Truthseeker10: Where did the bible teach that Adam's soul was seperate from his body? Explain Genesis 2:7. What became a living soul, the breath of life and the man made from dust?
MaxInDHouse: You confused guy. Go to any school as in any around you and tell students Bible characters aren't real people then come back and share your experience?🤣
That's what i do any time i have an opportunity. They are always happy to learn.
I teach them the messages in the story and that is what they take away and live by...The letter killeth, the spirit giveth life....
Truthseeker10: So God has been killing and raping God on earth?
sound weird, but it is true.....because of ignorance and your group is busy misinforming and miseducating people. it is all ignorance of who we truly are.
MaxInDHouse: Can you see how confused you are now?😀
I explained what Isaiah said you want to argue but you yourself said everything God created was GOOD so how come you want to say EVIL was created by God again?
In the beginning God said everything He created was GOOD! Genesis 1:31
explained what? that's explanation would not be given by an SS3 student at all. please can you Read the passage again ? stop talking like a 10 year old....
Truthseeker10: These are clearly your words below. You are the one clearly twisting your own words.
"God is everything. Everything he created. When you see humans, spirits , animals, plants etc that is God."
[i][/i] The universe is a single entity(God) we are part of God and he is part of us. it is simple enough. God is the universal consciousness. we are the physical manifestations of God. I am God experiencing life as sonmvayina, you are God experiencing life as Truthseeker..etc. we all have the God spark. when we expire, our consciousness returns to the universe (God) and our body is buried for it to return to dust....
FxMasterz: It is actually the norm but the Yahweh vs Marduk case is a peculiar one. The laws, mode of worship, attributes, etc of Yahweh are clearly different from that of Marduk. They can't be the same entity. Where there are gods bearing different names in different places, their mode of worship and rituals usually converge.
Have you seen the laws Marduk gave to Hamurabi? which is like 2000+ years before the Jews came into existence much of the Jewish laws are just recaps or recast of earlier Babylon myths and legends, where Marduk is the chief God. it was even Marduk who asked them to go to Babylon during the exile to learn about him.....see the book of Jeremiah.
FxMasterz: Nobody is claiming Josephus was “there.” The point about Flavius Josephus is that by the first century AD, the Jews already accepted Isaiah as a unified prophetic book. That shows what the tradition was long before modern skepticism. Flavius himself only documented what was passed down by those who were there.
As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, yes, the Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsaa) is dated around 125–150 BCE. But that argument actually weakens your position, not strengthens it. Because the scroll contains ALL 66 chapters in one continuous manuscript. No break. No “Second Isaiah” label. No evidence of separate circulation. By 2nd century BCE, Isaiah was already a single, stable book.
And saying “this issue has been known for 200 years” doesn’t make it correct. The documentary hypothesis about Moses is also 200+ years old and heavily debated. Age of a theory is not proof of its accuracy. What matters is manuscript evidence. And manuscript evidence does not show multiple Isaiahs — that’s a literary hypothesis built on assumptions about prophecy.
No, you didn't present any evidence. You presented [b]People's views[/b]as evidence. Views can never be admitted as evidence for anything.
This “no manuscript older than DSS” argument applies to almost every ancient text in existence. We do not have original manuscripts of Herodotus, Plato, or Thucydides either. Their earliest copies are centuries after they lived. That’s normal in ancient literature. So if you use that logic consistently, you must throw away most of classical history.
Second, textual scholars who study Hebrew manuscripts do not have an earlier “proto-Deutero-Isaiah scroll” to show us. There is no archaeological discovery of “Isaiah 40–55 only” as a separate book. The Dead Sea Scrolls show unity, not division.
Also, this debate is not about English translations. The Hebrew text of Isaiah 40–66 is preserved in the same manuscript tradition as chapters 1–39. The Masoretic Text and the Dead Sea Scroll Isaiah text are substantially aligned. So let’s not pretend this is about biased English Bibles. The theory of multiple authors is a literary-critical proposal, not a manuscript discovery
This is where the real issue shows. The argument assumes prophecy cannot happen. Once you assume that, then of course you must say it’s “retcon.”
But that is a philosophical starting point, not historical evidence.
Isaiah 45 explicitly names Cyrus the Great and says he will release captives and rebuild Jerusalem. Historically, Cyrus conquered Babylon in 539 BCE and issued decrees allowing exiles to return and rebuild temples (including Jerusalem’s). That’s not disputed history.
So the question is simple: Either the text predicted it, or it was written after the fact.
There is no manuscript that says, “Written in 539 BCE after Cyrus.” That date is inferred because of a prior commitment that predictive prophecy is impossible. If you remove that philosophical bias, the argument collapses into a possibility claim, not proof.
And saying “most of the Old Testament was written anonymously after exile” is an oversimplified academic generalization. Even within critical scholarship, dating varies widely. There is no universal agreement on exact dates.
You are mixing categories.
The Bible never says Cyrus converted to Yahweh. Isaiah 45 actually says Cyrus did not know Him. The prophecy is about God using a pagan ruler as an instrument, not about Cyrus becoming a worshipper.
Now about the Cyrus Cylinder — yes, Cyrus credits Marduk for his victory over Babylon. That is completely expected. Ancient Near Eastern kings always credited their national god in inscriptions. That was political propaganda language of the time.
It would actually be shocking if a Persian emperor wrote, “Yahweh did this,” when addressing Babylonians. The cylinder was meant for Babylonian audiences. Of course he would frame it in Marduk language.
The Bible’s claim is theological — that Yahweh was sovereign behind the scenes. The cylinder is royal propaganda. Those two are not mutually exclusive unless you assume ancient kings always gave objective theological reports in political inscriptions.
In Isaiah 37/38, Senecharib claimed his gods gave him all the lands he conquered and that he'll conquer Jerusalem like one of them. But God spoke through Isaiah that He was the One who fashioned Senecharib long before he was born. He fashioned him to spoil nations and conquer territories. Meanwhile, he attributed it to himself and his gods. Nebuchadnezzar did the same. Meanwhile, God said He was the One who made him strong. So,b there are many instances of humans acting extraordinarily and attributing it to something else without knowing that they were merely being used by God.
There is no archaeological evidence that “Deutero-Isaiah” existed as a separate book. That theory is based on stylistic differences and historical assumptions. It is not based on a discovered second scroll signed “Anonymous Prophet 540 BCE.”
Meanwhile, the archaeological evidence we do have — the Great Isaiah Scroll — shows textual unity centuries before Christ.
So let’s be honest: both positions interpret the same data differently. One starts with “prophecy is possible,” the other starts with “prophecy is impossible.” That’s the real dividing line.
Calling prophecy “retcon” does not prove it is. It simply reflects your starting assumption.
If you want to argue stylistic variation, fine — that’s a literary discussion. But don’t present it as archaeological demolition of Isaiah. The archaeology we have does not split the book. It preserves it as one.
Abeg, make we argue with consistency. If manuscript gaps disqualify Isaiah, then they disqualify most of ancient history too. If royal propaganda disproves theology, then no ancient religious claim survives scrutiny.
At the end of the day, the Deutero-Isaiah theory is a respected academic hypothesis. But it is still a hypothesis — not a smoking gun discovery that “Isaiah 45 is a lie.”
Prophets of old usually write their prophesies using scribes who own down what they said. They don't do the writing themselves. So, if Isaiah changed his scribe towards the end of the book, they style and the toning could change to match that of the new writer.
Change of styles and tones are not evidences.
And conclusively, the dead sea scrolls are a collections of books. And before a collection can happen, the individual books must have existed before the collection. And each book could have existed even centuries before the collection happened. You cannot use the dead sea scrolls dating to date the book of Isaiah that have existed before the scrolls were collected.
or they are referring to the same God with different names??
LordReed: That is incorrect, you are NOT relying on people that were there. You mentioned Josephus, who was not there. The Dead Sea Scrolls are dated to around 200BCE, 400 years after the supposed book was written so no you are not even remotely relying on anybody who was there.
BTW the issue with Isaiah has been known for more than 200 years so it is not a recent development.
I did present evidence but if you mean archeological evidence then you just shot yourself in the foot because we have no manuscript older than the Dead Sea scrolls which are dated to around 200BCE, 400 years after the supposed book was written.
These are not ordinary views. These are the views of the people who studied the Hebrew manuscripts not the obviously biased English translations you rely on.
The reasoning that eludes you is this isn't a book prophesying jack. It is so obviously a book attempting to retcon the Hebrews post Babylon exilic experience and lay over it the drive towards the re-emerging Jewish faith. Go read about how most of the Old Testament is dated to the writings of anonymous Jewish authors after the Babylon exile, it will clear you. See the screenshot I attached for the dates of when the books were written.
Talk about reasoning, are you telling me that this your god who said he killed 42 children just for mocking his prophet would leave a whole king to give his glory to another god? Abeg guy no dey whine me jor.
He was awed to see his name but still credits it to Marduk? Please tell a believable story jor.
Like I said the dearth of direct archeological evidence is a big problem for your position as well. Meanwhile the Cyrus cylinder indicts the Bible as a bearer of tall tales claiming Yahweh did something which Cyrus claims for Marduk. Is your god so powerless he couldn't prevent this from happening? What a shame. LoLz.
You only need to supply what gave you the impetus for such a statement. If you have nothing, then your claim is worthless. The Deutero and Trito Isaiah claims have solid basis for them and make more sense than the claims of so-called prophesy.
I love that your chat, I proves what I have been saying all along, that the Torah was written when they left the Babylonian exile....by Ezra.@Maxindhouse, the Torah was not written by Moses, moses is just a character in the book. please lordreed, send the site you got that... please.
i also discovered that there was no condition given for what we can ask. some people dont have the knowledge of Solomon to ask for wisdom. some people ask for the lives of their enemies.......and the Lord God will grant it because it is what they asked for.......
when Isaiah wrote "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil(calamity) I the Lord do all these things" .....that was the message he was passing. or when the psalmist says "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"...of the Lord does only good things, why the fear? it is because the Lord is responsible for both good and evil.
Gabrielshow24: Wow. I’ve seen some 'creative' theology, but this is a gold-medal performance in Intellectual Gymnastics. It’s 2026, and you’re still out here serving a word-salad of myths and conspiracies like it’s a Michelin-star revelation. 🤨
Since when did Lucifer (a Latin masculine noun for the 'Light-Bringer' or Morning Star) decide to transition into the 'Queen of Heaven'? You’re mixing your Latin nouns with your Babylonian goddesses🥱.
You’ve managed to shove Mary, Inanna, Aphrodite, Kali, and Osún into one identity. Do you realize how insulted these cultures would be? Kali is a goddess of destruction/time; Aphrodite is about romantic love; Mary is a 1st-century Jewish woman🤦🏾♂️. Linking them all to Lucifer isn’t 'deep knowledge'👀—it’s just lazy pattern recognition🥱. By your logic: Superman, Thor, Doctor Doom, Odin, Zeus, Enki, Scarlet Witch are all Jesus👀—Do you see how ludicrous it sounds?
You’re also obsessed with the title 'Morning Star.' Newsflash: In the ancient world, that was a title for anyone prominent. Jesus is called the 'Bright Morning Star' in Revelation 22:16. By your 'logic,' does that make Jesus the 'Queen of Heaven' too?
You also dragged the Enuma Elish and the death of Dumuzi into this? You’re treating Ancient Near Eastern mythology like a Marvel crossover movie😂. Just because two things exist in a book doesn't mean they are the same person🤦🏾♂️.
Lucifer must be incredibly proud of your work here—not because it's true, but because it’s so confusing that even he probably needs a map to follow your logic.
You’ve managed to commit a Categorical Syllogism Fallacy🤔 so large it has its own zip code: 'A has a title, B has a title, therefore A is B.' 🤦🏾♂️
Seriously, stop 'thinking' and start reading a history book that wasn't written in a basement. 🥱
The fact that you dont understand anything is not my business. if you know what I know you would have understood my write up. but unfortunately for you, you don't. lucifer is a she, I have said this here a thousand times. in the Isaiah story, where it was used, it was using the term to describe the king of Babylon. lucifer is the goddess of death, war and destruction as well as love, wisdom. last time o check Inanna was the goddess of war and destruction....as well as love and wisdom. like I also say here, there is one God and creator of the universe, the only difference is the nomenclature. same goes for the ORiSHAs. Lucifer simply means "light bearer" last time I checked only women have the capacity to bear, men just provide the seed..Exoterically it means "mother of the light" and Jesus happens to be the light according to the book of John. ......I saw through the deception. lucifer is Inanna in Babylon Aphrodite in greece venus is Romans Ishtar in Sumerians isis in Egypt I think osún in yoruba.... same being different nomenclature...
lucifer is the queen of heaven, the morning star, the gate of heaven, comforter of the afficted, refuge of sinners, health of the sick.... lucifer is Mary the mother of jesus in Christianity, she is Inanna in Babylonian religion, Aphrodite in Greeks, Venus in Romans, Ishtar in Sumerians, kali in Indian, I think Osún... she is the mistress of both man and gods.
she was the one who accused Marduk for the death of Dimuzi.
alfredfrddy: As a Christian who believe our God does only good at all times, when we get any and tell someone "God punish you or it will not be well with you." To which "god" are we offering this prayer, "the Christian God or to the Traditional God we do not regard?"
the same God that blesses is the same God that punishes..there is no separate God for good and another for evil. There is only one God and power in the universe.. who has the final say. The name is only what is different.
The story of solomon comes to mind, God asked solomon "What do you want me to do for you,?" and Solomon in his kind heart asked God to give him wisdom to govern his people. it is not everybody that asked for wisdom, some people ask for the life of enemies. and when they do, God will grant it. our wish is Gods command....
let me list some few facts that are wrong with the story. 1. lucifer is a "she" Not a he. Lucifer is the title for Mary mother of jesus(she is the light bearer, since Jesus is the light, that title was used first by Jerome in his latin vulgate. 2. Lucifer is not satan. Satan would be Enlil(the destroyer) while Lucifer is Inanna(his grand daughter) The devil is Nanna/Sin (the son of Enlil) 3. They represent the forces and principles of nature personified. Satan is the Lord of the wind/air, the devil is the Lord of darkness while Lucifer is the lady of love,wisdom, war and death. Angels are the messengers/forces of nature. The yorubas calls them orisha..
His body was never found neither was there any record of the body being destroyed. 2
Other prophets have direct known bloodline. Jesus doesn't. 3
Remember, there are more record from thousand bc that are still factual.
why would you read this and don't get it that it is all myth. shouldn't this be a red flag that the whole thing is made up? if you hear anything he story now, you won't believe it, what makes you think it was correct 2000+ years ago?
elated177: Sonmvayina/mindhacker, have you read the entire Book of John like I advised you to do?
which book of John? the "God spell" or the epistles? they are all forgeries by Greek or Roman Christians, for the purpose of theology. why should I waste my time?
tctrills: That's your opinion. I can't argue with your opinion. So according to you, Abraham never existed, Moses, Isaiah, Jesus Christ, Peter and Paul are not actual historic figures. I can't argue with an opinion.
Do you also think Alexander the great is not an actual person?
He might be/he might not be, doesn't really concern me. but when it comes to religious scriptures I know better. Abraham,Moses Jesus Christ, Peter Paul are all allegorical figures, they are all characters in a story. we were never meant to believe but to know. to know the spiritual message in the stories. The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life... God is the universal divine consciousness...not a Jewish man up in the sky. God is the universe, and we are the universe expressing itself as us..
Uchesis: Till this very moment i'm still trying to make sense out of that narrative.
If God can do all things (omnipotent), then why make your son suffer for that which you can accomplish by the snap of your fingers?
If i can hack 1billion dollars into my account, why do i need to go to a company to work 9 to 5 for 4 weeks to get money?
Makes no sense to me
God the father wants to condemn you to hell fire God the son wants to save you...
But somehow, they are the same dude.... Thank God I left Christianity for Good. My mother has not still come to terms with my decision, but my wife has....
Time is a spiral, I wonder at which time it is going to end. The Tanakh discusses an era of universal world peace which the anointed one(messiah) will usher in. It is will be characterised by peace, no oppression of any kind and the universal recognition and worship of the creator. It never speaks of a "second coming". Or humans going to live somewhere in the sky. I just wonder where Paul got the idea from. Sometimes I feel all the works attributed to him are all forgeries too just like the gospels that came afterwards...
For most of my life, I believed Jesus was historical.
But then I decided to do my own independent research, and came to the conclusion that the “evidence” for a historical Jesus falls into one of the following categories:
Blatant lies such as the bible’s two completely contradictory “virgin birth” fabrications. what are their purpose anyway? Forgeries such as the notorious Testimonium Flavianum of Josephus, half the epistles of Paul, and all the epistles of Peter, James and John. A few historians repeating christian cult propaganda, a century or more after the fact, or fiction. Lies are not evidence.
Forgeries are not evidence.
Hearsay in the form of parroted gossip is not evidence.
Thus there is no actual evidence that Jesus was a real person, or any of his apostles.
elated177: Sonmvayina, I don't know about Jesus, but I know that Yahushua the Messiah is God. He is the embodiment of the Ten Commandments of YHVH Almighty. Without obedience to the Ten Commandments of YHVH Almighty, you have no salvation.
So, I don't follow Jesus. I follow Yahushua the Messiah - the Word and begotten Son of YHVH Almighty, the one and only true God, the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the seas and everything in them.
how did you know? when did God reveal this information or idea.....?
elated177: Sonmvayina, the Scripture is there for you to.read the full story for yourself.
The Tanakh speaks of only one God, where did the christian get the idea of three in one god. this is one of the reason i left Christianity. it is idolatry. The Romans created a go9d in their own image and deceived the world to worship him...... i can smell a lie from far..
Christianity Etc › Re: Why Would A Loving God Torture People In Hell Forever? by sonmvayina(m): 8:31am On Mar 14
.' Newsflash: In the ancient world, that was a title for anyone prominent. Jesus is called the 'Bright Morning Star' in Revelation 22:16. By your 'logic,' does that make Jesus the 'Queen of Heaven' too?