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| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by Nobody: 1:25pm On Mar 31, 2012 |
Purgatory in accordance with catholic teachings is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who after departing this life in God's grace are not entirely free from venial faults. I must add that the catholic church distinguishes between two classes of sin; venial sin in which state the person would head to purgatory or purgation preparatory to ascension to heaven. Mortal sin in which state the sinner will head to hell for enternity Biblical backing for this can be found in 1John 5:16-17. While in purgatory,beleivers are enjoined to pray for the souls of the departed so as to accelerate their cleansing and ascention into heaven. While is pertinent to add that the ord purgatory is not mentioned in the bible so also are such words like"trinity","incarnation" and even the "bible".There are merely used to describe events/conditions mentioned in the scriptures |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by Nobody: 1:33pm On Mar 31, 2012 |
Purgatory or state of purgation is alluded to in several other bible passages besides the ones I have already mentioned on this thread. 1 cor 3:15 mentions that some people would be saved through fire while others would not suffer any loss based on the quality of their works. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 New International Version (NIV) 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by Nobody: 1:44pm On Mar 31, 2012 |
Also in the gospel of mattew 12:32 Jesus made mention of forgiveness "in the age to come" signifying that people could also be forgiven after this present age. Matthew 12:32 New International Version (NIV) 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by Rich4god(m): 2:29pm On Mar 31, 2012 |
My respect to you chukwudi44... Plz kip it up. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by PastorAIO: 3:01pm On Mar 31, 2012 |
If we are to read nakros as sometimes figurative and sometimes literally, I accept that. What I need to know is WHEN to apply the figurative reading and when to apply the literal reading. Is there a criteria? This is what will give this whole issue more rigour. And next, let's discuss the elephant in the room that everybody is ignoring, whether by pretending it is not there or by honestly not seeing it. 6For for this cause was the gospel preached [size=15pt]also[/size] to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. If gospel was preached ALSO to the dead (ie the unsaved) then who was it preached too before it was preached to the dead? |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by goodnewz1(m): 11:01pm On Mar 31, 2012 |
chukwudi44: @frosbel |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by goodnewz1(m): 11:03pm On Mar 31, 2012 |
chukwudi44: @frosbel Here is Goodnewz4u: In 2Timothy 1:16-18, Paul actually was praying for his partner in ministry while in Rome; He Paul did not indicate him(Onesiphorus) as been dead ! Concerning Purgatory or whatsoever it's called, There is no place in the bible that the word of God(Jesus) told us to pray for the dead in order to obtain God's mercy or salvation in the grave. There are many who theorize that these verses speak of a kind of purgatory, the spiritual under-world, or intermediate place of the imprisoned lost. But these theories are contrary to all that the holy canon declares about our mortality. The Bible is perfectly clear that whatever spiritual condition a person is in when he dies (whether saved or unsaved), that is the condition in which he will stand before God in judgment. There is no possibility for a second chance at redemption after death. Ezekiel 18:4 *. "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Romans 6:23 *. " For the wages of sin is death.." Hebrews 9:27 *. "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Once a person dies, his chance for redemption is over. Because he is then paid according to what he has earned (wages) in this world. There is no Spirit preaching to us afterward, for it is appointed unto men onceto die, and then the judgment (Hebrews 9:27). By the same token, when we receive salvation in this world by the work of Christ, we are no longer under condemnation and are judged as perfect before God. There is nosecond chance at salvation after death. This truth is also made abundantly clear in the parable of Lazarus. Christ explains the parable saying there is a great gulf fixed ( luke 16:26 ) where it is impossible for the redeemed to pass from one side to the side of the damned, or vice versa. Thus if one diesunsaved, that is the condition that they will spend eternity in. So then, what does this passage of 1st Peter mean? In this brief F.A.Q. we will take a look at this verse in light of scripture, and let the Holy Spirit of God reveal his truth to us. In all honesty, only the word of God can interpret the word of God. No one else can. 1st Peter 3:18-20 *. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit: *. by which also He went and preached unto the saints in prison; *. which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the Ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight soulswere saved by water." These can be difficult passages, but we can begin to come to an understanding of what they mean if we follow carefully what it declares with no preconceived ideas about it's meaning, and " in the light of the rest of the Bible ." For the Bible was not the writing of any private interpretation of the saints of old, and neither is it subject to our private interpretation today. 2nd Peter 1:20-21 *. "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. *. "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spakeas they were moved by the Holy Ghost." Every word of the Bible is inspired of God, and thus cannot be subject to man's personal opinions, will, or imaginative explanations. Faithful saints are those who are led by God's word. They are not those attempting to lead it. Only through the Holy Spirit, and by circumspect comparing of (andstudy in) scriptures, will we ever come to thetrue understanding of what it truly means. And preaching to the spirits in prison means that, by Christ's death and in the flesh and quickening by the Spirit, He sent the gospel that set free the spirits in prison. With these humble beginnings, it is now a matter of simply defining by "biblical terms." But let's go about this systematically. We first search the scriptures diligently to find what the spirits are, what the prison house of spirits are, and how could it be that by Christ's death and resurrection, these spirits were preached to. We cannot simply presuppose or guess at it, we have to search, study, and compare scripture with scripture to glean the truth. And sticking to the fundamentals, we find that the answer is really self evident. The spirits in prison are all of the unsaved for whom Christ died. And this is totally in harmony with these verses. God uses the word prison ( as we shall see ) to symbolize Satan holding unsaved people in spiritual captivity. Thus those spirits are the spirits whom Christ came to set free. In other words, our spirit being in captivity to Satan, are the spirits in prison. E.g.: 1st John 4:1 *. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they be of God: becausemany false prophets are gone out into the world." What are these spirits that we are not to believe? They are the spirits in prison. In other words, they are those people who are held in spiritual captivity. They are those who are spiritually in bondage to Satan. These are the types of spirits that God is explaining in 1st Peter, that by Christ's deathand resurrection he preached deliverance to.The death He suffered was at the cross, the hell He endured was the wrath of God as He was laden with our sins (2nd Corinthians 5:21), and the wages He paid was what we were due for our sins. When He was resurrected, He was risen without those sins. In the real sense, as the second man, the second Adam, we were buried and resurrected "with him." These spirits that were in prison, and that were preached to by His death and resurrection, are us. Acts 2:31 *. "He seeing this before spake of the Resurrection of Christ, that His soul was Not Left In Hell, neither His flesh did see corruption." This is the 1st Resurrection, that if we have part in it, we will never die. And because Christ has preeminence as the first raised, we also are raised up in Him a new creation. Colossians 2:12 *. "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Romans 8:9-11 *. "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. *. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. *. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Christ's Spirit that dwells within us because of His death, preached deliverance to our spirit, and that is why we were drawn to God. This is what 1st Peter means by Christ suffering for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. This is the understanding of this verse. The Death that Christ suffered at the cross was more than simply physical death. It was more than simply the grave. That is what many do not really understand. There was a real work and accomplishment of Christ at the cross. Christ's accomplishment was that He defeated Satan, spoiled (took by conquest) his palace (Luke 11:21-22), and set our spirits free from his spiritual prison house. He spoiled Satan's kingdom, and loosed the spirits that that he held in bondage. Again, that is what the passage in 1st Peter chapter 3 refers to: This work and accomplishment of Christ by His suffering, death, and resurrection for our sins. 1st Peter 3:18-20 *. "For Christ also hath once Suffered for Sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us unto God, being put to Death in the FLESH, but quickened (made alive) in the Spirit. *. By Which He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" We died with Him, and were raised up with Him, being quickened or made alive in the spirit. It was in this Spirit that Christ preached to our spirits in prison, and by which He draws us to obedience in the will of God. The key words here are, " by which ." He was made sin for us, and by His death in the flesh and being made alive in the Spirit, that Spirit preached the good news to our spirits that were in prison and were sometimes disobedient (All men sin and fall short of the Glory of God). It is by the Spirit of Christ that the spirit of man in the flesh (the spirits in prison) hear the gospel or good news of the Grace of God. We don't hear because we have better ears, or because we are better listeners, or because we are smarter people, we hear the gospel because of the death and resurrection of Christ "for us," that His Spirit abides as teacher, preaching within us. 1st John 2:27 *. "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not thatany man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." The gospel is preached to us "by this" through the word. Likewise, it was the same"for the old testament saints." It is Christ's quickening Spirit that freed them from the spiritual prison house of Satan and caused them to trust God and preach the gospel. It was by this same Spirit of Christ that God brought Noah (and his) the gospel of deliverance He preached. The efficacy of the cross reaches all the way back to Noah, even to Able. The prison is the spiritual darkness which is a bondage to sin and servitude to Satan, in which all men are held fast. This is what Christ went to the cross to do. This is the prophecy which was foretold. And these truths are spiritually discerned through God's word. Jesus put it as plain as it can getwhen He referenced His fulfillment of the prophesy: Luke 4:18 *. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to Preach Deliverance to the Captives, and Recovering of sight to the blind, to Set at Liberty them that are bruised." Is God talking about some theoretical sojourn into purgatory to preach to spirit captives? Not at all. He is talking about the Salvation of all those for whom Christ came to set free. It's talking about the preaching of deliverance by the Spirit of Christ, to the spirits in Prison. Those who are held captive in Satan's spiritual prison house of darkness is what this prophesy foretells. God is signifying that these are those being brought out, by that preaching into the lightthat they can see. These are the spirits in Prison that 1st Peter says Christ (by his deathand resurrection) preached to. Note that Luke 4:18 clearly says that this is indeed what He was sent to do. It's talking about our spirits being set at liberty (free) from bondage to Satan. This is the real accomplishment of the death and quickening of Christ. He brought us the"good News" of Liberty. And when Jesus read in the Holy Temple those words of Isaiah (Luke 4), and said He was the fulfillment, He was instructing us to search the scriptures and understand the spiritual nature of that prophesy, and the Kingdom that is within us. Isaiah 61:1 *. "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me; because the Lord hath anointed Me to Preach Good Tidings unto the meek; He hath sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the Prison to them that are bound." Is God saying that Christ came to go to the literal prison houses of the Romans, as that is what He was sent to do? To set literal prisoners free from literal earthly captivity? Were the captives in this prison whom Christwas prophesied to preach to and deliver the criminals who had broken the Roman law? No, these are prophesies of spiritual prisoners of Satan who had broken God's law. I.e., the spirits in prison that Christ was sent to preach liberty to, were us. Not a mythical place called Purgatory, or some intermediate holding pen, but our spirits in this robe of flesh. This scripture says that Jesus preached to disobedient spirits in prison who died before the flood of Noah. Although I myself do not quite understand the full ramifications of this verse, It does make sense that when Jesus defeated death, he could have proclaimed his victory to the wicked spirits in Hell, in other words he heralded their soon coming judgement, and then of course he set the righteous spirits free to abide in Heaven. It doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus gave the wicked (spirits) a second chance to repent as the New Testament scriptures are quite blatant about the fact that you can only repent while you are alive. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by Nobody: 3:31am On Apr 01, 2012 |
[/quote]70. goodnewz1(m): Quote Post The fate of onesiphorous was clear enough in that passage.Paul was remniscent of the kindness showed to him by onesiphorous in the past he goes ahead to say that God sould show him mercy on the last day.Even in all is greetings onesiphorous was not even mentioned by name as every greetings were directed to his family. 70. goodnewz1(m): Quote Post Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Romans 6:23 70. goodnewz1(m): Quote Post . " For the wages of sin is death.." Hebrews 9:27 Why don't you compare this bible passages with 1John 5:17 All wrongdoings is sin but there is a sin which do not lead to death As you said earlier you do not read one scripture in isolation |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by Nobody: 3:38am On Apr 01, 2012 |
[/quote]70. goodnewz1(m): Quote Post The identities of these spirits were never in doubt.The succeeding verse explicitly states that these are spirits of those who disobeyed God while Noah was building the ark and were killed in the flood which saved only eight souls including Noah. The verse is explicit enough and does not have any thing to do with us.Even. 4:6 makes it explicitly clear that good news were delivered to the dead |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by PastorAIO: 10:53am On Apr 01, 2012 |
goodnewz1: Please could you help me with my project. Could you please tell me how you arrived at the conclusion that Onesiphorus was in Rome and not dead. My project is to demonstrate that when you have a text as the basis of your faith then the only limitations to the doctrines of that faith will be the limitations of your imagination. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by PastorAIO: 10:57am On Apr 01, 2012 |
So you are of the opinion that spirits can apply to human beings too. I wonder what Real_berni has to say about that. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by realBerni: 2:52pm On Apr 01, 2012 |
@chukwudi44, seems we have spent much time on 1peter chapter 3,4. having seen your defination of purgatory,something that interest me is that[size=14pt] 'the nine letter word'= 'purgatory', does not appear in the whole entire bible scripture? isn'nt that funny? [/size] [size=14pt]my question is, is purgatory a wholly bible based teaching?[/size] please answer that question above,if purgatory is really a wholly based bible teaching. why i ask is that,going through your quoted bible verses,there were conflicts which i will compare and show you later. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by realBerni: 3:30pm On Apr 01, 2012 |
[b]@chukwudi44 your definations of purgatory below; Purgatory or state of purgation is alluded to in several other bible passages besides the ones I have already mentioned on this thread. 1 cor 3:15 mentions that some people would be saved through fire while others would not suffer any loss based on the quality of their works. 66. chukwudi44: Quote Post Also in the gospel of mattew 12:32 Jesus made mention of forgiveness "in the age to come" signifying that people could also be forgiven after this present age. Purgatory in accordance with catholic teachings is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who after departing this life in God's grace are not entirely free from venial faults. [size=14pt]your definations of purgatory above when compared with the catholic encyclopedia,s defination below 'it agrees with each other'even the quoted bible passages are same with the encyclopedia in 1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034 [/size] Definition: “According to the teaching of the [Roman Catholic] Church, the state, place, or condition in the next world . . . where the souls of those who die in the state of grace, but not yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for the temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins that have already been forgiven and, by so doing, are purified before they enter heaven.” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) While is pertinent to add that the ord purgatory is not mentioned in the bible so also are such words like"trinity","incarnation" and even the "bible".There are merely used to describe events/conditions mentioned in the scriptures [size=14pt]also i aknowledge your assersion above,that purgatory is not mentioned in the bible, my question still remains that,is porgatory a holy bible scriptures teaching? or guessing? or speculation?, because bible as a whole has its own teaching outside other scriptures that distinguishes it from scriptures that are 'not holy',so pls explain,im waiting.[/size][/b] |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by PastorAIO: 3:56pm On Apr 01, 2012 |
real_Berni: Please while you wait for Chukwudi's response could you tell me if Trinity is 'a holy bible scriptures teaching'? or is it guessing or speculation? How was it arrived at? Can you please also explain to me one of the bible's own teaching that is not the result of someone's interpretation and is a fundamental tenet of christianity? I also posed a question earlier that still requires answering: 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. If gospel was preached ALSO to the dead (ie the unsaved) then who was it preached too before it was preached to the dead? |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by cgift(m): 4:14pm On Apr 01, 2012 |
Chukwudi and Real_Berni, I want to appreciate the two of you for the discussions. It has shown a good level of maturity, some little deviances notwithstanding. Lets continue the discourse. I will however admonish as the scriptures say that : "we see in part and know in part..." We can only try to explain what we think we see or know but most times there is so much more than what we can see, perceive, or know. No one therefore can really say he is correct in most of these things apart from the basic fundamentals of the scriptures in which we all agree on like (General Repentance, love, humility,faith, etc) some other topics are way beyond what we see in the letters and until we see Him in his second coming and the end of days, the major meaning of what we read in the scriptures will never be made known to us. Our perfection will be complete when he returns and is not limited to perfection in righteousness but knowledge as well. Berni, Even some Xtain teachings are inferential and never mentioned in the bible. So, that Purgatory is not mentioned should not be an issue because even Rapture for instance is never mentioned in the Bible but we have given it the name to describe an event described in Thessalonians concerning being caught up in the air with Christ in his 2nd Coming. In the same way, Purgatory i guess, is inferential and is the name chosen to describe the events / scenes Catholics are trying to paint with the scriptures Chukwudi has been meting out since. But to further expound on the debate Some puzzles (perhaps to Chukwudi): 1) What is held up in Purgatory? Is it the Body, Soul or the Spirit of the dead person? 2) Also, if the Bible says the Soul that sins shall die, a)[/b]where would you then say the Spirit of a serial killer that dies goes to? Also purgatory? Or is murder still venial?[b] b) If not purgatory, I guess you would say Hell Fire right? So, do you say some are judged instantly at death and therefore do not wait for a general Judgement Day when God will judge the whole world? c)[/b]Do you think the concept of hell fire is real? And do you think someone who has being sent to hell fire would be taken out to come face the judgement ? [b]3) What kind of sins do you refer to when you say sins that do not lead unto death? How do you then know whether the person you are praying for has committed venial sins or otherwise? Ciao |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by realBerni: 6:01pm On Apr 01, 2012 |
[b] @Cgift So, [size=14pt]that Purgatory is not mentioned should not be an issue [/size]because even Rapture for instance is never mentioned in the Bible but we have given it the name to describe an event described in Thessalonians concerning being caught up in the air with Christ in his 2nd Coming. In the same way, Purgatory i guess, is inferential and is the name chosen to describe the events / scenes Catholics are trying to paint with the scriptures Chukwudi has been meting out since. cant you see that if we continue to compare and contrast bible verses without 'solid bases' from the bible,the argument will continue and get us nowhere, but providing scriptural bases will 'summarise'our points, i have not admitted to believe in rapture,so it goes to no issue here, but [size=14pt]does the fact that someone is a thief (so to say,an example) does it justify you 'to steal'? [/size] also, your point above seem to [size=14pt]undermine warnings in these bible[/size] verse below; [size=14pt] Revelation 22:18-19; I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you. Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.[/size][/b] |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by realBerni: 6:14pm On Apr 01, 2012 |
@chukwudi44,cgift [size=14pt][i]maybe i should rephrase my question again, is purgatory based 'on tradition'? since it is not mentioned in the bible[/i][/size] |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by Nobody: 11:38pm On Apr 01, 2012 |
[/quote]But to further expound on the debate Some puzzles (perhaps to Chukwudi): To answer your first question I would say what is held up in purgatory is a person's immaterial. Essence which would include spirit and soul.The body perishes and rots away after death. The scripture has led us 2 know of the existence of venial and mortal sins but it does not go ahead to list which sins fall under what category.christians are enjoined to flee entirely from sin in all ramification .To answer your question even though the scripture does not go ahead to expatiate on this classes of sins ,we know from our own moral law that some sins are definitely more repugnant than others.The catholic church describes mortal sins as those sins whoose consequences are so great as to warrant immediate seperation from God.I would think a serial killer should fall under that category The catholic church teaches on particular judgement which implies that the soul @ death is faced with judgement before being despatched to it's reward or punishment as the case maybe. To answer your last question,there is no way one can know for sure our relatives/friends are in purgatory or hell hence we are all enjoined to pray for the soul of our loved one's so in case they happen to be in purgatory |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by Nobody: 11:44pm On Apr 01, 2012 |
[/quote]i]maybe i should rephrase my question again, is purgatory based 'on tradition'? since it is not mentioned in the bible[/[quote] The whole essence of this thread is whether purgatory is scriptural or not.This I have been able to proove with the aforementioned bible passages it's scriptural basis.I wonder how you arrived at that conclusion despite having read all these bible passages. Kindly provide explaination to Pastor AIO's questions and the one I asked in 1 cor 15:29 |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by TheClown: 11:56pm On Apr 01, 2012 |
@ real berni DO you believe in the trinity? Is it mentioned in the Bible? I advise you to step out of you Protestant enclosure and consider Purgatory from a neutral point. You have a lot of scripture that talked a man dieing once, of the wages of sin being death but the truth still remains that there are also some bible verses that give credence to a mid place that is neither hell nor heaven (since the word purgatory must appear in black and white in the bible before its accepted). Most times, we accuse people of what we are also guilty of, being dogmatic, rigid and sticking to teaching rather than reason. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by Nobody: 12:00am On Apr 02, 2012 |
If you are not comfortable with the word purgaory let us go with the word PRISON which was used to describe it in the bible.You appear to be ignorant of how the books of the bible were compiled. The word BIBLE did not exist prior to the fourth century CE,even such terms like old and new testament were framed centuries after the death of Jeusus by Tertullian of carthage.Prior to the fourth century CE the differant books of the bible had existed as seperate scriptures alongside several other writings and was not even delineated into chapters and verses we have today. It was only in the fourth century CE that the church taught it wise to canonise and unite these scriptures by bringing them together under one document which was then designated as the bible. The entire gospels,acts,letter to the hebrew and some other writings were entirely anonymous,it was through this same oral tradition which you so despise that these books were named. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by JohnnieZM(m): 1:32am On Apr 02, 2012 |
Chukwdi you are here still on this purgatory thing? Guy rest it purgatory does not exist...you know we have discussd this in the other topic (Why are youths leaving the Catholic Church) which you are here quoting my name. And every anti-purgatory person who have commentd here, kudos! Pastor A1 please leave the conversation you are no help...you are nt even taking any stand! Chukwudi and all Catholics here read your bible, give your life to Christ and avoid hell. Jesus gave us two ways: Broad way which lead to hell and narrow way which leads to life eternal! I have renounced Catholicsm and never will I go back there! Jesus is Lord. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by PastorAIO: 7:45am On Apr 02, 2012 |
Johnnie ZM: Chukwdi you are here still on this purgatory thing? Guy rest it purgatory does not exist...you know we have discussd this in the other topic (Why are youths leaving the Catholic Church) which you are here quoting my name. And every anti-purgatory person who have commentd here, kudos! Pastor A1 please leave the conversation you are no help...you are nt even taking any stand! Chukwudi and all Catholics here read your bible, give your life to Christ and avoid hell. Jesus gave us two ways: Broad way which lead to hell and narrow way which leads to life eternal! Na bible passage everybody dey take discuss for here. No be by force of repetition of rhetoric. I don't know if you have noticed that. If you get something to say abeg bring your bible passage. The only stand that I take is for Truth. Or at least what I perceive to be Truth. I see too many people who have obviously not thought critically about their positions but try to enforce it by yabbis and cajoling. This is not cool. And I will stand against it. I'm not in cahoots with Chukwudi or any catholics. I am merely recognising the validity of his position. I will agree that I'm not adding anything to this conversation if you can answer this question for me and the answer proves to have no bearing on the thread:
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| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by LogicMind: 7:54am On Apr 02, 2012 |
goodnewz1: So according to you, some already have their reward and others have already been found guilty, condemned and serving their punishment before judgement by the just god? Tell us please, what is the purpose of this "soon coming judgement"? |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by PastorAIO: 8:00am On Apr 02, 2012 |
I missed when goodnewz said that. was Jesus 'proclaiming his victory' to wicked spirits or was he, like the scripture says, preaching the gospel to them? Claiming Victory and Preaching Gospel are two quite different things. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by Nobody: 9:21am On Apr 02, 2012 |
Johnnie ZM: Chukwdi you are here still on this purgatory thing? Guy rest it purgatory does not exist...you know we have discussd this in the other topic (Why are youths leaving the Catholic Church) which you are here quoting my name. And every anti-purgatory person who have commentd here, kudos! Pastor A1 please leave the conversation you are no help...you are nt even taking any stand! Chukwudi and all Catholics here read your bible, give your life to Christ and avoid hell. Jesus gave us two ways: Broad way which lead to hell and narrow way which leads to life eternal! One thing with you is that you like arguing with emotion without adducing any facts that was why I abandoned the other thread for you.You keep saying purgatory dosen't exist without adducing any evidence to back up your claim.In the last thread you simply ignored all my questions and kept on blabbing.Please argue with facts and address any questions raised by the dissenting party |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by snthesis(m): 11:48am On Apr 02, 2012 |
too lazy to read the post before mine  but the issue of purgatory is addressed in the words of my Lord Jesus Christ through the parable the rich man and Lazarus Luke 16:14-31 once dead there is no remission of sin. shikena. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by PastorAIO: 12:36pm On Apr 02, 2012 |
snthesis: too lazy to read the post before mine I found this interesting website. I haven't read it all, and neither do I agree with everything in it, however it provides plenty of food for thought. I definitely think that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man presents a lot of problems for many contemporary 'christian' doctrines, but what it does not do is address or disprove purgatory. In fact it seems to support it. After all, Why would the rich man be in torment while his family were still enjoying on earth? I thought the dead were to lie unconscious until judgment day when the whole world would be judged together. The Rich man seems to already have his judgment. And if he is not judged yet then at least we know that he is conscious in death. Conscious enough to want to warn his family. Anyway sha . . here's the website: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm Lazarus and the Rich Man |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by cgift(m): 1:38pm On Apr 02, 2012 |
Weldone Chukwudi, You have tried at least with some of my questions. I however have some reservations with some of your responses and I state them hereunder: Chukwudi's response below:
If you say a person's immaterial is held up in purgatory, what do you make of this verse: Ecclesiastes 12:6-8 King James Version (KJV) 7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. It says the spirit returns to God at death and has not stated that there is any intermediary place. To refute this therefore, you must demonstrate that though the spirit returns to God, the soul is held up in purgatory for those who have not committed mortal sins. Also, it is clear that some serious ambiguities greets your assertions as you have implied from your response to mine. You said since there is no way one can know what ordinary sins and mortal sins are as the Bible did not throw light on them and as such, you are only encouraged to pray [b]whilst hoping [/b]that the dead man has not committed any mortal sins that would make your prayers of no avail. It therefore leaves so much room for speculations as you have said that you would "think" a serial killer falls into that category. We are not to start defining what our notions of sin is in this instance as it means that if you know someone that was a serial killer, you will simply refuse to pray for him since you "think" he must have committed a mortal sin. Again, I think it is highly debatable and subject to so much misinterpretation. Does it now mean that the serial killer you have refused to pray for will simply not transit into heaven in the long run just because you did not pray for him? Or do you imply that your prayers are only catalysts and may not be really needed since God will ultimately judge whether the person qualifies for purgatory or not? I hope you get my message of the uncertainties. Now I would like to ask you this again: What determines how long one will stay in purgatory?. Now back to the main issue under contention: I Peter 3: 19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. Allow me introduce a new twist in expounding on why I do not believe in this transient place which perhaps all discussants have omitted in the course of this debate and it goes thus in putting the pieces together: The bolded part of the scripture above states: "While the ark was being prepared" - In the days of Noah, there was simply no basis to use in judging them especially those who died before the completion of the ark. Now my conjectures: The spirits in prison being referred to Peter in his text were simply those that had no means of salvation offered them and died before the ark was completed. When the ark was fully built, there was a means of salvation (the ark) already made and anyone who outrightly ignored Noah's call to ascend the ark simply perished. However, the ones who died before the ark was ready had no means of salvation given and had to be locked up in prison and had Jesus' visit prior to his ascension to heaven after His death on the cross. People at the different dispensations would be judged according to the moral code that was in existence or the vehicle deployed for salvation at that point in time of their lives. Lets discuss this. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by snthesis(m): 1:59pm On Apr 02, 2012 |
Pastor AIO: a parable is defined as a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. one of the lessons to be learnt from the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is once you are dead there is no more repentance, nothing like purgatory, else the RIch man was clearly repentant or he could have asked that Lazarus be sent to his brothers to pray for the forgiveness of his sin in "purgatory". 1 Like |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by talome: 2:23pm On Apr 02, 2012 |
@snthesis, in that story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. Think about somewhere else that he might be. |
| Re: Catholic Purgatory: An Absolute Insult To Jesus Christ! by realBerni: 2:29pm On Apr 02, 2012 |
[b]@chukwudi44 [size=14pt]i want to appreciate your loyalty to your catholic faith, but unfortunately, your own people has disappointed you, how?[/size] your quote below; The whole essence of this thread is whether purgatory is scriptural or not.This I have been able to proove with the aforementioned bible passages [size=14pt]it's scriptural basis.I wonder how you arrived at that conclusion[/size] despite having read all these bible passages.[size=14pt]why i arrived at that conclusion willbe treated below.[/size] in you previous defination 1and 2,of purgatory,(quoted below) Purgatory or state of purgation is alluded to in several other bible passages besides the ones I have already mentioned on this thread. 1 cor 3:15 mentions that some people would be saved through fire while others would not suffer any loss based on the quality of their works. 66. chukwudi44: Quote Post Also in the gospel of mattew 12:32 Jesus made mention of forgiveness "in the age to come" signifying that people could also be forgiven after this present age. [size=14pt]you quoted mattew 12 :32, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, in your defination,and it agrees with the catholic encyclopedia's same bible quotes below; [/size] [size=14pt]After reviewing what Catholic writers have said regarding such texts as 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges: “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”[/size] but then,when i read the bible verses,they were taken completely out of context,only for me to see that you have deliberatey excluded accompanying quoted maccabbes (2 Maccabees 12:39-45)quoted first,for people to understand the next quoted mattew 12 :32, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, now,it has been established by catholics themselves that adopted maccabees as a scripture,and included it in its scripture,isnt it? you claimed that catholic 'purgatory' concept is scriptural, but it contradicts the catholic's basis of 'purgatory,you said that you dont know how i arrived at that,but i believed that you should have dig into the catholic 'fundamental beliefs' before you choose to defend it.but i want you to confirm my findings,and i want others to 'search for my quotes from the catholic encyclopedia 'as my witness' as a confirm proof against your assertion that 'porgatory is scriptural'. they say that 'you cant be rome,than the pope',We also thank God that technology allows us to have quick access to 'recorded history of the catholics'and the 'catholic encyclopedias',thats why i loved white men,they keep records,so; [size=16pt]what is the catholic's basis for purgatory?, lets see what catholic itself admits to be their basis for 'purgatory' quoting from their encyclopedia; [/size] [size=14pt](1) the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.” (2)New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XI, p. 1036, 1037. “Many think that the total suffering of purgatory is identified with the awareness of the temporary postponement of the beatific vision, although the more common view holds that, in addition to this, there is some positive punishment . . . In the Latin Church it has been generally maintained that this pain is imposed through real fire. This is not, however, essential to belief in purgatory. It is not even certain. . . . Even if one chooses, with the theologians of the East, to reject the idea of suffering induced by fire, one should be careful not to exclude all positive suffering from purgatory. There are still real affliction, sorrow, chagrin, shame of conscience, and other spiritual sorrows capable of inflicting true pain on the soul. . . . One should remember, at any rate, that in the midst of their sufferings these souls also experience great joy over the certainty of salvation.”— (3)“What goes on in purgatory is anyone’s guess.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 9. (4)“The church has relied on tradition to support a middle ground between heaven and hell.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 7. confirm these first i dont mind wasting time to proove it from 'catholics own books' [/size] search 'the libraries' or go to the'net libraries' if you dont mind i can send you volumes of 'catholic encyclopedia in pdf files, to copy,just give me your mail or i can send you their confirm website,i think you must be aquainted all with these undisputable facts coming out from catholics own books . now, if purgatory's basis is tradition, then can you say that catholics are not guilty of why jesus condemn the pharisees; Matthew 15:3-6 New King James Version (NKJV) 3 He answered and said to them, [size=14pt]“Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? [/size]4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; [a] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’[c] [size=14pt]Thus you have made the commandment[d] of God of no effect by your tradition. [/size] now, The written tradition of the pharisee was in loggerhead with the law commandment,and jesus rebuked them. The bible itself was confirmed 66 books 39 OT and 27 NT,with 40 writers ,and see another warning;Revelation 22:18-19; I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Deuteronomy 4:2 [size=14pt]You shall not add to the word that I command you, [/size]nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you. Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him[size=14pt]. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.[/size] now we have an addition of maccabees,teaching tradition of men against the teaching of the bible. my point here is that the catholics encyclopedia admitted to this error,far before you(chukwudi) were born so dont start another topic of when bible was called bible or not,because if we go into that,the page may not contain us and people reading will be bored, all CONFIRMED bibles holy scriptures are 66 books,39 OT and 27 NT,with 40 writers,and God himself the author. unholy scriptures also exist and that is why christians are warned; 1 John 4:1 4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but [size=14pt]test[/size] the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. thess.5:21 21 Test all things; [size=14pt]hold fast what is good. [/size]"For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (2 Macc. 12:44-45). "Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:25-26). "Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:13-15). what do we learn here? [size=14pt]1# maccabees is not 'part of holy scriptures' 2# catholics admits that based on 'comparing maccabees with other bible verses as in mathew and corinthians above' they admitted that purgatory is not based on 'holy scripture'but tradition.the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) confim pls [/size][/b] |
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