₦airaland Forum

obonujoker:
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Read also Isaiah 53:1-12

erniok:
How did they create Jesus or you guys don't understand the term create?

oroje1:
And who's the God who gave human different ways of worshipping him knowing quite well that that would cause confusion.... speaking biblically, God has always had one way of guiding those who he chooses.from Abraham to the nation of Israel,and when he rejected the Israelites it's only through Christianity...the African religions you mentioned are all demon worshippers

obonujoker:
In the book of Isaiah the old testament, Jesus was prophesied to come

erniok:
How did the Romans create God.

oroje1:
True Christianity has no fault,it was after the death of Christ's faithful apostles that the great apostasy started happening courtesy of the merging of Christianity and the the secular world (the church being made a state religion in Rome) ,so the Roman Catholic church started this whole distortion of the truth,and that's why it's been hard for men like you to give Christianity a try...the whole thing have been middled up with falsehood...but please don't stop searching for the truth..

SIRTee15:
So u mean Isaiah is the servant mentioned in the servant song. Isaiah is the one called Israel in the book of Isaiah?? No longer nation of Israel?

The LORD said to me, “You are my servant, Israel...

Are u telling me Isaiah is the servant that will gather Israel and Jacob together back to the LORD?
How did he accomplish this? If Isaiah is the servant, did he fulfil this prophecy When and how and where

5 And now the Lord says—
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,

Finally u mean Isaiah is the Lord's servant to bring salvation to the world and be a light for all nations?
Isaiah is the servant that will let the world know about the one true God?
Pray, how and when did Isaiah fulfill this prophecy

At this point all I can say is only God can help u to see the truth staring at u.

SIRTee15:
U call yourself a Jew but completely ignorant of the Jewish scriptures. U have zero clue of the Midrash.

Now your argument hinges on servant in servant song is nation of Israel as if Israel is only applied for nation in the tanakh.

The same servant song expose u.
Isaiah 49

He said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
4 But I said, “I have labored in vain;
I have spent my strength for nothing at all.
Yet what is due me is in the Lord’s hand,
and my reward is with my God.”

5 And now the Lord says—
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord
and my God has been my strength—

This passage confirms the Lord has chosen his servant called Israel who was declared a servant right from the womb- this is a strong indication that the servant called Israel has human attributes because he was formed in the womb.

Moreover
Isaiah 49: 3-6 proves that “Israel” is an individual:
Verse 3:
“You are My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
Verse 5–6:
The same servant is sent to bring Jacob back to God and restore Israel.
The servant cannot be the nation if he is tasked with restoring the nation.
This strongly supports the interpretation of the Servant as:
a representative individual, from within Israel, but not the same as the whole nation.

The servant is the messiah. Read Isaiah 52.
Ancient Rabbi all said the servant is the messiah.

SIRTee15:
Who is the servant mentioned in Isaiah 52?

SIRTee15:
Ok I will bring it but I sincerely hope this settle the matter.

For your info, Targum is the Aramaic translation of the Hebrew Bible translated and written by Jewish rabbi themselves and read out loud in the synagogues during the era when Aramaic had become the mother tongue of Jews and few could speak Hebrew.

I will show u the servant mentioned in the servant songs of Isaiah 42, 49, 50, 52 and 53 is the messiah according to Jews.

I will also show u The messiah is mentioned in Isaiah 53

SIRTee15:
Have u heard of Targum?
Ok, if I show u that the Jews themselves wrote that Isaiah 43 is about the Messiah IN THEIR OWN SCRIPTURE, will this end the argument.

Dtruthspeaker:
See it. Even when i used what you yourself have said you are still in craz denial. Anyway, i knew already

Dtruthspeaker:
Did you not read that God has a Father Who, Commanded Him to create heaven and earth and gave it to Him?

And is it not God's Rights to choose to sacrifice one His Life for us after all He is eternal life?

Keep going craz dictating to God what He should accept

DeepSight:
Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

2 Samuel 24

1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”

3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the Lord your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.

5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.

8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.

9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the Lord had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’”

13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”

14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”

Tctrills, Kukutente23, TV01, SirTee15, FreeIgboho, Gabrielshow24, ono, femi4, explain.

Dtruthspeaker:
Can you count how many times i have had this argument with you? My last count was 8 times and in all those times you went berserk when I answered you and you saw you had nothing reasonable to say again. So, i leave you with your issues especially as you yourself see that God demanded unblemished living things both birds and animals. And there is no unblemished human being so, no human qualifies. However, seeing how there was no priest worthy to carry out the sacrifices of Atonement, God offered Himself as an unblemished being Who became human as a sacrifice. Which God Accepted.

So, first no human is unblemished and Jesus is not a human being.

And secondly, it is God Who chooses what He shall accept and not you.

And Jesus was/is unblemished so go craz here

Dtruthspeaker:
Can you count how many times i have had this argument with you? My last count was 8 times and in all those times you went berserk when I answered you and you saw you had nothing reasonable to say again. So, i leave you with your issues especially as you yourself see that God demanded unblemished living things both birds and animals. And there is no unblemished human being so, no human qualifies. However, seeing how there was no priest worthy to carry out the sacrifices of Atonement, God offered Himself as an unblemished being Who became human as a sacrifice. Which God Accepted.

So, first no human is unblemished and Jesus is not a human being.

And secondly, it is God Who chooses what He shall accept and not you.

And Jesus was/is unblemished so go craz here

DeepSight:
Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

2 Samuel 24

1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”

3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the Lord your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.

5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.

8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.

9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the Lord had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’”

13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”

14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”

Tctrills, Kukutente23, TV01, SirTee15, FreeIgboho, Gabrielshow24, ono, femi4, explain.

tctrills:
Bro, this is a very lazy effort from you.

Verses that contradict the idea that Jesus could have died for our sins.

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin (Deuteronomy 24:16).
It did not say that God Himself can't die for our sins. And yes, your father a sinner like you is not qualified to die for your sins.

Everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge (Jeremiah 31:30).
Please how does this verse contradict Christ's atonement? We still believe that every man will be punished for his sin, you wouldn't suffer for the sin of another. But we also know that forgiveness comes to us through the sacrifice of Christ. Remember, it was Christ that paid the price of sin not man but God.

The one who sins is the one who will die (Ezekiel 18:4).
You are repeating the same thing and the above explanation covers these.
Remember, it was Jehovah (Jesus Christ) who gave these revelations to man. Also, if in the same bible, men used animals to stone for sin, how much better is the blood of God Himself.

Dtruthspeaker:
I thought you knew The Laws of Atonement or are you saying you don't?

Dtruthspeaker:
Now you have moved post.

SIRTee15:
Send me a link to this thread, let me debunk it

Lucifyre:
You mean the god that accepted Jephtah's sacrifice of his daughter, supposedly tested Abram with slaughtering his son is against human sacrifice and killing. Same god who outrightly commanded different genocides and supposedly wuped out the whole earth. Pot meet kettle.

Dtruthspeaker:
You are not the one to dictate to God what He should accept as His atonement.

And The Laws of Atonement lists out what God wanted which Jesus fulfilled, so you cannot dictates to God

SIRTee15:
Then explain Isaiah 53

Dtruthspeaker:
Still the same thing The Law of Atonement said

DeepSight:
+
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made"

- John 1:1-3

SIRTee15:
Your argument will only make sense if there is another god or deity who atone for sins without shedding of blood.
If u can point to another deity or supreme being that atone for sins without any self sacrifice, then I will agree we should doubt the divine justice of God.
As far as I'm aware the only supreme being that atone for sins is the God of the bible. No other deity atone for sins.
So there's nothing to compare.
Pls understand what atonement mean before replying.



No matter how disciplined or how hard we try, we can never please God. It's just impossible.
God himself said the best of our effort is like filthy rags. That's how he describes our righteousness.
I think the problem is man thinks too highly of himself. He believes he has what it takes to compete with other living beings sch as supernatural ones and justify this by his effort and accomplishments.
Guy I hate to describe it to u, but man is one of the most irrelevant and weakest being in our universe.
Man and earth can disappear today, and the universe will not even notice. The rest of the universe will go on for billion of years not caring of our disappearance.
Universe doesn't need us, neither do God the creator of the universe. We are the ones that need the universe and God.
Our discipline is useless to God.
Thinking otherwise is absurd.


Your argument is weak and easily broken.
Now if you tell your child not to swim in the deep side of the swimming pool, but disobeys and swam to that end and start drowning; will u say it's her fault n should face the consequences or u will instantly think of saving her despite ignoring your warnings?

This is not about whose fault or facing consequences of your action. But it's the action every loving parent will take if her child is in distress irrespective of the causation of the distress itself. Salvation first, correction and discipline can only happen when the child is saved and alive.


So if Jesus knew he would be brought back to live after death, then there was no human sacrifice. None.
QED.



It's like u don't get it. The relationship between God and Jesus isn't biological. Jesus is not the son of God in a biological sense rather the relationship is hypostatic.
Jesus is God in flesh, he is the visible reflection of the invisible God. They are the same BEING - they have the same ontology.

God didn't send someone to die for our sin, he did it himself. Your argument is only valid if Jesus Christ is a separate being from the Father. He's not. Jesus himself said so.

The problem here is poor knowledge of the foundational theology of the Christian faith. U need to understand our theology b4 u can critique it.

I will do my best to open your eyes the foundational knowledge of our faith. It's just that I have been very busy. But this few days I will try and keep up with u and others.

Dtruthspeaker:
Now you see that God is Good that He even gives us a chance to be saved where no man will, via His Veto and Overriding Power.

And that is where His Laws of Atonement come in for God Will Always follow His Laws.

tctrills:
Ok, let's not dwell on the creation argument, let's call it another grey area. Let's only focus on the Saviour and the Judge argument.
If there is only one Saviour as Isaiah says and the new testament tells us the Saviour is Jesus Christ, I would love to hear your argument here.
Also, if Jehovah will judge all men and we are clearly told that the Father will judge no man, how is the Father Jehovah. Does appointing a judge make you a judge?
Let's limit the argument to the clearest examples so we are not all over the place.

One more, in the book of Zechariah we learn that Jehovah will be pierced. Who fulfilled that prophecy?
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

One more thing, how do you understand these verses.
Isaiah 42:8
I am the Lord. That is my name. I will not let anyone else share my glory. I will not let people praise idols. I am the only one that they must praise.
Jehovah will not share His glory. No two people can share His name or title

DeepSight:
+
Surely you know that when we say Dangote built a refinery we dont mean that he lifted the bricks and pipes and mortar. Others did that. And yet we credit Dangote with building the refinery. Same way as with your own house. We say you built a house even when you only instructed others to do it. Same way we say a leader wages war when he only gives orders.

As to your argument that Jesus created the world, scripture says the world was created through him. There is a difference.