₦airaland Forum

I'm not the one detracting from the issues at hand, you are. The issue at hand is the validity of Pascal's wager, not the evolution-creation debate. Calling evolution (or rather evolutionary theory) a belief system is hogwash. It most definitely is science. You may not like it's philosophical implications, you may think the evidence isn't sufficient, but it meets all the criteria of proper science. That cannot in a million years be said about 'creation' no mater how hard you try to equivocate the two on epistemological grounds.

let me show you what i mean; read my initial post; i said 'that is not the ideal situation', i don't live by Pascal's wager because i have evidence of the God i believe in. i was just making a cautionary statement to Mayor.
So, disregarding Pascal's wager, we're back to where we started; did everything create itself; or did someone create everything. those are the only two plausible philosphical approaches. the other one, that we are not really here and we are just imaginary, can be disregarded.
Now coming to evolution being science; i totally disagree; science is basically the study of what can be observed. there is no peculiar evidence for evolution; every asserted evidence is always disproved later on. Neither is it observed, so tell me why that should be science. Creation as well is NOT science, but it is scientific. what ultimately happens is two people are presented with the same evidence and they make two different conclusions. by and large, if one wanted to be fair, the evidence for the latter interpretation is much more overwhelming than the former. Most scientists have a naturalist worldview, and as such there is an ab initio rejection of a creator, that's why evolution is still around, because they don't have any substitute, on the other hand, all peculiar evidence for a creation is rejected because it is not mainstream.

Explain the logic you apply then to arrive at that conclusion. I'm curious how you can possibly get there on logical grounds.

its a basically simple question; if evolution is true, what will the evidence be? if a creation is true, what will the evidence be? ie if someone created things as they are, what evidence would he have left in what has been created?

1. Why can there be only one creator?
2. Why is there a need for a creator?
3. Assuming (1) and (2), why does that make Pascal's wager valid?

why can there only be one creator? what does that mean? if there is more than one creator then they'd be working together, so it still doesn't make any difference.
why is there need for a creator? if you see a building do you ask why there is need for a builder? if you see a painting, do you ask why there is need for a painter? the question is 'what are you seeing'? I see a creation, so it makes perfect sense to say there is a creator. the question then is, again, if there has been a creation, what will the evidence be?
coming to Pascal's wager - again, i don't live by it, so i don't say it is valid, however there is no denying that it is plausible and beneficial.

How do you determine the probability of yours being right? What gives you a more valid claim to truth than the followers of all these other religions?

first, its not a probability - i know you have to use that word, becuase you can never be sure of mental knowledge. and herein lies your assumption, our minds UNDERSTAND, they can never KNOW for certain, so everything has to be about probabilities; because, ultimately, how do we know that our minds are not imaginary and we are deluding ourselves. you assume that the same things apply to the spiritual - not so.
that's the difference with spiritual things; the spirit is the seat of true and certain knowledge, so its not about probabilities its about certainties; i'm not arguing to gain knowledge, i'm arguing from knowledge. that's why i'm a believer - i'm SURE of what i hope for, and CERTAIN of what i don't see physically (ie the spiritual). that doesnt mean i know everything - it only means, i don't argue about things am not definite or sure about.
the goal of spirituality is to know God and i'm certain i know him and have evidence for him all around and within me.

Your point?

my point is just the above; there is no CERTAINTY in organised religion.

Actually, I would not make the same statement based on identical premisses. What you do is using what needs to be proven as a premisse in your argument. That formally makes your argument logically invalid. An invalid argument remains invalid, regardless of the premisses.

it has been proven to me, it hasn't been proven to you. we are back to square one. 'what needs to be proven' applies to you, not to me.

As you know it is - in the absence of omniscience - impossible to prove a universal negative. Therefore the onus is on you, the one making a positive claim about the existence of soul and spirit, to bring sufficient and conclusive evidence for that claim.

what kind of evidence do you seek? laboratory evidence? what?

Explain to me why the assumption of soul and spirit is the most parsimonious explanation for your observations.

its not an assumption for me. i said 'if you assume a soul and a spirit, you'd make the same statement i made.' did you even give it a little try?

That's patently false. I don't have any assumptions, I just want evidence for your assumptions before I accept them as valid, a perfectly reasonable position.

no, it is not false. you assume everything is physical but you are wrong. You are conscious of yourself and of your mind; you are conscious of logic and of the possibility of something being true or false; the soul is the seat of self-consciousness. you have evidence for your pocessing a soul. You probably do not have evidence for your pocessing a spirit, but we can go into that later.

That's really not the issue. Your reasoning was just logically faulty and, even under the assumption of the validity of your premisses, your argument didn't hold any water.

Naah, my reasoning was not faulty and you never did consider the validity of my premises, you didnt even try.

nferyn:
Lots of nominal Catholics. They only go to church on special occasions like communions, burials, etc. Anyway, most of the believers have a generally secular attitude as well. Religion is considered as something private.

ok. just like i thought; the churches must be really empty except on those 'special' church-worthy days, lol
By your second statement you mean people don't try to discuss religion publicly and convert people? or that they are into secular humanism as well?

No, not at all. She takes them to church and I don't object. Children should be exposed to as many viewpoints as possible. The only thing I don't accept is indoctrination and badmouthing of free thought, but she would never do that anyway.

wow, that's very fair of you. you must be a 'holy' atheist, LOL. I also do not subscribe to indoctrination; and a lot of it is going on these days on both sides. at least i'm aware of the indoctrination of kids in american schools.

What I'm referring to is someone that comes from an environment where he or she isn't immersed in supernatural beliefs, there is very little chance that person will become a theist. If you don't grow up with some belief in the supernatural, the God concept, whether Muslim or Christian doesn't make sense at all.

very little chance; OK. Impossible, No. I'm sure there are people with such an experience. Immersion is supernatural beliefs can go either way; lead you to GOd or lead you away from Him.
i believe that there is an internal witness in every person of something outside of this world; regardless of what environment they grew up in. the only difference is with those who grew up in an environment where they are exposed to the supernatural; they can quickly confirm their inner longings and find answers; but with the other, they can easily suppress it. but you're still left with looking for a suitable worldview to explaining those things we don't understand, and some resort to atheism.
remember; its nature + nurture = phenotype, the former is always there; the latter isn't necessarily so. and by nature, i don't mean genes; there are other things.

That's the reason why I don't have any problem at all with exposing my children to religion, it can only enlighten them

unfortunately, if what they are being exposed to is catholicsm, your goal would probably be acheived. they'd question it and get out.

nferyn:
Ricadeline, just in case, don't forget to say your daily prayers to Wotan, Isis and Zeus as well. You know, just in case
Do you have some time left to actually live after you've worshipped those thousands of gods?

LOL, don't detract from the issues at hand, remember i said; 'that is not the ideal situation' its just a cautionary statement to mrmayor, thats not what i live by.
anyways, first; there are two possible mechanisms for life as it is on earth; either things created themselves (abiogenesis, evolution etc) or someone created them. its very simple; and they are BOTH belief systems, neither of them is science.
Based on logic, i regard the latter as true, and the former as ludicrous. So, no matter what the number of religions or gods out there, there can only be One creator; the only question then is, which One is it.
So don't bring in any false anologies that are baseless into the issue; there can only be One creator
I've said before that spiritual claims can be tested; and i believe i've tested a lot of the claims out there and found one to be true. Its a common gimmick to try to class all religions as one, or say since they can not all be right, then they are all wrong. that makes no sense.
What you need to know is that, alongside many other facets of human endeavour, organised religion is designed to lead people away from the true God, not to Him. Organised religion is confused, that's why they can't seem to agree on anything. Eventually, they'd all come together under the banner of ecumenism and unification.

How do they call that logical phalacy again? Ah, yes, assuming the consequent it must be and you can throw in a non sequitur as well.

for you, its assuming the consequent; for me, it isnt. I've said it before, i have premises that you do not have. If you had the same premises you'd make the same statement. Let me explain; you assume man does not have a soul and a spirit; if i had that same veiwpoint of course this kind of statement would seem ludicrous - from what we can observe you don't really have a basis to make that assumption. But in my case i assume man has a soul and spirit and he is eternal; and i have a basis from what is observed to assume that. if you had that same premise; the statement above would make perfect sense.
we both have different assumptions built in; its just a question of 'which assumption is right'?
you see, before making categorical statements like the above; try to imagine or think about the premises the other person may have that led him to such statements - you just, then, might understand why they say what they say. Cheers.

@nferyn,
really beautiful family you've got there; didn't know you were married to a nigerian.
very nice pics.
i also didn't know that belgium has lots of catholics - i thought most people are secular, like the rest of western europe. or is it just a nominal thing?
cheers.

mrmayor:
You believe in a Supreme Being just incase HE/SHE turns out to be real after all.

In my case, that's not why i believe in God. I beleive in GOd because HE IS. you can scoff all you want.
However, one thing you should remember is that you will die. and when you die, you'd be dead for a VEEEERRRRRRRYYYYYYYYY LLLLLLOOOOOOOOOONNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG time. so you better be REALLY sure there is no God, because if there is, man,,,,,,,,
the onus is on YOU to be sure, rather than the opposite. the odds are seriously against you, and except you are REALLY SURE there is no God, which every logical person will tell you is impossible (you'd have to be omniscient to say that), then it makes perfect sense to prepare just in case there is One - although that is not the ideal situation.
SO. i don't think it is folly if one makes preparation for eternity. its perfectly sensible to prepare for journeys that last mere days. what about the journey of eternity,,,, why can't people see how valuable their souls are?
Oh well.

@my good friend KAG,

KAG:
I, on the otherhand, will stick with what the evidence has shown: that snakes don't talk, that our solar system isn't geocentric, the Earth isn't stationary and flat, the Universe and the Earth are billions of years old, a worldwide flood couldn't have occured, a wooden boat couldn't have held all the various species, etc.

don't mix falsehood with truth. the bible doesn't teach that snakes talk, it says the serpent in the garden did. it doesn't teach that the solar system is geocentric or that the earth is stationary and flat; quite the opposite.
the universe and the earth are CANNOT be billions of years old, a worldwide flood could have occured and a wooden boat could have held all the various kinds of land animals (note, not species - that is mixing error with truth).
I believe in a literal reading of biblical HISTORY.
Bring your evidence to the contrary so we can trash them. Cheers.

@afroqueen,
nice post. just a rejoinder

afroqueen1:
The world's facts say earth started out of evolution or the big bang.

The world's propaganda says that, the physical evidence doesn't. its not facts, its propaganda. All the evidence in creation points to the creator (Rom. 1;20). there is no evidence for evolution or the big bang, nobody has observed evolution because its just not happening - NOTHiNG is evolving. its jst a religious propaganda arising from a naturalist worldview.

the most difficult person to argue or exchange ideas with is the one who has made up his mind NOT to understand.

i agree with most people on here;
Jordin has the best all round 'package' in terms of marketability; beauty, charm, age and a good voice
However, hands down, Melinda was the far better singer AND stage performer, beyond that she is a TRUE role model because she is very humble and exudes true inner beauty and character.
She can sing any and every type of song - that type of talent only comes along once in a while.
She was the only reason why i watched the show all those months.
Anyways, congrats to Jordin but Mel is my American idol.

goal; to determine if God is reasonable or 'how reasonable GOd is'
strategy; ask him about which religion 'got it right'

how does that tell if the God is reasonable? Lets say his answer is atheism (LOL) will that tell you anything about his reasoning facilities? can't you see your assumptions; first, that he reasons the way you reason, and thus if he chooses a religion that seems unreasonable to you then he is unreasonable. You are assuming that what seems reasonable to you should seem so to him. that is arrogant and foolish.
Second, that God's 'reason' or mental capabilities is shown in the 'right religion' - can't we say that the religion in itself is seperate from his reasoning faculties? and that, rather than use reason as a yardstick for religion, he has used other things? You assume that the most 'reasonable' religion should be the 'right' one. that's not necessarily true; he can use another yardstick; emotion, deeds, foolishness, belief etc.

Indeed, human reason does not lead people to God, instead, it leads people away from him (Rom.8;7). If God were to have employed reason as the yardstick for salvation, then it would have been the exclusive of the professors and the 'wise' men of this world and that would just have sucked, LOL. Thank GOd for His wisdom (1Cor1;18 - 2;16)
we'd leave the 'wise' men and professors to their atheism religion . they are just fulfilling scriptures (Rom.1;19-22). cheers.

@thesilent,

thesilent1:
@ ricadelide,

You obviously have not been fortunate enough to have come across any of Horus's posts; they are a real eye opener

LOL, i know you, the very master of sarcasm

@the silent,

thesilent1:
i don't think man's sin has changed to be honest. i just think that we are more aware of what is going on out there.

i usually agree with you but i have to disagree here. Fine, the sin hasn't changed. However, the degree has. there are statistcs, and they show that in the last 50 years, a lot of negatives have been on a spiking increase.
i beleive that we are nearing the time of the harvest, and what you get at the harvest is consumation; everything will bear fruit according to its kind; evil will be consumated in Depravity and good in Perfecton; that is why it will become increasingly clear who is of God and who is not and thus there can be seperation. The difference will be clear. Ultimately, consumation of evil will result in the man of sin, and with the church; the glorious church (the perfect man (Eph4;13) and then He will return. Cheers.

elijah1nig:
If fornication is not sin as you claimed, them where do you put the Scripture in the book of Hebrew " Marriage is honourable in all the bed undivile" have you not hard that whoremoger and adultrials God will judge. Do not be decieved pre marital sex is sin and God hate those that are endulging themselves in pre marital sex.

Sorry, i have to correct you; God does not hate the sinner, he hates the sin. Cheers.

@Nosa,

nosa101:
I have never read Hebrew 11:1

I have. I believe i understand what it means.

nosa101:
I have never read Hebrew 11:1Faith in my context means belief without proof (i'm tempted to insert scientific). Blind followership or blind belief, something that keeps you believing despite everything that contradicts what you believe in. My friends died in a plane crash, which isn't just "right" and God should never let things like that happen but faith keeps you from not believing. If I was a Muslim or a Jew, I'll probably still have this faith.

You get what I mean?

I get what YOU mean, but that's not what faith in the biblical context means. Faith in the biblical context is a spiritual thing, and it means the acceptance of spiritual evidence above the physical. In fact, faith is 'being SURE of what we hope for, and CERTAIN of what we do not see' ie the spiritual. So faith does not involve probabilities, it involves certainties. Second, faith is NOT blind. NO. Faith is spiritual vision - it is seeing the unseen. True, a person of faith can disregard what he sees physically (2Cor.5;7), but that's because he is seeing the spiritual (Heb. 11;10). He knows that the spiritual is above the physical, that's why he is more sure of what he cannot see than what he can see; because the spiritual (ie God's word) doesn't change, but the physical always does (2Cor. 4;18). So in fact, biblical faith is not blind, it is rather a superior vision.
Please don't insert scientific, because physical evidence PROVES God. it does not antagonise God.(Rom1;20) Everything that is seen points to, and providence evidence for God. its only foolish people that don't accept that.
However, many times our human experience might be contrary to what we believe - and that is what is referred to as the test or trial of faith 1Pet.1;7-8, and in such conflict, if there is true faith, the spiritual always prevails in our experience and our experience aligns itself with what we beleive. that is why miracles such as healings happen; because the person believes that God CAN heal them (Is.53;5), and thus accepts God's reality (healing) over their experience (sickness) and thus eventually God's reality prevails. True faith always PROVES itself (1Pet.1;9) and that is why those of us who have beleived GOd's word at one time, can do so again and again, and we grow in faith (2Thess.1;3) because it constantly proves itself. that is why the bible says christianity is 'from faith to faith' (Rom 1;17).
Let me explain further, faith comes as a result of hearing - when i say hearing, i mean hearing with our spirits or what we call revelation (Rom. 10;17). Revelation is a spiritual thing - and it is a product of GOd speaking to us. apart from our minds, we have another faculty for knowledge which is in our spirits and is called the intuition; we KNOW with our spirits, we UNDERSTAND with our minds. Philosophically speaking, the mind in the true sense cannot KNOW anything, that is why mental knowledge is probabilistic - how can we be ever be SURE logic itself is real? our minds could be deceiving us. However, thank God we have spirits and it is in this part of our being that we 'hear' and know GOd. SO faith is a spiritual and consequently mental accent to God's truth. In other words, faith is being sure that what God says is true, certain and will prove itself in our experience. Therefore,  what we can logically infer from that is that people who don't have faith are those who haven't heard God (sometimes because they hardened their hearts to his voice) and who thus don't have a revelation knowledge of God's word or who have the knowledge but don't accept it as superior to their experience and thus disobey Him(Heb.3;12-19).
So you see biblical definition of faith is exclusive, it is only found in biblical christianity; it is not found elsewhere. There are very few people that have this kind of faith, and it is not automatic ie you can be called a 'christian' and still not have biblical faith. I'd really suggest you read Hebrews 11. Cheers.

@nosa,

nosa101:
It's against my principles to shut down religious beliefs. So if I was born into Islam, I would have stuck with it and respected Chritianity.

you must be a very easy going guy. but scepticsm could be a good thing you know? at least am aware that you are skeptical about many biblical accounts.

nosa101:
I don't believe in belittling any religion because all religions are based on faith.

all religions are based on faith? How so? what do you mean?

2Cor. 2;16

there's no use going back and forth.

Poster 1; verse a says this
reply; no this is not what it means, it was just a fabrication of so and so
Poster 1; ok, this is another verse
reply; no, it is vague and does not refer to that.
Poster 1; what of this verse, and this verse, and that
Reply; they are all lies, and ambigous, and vague, and contrived!

i really don't have the time to go over your flagrant denial of the facts and misinterpretation of scriptures. My goal is not and has never been about winning an argument, its about bringing about knowledge and i must have really thought there was an interest in learning - albeit i was wrong.
You even went as far as accusing the writers of the new testament of lying and manipulating the scriptures just to keep from acknowledging how plainly the word holds true. Anyways, if you believe that the new testament is a contraption of lies, there is no common ground from which to argue from and we'd just be going back and forth.

this is the crux of the matter;

It is possible to know 'about' the bible, and yet not know the bible. the bible is a living book, that is why those who are in Him FEED on his words day in day out. it is our life. they cannot survive spiritually without it. it nurtures our spirits and causes us to grow spiritually in Him. Ps.1;2-3, Matt.4;4, Psalm 19;7-11 You can know about the words in the scripture but yet not know the word of God, you can know the sentences and yet not know the God of the Word. Indeed, the letter kills. For instance, you might have read about Abacha and know a lot about him, but that doesnt mean you know Abacha. You can't predict what he will do, you can't tell which choices he will make in a given situation, you can't tell that he is approaching best on his footsteps etc those kinds of knowledge are only attained on a one-to-one basis and not through third parties. Its the same with the Word of God, which is Christ. There are many theology professors who know the scriptures (i mean the letter) more than i do, but they have not touched the God of the Word. As far as God is concerned, they are third parties. They are not privy to his heart.  They are still as blinded as night (John 9;39) and don't know their right from their left. Ps.103;7 says "He made known his ways to Moses, his acts to the children of Israel". Moses knew God, the isrealites knew about God. Also, that was what Jesus was talking about in John 3;5-8. Nicodemus was a Pharisee who knew the scriptures, yet he didn't know God. John. 5;39-40. the pharisees knew the word, yet the word they knew did not profit them, because it did not mix with faith in their hearts. (just like the Isrealites in Heb. 4;2,3) However, like that verse 3 says, we who have beleived enter into that rest.

So, best wishes in your chosen course. You make me remeber the parable of the sower - indeed there are different types of soil. I'd stick to the word of GOd, which is able to transform my soul.
At the last day, we'd see who is right; hopefully Baba will rescue you before then. Cheers.

I'm not sure we've both read the same Ezekiel 40. The author describes measurements of the walls like:

I couldn't agree more. We saw the same words no doubt but read understood different things. So you think God was talking about buildings and measurements of walls? what is the spiritual relevance of that? Read the book of Hebrews. it might help. God did a lot of things in the old testament that are symbols and shadows. the tabernacle was a symbolism. it had different physical objects which illustrate spiritual realities, eg it was three dimensional - the outer court, the inner court and the holy of holies; referring to God's temple which is man having the body, soul and spirit. etc. we are children of the Judeo-christian God and we understand these things. people that are not in him don't. i'll keep hammering it.

I can't help but be amazed at the circus tricks some apologists have to perform to keep the compartmentalisation going. I mean, read the bleeding text for Christ's sake! Bah!

Cry all you want, LOL. Biblical symbolism is a whole lecture on its own i can't go into now. Symbolism is a way for God to illustrate spiritual things in human figures. However to explain to you what i mean let me quote a scripture.
1Cor 9;9-11
"For it is written in the Law of Moses, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. 11 If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?"
Paul quoted an old testament scripture. Ordinary reading to an ordinary man will seem like that verse is talking about oxen. However, if you understand that the word of God is spiritual you'd know that it has to have a spiritual meaning and spiritual relevance, and that would help you to seek out the deeper meaning of what is said. Ever heard of 'allegory'? Ever read George Orwell's Animal Farm? With certain parts of the bible, there is a literal meaning, and then there is a spiritual meaning. That is why most atheists harp on the old testament, their veiled minds not understanding the spiritual realities thus represented. I really wish they'd come and start talking more on the NT. Anyways, to continue; God is not concerned about oxen enough to write about them in that fashion. Do we even use oxen now in our day to day life? so what does that scripture mean? the ox is representative of the servants of God. the threshing is their spiritual service to God in the church and it is explaining things that relate to the church.

that verse in Ezekiel 40 alongside the verses are referring to the church. Again another rule of studying scripture; relating it to other scriptures. what do they teach? We are the temple of the living GOd. GOd does not dwell in temples made with human hands, he dwells in us. Acts 17;24-25 (The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath). Even in the book of revelations the dimensions of the temple are measured. they have their meaning. the numbers are symbolic.
this is what Paul is referring to when he says 'we speak of God's secret wisdom in a mystery' and 'we speak a message of wisdom among the mature'. Mark 4;28 - first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain, all the while increasing in our revelation knowledge of Him.
All these are things the average christian understands, and the non-christian doesn't. (when i use the term 'christian' i'm not talking generically but of a certain (relative) few - the body of believers who have been ransomed by the Lamb) and when i say christianity, i'm not talking about a religous group or sect or whatever, i'm referring to the spiritual body of Christ; i just joined that body roughly a mere 10 years ago after a long time in the Roman Catholic religious organization.
Now i quoted a lot of scriptures relating to understanding the scriptures in my prior post. Now i'd ask you to explain them to me and tell me what they mean.
Isaiah 6;9-10, also Acts 28;26 what does it mean
1Cor 2:10-16
2Cor 3;14-18. what is the veil, what does it refer to?
Rom 8;4-9
1John 2;15-18
Col1;10
Eph 1;13-18,
Eph 2;5-6

Just a few verses. Since you claim to know what the Christ should do and not do, explain those scriptures then we'd go on from there. cheers.

Now, coming to your own posts,,,,,,

Your words: "when he comes again, he will restore things, etc". Ergo, we agree that Jesus didn't fulfill that prophecy (the Christian's spin is he hasn't done it yet, but it amounts to the same thing).

Naah, you wont hear me saying that every prophecy in the scripture has been fulfilled, of course not. Every prophecy has its time frame; some pertaining to the end times, some to the second coming, some to Christ's first coming, some to the millenial reign etc.
Let me paste a verse for you,,,,
1Pet.1:10-12
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

The messiah, especially according to Jewish scribes, should do that on his first and only showing, so in context Jesus hasn't done this. Don't forget, the exercise was to show the mesianic prophecies that haven't been fulfilled by Jesus. sure, you could claim he just hasn't done it yet, but it would still be a moot claim.

If you decide to get all muddled up on this issue that we've tried to explain to you over and over again, then there's little we can do to help.
the word of God is perfect. Another quote;
Acts.3;17-25
And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18 “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22 “Moses said, ‘THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. 23 ‘And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 “And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. 25 “It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘AND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.’

I didn't say anything about any Christ's salvation work (I can't even be certain where you got that from). The prophecy was: The whole world will worship the One God of Israel" as in, the world will exalt the God of Israel above all else. That hasn't happened.

Christ's salvation work. Thats a whole topic entirely. I can't go into it now. If i say now that you don't know what you are talking about you'd think am sounding trite.
However, i really don't get your point. Is your jive that all scriptures have been fulfilled? Or that all prophecies will be fulfilled at the same time? That some prophecies cannot be fulfilled before others? that there is no time frame for a prophecy?
Of course that scripture pertains to the end. If it is meant to be fulfilled at the initial coming of the messiah, then when will you have a church? when will the prophecies pertaining to the church be fulfilled? when will people get to choose to accept him or reject him? If he is to have come as King at his initial coming, how then will the prophecies regarding his suffering be fulfilled? Can you have a reigning king (humanly speaking) being flogged and crucified? If he is to set up a human kingdom for Israel, how then will he have died?
Any systematic study of biblical prophecy regarding the Christ will show that there are two distinct set of prophecies that are mutually exclusive such that they cant be fulfilled at nor referring to the same time frame. If you don't understand nor acknowledge that, we can't help you.
Indeed there are many messianic prophecies yet to be fulfilled, that is why we have the blessed hope and long for his appearing.

Erm, biologial descendant through the father, not through alledged step-fathers.

Sorry ma, he 'biologically descended' through his mother. Read Luke 3. Both his parents were descendants of David. He didn't have a biological father, he is 'the seed of the woman' (Gen. 3;15 - again another fulfilled prophecy), and was to be conceived by a virgin Is. 7;14

I did see the word "judge" in the verse - although I'm not quite sure how that matters, and the verse doesn't imply condemnation  for all(equity for the meek, etc isn't condemning the world). In any case, you say the verse refers to the "millennial reign of Jesus", I say that prophecy hasn't been fulfilled. We agree on that much. The Jews are rightly waiting for a messiah that doesn't need excuses and second coming to excuse unfulfilled prophecies

there is no condemnation for all. there is retribution for all - each man will get whatever he deserves, whether good or bad. the millenial reign is a futuristic event.

No, those prophecise were referring to Israel, the servant of YHVH, and were not fulfilled by Jesus. I don't mind discussing Isaiah 53 with you.

No, ma, you are wrong they are referring to the Christ. I really hate these back and forth stuffs. Let me just quote a verse in that place for you; verse 12
"Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
        So His appearance was marred more than any man
        And His form more than the sons of men."
Can you see that verse? there are two objects there. 'You' and 'Him'. 'You' is clearly explained to be Isreal ('my people') but 'He' is reffering to someone other than Isreal, one person rather than many people (hence the comparison, 'more than any man'). Ever seen the passion of the christ? do you see a mental picture of that verse being fulfilled?
I can't go into Isaiah 53 with you for the sake of time. Maybe someone else will do so. But those scriptures are very special scriptures that very literally paint a picture of Christ's suffering and death.

and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Yeah, maybe the mischief makers (including many the Christians - I suppose they must be heretics of some kind) don't have the super magic interpreting power that only true Christians have.

i wonder what your point here is again. that verse has been fulfilled. it didnt say i will gather ALL the outcasts of Isreal. If you knew the bible well like you claim you'd have come across verses that said a remnant will return. (Is. 10.22) its only a remnant. and that is very clear now in our day as many jews are still in the US and all over.

Dubious, but acceptable.

LOL, you crack me up. anyways, as always, cheers

CONTINUED,,,,,,,,,

27- No bones broken: Psalm 34:20, John 19:32-36.
- Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)
- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

28- His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10, John 19:34.
- Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
- Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1, Matthew 27:46.
- Ps.22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
- Mat.27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

30- Vicarious Sacrifice: Isaiah 53:4-5, 6, 12, Matthew 8:16-17, Romans 4:25, 5:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:3.
- Isa.53:4-5 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Is. 53:6, 12)
- Mt.8:16-17 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases." (Ro 4:25, 5:6-8, 1Cor 15:3)

31- Buried with the rich: Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60.
- Isa.53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
- Mt.27:57-60 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away

32- Deserted by his followers: Zechariah 13:7, Mark 14:27.
- Zec.13:7 smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
- Mk.14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

33- Time of his death: Daniel 9:25, Luke 2:1, Matthew 2:1:
- Doing the proper computations, the Messiah was supposed to die on April 3, of the year 33 AC (Open Bible pag.833)

34- Resurrection of Jesus: Hosea 6:2, Psalms 16:10, 49:15, Luke 24:6-7, Mark.16:6-7.
- Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
- Lk.24:6-7 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

35- Other dead raised with Him: Isaiah 26:19, Ezekiel 37:7-10, Matthew 27:52-53.
- Isa.26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
- Ez.37:7-10 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
- Mat.27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

36- Ascension to Heaven: Psalms 68:18, 24:3, Lk 24:50-51, Acts 1:11, Mk.16:19.
- Ps.68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
- Ps.24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
- Lk 24:50-51 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven
- Act.1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

37- Christ at the Right hand of the Father: Psalm 110:1, Hebrews 1:2,3.
- Ps.110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
- Heb.1:2,3 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Ministry:

38- The way prepared by John the Baptist: Isaiah 40:3,5, John 1:23, Luke 3:3-6.
- Isa.40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
- Jn.1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah

39- Preceded by a forerunner: Mal.3:1, Luk.7:24-27.
40- Preceded by Elijah: Mal.4:5-6, Matt.11:13-14.
41- Declared the Son of God: Ps.2:7, Matt.3:17.
42- Galilean Ministry: Is.9:1-2, Matt.4:13-16.
43- Speaks in Parables: Ps.78:2-4, Matt.13:34-35.
44- A Prophet: Deut.18:15, Jn.6:14, Acts 3:20-22.
45- Priest after the Order of Melchizedek: Ps.110:4, Heb.5:5-6.
46- To bind up the brokenhearted: Is.61:1-2, Luk.4:18-19.
47- Rejected by his own people, the Jews: Is.53:3, John 1:11.
48- Not believed: Is.53:1, John 12:37.
49- Adored by infants: Ps.8:2, Matt.21:15--16.
50- Anointed and eternal: Ps.45:6-7, Heb.1:8-12


Source; http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

I'd be expecting your rebuttal of those prophecies. cheers.

@KAG,
i linked a webpage to you. you've not said anything about that. I decided to cut and paste it here. Here goes;

Prophecies of the OT Fulfilled in Jesus Christ of Nazareth:

There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of then made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros.

Another mathematician, Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, claims the odds of being fulfilled only 60 of them by the only person who claimed to be the Son of God, and who died on a "tree" on Calvary, and who rose the 3rd day are astronomical!, not just one in one trillion, but one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros.

And still more, because every page of the Old Testament talks and prophecies and characterizes the coming of the Messiah, the Christ in Greek, so, there are actually thousands of prophecies on the coming of the Messiah, all of them fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ and His Church as they are shown in this site.
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. (Jn.1:45)
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me (Jn.5:46).
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. (Lk.24:27)
He said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. (Lk.24:44).
He told them, This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, (Lk.24:46).

Prophecies and types of each book of the Bible fulfilled in Jesus Christ and His Church, a total of 1,093
92 Prophecies of the Psalms fulfilled in Jesus Christ
121 Prophecies of Isaiah fulfilled in Jesus Christ



Here are just 50 of those thousand Prophecies:

Ancestors:

1- The "seed of a woman": Genesis 3:15, Galatians 4:4.
Jesus was born of Virgin Mary without any man involved in His conception (Is.7:14, Mat.1:23, Lk.1:27).
- Gen.3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
- Gal.4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law. (Luk.2:7; Rev.12:5)

2- Descendent of Abraham: Genesis 12:3, 18:18, Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.
- Gen. 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. (Gen. 12:3)
- Act. 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed." (Mt.1:1; Lk.3:34)

3- Descendent of Isaac: Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34.
- Gen.17:19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."
-Mt.1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. (Lk.3:34)

4- Descendent of Jacob: Numbers 24:17, Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2.
- Num.24:17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth.
- Lk.3:34 The son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor. (Mt.1:2)

5-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.
- Gen.49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.
- Lk.3:33 The son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah. (Mt.1:2-3)

6- Hair of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7, Luke 1:32-33.
- Isa.9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. (Isa.11:1-5; 2Sam.7:13)
- Luk.1:32-33: He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Mt.1:1, 1:6)

Birth and Childhood:

7- Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1, Luke 2:4-7.
- Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.
- Mt.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. (Lk.2:4-7)

8- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18, Luke 1:26-35.
- Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
- Mt.1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Lk.1:26-35)

9- Time of his birth: Daniel 9:25, Luke 2:1:
- Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
- Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7)
- Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

10- Slaughter of the Innocent children: Jeremiah 31:15, Matthew 2:16-18.
- Jer.31:15 This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
- Mt.2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. (Mt 2:16-18)

11- Flight to Egypt: Hosea 11:1, Matthew 2:14-15.
- Hos.11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son
- Mt.2:14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt. (Mt 2:15)

12- He shall be called a Nazarene: Judges 13:5, Matthew 2:23.
- Jud.13:5 for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God
- Mt.2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene

Passion:

13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9, John 12:13-14.
- Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)
- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)

14- Entry through the "Golden Gate", that shall be shut for ever after his entrance: Ezekiel 44:1-2, Mark 11:7-8.
On Palm Sunday Jesus entered Jerusalem through the Golden Gate. When you go to Jerusalem look at the Golden Gate, it is shut with stone and cement, and with a Muslim cemetery in its front, through which a Jewish Messiah will never pass.
- Ez.44:1-2 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD , the God of Israel, has entered through it.
- Mk.11:7-8 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields.

15- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9, Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.
- Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
- Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)
- Zec.11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)
- Mt.26:15 And asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10)

16- Money to be returned for a potter's field: Zechariah 11:13, Matthew 27:6-7.
- Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
- Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)

17- Judas's position to be taken by another: Psalm 109:7-8, Acts 1:18-20.
- Ps.109:7-8 When he is tried, let him be found guilty, and may his prayers condemn him. May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership
- Act.1:18-20 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) "For, " said Peter, "It is written in the book of Psalms, "'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "'May another take his place of leadership.'" (Ac 1:16-17)

18- Accused by false witnesses: Psalms .27:12, 35:11, Mt 26:60-61, Mk.14:57.
- Ps.27:12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence. (Ps.35:11)
- Mt.26:60-61 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two men came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.'"

19- Silent to accusations: Isaiah 53:7, Matthew 26:62-63, Mark.15:4-5.
- Isa.53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. (Ps.38:13-14)
- Mt 26:62-63 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!" (Mt 27:12-14, Mk.15:4-5)

20 - Spat and struck: Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.
- Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
- Mk.14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him. (Mt.26:27, Mk.15:17; Jn 19:1-3; 18:22)

21- Hated without reason: Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5, John.15:24-25.
- Ps 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. (Ps.35:19, 109:3-5)
- Jn.15:23-25 He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason."

22- Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing: Psalm 22:18, Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)
- Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).

23- Crucified, "pierced through hands and feet": Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16, Matthew 27:35, John 20:27.
- Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.
- Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus), he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (Jn.19:37, 20:27)

24- Crucified with malefactors: Isaiah 53:12, Mark 15:27-28.
- Isa.53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
- Mt 27:38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Mk 15:27-28; Lk 23:33)

25- Agonized in Thirst: Psalm 22:15, John 19:28.
- Ps.22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
- Jn.19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

26- Given gall and vinegar: Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, 48, John 19:19.
- Ps.69:21 They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
- Mat.27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink (Jn.19:29, Mat.27:48).

@telly B,

@ricadelide,

I appreciate your outlines. Once again, thanks for adding to my understanding.

thanks. I gain a lot from reading your insights as well, especially on the threads on Islam and all. I learn so much i just sit back and read on. that's why i decided to 'specialize' on the atheism threads.   cheers.

dominobaby:
@rica, you've done well, at least i do understand what you mean.

thanks, i really needed that. Now let me go and sleep, its WAAYYY past my bedtime. cheers.

I've said this before. In understanding biblical prophecy, it has to be contextual and agree with the context. It must also agree with other parts of the scripture and thus is not subject to private interpretation of the verse alone or of the natural mind. Precept must be upon precept and line upon line, here a little, there a little. Is. 29;13. Also 1Pet. 1;20,21 "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God".

Let me continue my explanation. It is possible to know 'about' the bible, and yet not know the bible. the bible is a living book, that is why those who are in Him FEED on his words day in day out. it is our life. they cannot survive spiritually without it. it nurtures our spirits and causes us to grow spiritually in Him. Ps.1;2-3, Matt.4;4, Psalm 19;7-11 You can know about the words in the scripture but yet not know the word of God, you can know the sentences and yet not know the God of the Word. Indeed, the letter kills. For instance, you might have read about Abacha and know a lot about him, but that doesnt mean you know Abacha. You can't predict what he will do, you can't tell which choices he will make in a given situation, you can't tell that he is approaching best on his footsteps etc those kinds of knowledge are only attained on a one-to-one basis and not through third parties. Its the same with the Word of God, which is Christ. There are many theology professors who know the scriptures (i mean the letter) more than i do, but they have not touched the God of the Word. As far as God is concerned, they are third parties. They are not privy to his heart.  They are still as blinded as night (John 9;39) and don't know their right from their left. Ps.103;7 says "He made known his ways to Moses, his acts to the children of Israel". Moses knew God, the isrealites knew about God. Also, that was what Jesus was talking about in John 3;5-8. Nicodemus was a Pharisee who knew the scriptures, yet he didn't know God. John. 5;39-40. the pharisees knew the word, yet the word they knew did not profit them, because it did not mix with faith in their hearts. (just like the Isrealites in Heb. 4;2,3) However, like that verse 3 says, we who have beleived enter into that rest.

On the other hand, there are many who don't even know a lot about the bible, yet the little revelation they have, they maximise it, and they know Him who is from the beginning. The words were written 'that (we) may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing (we) may have life in his name." John 20;31. Except the arm of the Lord is 'revealed unto you' Is53;1, you can't beleive the message. And once that enlightenment takes place, its like the difference between night and day. (Acts. 26;18, Col. 1;13, Eph. 4;17-18, 5;8}  that is why when we are born anew in Him, we pass 'from darkness unto light, and from the power of satan unto God'. Reading the bible is not a mental or intellectual thing. Although we use our minds to understand what we read, it is by our spirits that we touch the Word of God. I can write a whole chapter of a book on this very basic fact; but perhaps i'm not doing a very good job of explaining things, maybe my bretheren who know what am talking about can help me out.

2Cor 4;3-4 Unto those who are not in Him, the message is veiled and they cannot understand it. i'd keep saying this truth, just like by the number of scriptures i've quoted that talks about the fact, it should be obvious to you that it is TRUTH taught in the scriptures (and proven by experience). Let me continue, the Saducees came to Him with a question in Matt 22. they thought they knew the scriptures but because they didnt know (the power of) God, they went into error. thats why Jesus gave them the reply in verse 29 and explained the scriptures unto them.

Prov.25;2 says "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter" God hides Himself and God's wisdom is hidden from men who are not in HIm 2Cor2;7 and it is only when we are in Him that the veil is taken away. 2Cor.3;15-18. that is why even after we have come unto Him we still pray for the spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him Eph1;17,18. I can't overemphasise this; the scriptures are not the end in themselves, they are a means to an end, that end is the knowledge of God. (Again, John5;39-40, John 20;31, Phil.3;10)

2Cor2;7-10, the words can be staring one in the face and one wont know what it means without the spirit of God interpreting them to us. that was my experience when i was not yet a child of God. that is the same experience with the disciples after Christ died, when, even though they knew the different prophecies, didnt understand that he had to die and be raised again on the third day (like the sign of Jonah). Luke.24;25-26.  There is a verse in the bible that says 'o taste and see that the Lord is good' (Ps.34;8}. you can't really say 'the Lord is good' except you have tasted him. Likewise there are many verses in the bible you can't fully 'know' or understand unless you have experienced them.

I hope i've made myself clear. I've really tried to, If i've not, then I'm really bad at explaining and will ask that some other person help me out. cheers.

I'm not impressed. wikipedia is your source. anyway lets treat those scriptures as they come.

* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Is 1; 26 Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city."
Read Acts3;21 the restoration work is different from the work of salvation. when he comes again, he will restore things to their proper order, and hand over to kingdom. ICor. 15;24

* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)

if you bothered to start from verse one and read it in context, you'd see tht it started with "in the last days, " those days are very much around the corner, and indeed he will judge the nations Matt.25;31-33

* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

Again, reading in context, a scripture that refers not to christ's salvation work in any way but to the Day of the Lord ie judgement. maybe you should try starting from verse 13 to understand

* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)

Is.11.1 if you bothered to read Mathew's account you'd see the royal line; he is indeed descended from king David's royal throne through his step father (Matt 1) and through his natural lineage from Mary (Luke 3;23-37)

* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Did you see the word 'judge' in that verse; he did not come to condemn the world at this time but that the world through him might be saved. Moreover if you read the chapter all the way to verse 6 and 7 you will see that it is referring to the millenial reign of the Christ; the wolf will lie down with the lamb, verse 9; the earth will be covered with the knowledge of the glory of God as the waters cover the sea. I really cant wait for that day. Before then he will judge the nations and will subdue everything; all dominions, powers and evil tyrannies will not stand. ICor 15;25,26

* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth
Blessed prophecy fulfilled in 1948. See how they distorted that verse, it didnt say 'all' but the mischief makers decided to twist the verse. it has always been clear that its a remnant that will return and they did. Many jews are still in US and many other places.

* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:

Read 1Corinthians 15; that verse is quoted and explained there.

* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

the blessed hope, ICor 15;52, Jn. 5;28-29, 1Thes 4;13-18

* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

1Pet.1;8-9, Rom. 14;7, Luke 2;10, Luke 19;37, Matt. 28.8, Jn. 15.13, John 16;22-23, Jn. 17.13, Acts. 8.8, 12;52, 14.17, 16.34 etc etc Inded we are continually filled with joy in His presence

* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)

those verses was referring in a very direct manner to Jesus and he fulfilled them to the letter. If you want an exposition on the prophecies in Is 53 and how they've been fulfilled we can do that later.

* For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3-7)

even Jesus quoted this scripture and it has and is being fulfilled. if you read through the book of acts you can see that. see Acts 2;42, 3;1, 6;4, 12;12, 13;1-3 etc

* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

again another scripture that has nothing to do with the coming of Jesus as the messiah. anyway, that is a futuristic prophecy. it is being fuliflled in the church (eg Acts. 14; 11-13 etc) We are the spiritual Jews Rom 9;6-8

* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

BTW, the jews coming back to Israel was a fulfillment of prophecy, after about 2000 years of being scattered all over the earth. i wonder what your point with that statement is.

* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

Have you read that verse in context, does have anything to do with the work of salvation but rather judgement and restoration at his second coming.

* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot

Very funny. nother contextual error.Go and read the chapter. Ezekiel had a spiritual vision of the church which is the temple of the holy Spirit. 1Cor 6;19

* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

For then I will purify the lips of the peoples, that they may all call on the name of Yahweh, to serve him shoulder to shoulder.
See misintepretation. i take it you didnt read the verse. First, which people is he referring to. Second what does shoulder to shoulder mean? the same verse in J.N. Darby translation; "For then will I turn to the peoples a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of Jehovah, to serve him with one consent." this has been fulfilled in the church. See Acts2;1, 44, Acts 4;32

* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

Indeed, ask someone who 'delights himself in the Lord' and see if He has not given us the desire of our heart.

* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

fulfilled in the church.

Typo. That should read: Well, that's one person that alledgedly tried to claim the title. Didn't do what he was meant to, though. That is, Jesus, the Christian messiah, was alledgedly one of the many that claimed to be the promised christ.

if you want a list of scriptures showing prophecies Jesus fulfilled, i can refer you to this site;
http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm
If you explain what the Christ was 'supposed to do' then we'd know if there's any need to continue this talk. As regards what Jesus did I've already explained to you somewhere else, but you seem to have your own 'requirements' or 'demands' as regards what to who He should be.

KAG:
Which part was wrong? That the majority of Jews can show messianic prophecies that weren't fulfilled by the Christians' Christ or that many Christians dubiously claim he will fulfill them at a later date? Because, apart from the "the faith was started by Jews" and "the pharisees are a hypocritical " non-sequitors, you haven't made any points that differ

can you please let me have the 'many prophecies that weren't fulfilled by Him'. FYI, I'd keep reminding you, you're not a christian, you don't know anything about the bible. Neither do you know anything about the Lord Jesus Christ. If you want to be educated, we can try to help but its only God that can enlighten a man's heart.

KAG:
I didn't misinterprete them: I've shown, with as much clarity as possible and with the verses to wit, what a plain and honest reading of the texts reveal. Anything else, done without similar candour, is disingenuous.

plain and honest reading indeed. Honestly denying the second coming, honestly denying the agreement of those scriptures with the other scriptures in the bible? the bible speaks as one, you know, and it is 'here a little, there a little' Is 28:13. No one verse is isolated, and every teaching in one part agrees with what's in other parts of the bible and it is not subject to human interpretation but to be interpreted by people who have the spirit of God. 2Pet.1:19-21

KAG:
Those would be the verses that inept Christian apologists use as excuses to practise and push their faulty, unreasonable readings as gospel truth. In any case, I've shown you what those verses say and mean. To think otherwise is foolishness.

LOL, let me let you know that you don't know what you're talking about. i don't just read the bible, by i practice what it teaches and my life has been totally transformed by those spiritual words contained in the book. Jn 5;38-40. Also, Jn 6;63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." Let me restate, if you have not touched the rhema of God, you are absolute zero in regards to understanding the bible. We are not arguing about a textbook here or about science literature, we are talking about the Word of Life that is ABLE to (and DOES CONTINUALLY) save our souls.
If you want to learn about Christianity, ask, seek, knock. Matt. 7:7 If you choose not to be enlightened, your probs.

KAG:
Typo. That should read: Well, that's one person that alledgedly tried to claim the title. Didn't do what he was meant to, though. That is, Jesus, the Christian messiah, was alledgedly one of the many that claimed to be the promised christ.

Maybe you are the one to teach us what Jesus was meant to do. Can you help? LOL

KAG:
No, you're still being silly.

sorry again ma, i didnt intend to be silly. I intended to show you that you do not know (nor understand) the scriptures, nor the power of God. Matt. 12.24

KAG:
I'm pretty sure Christians, not the Devil, started the misinterpretation of the Bible.

with all i've read from you, there is nothing you can say that can be of surprise. However, let me indulge you with an answer, FYI, Matt. 4 took place when there were as yet no christians.

If you choose to reject Christ, that's your problem; each person has his choice. But don't be so pompous as to think that you understand the scriptures, you don't. If you understood the scriptures, you'd be a christian and you'd be saved; the reverse also holds true. Its because you don't that you're an atheist. Thank God He has revealed His Word unto us, and we have been included in Him.

the Jews are not christians because they don't have understanding. If the jews understood (likewise the princes of this world), they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Acts; 28:26-28,
saying,
         ‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
         “YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
         AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
27 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
         AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
         AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
         OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
         AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
         AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
         AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’
28 “Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.”

Thank God for His saving grace. Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast

attention seeker