₦airaland Forum

@study,
sorry my reply is rather late.
i'm sorry if i came out a little strong in my response; i hope you understand that i had to toe a thin line between deliberate peddling of falsehood and a sincere misinterpretation. Obviously, you fall into the latter bracket.
i just want to put a few words as regards this quote from your post;

I must tell you the spirit kept leading me to things that Paul said that don't line up with Christ.  I beleive now if this had been satan speking to me, he would not be demanding, and I mean demanding me, by the spirit, to strictly adhere to Jesus.  I beleive if satan was the spirit guiding me I would be trying to discredit Jesus not Paul.

first, like i showed in my detailed responses to ypu, there is NOTHING Paul said that contradicts or failed to line up with what Christ taught. If anything, Paul went into a lot of detail and depth in his teachings, whilst Jesus didn't do so, for reasons i'd quote later on. So, if that spirit said Paul contradicts Christ, then, if anything it is a lying spirit, because it is not true that Paul said anything contrary to what christ taught.
Second, God's spirit does not DEMAND us to do anything, at least not in the sense that you have put it there; the Holy spirit is a gentle spirit, he makes his mind known to our spirits and longs for us to obey; he does not DEMAND us for anything.
third, Satan CAN tell you to line up with only Jesus' words; in so doing he can lead you to distrust the rest of the scriptures; and by so doing, shortchange you from the totality of GOd's words. Like you yourself already opined earlier, satan will not come straight at you with falsehood, No. He'd come with part-truths, just what he was leading you to do, and cause you to reject other truths in the scriptures.

Now, to buttress this issue let me mention this scripture John 16;12;
“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."
Jesus didn't say all that there was to be said, neither did he teach all that there was to be taught. Why? because the disciples could not understand or 'bear' all he had to say at that point, simply because they did not have the spirit of God flowing from within them. Even concerning what he said, they did not understand many things, and it was after his death and ressurection that the began to understand what he had said and what had been written. For example, John 12;16
"These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him"
Having said that; we can now come to the early church and see what obtained;
Acts. 2;42
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."
the believers devoted themselves to the apostle's teaching. You can not call yourself a christian and say you will only heed the words of Jesus; you have to heed the word of his messengers - as long as they do not contradict what Jesus taught, the same thing which i have shown in my earlier post about Paul, his words did not contradict the words of the Lord.
Now coming to the Paul, Paul had a special ministry in the Lord's agenda; and that was to take the gospel to the gentiles. Earstwhile, the other apostles tarried in Jerusalem, preaching mainly to the jews. But the Lord chose Paul to be a bridge between the jews and the gentiles in terms of the gospel; that was why his ministry was so prominent and his role in the new testament is so huge. hear what Jesus himself says about Paul as recorded by Luke in Acts. 9;15;
""Go," replied the Lord; "he is a chosen instrument of Mine to carry My name to the Gentiles and to kings and to the descendants of Israel."
this was not adressed to Paul, it was addressed to Ananias, and it was the Lord himself testifying about Paul. He was a chosen instrument by the Lord to the gentiles and he is clearly an apostle appointed by the Lord. There is no way in which he is a false prophet; and any spirit that tries to say that such a special vessel of the Lord is a false prophet is not the spirit of God.

now, as written in 2Tim.3;16, 'all scripture is inspired by God'. there is no isolation, all the apostles spoke under the inspiration of the Holy spirit, and their words are important and we must take heed to them. You cant read the scriptures in isolation; there is no internal conflict in scripture. if there is an apparent conflict it only calls for you to look closer and study more to see the point that the Lord is trying to make. I don't want to go into it now but i can bring many scriptures where it seems the Lord himself contradicted himself; but on closer study you'd realise that He did not.
Please do not entertain those thoughts at all and give no place to them because they are unfounded. Paul spoke in the scriptures under the inspiration of the Holy spirit and i'd show you now that when he did not, he clearly stated it. See 1Cor7;12
"But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her"
Also verse 25,
"Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy."
and then verse 40,
"But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have the Spirit of God"
I urge you to study that whole chapter to understand what i'm saying and to touch the spirit of this man. when he didn't have a clear instruction from the Lord he said so; but even then, he made his judgement, not as an ordinary man, but as a spiritual man having the mind of christ and you will see that the judgement of the man himself cannot be washed aside, because it is along with the principles of christ even though it is not an express command.
As he goes on to explain in 1Cor. 2;15,16;
"15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
     that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ."
I hope you get an understanding of that scripture; the words of the apostles came by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit; the holy spirit cannot antagonize the Lord; the Lord did not say all there was to be said, the gospels were written 'that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name'.(John 20;31). they were not written by Jesus Christ himself, but by his apostles; and the Spirit of God also spoke through the apostles as he made known to them the mystery of Christ. John went ahead to say in 1John1;3 "we proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."
Indeed, i think 2Chron. 20;20b addresses this very succintly;
"Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem! Believe in Jehovah your God, and ye shall be established; believe his prophets, and ye shall prosper!"

NB. if you still have any 'issues' about the teachings of Paul, kindly mention them, or you can also shoot me an email. Cheers.

@dru,
thank YOU. i just couldnt stand the hypocrisy with which he makes use of the bible to propagate falsehood.
and sincerely, i'm not usually this patient ; most times i just don't have the time.
cheers.

Study:
Paul was a Jew, moreover Paul was even a Pharisee, One of the elders of the Jewish church. He was the man under orders from the Jewish elders to go about the country imprisoning and killing Christians. He was not Roman as you say. He was held in "sort of" captivity in Rome to protect him from Jews that wanted to kill him. He was aided by his followers to escape the death squad that had been charged to kill him. If you ever read yoour Bible you will see how they had to lower him over the walls of the city in a basket to save his life. Then he was taken to Rome by the Pagan Roman authority so that he could form the Roman Catholic Church while under their protection.
If he had been a true man of God then he could have simply "walked out of the midst" of those whose set out to kill him, just as Jesus had done many times before. Because he had the omnipotent power of God with HIM, he did not have to rely on his misguided followers to save his life.

To correct some more fallacies;
First, Paul was not 'one of the elders of the Jewish church'. If you're referring to being a part of the Pharisees, yes. But they are not a church.
Second, Paul was both a Jew AND a Roman, in the same way a person in our day can be both a Nigerian and an American. He had roman citizenship (Acts 22;25 -29, Acts.23;27)
Third, after he escaped from Damascus via the basket, he did not go to Rome, but returned to Jerusalem, from whence he went to Tarsus. (Acts.9;26-30)
Fourth, he did not form the roman catholic church. what nonsense talk is that? where is your evidence? what are your sources?
Fifth, what makes a man of God is not how one escapes from hardship but by one's fruit. Stephen was killed by the persecutors, does that stop him from being a man of God? James was murdered by Herod; does that make him a false prophet? what nonsense!
Lastly, i sincerely hope that you would really study that same bible that you have distorted in order to brainwash and delude yourself, rather than being so puffed up as to think that you alone know better than generations of christians who have been blessed by and through the ministry of that great servant of God named Paul. If you don't understand something written in the scriptures, pray and ask God to grant you understanding; Paul's prayer in Eph. 1;17 would be helpful. but beyond that, i think you need to repent of your error and truely accept Christ as your Lord and saviour. Cheers.

Continued.

THE LORD TELLS US:
Matthew 7:  1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
THE PSALMIST CONFIRMS:
Ps 94: 1 O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. 2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud.
PAUL TELLS US:
1 Cor 6: 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

Again, as you didn't offer your own thougts here, i'd just quote a scripture to dismiss what your insinuations and explain what the bible teaches. Matt. 19;28
"And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Luke 22;30
"that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
And just in case you think that verse refers only to the apostles, here is a reference to the church by the Lord himself, Here's Rev. 2;26 -27;
"'And to him who overcomes and obeys My commands to the very end, I will give authority over the nations of the earth. And he shall be their shepherd, ruling them with a rod of iron, just as earthenware jars are broken to pieces; and his power over them shall be like that which I Myself have received from My Father;" 
Again Rev. 3;21
"'To him who overcomes I will give the privilege of sitting down with Me on My throne, as I also have overcome and have sat down with My Father on His throne"
Indeed, the saints shall judge the earth.

Of course, the proper understanding of the Lord's statement lies in Matt. 7;5; where he says "you hypocrite". Jesus was talking about HYPOCRISY and having things in proper order of priority. FIRST, remove the log in your eye, THEN, you will SEE CLEARLY to remove the spec in another's eye. He wasn't saying you shouldn't remove the spec in the other person's eye; he was just saying that you should MAKE SURE THERE IS NO LOG IN YOUR OWN EYE before you do so. This is the very same thing Paul teaches and expalins in 2Cor 10;6 "and being in readiness to avenge all disobedience, when your obedience shall be made full" NOT before!

PAUL TELLS US:
1 Tim 1 3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
Gal 1: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed
                                              ( Who’s doctrine? )

I hope it is becoming pretty obvious now why Paul, (and not just Paul but Peter and Jude and John) had to made those statements in the Bible. I don't think i need to spell it out to you. And yes, by His grace we are always on guard and will continue to be.

PAUL SAYS:
2 Tim 4: 14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:                                                          AND
1 Tim 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
   (How does a man deliver another man to Satan, [that they may learn not to  blaspheme] ?)
Again reading 2 Thes 1: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
                                 I ask, what did Paul do here?    Explain what the spirit tells you.

I don't think anything needs be said about the the statement in verse 14; vengeance is the Lord's. HE is the one who will repay evil men according to their works (Rev. 22;12)
First, let me quote a statement of Paul to set things in context 2Cor.10;8;
"If, however, I were to boast more loudly of our Apostolic authority, which the Lord has given us that we may build you up, not pull you down, I should have no reason to feel ashamed." Paul, being an apostle, had spiritual authority in the church; but like he stated, it is not an authority to pull down but to build up.
Now to buttress the point, a quote in 1Cor. 5;5
"I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
In his second epistle to the corinthians in verse 2;5 - 11, Paul, remembering the earlier injunction then follows up to see what progress the sinner has made;
"But if any has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not to me, but in some degree—in order not to say too much—to all of you. 6 Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority, 7 so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For to this end also I wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes."
Can you see the result of being handed over to Satan? Just like the other verse i quoted from Paul, it is for the good of the person.

the sinner had caused sorrow to the whole church, and his case was similar to what Jesus addressed in Matt.18;15 -20. i'd quote just verse 17 for space;
"And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican" what does that verse mean?
Again Matt. 5;25 -26
"“Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 “Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent."
who is the judge? who is the officer? who handed him over? Can a man hand another man over to the judge? when a man hands over another man to the judge, can the judge not hand over the opponent to the officer? what do you understand by that parable?
Let me try to help you further. Luke 22; 31 -34;
"“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; 32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” 33 But he said to Him, “Lord, with You I am ready to go both to prison and to death!” 34 And He said, “I say to you, Peter, the rooster will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know Me.”
this is the Lord talking. Satan asked permission to sift Peter. what was the Lord's response? Did he say NO? or did he rather say, i have prayed for you 'that your faith may not fail' (whilst you are under the sifting)?
Indeed, Satan's sifting does happen to the Lord's people for a season. but then, when such a one, has 'turned again' he is strengthened, and able to strengthen others going through the same trial.

I don't know what Spirit is talking to you, but the one that speaks to me tells me to beware of people like you. It was people like you that made Peter warn us in 2Pet.3;15 - 16
"15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
The apostle Peter himself testified of Paul, and in the same breath warned against such nonsense as you have opined. I really don't know where this idea came into your head from, but i hope that God would grant it to you to repent and be restored to the right path.

Paul ordained himself an Apostle, How much clout does that really carry?  He saw fit to include himself into a group of men that were hand picked by Jesus, HOW RUDE!!!  And then he goes about the countryside contradicting the word of Christ, as I have plainly showed you by putting scriptures taken right out of the Bible in front of your face!

In all my talk, i've not even mentioned the book of acts written by Luke, who also wrote the gospel according to Luke. In it, the bible records the conversion of Paul and documented the story of Paul, not in first person, but in a third person narrative. Perhaps, you'd venture as to say Luke is also a co-conspirator with the false prophet Paul.

I ask you, of the cotradictions listed above, do you follow the word of Christ, or the words of Paul??   Simple question, try not to veer onto a rant about some other topic.  Just answer the question.

I would, again, just quote the scriptures 1Cor.11;1;
"Be imitators of me, in so far as I in turn am an imitator of Christ."

And to put things in proper balance, in the words of that humble apostle Paul himself, 1Cor.3;5-11;
"5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

I really do hope that, rather than deliberately propagating and fostering a false teaching, you are sincerely wrong. if it is the latter, i can only pray for you that God will show you the light. If however it is the former, there are enough scriptures in the bible that applies, so i need not say more but rather rest my case.

@study,
i've come across a lot of errors and fallacies on the web and elsewhere, but i must admit; yours is totally new. its a pity.
however, i take it that by the name you make use of, you are a reasonable person. so here goes.

THE LORD TELLS US:
Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 18: 21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Luke 6: 29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

THE PSALMIST CONFIRMS:
Ps 94: 1 O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. 2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud.
BUT PAUL TELLS US:
2 Thes 1: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
PAUL CONTRADICTS HIMSELF ALSO:
1 Thes 5: 15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

the answer to your seeming contradiction stares right at you in the face; "seeing that it is a righteous thing with God" what is Paul trying to teach? vengeance is of GOD and not of man. Just what the Psalmist you quoted stated. God is a JUST God, and as such, in his justice and righteousness, evil men will not go unpunished.  And to buttress the point of vengeance being of God, he then warns the thesalonians not to 'render evil for evil unto any man'. That was not the only places he taught that; he also told the romans, Rom. 12;14 -21. i will only quote verses 17- 19 here for space;
"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord."
Again, can you see Paul quoting the very same verse you quoted?

PAUL WRESTLES WITH THE SIN IN HIM THAT HE CAN’T SEEM TO CONTROL
Romans 7: 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
BUT PAUL ALSO SAYS:
Romans 6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?          AND
Romans 6: 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

as you didn't make any statements here i don't know what to talk to you about this. Have you 'controlled' the sin in you? Have you sinned? Do you sin? Do you have any idea in the least what Paul was talking about in Romans 7? thank GOd Paul wrote Romans 7, because the bible wouldn't have been complete without it. Do you even know what the message in Romans 7 is all about? Have you read it up until chapter 8? can you contrast Romans 8 and romans 7 to appreciate the depths of teaching contained there?

THE LORD TELLS US:
Math 5: 14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 16: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Rev 2: 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
BUT PAUL TELLS US:
Eph 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
BROTHER JAMES BEGS TO DIFFER:
James 2: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

again, what is your point here? that Paul does not teach that we are the light of the world? i think someone in all his 'study' never came across Eph. 5;8 -14. Again, for space, i will quote only verse 8
"for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light"
And another scripture; 1Thess. 5; 4-5;
"But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;"
For more study, you need to see 2Cor. 4;4-6, 2Cor. 6;14, Col. 1;12, and so on.

Or that Paul did not teach that our good works should be seen to men? Maybe you need to see these scriptures -
1Tim. 6;18 "Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share"
Tit.3;14 "And let our's also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful."
Eph. 2;10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them"
TIt.2;14 "who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all lawlessness, and purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous for good works"
Indeed the crux of Paul's teaching on faith and works as regards salvation is expressed in this verse in Titus 3;18;
"The word is faithful, and I desire that thou insist strenuously on these things, that they who have believed God may take care to pay diligent attention to good works. These things are good and profitable to men."
Good works are good and profitable for those 'who have believed in God' through Jesus Christ. All other works a man does outside of christ constitutes dead works.
see also; 1Tim.2;9-10, 1Tim.5;10, 1Tim.5;25, Titus. 2;7, 2Cor. 9;8, and so on.

I noticed you also quoted Christ as saying he will reward every man 'according to his works'. the same thing Paul also teaches in 2Cor. 5;10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad"

Now having said all that, to explain the context of Paul's statement in Eph. 2;9. As i have shown above, Paul clearly teaches that good works are necessary for reward. Good works can never lead one to salvation. Go and study Mark 10; 17 -21. the rich man was full of good works, yet Jesus raised the bar when it came to obtaining salvation by asking him to sell all his pocessions, and the man could not keep it. Eventually Jesus made this pivotal stament in Mark 10;27
"26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, “Then who can be saved?” 27 Looking at them, Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not [/color]with God; for all things are possible with God.”
the disciples asked, 'who can be saved'? and he answered by saying 'with man, salvation is impossible, but with God it is possible'. that is the exact thing Paul teaches. salvation can never be attained no matter the amount of good works a man does; "for all alike have sinned, and all consciously come short of the glory of God gaining acquittal from guilt by His free unpurchased grace through the deliverance which is found in Christ Jesus" Rom. 3;23,24. To quote Jesus “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John. 14;6) Every work a man does outside of Christ is dead works, and cannot, i repeat CANNOT, lead to salvation.
Heb. 6;1
"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from [color=#990000]dead works, and of faith toward God"
Mark 16;15 -16;
"15 He (Jesus) said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." It is whoever believes and then follows through by being baptized and obeying the gospel etc, that is saved NOT whoever does good works. or whoever practices righteousness.
DO you understand the gospel at ALL

there is no contradiction between what Paul said and what James said; James was only illustrating the differences between the professors of faith and the doers of faith. if you say you have faith, and do not practice it then your faith is in vain. Paul teaches the very same thing, Titus. 1;16;
"They profess to know God, but in works deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and found worthless as to every good work;
Now, then, see 1Thess. 1;3NIV
"We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ."
did you read that quote from Paul? your works produced by faith.
Again, 2Thess. 1;11 NIV "With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act (or work) prompted by your faith" (addition mine)
Faith without works is dead!
See also Gal. 5;6, 1Cor. 13;2, 1Cor. 13;13 for further study

I split it in two because its getting too long.

@somze,
nice rejoinder.
i considered replying English1 but then i observed that, like nferyn earlier said, she's not a "well grounded atheist"   and so i held my peace.
@English1
at the risk of leading someone on in a path i don't agree with, i suggest you get a firm grounding in atheism; so at least you'd be good at what you do. but i think the better thing to say would be what somze said; that you would come to know Him.
@all,
sincerely i don't think anyone can categorically say if the story is true or not except we went to USC to find out; in which case it can be still be denied.
However, personally, i don't subscribe to anecdotes. there are better and more effective ways of leading people to Him. Cheers.

Drusilla:
You make a good argument. Yet here the scripture speaks of Christ soul not being left in hell. (The Grave)

Act 2:31  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
When Christ was resurrected, his body, and his soul were resurrected together.

So that doesn't speak of a soul being separate from the body, at least in terms of where it goes upon death.

i agree that the bible says Jesus' soul was not left in hell; indeed that is the very point i was making; the soul still remains or exists after physical death. but then, consistent with the scriptures i quoted in my earlier post, his soul was seperate from his body; because his body remained in the tomb but his soul went to the grave (hades). technically speaking, his body was not in hades. He (his soul) ressurected from the grave and that is why his body did not see decay; if he had remained in the grave, then his body will have decayed.
Now the question of why he went to the grave is another issue entirely. and the point here is that he did not remain in the grave; which is the fate of those who are unsaved.

Both go to the grave. Both must be resurrected together, right?

the soul of a child of God i believe does not go to the grave but rather to be with the Lord, as i earlier stated (2Cor. 5; 6- Also, Rev. 6;9-10. the case of Jesus was different as explained below. as regards an unbeliever i believe Matt 10;28 applies.

And if anybody's soul was going to go straight from death to heaven, Jesus should have went, right?

I don't believe so. i didnt want to go into this but just a few words; i believe quite the contrary, in Eph. 4; 8-10 - he had to descend into the depths of hades, in order that he might 'fill all in all'. His dominion being exercised over all things including the grave. The verse also mentions him 'leading the captives in his train' another issue entirely (see 1Pet.3;18-19).
Also, Hebrews 3;14-15, in descending to the grave, he destroyed the power of the devil
Linking the previous with Rev.1;18, it is not explicitly stated but we can infer that it was while in the grave that he obtained 'the keys to death and Hades' having destroyed the power of the devil, that is why he said; 'I was dead'. And thus, 'all authority in heaven and on earth' belongs to Him. Matt. 28; 18
Indeed, because He is God, and by the power of the Spirit, death could not hold or contain him, and he was ressurected from the grave.

these are my thoughts based on my understanding of those scriptures i mentioned; i am not an authority on this subject and i'm still learning. cheers.

KAG:
How can it be determined that the word of that God or set of Gods is Truth (capital T)? Is it subjective?

Obviously, if it is subjective, it can't be absolute. No, it is not subjective. I'd come to your first question later.

How so? For something to be defined as a reality there has to be unambiguous ways to show the validity of its existence

the REALITY i assume he is referring to does not claim to be a physcial reality, so looking for physical means of verifying His existence, except for an understanding of the things that are created as being a product of that entity, is pointless. you can't look for a creator within the creation - at least in this case, you can't look for God within the physical, because he is above the physical. the only evidence in the physical is indirect; evidence of his handiwork and his qualities, rather than of He himself.
For those who understand the dimension in which his REALITY is manifest, they indeed make use of unambigous ways of verifying things in that reality and it works.

There has been no unambiguous and unsubjective presentation of any "speakers" who have brought existence to be, so for now that definition of Truth cannot be applied

says who? perhaps i don't understand

the existence of Jehovah relies on faith.

i'm assuming you're missing something here because that statement doesn't make sense. His existence does not rely on faith; his relationship and his dealings with his people relies on faith. those are two different things. if no one chooses to believe in Him, He will still exist, independent of and regardless of the absence of faith.

Truth shouldn't depend on faith.

Again, Truth, in itself, does not depend on faith. the working of truth in the life of a person however depends on faith. this is obvious for the very same reason you stated in your first line;
"How can it be determined that the word of that God or set of Gods is Truth (capital T)?"
that is not a new question and even servants of God have asked (and perhaps do ask) that question. For example ""How can I be sure of this?" (Luke 1;18) (WEB) or as put by weymouth "By what proof," asked Zechariah, "shall I know this?" This is obviously the same questions you guys ask. This is where the proper biblical definition of faith comes in Heb. 11;1 "being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see".  For one to accept a certain word, eg the one spoken by the angel to zechariah, as truth, there has to be faith. Faith is being sure of something even when all other occurences seem to point to the other way. Faith has its pressuppositions; that God exists and that He rewards the seeker heb. 11;6. thus for one who ab initio rejects God, there is no point in faith.
the physical reality exists many times contrary to God's will and purposes. to have God's reality (will) prevail over the natural course of events in a man's life, there has to be faith - in other words, a way of aligning one's reality with that of God.
The question then should be since faith is 'being sure', how are we sure? why do we have faith? the answer is obvious in the presuppositions.
First, God's existence. If he is God and he made all things, then with Him there should be no impossibility. as He cannot be subject to the laws of his own creation. the natural mind works based on what obtains, what goes, what has been observed. that is why Zechariah did not believe; becuase what obtained was; 'old women don't give birth'; thus his statement "For I am an old man, and my wife is far advanced in years." that is a fact; but it is not TRUTH. because truth can override facts, because truth is of GOd, with whom there is no impossibility. the issue then is; will you side with the seeming facts ('seeming' because it no longer remains a fact when it is broken) or with the potential for unimaginable possiblities (as exemplified in God's omnipotence)

the second reason why it is expedient to have faith is because God is faithful ie He is faith-worthy. the one who has exhibited faith at a prior time and has observed a seeming impossibilty come to pass finds it easier to believe again; for there is a foundation for faith and thus his faith grows. For the first-time believer it is much harder. the experienced believer however finds it easy, because he has known his God to be faith[i]ful[/i]. The tilting point however is that young believer who, like a little child, does easily commit himself to his Father in child-like trust and is thus able to exhibit great, child-like faith.

the third reason which i wont go into much, is that spiritual realities (the realm to which belongs the word of God) are not about probabilties, which is the way our mind works, but about certainties.  Biblical christians beleive that a man has three dimensions. the spirit is the seat of true knowledge. In this faculty, when you KNOW something, ie when a certain truth is revealed to you, you are sure of it. the very nature of spiritual knowledge and spiritual truth is certainty and infallibility. that is why a believer who is 'saved' cannot be easily influenced by any amount of contrary arguments and reasoning, even when or if he is not competent intellectually to argue and defend his faith, because he KNOWS who he has believed in. This does not mean he cannot stray though; for he still has the power to choose to reject God. For the one who has not experienced the same thing, however, he would keep asking 'how can you be sure'. And even then, the one who has had the experience perhaps might not know how to explain it; he just KNOWs it and he is certain of it. However, even though his spirit is sure of it, he lives in the physical realm, wherein pertains the body. and because he does not live in the spirit realm but in the physical where everything appears contrary, then faith is employed as the protector, or defender of what he is SURE or CERTAIN of in his spirit; that is why the bible talks about the SHEILD of faith in Eph. 6;16 because he is constantly assaulted as regards this certainty but his faith, as a shield, guards the truth he has within him. this is the trial of faith 1Pet.1;7,  1Pet4;12, 1Tim.1;12.

My arguments were about why faith has to be the mode for the relationship between a deity (who is spirit) and a man. There are reasons why we can be sure of one particular account as being the TRUTH. I refer to the truth of Jesus Christ. i didn't bother to go into that because our presuppositions or terms of reference would have to agree before that can be argued upon.
cheers.

sorry am replying a little late.

TV01:
Well I personally do think it's of consequence. I am not denying the fact of ensoulment.

we both agree on that.

Please show from scripture that the soul survives death.

the scirpture quoted by bari_kade above addresses the issue.
However, I'd try to use some more scriptures from the Lord himself.
Matt. 10.28
Don't be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell (gehenna)
From that scripture we can make a few inferences;
[list]
[li]Killing the body (death) does not bring about a killing of the soul. [/li]
[li]God is the only one who can "destroy" the soul forever (The term destruction i believe connoting that the soul 'perishes', is 'lost' etc)
[/li]
[/list] Adding the above to Matt. 10; 39
“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it"
the word life here (psuche) is the same word for soul, because the bible equates the soul as being the life of man and the seat of his personality and individuality
we can infer from the second scripture that, he who loses his soul for the Lord (via crucifiction of the soul life by the power of the cross) will find it ie eternally. while he who refuses to surrender his soul to the Lord will lose it (verse 28)
this is also what is stated in this verse in John 12;25. Again, the very same word for soul, psuche, is used. "He that loves his life shall lose it, and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal" In order words, he who loves his soul or his soul life will lose it (perish) while the contrast will keep it for eternity.

Now to further buttress the point, the fairly popular verse in 1Thess 5;23
"And may God Himself who gives peace, make you entirely holy; and may your spirits, souls and bodies be preserved complete and be found blameless at the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (emphasis mine)
the bible here is explicit on the soul being preserved until and at Christ's coming. i believe we'd agree that that refers to the second coming. If it is to be preserved then it is not to be dissolved. at his coming the bible teaches that the body is to be changed; but it will still have a body. Likewise we will have a soul and a spirit.

That depends on your take on the root of the word translated soul in every case. If the soul survives death, as above  please show it. Upon death, I believe the scriptures show that sleep follows. No more consciousness.

i made use of scriptures that refer to the soul or to the functions of the soul.
Peter, referring to his impending demise, said; "For I know that the time for me to lay aside my body is now rapidly drawing near". Death is like a laying aside of the body; not the soul and not the spirit. the 'me' there obviously does not have the same fate as the body (at least temporally, until the body is raised up a spiritual body).
Linking that verse with 2Cor. 4; 6-8. I believe also that the scriptures teaches that to be away from the body is to be 'at home with the Lord'. Leaving the body (in death) from the way the scriptures teach it is like leaving one house for another. the excitement by which Paul looks forward to it and the fact that he will be with the Lord, shows that there is indeed going to be consciousness after death. This same train of thought is what makes sense when you consider Acts. 7;55 with Jesus standing at the right hand hand of God. the scriptures teach that Christ is seated at the right hand of GOd (Mk 16;19) but i believe that the Lord stood to welcome Him and the Holy Spirit gave him a glimpse of that so he could endure the pain (Heb. 12;2). This i believe is the kind of 'rich welcome' that Peter was referring to in 2Pet. 1;11.
the bible teaches death we will be with the Lord when we put off this tent of the body. i believe we would be fully conscious in the presence of the Lord.

I'd love to hear you expound when you have the time. And a more apt anolgy if you have one.

don't have an analogy unfortunately. I have the light bulb analogy, but its also not apt. cheers.

abeg thanks oh bari_kade
everyday, new doctrine. God go help us.

adding to what he said; conversely, Phil. 4;13 is rendered WHO by many other translations; in fact it is only KJV that i saw rendering it as WHICH and the new KJV renders it who
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
By the way; if you were to even consider the meaning of that scripture, how is it consistent with the idea of referring to the church? Is it the church that gives us the strength to 'do all things' or rather the LORD?

Paul also used the term christ many times  to refer to the organism which has Jesus as head and the church as body. example:

Ephisians 2:6
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

there is purely no basis for making that kind of inference based on those scriptures. The first scripture is very clear in distinguishing the two things you're trying to muddle up;
'quickened us together with Christ" the US there being the church and that is mentioned distinctly from 'CHRIST". if they were two parts of the same thing then he wouldn't have had the word 'christ' stand on its own and seperately from 'us' - that would have been redundant. In order words, you are trying to say that verse should be rendered; 'quickened christ together with christ' which makes no sense.
The second scripture as well does not warrant such an inference; ICor.11;3 teaches that Christ is the head of every man; does that mean that every man is Christ?
Definitely, the bible teaches that we are IN christ (Acts.17;28, Eph. 1;13) and here it teaches that we are seated WITH christ; it does not however teach that the term Christ refers to the church or that we are Christ. HE is the christ; WE are in HIM. Because we are in Him does not make us Him.

ilabor:
result should be the true test of any technique!

i feel you; but it doesn't work that way with God.
In this context, God is more interested in the process than the result, because the process teaches you how to relate with Him and helps you to learn and grow up into His image.
there are many people that get their results through ill means; yet they still get what they want.
Getting what you want does not exonerate you from the need to have gotten it the right way.
the way of a man is very important to God, not just the things a man has etc.
cheers.

TV01:
The soul comes into being when there is a union of body and spirit. I did'nt say it was not distinct from them, just that it did not exist on its own separately and apart from them.

The scriptural narrative (as far as I've read - although I stand to be corrected -  only speaks of the creation of the body and the giving of the spirit).

Maybe this analogy (ad-hoc) will help. A car conssts of an engine and a chassis. Seperately nothing happens, bring them together and you have a motor vehicle.

just to drop some sentences for now.
I don't think the issue of the soul coming into existence when the spirit entered the body is of any consequence as to predicting either its nature or its future. what matters is that it exists. Everything outside of God has a beginning; the spirit of man has a beginning, likewise the body. the soul has a different beginning from the other two, that does not disqualify it from either being an entity on its own or being able to survive after seperation from the body.
the emphasis the bible places on the salvation of the soul (IPet1;9, Heb.10;31, ), and the dividing of soul and spirit (Heb. 4;12) as well as direct references to distinct soulish entities or functions especially as regards the (renewing of) the mind (rom 12;2, Eph. 4;23, Phil. 4;8, Rom. 8;5-7, Col. 3;2,10) should show us how important the subject of the soul is and act as a pointer to us that the soul does not 'dissolve' after death.
however later on i'd go into much more detail
in my opinion, the car analogy isnt apt. cheers.

Seun:
The real problem with Christians is that what they do is not in line with what they say they believe.

There is no problem with Christians; there might be a problem with those who append the name-tag to themselves without knowing what it means or do so with an intent to decieve.
IJohn 1;6 "If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth"
true christianity is not about the talk, its about the walk. The one who has not learnt to reconcile his walk with his talk has not yet found the true way.
Again, IJohn 2;4
"The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"
the problem is; a lot of spectators see the liars and hear their professions. They also see their actions and then generalize that Christians don't do what they say. the generic term 'christian' could be such an issue sometimes. That is why we have to 'beware of false prophets' and decievers because 'by their fruit'  we shall know them (Matt.7;15,16)
Cheers.

@bari_kade,
thanks for opening up the thread. I'll just make a short input for now hoping the real scholars and all will come and make their inputs.

IMHO, man is a spirit, he pocesses a soul and he lives in a body.
the spirit is the realm of God-consciousness (sometimes though Satan-consciousness), the soul is the seat of self-consciousness, while the body is the seat of physical (or earth) consciousness.

Inputs/corrections welcome.

@jokepearl,
the word 'soul' in the context of Gen 2;7 is not referring to the distinct ethereal entity that constitutes a part of man but rather to the totality of man. Many times the word 'soul' is used in that way. If you check some other translations, it is rendered as 'living being' because that's what it connotes. However there's a point to be made from that ie in unregenerated man, the most prominent aspect of his being is his soul his spirit being dead within him (Eph 2;1) while in contrast, the most prominent dimension of a mature believer is his spirit, having the life of God in his spirit, and by that life, bringing all things within him into subjection to God; that's why ICor 15;45 is very important;

"So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit" NASB
the contrast is very clear.

@lafile,
i agree a new thread on this topic be opened up; perhaps you could do so, it will make for interesting discussions.

what's funny?

I have many Psalms i love. i'd mention two of them;
Psalm 46;
1 God is our refuge and strength,
A very present help in trouble.
2 Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change
And though the mountains slip into the heart of the sea;
3 Though its waters roar and foam,
Though the mountains quake at its swelling pride.

Selah.

4 There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God,
The holy dwelling places of the Most High.
5 God is in the midst of her, she will not be moved;
God will help her when morning dawns.
6 The nations made an uproar, the kingdoms tottered;
He raised His voice, the earth melted.
7 The LORD of hosts is with us;
The God of Jacob is our stronghold.

Selah.

8 Come, behold the works of the LORD,
Who has wrought desolations in the earth.
9 He makes wars to cease to the end of the earth;
He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two;
He burns the chariots with fire.
10 “Cease striving and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.”
11 The LORD of hosts is with us;
The God of Jacob is our stronghold.

Selah

Likewise I love Psalm 42
1 As the deer pants for the water brooks,
So my soul pants for You, O God.
2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God;
When shall I come and appear before God?
3 My tears have been my food day and night,
While they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
4 These things I remember and I pour out my soul within me.
For I used to go along with the throng and lead them in procession to the house of God,
With the voice of joy and thanksgiving, a multitude keeping festival.
5 Why are you in despair, O my soul?
And why have you become disturbed within me?
Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him
For the help of His presence.
6 O my God, my soul is in despair within me;
Therefore I remember You from the land of the Jordan
And the peaks of Hermon, from Mount Mizar.
7 Deep calls to deep at the sound of Your waterfalls;
All Your breakers and Your waves have rolled over me.
8 The LORD will command His lovingkindness in the daytime;
And His song will be with me in the night,
A prayer to the God of my life.
9 I will say to God my rock, “Why have You forgotten me?
Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?”
10 As a shattering of my bones, my adversaries revile me,
While they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
11 Why are you in despair, O my soul?
And why have you become disturbed within me?
Hope in God, for I shall yet praise Him,
The help of my countenance and my God.

i want to weigh in a little on this debate.
@bari_kade and bobbyaf, good job you guys have been doing in maintaining decorum and arguing your case.

However,
@bobbyaf,
i guess you might have answered this, but i somehow can't go through all the lengthy discussions, so i just have a straight-forward question;

'what exactly makes you think (or convinced) that christians should keep the sabbath?' of course, i mean a biblical injunction.
thanks.

for those who don't know that the soul is a distinct entity just as the spirit and the body are distinct entities, grab a copy of "The Spiritual Man" (three volumes) by Watchman Nee. YOu'd get a very good grasp of those realities and concepts.
"And may God Himself who gives peace, make you entirely holy; and may your spirits, souls and bodies be preserved complete and be found blameless at the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." I Thess. 5;23
Cheers.

hi aproko,
ok, i have some time now.

Aproko:
am i a christain? NO. why? because as much as i try to live like christ, i find out that i am more human so to speak than he was on earth and some times i fall short of being called christlike. so am not christlike but striving to be one.

Aproko:
perhaps you didn't understand my answer. i said i was not christlike, because once in a while, i do fall short of being christlike. jesus christ was and remains an examplary human being don't you think? i repeat, i strive to be christlike it means unlike a lot of people, i don't pretend that i am super human, i learn about christ every day, and in a world that is filled with the good, the bad and the ugly, being christlike is more than declaring it, you must live it!!!christainity for me is a way of life and not a religion.

to the question am i a christain? again i say no.

sincerely, i really like your submission here and i do understand your answer; even though i seemed to use it against you earlier, it was just to drive home one point which obviously i didn't succeed at doing.
the point is 'christian' is a term first used by the people of antioch to describe believers or rather disciples Acts11;26. If one is a disciple, then he is a christian. if not, then one isnt. I'd try to explain what it means to be a 'christian' by chipping at some things you said.
First, you are not 'more human' than Jesus was; you just have a different nature than he had. Again; the book of Hebrews really adresses this; Heb.2;17,18
17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

Also Heb. 4;18,
"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin."

there are many other scriptures that point to the humanity of Jesus and he was indeed tempted in every way and went through more things than we ever go through especially in terms of suffering, yet He was without sin. And that is the issue, he was without sin.

Second, now you said some things which i'd address; you said; 'i strive to be christ-like' This is the whole point of my argument, an average human being (with the attendant normal sinful nature) cannot strive to be christ-like. No. We can never become Christ-like by striving; the only way to become Christ-like is by having Christ in you. that's the whole point of the message of the gospel.
Now i don't know if that seems like a trivial point to you, but it is actually not so. let me explain. the whole gospel message is summed up in this; "Christ IN you, the hope of glory". Not, "you LIKE christ, the hope of glory". Now, don't get me wrong; the goal of being a christian is to be christ-like, but the approach matters. God's approach is to get rid of everything that pertains to the human nature in us through death on the cross, and in its place, to have Christ be all in all.
that is the whole point of Gal. 2;20,
"I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me; and the life which I now live in the body I live through faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up to death on my behalf".
the I there is the sinful human nature. what the Holy spirit does is to crucify that nature in us by making use of the cross. In true Christians, the sinful nature no longer lives. So it is not a matter of effort or anything, it becomes a natural thing for Christ to live through us, rather than the unnatural thing for us to try to emulate Christ.
Third, those that call themselves Christians and live above sin are not 'pretending that they are superhuman' rather, they acknowledge the grace that has been given to them and live by it. Jesus came to raise the bar; and show us that without him in us, we CANNOT please God. that's why it has to be by faith. Let me quote a scripture in I john 3;9
"Whoever has been begotten of God does not practise sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God". ( JN Darby translation)
what do you see when you see such a verse? You see an impossibility for the natural man. But for him who has the seed of God (christ) in him, he cannot continue to sin. that's what being a christian means, we have the seed of God in us.
i'm sorry for the long epistle; but this is the whole point in the faith. that's why i can say 'i am a christian'. Not because i don't have a sinful nature. No. but because i don't live by that nature - i make use of the cross to put to death the old creation and i live by the new nature of christ through the spirit. I'd advise you to really study Romans 6 - 8.
Or grab a copy of 'The Normal Christian Life' by Watchman Nee.

Now to the other issues you raised;

what i said and i say again is that if the writer of hebrew was not there when jesus christ was praying and the sweat was like drops of blood, how did he know? who told him?

jesus christ himself never wrote down anything!!!!!!mathew, mark, and luke were not there during the transfiguration, so how did they know about it? simple, they were told

this post is a bit funny but i'd address it. if they were told, does that mean they were lied to? let me drag this further; Luke 11 makes it clear that the Lord's prayer was given in response to a question by his disciples. Did John write the Lord's prayer? NO. and he was the only apostle to write a gospel. If we assume that these three writers were not among the disciples who asked him the question, the issue then remains; the Lord's prayer that you are hanging to so dearly; was it not also written by these second-hand witnesses? Were they not also told? So what makes the information in Hebrews less valid than that in the synoptic gospels? indeed the writer of Hebrews cleary addresses this point when he said in Heb. 2;3
"how shall we escape if we have been negligent of so great salvation, which, having had its commencement in being spoken of by the Lord, has been confirmed to us by those who have heard"
so are you then saying that those who confirmed it to them were lying?

The second issue is, I think you are missing the whole point of 'inspired'. The reason a book is said to be inspired is when the writer says things he couldn't have said except God told him. the books written by Moses; was he there when God created the heaven's; so how did he know what happened when he wasn't there? Of course, because God told him. that's the whole point. the writer of hebrews gave many nuggets that he couldn't have said unless inspired, because he was inspired.
On reading goodguy's post, i see he has addressed this second point very succintly above.

Now as regards the Lord's prayer; i'd go into that in more detail later.

@goodguy,
thanks good guy for that response; i couldn't have said it better myself.
i have a few things to add about the subject of spiritual warfare which i'll chip in later today.

@aproko,
towards the end of my post i said;

Except of course you want to say that we are being decieved by our bibles. i'd oblige you.

and just as i expected, you did so! that's the easy way out you know, just say that the book of hebrew isnt valid.
However, since you yourself have admitted that you're not a christian; i wonder when the opinion of non-christians, rather than the bible, became the yardstick for determining how [i]christians [/i]should pray. Don't you think that is rather pompous or at best self-conceited? Cheers.

@ otuwe,

otuwe:
if its against principalities and power then do u shout and dramatise so much as if u are fighting with a human being. Prayer requires silence, serenity (thats why Jesus would always go to the wilderness) this jumbing up and down doesnt take us anywhere.

Do you have an idea how Jesus prayed, do you think he was being silent when, during prayer, his 'sweat was like drops of blood'. Maybe you have never been in an agonizing prayer situation before.

Let me give you an idea how Jesus prayed; Heb 5.7
"During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." (emphasis mine)

so much for your 'silent Jesus prayers'. Jesus prayed in agony and loud cries.

Like someone has addressed before, 'our warfare is not against persons with bodies (ie humans) but against spiritual beings'. Those who pray that their fellow man die are missing the mark in that regard. But that is a totally different issue entirely from whether we ought to pray silently or not. Again, to re-emphasise, we are to love our enemies not pray against them. But we have enemies who are not human, and we are not commanded to love them but rather wrestle and fight them. Eph. 6;12, James 4;7. Those are two different things. And if you've ever being in true spiritual warfare before, no one needs to tell you before you groan and shout from the spiritual intensity of such battles.

Just to help you understand the issue further; here is another verse; Romans 8;26
"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express." again, emphasis mine.

If you don't understand something, you don't have to conclude that 'these people are being decieved by their pastors'. Except of course you want to say that we are being decieved by our bibles. i'd oblige you.

@Tomiwa

i,m sure guys from other religions are enjoyn this and probably laughing their hearts out,wot a pity.

bros,
there's nothing to be pitied here; it only shows how important TRUTH is and how ERROR in any form (even if it has the 'Christian' name tag appended to it) is to be exposed. we are to be wary of any form of falsehood, even if it were to be in our own house.

"if the righteous is difficultly saved, where shall the impious and the sinner appear?" 1Pet.4;18

"Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!" 2Cor.13;5a

MIZIEYA:
[color=#770077]well, the silent: if a website says www.mizieya.com- the conclusion of who's website it is should be obvious

however if its called www.ieya.info (although that in itself should be a clue as to who the author is) or sisterameliaandjesusministries.com- might be less so.

[/color]

Quote from mizieya's website at www.ieya.info

IEYA, aims to bring you thoughts, suggestions, wisdom and solutions on issues and concerns that affect The Saints (worldwide) through Annointed Messengers: The Administration.

This means that you are no longer required to think for yourselves. Let IEYA do the thinking for you.

Guys, you're discussing with a guy who has given over his mind to a group of people to reason for him, how can he be convinced?

@Mizieya,
when you recover your mind back from the people you loaned it to, we can then begin to try to uproot the loads of deception and folly that the devil, through the Ieya connection, has planted in it.
till then, prayers.

wow, i bow. lol
you've said everything, what else can we say?

@TellyB,

Telly B:
There are a few names up there that enrich my spiritual life. Tunde Bakare and Gbile Akanni have some perculiar way of sharing Biblical insights. Others are familiar names who are gifted in their rights as well.

very funny cos if i had to mention prominent names, it would be those two - i attended LRA until i left naija. Likewise Gbile (like we used to call him) was our regular back in UI, he's really a challenge for young guys like us.
Alongside those there have been very many non-prominent men that have shaped my life. the level of spiritual knowledge and understanding many of them pocess is however not reflected by their popularity or lack thereof. they are so many but i'd just mention one Pastor Awolusi who is a missionary in the villages of Ondo state; he was (and still is) a real blessing to my life.

@TayoD,

TayoD:
One of the best teachers of God's Word that I know is one Pastor Gbade. I can't even remeber his last name and what church he pastors. I know he pastors a church in Ibadan at the Agbowo Shopping complex about 7 years ago. He was in our church to teach on healing, and men the guy is sound. Very simple in his delivery of the scriptures but still articulate and precise.

small world indeed. Pastor Gbade Ogunlana pastors BCC (Bible city church) in Ibadan. He's no longer in Agbowo shopping complex; he's now in a larger place in Bodija. He used to come around to my faculty fellowship back in UI many times and share the Word with us. If there's anyone i've met that knows how to break the word to the level in which ANYBODY can understand, it is him.
I really miss those times back in nigeria. That's why i cant but disagree with those who generalize that nigerian preachers are fraudulent and what not; Nigeria is really blessed indeed, but many times we need to look in the obscure places to find such true men of God.

my main issue was who will one beleive?

Evidence or the suggestions of one.

i don't know so much about geology or other fields, but i do beleive that there definitely was a literal flood, if there wasn't Jesus wouldn't have quoted it as well as Peter. (Luke 17;26-30, 2Pet. 3;3-7).
i've witnessed first-hand the propaganda in evolutionary biology, and i'm very sure the same people behind that can mastermind a counter theory in geology and other fields.
the question is 'if there was a flood, what will the evidence be?' massive erosions, fossilizations, oil etc. and those can be observed. so the evidence is not inconsistent with the flood.
i'm sure if we had honest scientists that were not influenced by other things, that would be the common knowledge.

As for your initial question

where the water to cover the entire Earth could have come from and receded to

if we are talking about the God of the bible, who is omnipotent, that is not an issue. if He could create the universe, a little water to cover just one of his planets shouldn't be an issue. If however, one is to believe evolution, then one can reject it happening; no wahala.

I believe the bible, even with the amount of attack that have been tried to use to discredit it, it still has the power to save and does. cheers.

Potaeto; Potahto. In my opinion, the Eden narrative wasn't mean't to be read literally and the snake wasn't a literal talking snake.

in YOUR opinion.

Not unless you go a for a literal reading. Remember Joshua and the Sun standing still and Hezekiah and the Sun going back.

perspective; relative to the earth,

In Psalm 104: 5

Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

1st Chronicles 16:30

Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

Isaiah 40:22

the circle of the earth; and the Devil showing Jesus all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain.

circle of the earth - earth is not flat. He took him in the spirit realm, there is no distance in the spirit realm.

You're kidding right?

when next i have time; i'd go into it.

Apart from where the water to cover the entire Earth could have come from and receded to, what is a kind?

explained in the bible. go to, www.drdino.com

To the contrary of what? That the Eden account and several other aspects of the Bible should not be read literally? Or that if read literally many of the narratives are highly improbable?

highly improbable for humans, not for God. the question is, who will you believe?

KAG:
What statistics? Are the "negatives" more now than any other time in history? How were they calculated?

at least in the US, divorce rates are on the rise, teen pregnancies are on the rise, abortions are on the rise, etc.
however, not to be rude or anything, we don't have the same basis for judging negatives and positives, so there's really no point.