in it at all. The history of the ways christianity has been applied even up to the present day will serve as evidence against it.

It is a weak way to argue. It is like saying that if a rich man dies then all his heirs must be charged for murder.

But such thinking is not untypical of africans. In Oyo, back in the day, if the Alafin dies then his Aremo (crowned prince) must also die with him. This was done to prevent regicide. I couldn't help but think how idiotic this is when I first heard it.

What about the 2nd son? He could kill the father in the knowledge that his elder brother will go to the grave with him and he would become Alafin. Anyway . . .

italo: With all respect, cgift, I think you too mature for this kind of questions you're asking.

They have no bearing on deducing the supposed existence or non existence of purgatory.

1. How long will judgement last? Seconds, minutes, hours, days?
2. Will we be seated, standing or prostrate during judgement?

Can you answer these questions? Do they make sense? Do they do anything to prove wether there'll be Judgement or not?

Let not go down that line pls...

What becomes the fate of those whose sins do not lead to death. Would there still make it to heaven even in that state of sin

Deep Sight: ^ ^ ^ Can we address the question of choice and freewill cgift raised concerning purgatory.

First there is the Axiom, or particular belief of the interpreter. This is often supported by a literal reading of some portion of the bible.


Once this has been accepted then everything else that is in the bible is interpreted to fit in wth the Axiom. Even things that are literal contradictions will be forcibly interpreted in such a way to make it fit the axiom. There is no limit to human ingenuity when it comes to doing this.

cgift:

AIO, you! In an instance you play a middle man's role and in another you spew anger Let me leave you for now.



Did I strike a nerve?