₦airaland Forum

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=48586.msg1068437#msg1068437 date=1177530394]In the name of Jesus Christ, may hell never be the portion of anyone reading this discussion. Amen.[/quote]Amen!! Lord, open the eyes of the deceived.

Pain:
How About Socrates Meets Satan?

LOL, i'm guessing Prometheus saw Socrates meeting Satan masquerading as an angel of light!

@ KAG,
now, reading your post, the second issue i'd address is the issue of sin and redemption.
this is an overwhelmingly broad subject and so, in order not to write a whole book here, i'd just address the concerns you raised.

when Adam sinned, he became enslaved to sin. what that means is that, he lost the ability to not do what is wrong and it became 'natural' for him to do wrong. before then, doing what is wrong like lying or stealing (just examples) was unnatural ie it wasnt the standard course of events.  After Adam became aware of good and evil, however, he naturally gravitated towards evil - because he lacked the power (we now know that ability is the power of holiness, which is the very nature of God) to choose to do good when the option of evil is present. Now, although, he was made in the image of God and was innocent, every man that came after him took up the image of Adam which was a sinful nature. (Compare Gen. 5;1 to Gen 5;3)

Now coming to the issue of morality; i used to be a moralist at one point in my life so i can understand. there are many problems with this. when a man decides to be moral, he does good things and to an extent doesn't do wickedness. But the 1st thing to note is this; who sets the rules of right or wrong? the creature or the creator? if it has to be the creator, then we must understand His terms. You see, when an action takes place, eg helping somebody, GOd does not look at the action, rather he looks at the source of the actions. we are selfish beings, moral or not. so when i help somebody as a moralist, my ego is satisfied, i feel good with myself and i can actually boast that i am good. to me i've done something good; but before God i've done nothing, because i have acted from my own selfishness and while my action is deemed by man to be good, i've fallen into another pit - self-pride which God abhors 1Pet 5.5
the second issue with morality is that; you can't always do what is right. At one point you'd do wrong. Now GOd's requirement is so stringent that, at any point where a man does wrong, he is adjudged guilty of all. (James 2: 10) So much that, in God's eyes, soemone who kills a man is just as guilty as one who tells a lie. that is why, with God, it is not a matter of 'my good outweighs my bad therefore i shouldnt be punished'
it is a matter of 'be Holy' rather than 'be moral'. God (and GOd alone) is Holy (by nature). like i said i've lived a moral life, but while i did so, i came across people who were filled with God's Holy Spirit (who is the One who enables one to live above sin AND self) and therefore lived a Holy life and i was severely convicted (ie i felt guilt) of the shallowness of my so-called morality. You see, when you get a glimpse of God, or come in contact with people who 'carry' GOd, you'd be humbled and you'd realise that your morality is at best filthy (Isaiah 64;6) that is why people that know God and walk with Him undergo more stricter judgement because God expects more from them. and thus what constitutes 'sin' to them might not necessarily be 'sin' to the average man (eg Moses) but i can't go into this now.

now you might wonder, if GOd is so strict, who then can meet his requirements? who can be 'saved'? (Mark 10; 26-27) and the inevitable answer is NONE by his own strength or effort (Rom 3;20 Weymouth translation "For on the ground of obedience to Law no man living will be declared righteous before Him. Law simply brings a sure knowledge of sin". No man can meet God's requirements. the purpose of laws (and especially the old testament) was to show man that he NEEDS God. thus the first thing to realise is that we NEED GOd in order to live a pure life. but then, the requirements MUST be met, and that was why Jesus came. He lived a sinless life 1Pet.2.22 and therefore He met God's requirement (for the first time since creation). that was why GOd testified about him before the jews saying 'this is my beloved SOn, with him i am well pleased, Hear him (or TAKE HEED UNTO him).  

So this is where the gospel message comes in. Jesus did many things on the cross, first he took the punishment for our sins 1 Pet 3;18, 1Pet 2;24-25 (somebody had to pay; if not us, then him; so, as foreshadowed in the old testament in leviticus, he became the 'scape goat' that took our punishment) so because he took our punishment by shedding his blood, we CAN receive forgiveness of sins from GOd. Col. 1;13-14
the other thing he did was to bear our SIN. 2Cor 5;21, Rom 6;6. ie the nature that came upon every child of Adam such that we naturally do what is wrong. He did this so that, those of us that receive Him would lose our desire for what is wrong (which is the power that sin has over us) and we can then willingly choose right.
He also took upon him our SELF. (that I, I, I in our actions) ie the part of us that considers himself above others. because he lay down ourselves for us, we can lay ourSELVES unto him and can learn to deny ourself whenever we are faced with decisions.  2Cor 5:15
furthermore he filled us with His Spirit, who empowers us to live a holy life (Rom 8;4 and Rom 8;9)
the net effect of all this is to make a new creation of men on earth; Titus 2;14 men who do not sin 1John 3; 9-10 (not that they CANNOT sin, but they don't CONTINUE in sin), who do not think of themselves but lay down their lives for him 2Cor 5;15 and above all, who have  a relationship with their creator. 2Cor 5;18-20
after doing all these things, that was when he was able to say 'it is finished' because all the issues that seperated man from God before he came had been addressed.

Now, if after you one hears the gospel, which is what i just said above, God expects (like he expected from Adam in the garden) that men accept his free gift (or rather his REMEDY). but if man rejects this offer, then what he is saying is 'i don't need you' , i will do it by myself. Now GOd's standard for judgement does not change, and so that man is expected to live by God's standard (which is impossible) so that is why people get condemned.
Now for those who never heard the gospel, the standard of judgement is different and it is explained in Romans 2.

SO, what i'd say is, the gospel is not about damnation, it is the GOOD NEWS. its about SALVATION. what happens is that some uninformed men distort the message by preaching about fire and destruction thus causing people to recoil in fear. when i got to understand the gospel, i believed it and i was saved Eph.1:13, Eph 2;8-9 now i have a very much clearer understanding of life that i didn't have before but beyond that, i am a TRANSFORMED person. 2Cor 5:17
SO if you have anymore questions, let me know, or if you want to accept Him, let me know as well so i can explain further. God bless.

nb, i'd recommend you read Romans 10.

@KAG,
Ok, I know where you are coming from. And i can see where your grouses mainly lie and i'd try to focus on them to the best of my ability to explain issues.
I wont really answer directly word for word what you wrote because it'd just drag endlessly. Rather i'd try to answer the issues behind what you wrote.

Let me explain the issues i percieve you have grouses with.
First, God's omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence.
I'd try to paint a picture of God for you, and correct the image (distorted as it is) that you have of Him. As regards God's omniscience, try to see it as God being aware of what will happen before it does, while as regards his omnipotence, see it as it his; all-powerful - but understand it in this context; he has set boundaries for himself.
the first boundary is the fact that he has 'given' the earth to man. Ps. 115;16 "The heavens are the heavens of the Lord, but the earth He has given to the sons of men" Also Gen 1;26-30, Gen. 2:15
the other boundary is that he gave man a free will.

Now getting into more detail the issue of choice. God created beings with free wills. humans have free wills, angelic beings have free wills. God has his own will as well. see each person's will as a sphere of influence. every person's will can be absolute to himself and cannot be encroached upon. however you could have the two spheres coming in contact when a person chooses God or chooses satan such that God's will becomes the person's will or Satan's will becomes the person's will as the case may be. Now, here on earth spirits cannot encroach on a man's free will, but fellow men can. that is why an evil human being is of more threat to me than an evil spirit - because he is man, and can encroach on my will or sphere of influence (but that's something i don't want to get into now)
God cannot encroach in earthly affairs without a man's permission. That might seem absurd but it's the truth. That is why we pray. We pray so that we can allow God to 'encroach' in our affairs by His might. The same principle applies in witchcraft; some people pray to the devil and give him a gateway in their lives so he can operate.
However the down side is that having a choice does not exempt from consequences. No. the fact that you can choose what you want, inherently places a responsibility on you. and confers almost by definition, the need to act responsibly and choose good. You can easily understand this from human societies and human liberties, whilst we are free and can choose what we want, when we choose to do wrong, we face the consequences.

When God made man, He made him innocent, naive and placed choices before man. God put man on earth and effectively handed it over to him as man's domain. You say since God is all-powerful, why didn't he make him choose good? or since he is all-knowing, why did He make man since He knew man would fall? However what you should remember is that we are made in the image of God, each man is a world unto himself and can autonomously determine his sphere not being encroached. For God to be fair, he had to make man, and he had to make him have the ability to choose irrespective of the outcome (ie rejection). Do you think GOd was happy that man didn't choose him, of course not. that was why it greived his loving heart when man rejected Him. God is not some angry avenger out to 'get' everyone who disobeys Him. No. he is a God who is interested in fellowshipping with his creation. and the decison to choose wrong affected God just as much, if not more, than it affected man.

For a choice to be that, a choice, God's omnipotence and omniscience cannot be involved; those are God's attributes not man's. He wanted and expected the man to choose life (the tree of life) but man did not. (and we can indeed say he could not). However, where God's omnipotence and omniscience plays in is when he provides a remedy for the fall. Ordinarily, in a level playing field of justice, man is, or should be, condemned for disobeying. but God in His foreknowledge had provided a way out. And that way out was ultimately played out years later in the death and ressurection of Christ. How you would know that God could not influence man's outcome because 'his hands were tied' (by man's free will) is when you understand that at one point, GOd 'regretted that he had made man'.

So now the other thing is; fine, there is punishment, but why does it have to be 'eternal'? human beings are spirits pocessing a soul and living in a body. spirits are by nature eternal, they don't die. SO if there has to be a punishment for a spirit, it has to be an eternal punishment. A man has a long time (the space of a lifetime) to avert the eternal consequences of wrong actions and within that time frame, GOd forgives, and he forgives, and he forgives (i'm talking from both knowledge and experience). I have known His love and mercy and He does forgive, but like i said i'll say again, his forgiveness is within a time frame; and that time frame is a man's life. Once that life leaves the body, a man must face judgement.

So what i'd advise is, rather than focus on the potential for punishment and the possibilty of being lost, why not focus on the plus side and see that, there is really no reason for any body to be lost. we know the real reason why people reject God and his provision (i don't really want to get into it now). what i usually tell people "if you know what i know, you'd be in the same position i am". God is indeed love, but there are many things we have to seek understanding for, and i understand your concerns. My goal is to answer as many questions as i can when the objective is knowledge and not mere arguements.

I have to go home; i'd answer the other issues when i get home.

welcome to nairaland!! luts of luv!

KAG:
We do, however, complain when "evil", guilty men are punished indefinitely when there is a chance for repentance and rehabilitation. It seems the human system, despite its lack of omniscience, has figured out somethings the Christian God hasn't.

what exactly is your point? Is it that GOd does not forgive? you need to read the story of Paul to answer that or if that is not enough, i can tell you my own story. Or that human systems dont punish indefinitely? Do you live on this planet; ever heard of 'life imprisonment without the possibility of parole'? Your question was how a loving God can punish sinners. And i've answered you that it is because He is also a Holy and a Just God. He administers justice. Is that too hard to understand?
God has set limits within which a man can recieve forgiveness and therefore escape indefinite punishment. that limit is called 'time'. within the human time frame, a man can obtain forgiveness. but once a man dies, he has lost his capacity to ask for forgiveness, and thus brings upon himself eternal damnation. Heb.9.27 "People die once, and after that they are judged"

KAG:
Why? Why would Jesus have had to die to save "us sinful men"? Isn't the Christian God all-powerful? Also, isn't the "sacrifice" a tad redundant considering the vast majority (and we're talking billions and billions) of people will end up in hell?

why would Jesus have had to die to save sinful men? Are you actually asking a question or trying to sound wise? I've explained why Jesus had to die; if you bothered to read the scriptures i put it would help. Let me restate; man sinned, and deserved to be punished. God, who is rich in mercy, knew that man, in his own natural effort, can never live above sin, therefore he sent his son who lived a sinless life and on the cross he bore man's sin and therefore the consequences of our sin ie punishment for our sins. But because he is God, death could not hold him captive and He rose again breaking the power of sin and death and setting free from sin those who beleive in Him. Is that enough? you might need to read ROmans, Hebrews, Ephesians to understand the details. i just paraphrased the whole thing cos that's the whole christian message.
Isn't the Christian GOd all-powerful? Meaning what? I dont get your drift - do you mean he should in his 'all powerfulness' make us all holy or make us obey him or what? He made human beings, not puppets, that they should choose Him of their own free will.
Also, isn't the "sacrifice" a tad redundant considering the vast majority (and we're talking billions and billions) of people will end up in hell?
Wow. I'm baffled by this statement. Let me give an analogy, you discover a drug that cures AIDs, then when you are about to market the drug, it was brought to your notice that some people will not buy the drug. Because some people (as always) will doubt the drug's potency, will you decide not to market the drug? How illogical is that?
Morever, how many times do we have to say that God DOES NOT want anyone to perish. 2Pet3;9. Even if it was only one sinner on earth, He would still have come down to die. your statement is severely flawed; the fact that some people choose to reject him doesn't mean that He shouldnt do the right thing. it only shows that people choose to reject him without cause conjuring up reasons when there isn't any.

KAG:
If hell wasn't originally prepared for humans, then God isn't omniscient. Is that a fair assumption?

Please check your statements before you make them. Omniscient means all-knowing. It does not mean all-influencing. He knew all things. He didnt make man sin. NO. Man sinned and earned his punishment. Hell was prepared for the devil and his followers. When you reject God, you automatically become a follower of the devil and thus are consigned to the same fate. Your assumption is baseless.

KAG:
I most certainly do not understand. I hope this oesn't come across as hostile or anything, but your response did not really answer my question.

I hope i'm wrong but reading your post, I don't really think you want answers, you seem to want arguments. My answer was clear enough and your responses were not even related to what i wrote. I dont know your beleifs or convictions so i dont know where you are coming from mentally; i dont give myself to irrelevant arguments. so if you really are interested in gaining knowledge, ask relevant questions. maybe you can let me know what your perspective is so i can answer more pointedly. cheers

@nferyn,
i read a few lines cos i dont have time and sincerely i had to laugh at the ludicrousness of the writeup and the folly of the person who wrote this. i guess he invented up in his mind his own distorted idea of Jesus and thought he had a good case. Except it is meant to be comedy, in which case i got a good laugh at the writer's expense, the write up is crammed full with biases, inconsistencies and falsehoods stemming from an infantile understanding of christianity at best.

If you know Jesus Christ at all, you'd know He wouldn't talk that way nor say those things. What you should know is that we're not talking about some dead being like Socrates, we're talking of the risen Lord, whom we behold and relate with everyday (2Cor 3:18, 1Jn1:3).

I find it queer though, that you can take sides with Socrates, a mere human, who is dead, against the archbishop of your soul (of course you don't believe that). And then again, since Jesus didn't exist (like you say) why bother about him?

However, if this sums up your grouses with the Judeo-Christian God and the doctrine of Christ, and gives vent to your reasons for not beleiving, then we can answer you later on.
For now i've got to get to work.

KAG:
Now that we've established that hell is like a lake of fire or something, and, I'm assuming, people will be cast there for like eternity, can somebody explain how that doesn't contradict the idea of love, especially in an apparently omniscient being?

Just a brief answer cos i'm past my bedtime. God is just, He is a God of justice, therefore he will not leave the guilty unpunished. In our human systems we have courts and all that, and we do not complain about why evil, guilty men need to be punished by a prison sentence.

However, that is a small part of the story, the greater part of the story is that in Rom 3: 23 -26 and Eph. 2:1-7. In the former verse, Jesus, who was sinless, was shown to have died as a propitiation for us sinful men, and took upon himself our sin (2Cor 5: 21, Isaiah 53:6) and thus the punishment we deserve, so that we who have beleived in him are justified and declared righteous and free from guilt and condemnation. Also, see John 3:16.
So although God is Love and full of mercy, He is also a God of Justice.

God has done so much for us in Christ Jesus that the question of hell should not even arise if we respond properly to the gospel message in faith and obedient acceptance of his gift of grace. It is not God's will that any man should perish (2Pet 2:9, John 3:17). Hell was not originally prepared for man but for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41) However, people who reject God's salvation declare themselves enemies of God and willingly remain followers of the devil thereby earning the same punishment (John 3: 18 - 21, Eph. 2:1-7)

Hope you understand. Pray you accept His gracious gift of life. Cheers.

eko4show:
has anyone tried left-over eba and hot ila-alasepo the following morning?

that's the very bomb!

KAG:
Dude, take up with the people that decided to break the rules of prophesying (never even give a hint of exactness. That way, given enough time, future generations can adapt your words to their time). They decided to include things like: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." not knowing that not only would their generation pass away, but hundreds would as well. Just as well they aren't aware, eh?

men, you have no clue. so you think some people sat down and decided on what to include and not include so future generatios can 'adapt your words to their time'!!??!
and please, there is a lot of 'exactness' in Biblical prophecy. in fact, many times so exact that the odds of them happening are at best impossible. the Holy Spirit who inspired the scriptures was not trying to be 'safe' when the old testament prophecies were made. Cheers and i really hope and pray you find Him one day.

KAG:
I'm pretty certain that no God prophesied the coming of any Christs or Messiahs.

lol, i'm 'pretty certain' that you either don't know what you're saying or you don't want to acknowledge the truth. you would have made a better argument by saying (like the jews claim) that the christ has not come - which, of course, is untrue. Rather than making an uninformed statement that no God prophesied the 'coming of any Christ'. maybe we're talking about different 'gods' but I am talking about the Judeo-Christian GOd.
the coming of the messiah has been prophesied all through the jewish old testament - even since the incidence of the fall. i don't really have time now to list you all the scriptures; if you need it i can do that later.
Christ indeed came in fulfilment of prophesy Matt 1:22-23

KAG:
Dude, take up with the people that decided to break the rules of prophesying (never even give a hint of exactness. That way, given enough time, future generations can adapt your words to their time). They decided to include things like: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." not knowing that not only would their generation pass away, but hundreds would as well. Just as well they aren't aware, eh?

Errrh,  sorry but may i let you know that you don't have any idea what that verse was talking about? If you don't believe that the Scriptures are the inspired word of God and are infallible, it would surprise no one that you can't understand it and would interpret it to mean something else. So please next time don't even try.

Matt. 16.28, Mk. 9:1, Luke 9.27
in the first verse it says, "there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" In all the three books where this is quoted, it is in the context of transfiguration. the next verse He takes 3 of them and takes them up to a mountain and he is transfigured before them showing them his glory. Peter later refers to this in 2Pet.1.16-18
"For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty" (emphasis mine). This experience was a type of his second coming as they witnessed his majesty and glory.
However the greater meaning of the verse is seen in the references in Mark and Luke where it becomes clear that he was referring to the setting up of His Kingdom on earth when the Holy Spirit was poured out after the ressurection. This took place on pentecost and by God's grace the kingdom has been growing ever since. The last time i checked some 11 of them witnessed that event (except for Judas)

Matt 24:32-34
“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away
its very clear - when this verse is read in context - what it means. when the signs of the fig tree appear, you can tell what is about to happen ie that summer is near. Likewise, when you begin to see the signs of the last days you can tell that His coming is near. Thus, the generation that sees these signs take place will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled.

May GOd open your eyes so that you can know the TRUTH. Jesus died to save you from your sins and yourself. God bless.

@topic, Yes He is coming back. Do not lose heart, (read 1st and 2nd Thesalonians)

@doubters,
it is no wonder that some people will refuse to heed the TRUTH. the same bible you quoted from above has explained in 2Pet.3.9 that 'God is not slack in fulfilling his promise',  but of course you have hardened your heart and refuse to heed

Is it not the same GOd who prophesised the first coming of Christ as the Messiah? Sure He is. And definitely He will fulfil His word in His time. No one knows the day or the hour, but one thing we know, we are not in the dark lest the Day come upon us as a surprise. but for those in the dark,,,,,He will come as a theif in the night (ie unexpectedly)

Many things have been prophesised to take place first before He comes. they have already started taking place, first the jews were restored to Isreal, now we see before our eyes as many of the other prophesies in Matt 24 and other scriptures are being fulfilled.

And of course we say again with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ: "Behold I come quickly and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to His work"
Blessed are those who long for His appearing. Come Lord Jesus!!

many times i just wonder about people, but then i know why

the few times i decide to eat in the mornings, i make do with cereal, eggs and beef or turkey sandwich.

men, i miss ogi and akara

@ donnie,
i didnt play the video cos i wasnt interested. just wanted to make some responses to your comments.

we live in the end times, and if there was anytime for discernment, it is now. the bible has really warned about these times that, without being careful, even the very elect would be deceived. so we ought to 'take heed lest any man deceive' us.

one cant be too careful in trying to understand people like this. you dont even need to do much searching, just google up his name and look, not at the critics, but at his own quotes. just reading his quotes for a while, it wouldnt take long for anyone with any iota of biblical knowledge to realise that this guy does not know anything about the TRUTH.

Now i dont really care about his miracles, ie whether they are genuine or not, cos that doesnt change anything. what i care about is the man and his doctrine and if you examine that it'd be clear that he is not of us.
SO please dont be too quick to assume things are Ok, if anything we cant be too careful especially in these times.

i hope you'd do a little more searching before you comment again, and if you do so and feel there's nothing wrong, then we can talk further.

babyosisi:
I have told my younger cousins in naija that anyman that proposes marriage from here,I will personally hunt him down and investigate him to make sure he is what he says he is.
I've heard too many horror stories.
Some of these men have no marriage intentions whatsoever,they just need sleeping mates while on vacation,that is pathetic.

abeg easy on us oh, lol. some of us no get choose,
no be every naija guy wey dey here be runz man, and again, for a guy to leave oyinbo people and black americans and say he wants to marry someone back in naija, to an extent it shows that that guy sees and values some things in naija girls that western ladies lack.

but seriously though, distance can really affect relationships and its not really feasible to date someone over a long distance. however, its not impossible.

i think the turning point or the critical point in this guy's story was his being able to get a gun in his state of mind. he had been profiled and reported to police and yet, he was able to pass all the necessary background checks to get a gun.
one has to wonder what background checking they did. and again, why doesnt a court prononcement like the one that said the guy is a threat to himself and others (paraphrased) be a rate limiting step against the guy having acess to guns.

however, its easy to look back with hindsight and see all the flaws. i hope however that positive things could be learnt from this experience to prevent future occurences.

davidylan:
yes, thanks. found the clips on MSNBC. Just confirmed my suspicions that the whole "rage" was all about being rejected by women!

its not really that straightforward. its hard to tell what exactly the guy was referring to. Definitely women were a part of it, considering that he stalked them and all, but obviously this was a guy who seemed not to have ever experienced genuine love in his life. i heard he was abused; i don't know how true that is, but his behaviour fits that profile.
ultimately though, what is really clear is that the guy was demon pocessed. watching tv, its obvious that western minds can't understand that or will refuse to acknowledge it, but hey this guy was packed full  with demons of rage and suicide and murder

now we know what the guy was doing between the two shootings; he was preparing his 'manifesto' or press release. its so hard to imagine what kind of evil and anger this guy was harboring

yep, the guy was an asian, probably international, student.

i really wonder why the school didnt act on time after the first incidence either to close down the school or to send word out to people. effectively that decision or indecision was the difference between 2 people and 33 people dead.

Today there was another shooting rampage in an american school. THis time it was in Virginia tech and 32 people were killed. the gunman also commited suicide.
As at the time i left home this morning it was 1 person dead. i came back not long ago to discover the death toll at 32. it was a shocker to see the death toll and my heart really grieves for the families of those who lost their lives. its really heart-breaking.
this massacre is now the deadliest in american school history. many people are still in critical-condition and the death toll could rise.

what do we think is causing all these shootings and eruptions of violence?
Could it be attributed to violent video games and movies or what?
what can be done to curb them? after the columbine shootings there was a lot of outcry against it, yet it has refused to stop.
at this rate, is any school safe?
You guys thoughts are welcome.

i find it very hard to understand how we Africans complain about how whites discriminate against us and yet we do not see anything wrong in discriminating against our fellow Africans.
In this day and age, with all the 'progress' we have made, some people still consider their own brothers to be inferior to them? its so very sad.

saintchux:
It is too unfortunate, but there is nothing w can do.

This makes no sense. if we, in our generation, say there is nothing we can do and just continue to perpetuate this evil of discrimination, when will the much needed change come about.

@poster, if you actually see your husband-to-be as an outcast, then there is a problem and i find it hard to see how that marriage can work. you yourself need to have a change of heart and realize that we are all equal and see him as you see any other human being before you can go ahead to convince your family that its wrong to discriminate.

i really wonder when we'll throw away all these barbaric traditions and notions.

men, what kind of country is this?

Only God knows where this country is headed

man, u got some good advice up there.
if u really want to change and you've tried but its hard based on the environment, then, if you value your life very much, leave that place. That's the same thing Lot had to do.
then get on your knees and seek Baba's forgiveness.
furthermore, you can go seem some senior people in a good church for some good counsel. i mean people who wont try to tear you down but will help you to get back on your feet.
God help you!

lets not make this a tribal issue please, its inconsequential. nobody cares about tribes, all that matters is that we are all nigerians.
personally i don't think the government is doing enough to curb this menace. many of these scammers don't do it from their homes, they do it from public places (cafes). that should make it less difficult to crack down on the scams.

while i don't really like the way our image has gone down the drain - there is such a huge stereotype here in the US about nigerians - i am happy that its out in the open, now there should be a lot of pressure on the govt and all concerned nigerians to end this menace.

sincerely, this thing is not new, it did not start with internet scams, nigerians have been duping people for a long time; we haven't just done anything about it. i really hope this makes it become a top agenda for the govt and everyone to do something about.

God have mercy on that (or let me say our) country.

@nferyn,

That is what you call a theory?
Why? Because its not acceptable to you, its not worth propounding? i'm wrong for calling it a theory though. its a fact; in the proper time you'd know the truth of that statement.

As far as science is concerned, you're absolutely right. Science can only deal with the natural, by necessity. The scientific enterprise implies methodological naturalism; it presupposes the regularity and lawfulness of nature, as this is necessary to make predictions. The supernatural on the other hand can neither be investigated nor understood, as it lacks that regularity and lawfulness. By calling something supernatural (even though there is no reason to do so), you're putting it out of the reach of scientific investigation and shield it from inquiry. It's the epithetome of organised and institutionalised ignorance.
i must let you know that, in all sincerity, YOU are the one that is ignorant in not knowing that there is the supernatural. the books by Dawkins and others that you've been reading have, rather than enlighten, made you more ignorant of realities that are beyond your scope (because all you do is reject anything that is beyond your scope) i don't want to mention any scripture but please indulge me; it is the ignorance you are manifesting that made the Bible say; 'the fool says in his heart, there is no God'. fact is, there are many things beyond the physical realm. in fact, the physical realm is less real than the spiritual, the least of the reasons, the mere fact that the physical is governed by space and time, concepts which are limited to the physical and do not exist in the supernatural. space and time are finite, but the supernatural is infinite.

The scientific method explicitly tries to exclude these human perception and interpretation biases and their successes can only be achieved through a rigorous application of rationality
i don't think you know what you are talking about. what is the scientific process? i'll focus mainly on the field of biology; you do some reading (gathering of premises) you make a hypothesis and then you try to prove your hypothesis via experiments by making deductions and interpretations based on observations you make that seem to align with your hypothesis (which is a form of bias in the least sense). In case you didnt know, you only need to attend a reputable scientific journal club for one week and it wont take you long to discover that many of the inferences made in scientific experiments (even those published in top journals like science and nature) are based on inconclusive evidence, biased information (in order to be able to publish a paper), and many other inconsistencies. its only if you're insincere or just unaware of the facts that you'd deny this assertion. many times, an assertion may be accepted as true based on 'evidence' presented this year only for it to be refuted the following year based on 'new evidence'. but the flaw of inconsistency isnt the only flaw in science, many times, especially in biology there is the flaw of never being able to know, because we'd never have the right techniques nor proper resolution (in terms of equipments) to make the right deductions.
all i'm trying to say is; don't rate the scientific process too highly. like most things human, it has many flaws and it takes someone on the inside to know this. (these flaws are especially obvious in biology unlike in technology because technology merely involves application of scientific principles whereas biology tries to understand those principles that have been used to create and sustain life)

This has nothing to do with rationality but rather with a lack of knowledge or understanding. Flying wasn't less rational then than it is today; facts don't change because our knowledge and understanding of these facts change. I think it was Douglas Adams that said the any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic for those not possessing it. That doesn't mean that there is magic at work though. I guess you don't fully understand what rationality is. It is not a result but rather a method.
rather YOU don't understand my argument. let me help you further. the METHOD of rationality is flawed because it makes use of the human mind which is basically flawed because it can only consider probable what it finds believable based on current understanding. one's 'rationality' is constrained by his/her level of knowledge. i can't make it anymore clearer. let me give you an example. the chemiosmotic theory was propounded by Peter Mitchel in 1961. at the time, he was debunked as inconsequential and 'illogical' based on their current understanding. it took a long while before others were able to provide evidence (and thus new premises) to prove him right and debunk what was priorly held to be true. unlike what you said, in science, 'facts' (i mean what is scientifically accepted as true) are constantly changing depending on available evidence. in all reality, facts don't change, but scientific facts are always being modified. i must ask you if you are a scientist and what field you are in so i can understand why you had a problem with this.
thus like i said, until all the necessary premises for educated guesses (hypothesis) of that which is probable is available to science, it can't be fully rational, the method is flawed because the minds involved have insufficient premises to predict what can be true and what can't be true. things that are in reality probable and true will keep on being thought to be improbable and thus 'illogical' until new premises are provided that will allow for new understanding of what is 'rational'. do you get it? in biology, many theories havent even been propounded yet because there is insufficient literature available in such fields to make hypotheses not to talk of designing experiments to verify them. the scientific process in biology is in its infancy!!

The ever shrinking God-of-the-gaps.
this phrase is all yours, its just a way for your spiritually uneducated mind to 'grasp' the concept of God. if you knew GOd like i do, you'd know he's the God of the universe, he's completely awesome, and doesn't need any gaps to accomodate Him.

And that knowledge is based on what facts exactly? Or is it rather based on your personal feelings and thoughts?
there are spiritual facts, but you are spiritually ignorant. that is why i said it is beyond you. if you really want to know God and not just trying to make an arguement we can talk about them; but then you don't believe in God so why try to know Him

Why then is your truth more valuable than theirs and how else can you compare them than through the application of rational thought?
contrary to what you think, people of faith go through a lot of scrutiny. ie they question things. personally i was born into the roman catholic faith, i had to question many of the false assertions and beliefs and discovered them to be untrue and i forsook that sect. i eventually found the right path, and i've since subjected it to the proper scrutiny and found it overwhelmingly true. of course, i did not use test tubes to verify the path i now follow though, lol

How do you know it's a Him and not a Her? 
i know you're joking. you might have as well said 'it'. God is neither male nor female (another thing your mind cannot grasp because of its 'flaws' lol) the english language is very sex-conscious, in my native language i would have used the term 'o' which does not imply or assume a gender.

the baseline;
sincerely i must let you know that there are many things you do not know. i am not just some uneducated religious bigot who has had his mind stuffed down with hallucinations (i'm sure you think i am though); i'm a medical doctor turned molecular biologist. i am not anti-science, however i am not ignorant enough to think that science can explain everything. i am deeply involved in science so i know its many limitations. i have not raised many issues here like good and evil and morality and death and the beginning and conscience etc. these are issues that cannot be explained by science.
i have been on the wrong path before (in the catholic religious institution) before i found it baseless and, to use your term, 'irrational'. the issue of God is not a matter of gaps like you claim but a matter of dimensions or realms. i sincerely hope that you'd be curious enough to enquire why a scientist can believe what i believe rather than just, uninformedly, conclude that i have to be deluded.  i am not here to propound arguments and trade words because its totally not beneficial to me, you can't change my mind about what i know (spiritually) and if i wouldnt be able to change yours then there's no use. i really hope that you'd be willing to look for understanding on the proper approach to take in verifying spiritual or supernatural matters, rather than making demands based on your limited understanding on what your requirements will be for accepting a deity. the scientific process involves making the right approaches (and techniques); you wont try to examine the cristae in the mitochondrion by using a light microscope. neither can you try to understand God by making use of scientific techniques. God will not stoop down to your own terms, no. He is God, and HE has his own terms. However, not to sound pompous or concieted, if you knew what i know, you wont be making the statements you are making.
I believe in Jesus, He saved me and i live a blissful life in fellowship with Him. i really hope one day you find Him one day. I'd be praying for you. cheers!

dont really know but this sounds phony to me. you said you didnt apply for the job - its very unlikely they'd offer you an employment without you applying. and, i dont think any company will require you to pay for a traineeship. i'd advise you to really check things out, cos its most likely a fraud.

congrats!

congrats!

@nferyn,
the theory of creation is that God made everything as it is, including you! sciene does not acknowlegde anything beyond the physical realm so its not hard to see why it rejects such an assertion.

when i said 'God exists and that does not change anything' i was not trying to sound 'rational' perhaps i should have made that clear. that would seem stupid to you but let me explain. What is rationality? rationality is just accepting things to be true based on prior understanding of what is true or what is known. as a person, i cannot afford to base all my judgements on rationality. many things have not been able to be explained and more can't be explained. so it will be impossible to think rationally about something of which there is no (present) premise. i don't know if you understand me. flying as we do today was irrational 150 years ago, because they didnt have the right premises. and believe me they were not stupid for considering it irrational.  until premises continue to be made, rationality will continue to be modified. the only time rationality can be fully 'right' is when science knows everything and is omniscient. and that would never happen. so in my opinion science can never dictate to me what rational thinking constitutes, because it does not understand my premises. many discoveries in science usually start out being considered 'irrational' before evidence is found that exonorates it. i don't need to base my beliefs on science that does not acknowledge what it does not have present evidence for (many times even when the assertion is true).

so when i make statements i'm not just trying to be 'rational'. I believe that God is omniscient, my human mind cannot fathom many things, but i know that i'm constantly increasing in knowledge and the more i know the more 'rational' i become. so let me restate; i know God because i relate with Him. that may sound 'illogical' to you but i've explained why. i have 'premises' for believing in God, i acted on them and now i know them to be true.

there is a whole realm of knowledge and understanding that is totally oblivious to you (and am not trying to be mean, i'm just telling you what i know)

thus, you're right that i did not first come to know God via 'rational' thinking. No. Neither was it via 'emotional or sloppy thinking' (i wonder what that is). i came to know him by spiritual revelation (and i can assure you, you don't know what that means ). God is Spirit, and those who know him, know him in the spirit. there is no scientific evidence for the spiritual, it is impossible for science to provide 'evidence' for something ethereal. I've said it before, God is not physical. its not very hard to see why you don't believe, you've chosen to take a path through which it is impossible to know Him, its like looking for polar bears in the tropics, he requires faith (ie belief) as the path to knowing Him. i know you would question why it has to be by faith but there are reasons for that which i can't go into now. since you can't believe something you don't have physical evidence for, i can assure you it would be very hard for you to find Him. He hides Himself from people who believe and seek not to talk of one who doesnt Prov 25.2, 1Pet. 4.18, Ps. 104.2

there are many things you don't know but sincerely i hope you find Him one day, because He is very REAL. cheers!