₦airaland Forum

FayaBall:
Cluck, cluck, cluck, chicken. So many cluckings

Smh, sounds like you laying eggs of self-defeat, lmao. It's fine. We understand your limitations .

Nnamdipapa:
They don’t realize the way hormones work when this young girls are passing through puberties and misconstrue some of the behaviors as trying to lure a man. Just imagine the defense they are putting up for the rape of a minor.

"Erm. Your honour, It was not my fault for raping her, she pursued me so I had no choice than to rape"

The above is their defence for a rape of a minor they will get 20years in the US

Lol. Boggles the mind, really, why people like FayaBall a.k.a Dtruthspeaker always try to be so clever by half

Dtruthspeaker:
See insalts, all because she does not have any reasonable argument to make.

Clear case of
'When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.'. -Anonymous

Don't worry, smh, lmao. Be defending rapists. They will soon get a hold of you and toss you inside kirikiri, lol.

FayaBall:
Yes we all know that adults are in a better position but nonetheless it wouldn't be wise to bat away the fact that girls when they mean you, can make even the strongest and disciplined guy to fall.

This knowledge can save men's lives for they are better prepared to resist the girl.

Nnamdipapa:
Are you saying a girl can rape me when they mean me?

As in, take off my belts, pull my jeans, give me an erection and force me to penetrate?

So a minor can over power and do all these to an adult?
I am learning new thing on NL. I never knew.

FayaBall:
Where did I say rape, I clearly said fall, so you are being ridiculous

Smh FayaBall, and when I say you're ignorant, you start to throw fits of infantile petulance lmao.

When you intentionally make mention of "girls" (notably minors) making "even the strongest and disciplined guy to fall," and then intentionally follow it with trite, ominous warnings about men needing to "resist," what exactly did you think you were describing, ehn, Dtruthspeaker. Oya oo. Let us indulge you and play your cute infantile little game of verbal hopscotch. Abeg enlighten us, o bold faced rape apologist, if not sexual assault, which you have so vehemently denied, then pray tell, what kind of "falling" were you referring to?

Nnamdipapa:
Are you saying a girl can rape me when they mean me?

As in, take off my belts, pull my jeans, give me an erection and force me to penetrate?

So a minor can over power and do all these to an adult?
I am learning new thing on NL. I never knew.

E shock you abi ?

Welcome to Dtruthspeaker a.k.a FayaBall's twisted world, where underage, cognitively and emotionally under-developed victims of sexual grooming and manipulation, deserve to be raped and treated with scorn. What a sick and twisted perv mentality, Dtruthspeaker harbors, isn't it?

FayaBall:
I do not see any defence of rape here but rather a look into the girl and the fact that girls do pursue men and make them fall but nobody cares but to wholly blame the man and therefore even men themselves help girls in covering them up.

^^^Hmmm. Rape apologist doing what he does best. Hope Dtruthspeaker a.k.a FayaBall, with his dubious ethical disposition, won't be ousted publicly, and added to the long list of pervs, predators, deviants and rape enablers and affiliates as per Puff Daddy, Drake, DJ Akademiks etc etc that have been exposed within the past two years. Smh, lol.

FayaBall:
You mean you make a lot of noise filled with plenty plenty English and then abuses steeped in more English then you pour in diversions and more noise and on and on and in your mind you are making sense?

Sorry you sound like a hen does when it's being chased. No sense, just noise

Ah, I can perceive the stench of butthurt, wafting aimlessly, from your direction, as a noxious cloud of your desperation to tell sad lies, born from the fact that you tried, and failed to muster any poignant or even coherent counterarguments to salvage your tattered claims. Safe to say, lol, that your intellectual well has run dry.

Why not hop on back on your main moniker and actually prove that my arguments are false, hmmm? Or you would prefer to keep clucking and flapping about like this? I know that's more your speed. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to keep watching you meltdown for no apparent reason, if only to underscore the fact that, when it comes to the arena of logical discourse, you're little more than a featherweight, swinging wildly at shadows while I continue to dance circles around you .

Nnamdipapa:
I honestly don't argue with these people in matters like these. A minor is taken advange off by her teacher, the teacher should be in jail in saner crimes and the dude is defending the rapist.
So many potential rapist walking lose in Nigeria.

I quite understand your stance. As for myself, I usually refrain from indulging them as well. Although once in a while, I enjoy using simple logic to twist them in and out, till I've sufficiently had my fill and made them look stupid, lol.

MaxInDHouse:
Doubts comes to mind when the person in question has failed to fulfill promises he or she made in the past but as you can see for yourself Jehovah always do exactly as He says!

Of course why not? Jehovah's track record should be impeccable, only in the minds of the devoutly deluded, whereas reality shows that his "promises" remain as unfulfilled as a poor child's letter to Santa Clause .

Dtruthspeaker:
Here is a thread on statutory rape, yet not one comment calling for the heads of the criminals has been made

Your point?

Dtruthspeaker:
This is clearly you
Tamaratonye aka Jessica something ehen, Jessica rabbit and all the monikers you have used before now metamorphosed into "devil's wife". And one of the few people who think that arguments are established by noise making and superfluous words and attacking every statement made.

Incoherent ramblings and meaningless herrings that fail to address any of my rebuttals, having nothing to do with them.

“He who establishes his argument by noise and command, shows that his reason is weak.” Michel de Montaigne

...and yet, he who refers to Montaigne, in a bid to deflect strong and factual criticisms of his morally dubious stance, unwittingly reveals that his capacity for reason leaves much to be desired.

In all that rubble, nothing valid was said. It's just a dissertation full of complaints and empty retorts, noises and ad hominem. All invalid arguments.

...and yet you struggle to demonstrate why said arguments are false, as if to ambush I and other readers with the power of irony. Bless your heart.

I already said it at the beginning in my reply to Atk1nson, to the effect that statutory rape does apply to secondary school girls. And the way girls today have burnt it, it can never cover them.

^^^Rape apologist doubles down on his failed argument, lol, downplaying statutory rape, only to pivot to victim-blaming, laws and ethics be damned.

But, I know you did not come because of this, you just came to divert the attention of men from remembering to see that it was the girl who set them up and she sets up the man to get blamed. And the simp man even blames himself.

Ad hominems and lies, your favored sanctuary when you've predictably run out of steam, lol.

This is what you are trying to cover up and why you are making all these noise trying to cause distractions

^^^Rapist sympathizer devolves into mindless trolling when his points are discombobulated, smh.

You know why I enjoy joshing with you, Dtruthspeaker? You never fail to self-sabotage, courtesy of your ad hominems and aspersions, once again, graciously gifting me the ammunition to drive my point home. I truly, and frankly, express my undiluted gratitude and/or appreciation for your efforts good sir .

MaxInDHouse:
I accepted that but if you don't that's not my problem to me after following the process i have come to agree that He exists and He is GOOOOOOOOD!

So you've "followed the process" and found that your god is "GOOOOOOOOD!" - with precisely eight O's, no less! I suppose that's what passes for empirical evidence and intellectual rigor in your worldview, smh lmao .

MaxInDHouse:
To do that He will have to exterminate all your rulers {Daniel 2:44} because they are in control of the resources it's only the ones in our possession that we are using for our benefit! Isaiah 48:17

I'm rather doubtful that your god will be able to carry out this "extermination", if he can't even manage the far simpler task of ending your embarrassing misuse of scripture .

Dtruthspeaker:
You have just proven all I said to be true.😆

Smh, you know your argument has no legs to stand on, much less walk, when you can only validate your own opinions, by wilfully misinterpreting mine, lol.

See, the distraction and blame placing and Lies ALLTO COVER UP THE TRUTH I HAVE EXPOSED.

The only thing you've exposed, Dtruthspeaker, and carelessly if I might add, is the depths of your own moral bankruptcy, cleverly disguised as "righteousness".

The op even said they had sex and even went as far as sayingthat it was 'it was her first sex" as if he had seen her hymen before she went riding the teacher's penis

Is it most likely, my dear, that you maintain a vast and comprehensive ledger of the marital status, dietary habits, daily schedule and favorite hobbies of every random Jane mentioned on your TV, in the daily news? Or is this particular brand of voyeuristic scrutiny that you seem to indulge in, reserved exclusively for the teenage victims of predatory teachers? Hmmm? Perhaps it satiates your bizarre, unhealthy and insatiable appetite for moral outrage and self-aggrandizing tut-tutting?

Clearly no rape!

Well lookie here, seems I wasn't aware afterall, that basic human anatomy had gained veto power over ethics, morality, and criminal law. Abeg shed further light on the subject senpai, on consensual relations, and exactly how they function between minors and their authority figures in your strangely peculiar moral universe.

We live in a world where power and advantage is abused perpetually eg police keeping you at checkpoints or banks refusing to give you your money even if a part of it because of a PND (post no debit) or is it parents and guardians and older ones, tsk the very headquarters of abuse of power. Or is it bosses and employers who have tied job security and promotions to their personal satisfaction.

^^^Keen readers will note here that Dtruthspeaker tacitly shrugs off statutory rape and child grooming by religious mentors, strictly on the ridiculous basis that other forms of abuse exist. I deem it unnecessary to expose the moral bankruptcy of this affirmation, because the logic speaks for itself, smh. Moving on...

We are all living under abuse of power everyday with people using their advantage to their benefit.

Same spurious argument as above.

So the position of crime has moved to the actual commission of whatever is the crime eg being shot by policemen at checkpoints or your boss bashing your head with a tractor's spanner or a teacher factually raping a mature woman who is his student.

Pointless obfuscation. Two wrongs don't make a right, although, in this case, they do make a rapist and an enabler.

We are all judges and juries whenever a case is presented for our assessment.

Very well then, I hereby sentence your argument to a lifetime of irrelevance, especially as it only serves to misdirect, and steer the convo away from the abuse of power by authority figures, lol.

And I have already posited and proved that she is not a minor being that she is even in senior secondary school where it is known that girls there are no longer virgins even before reaching there possessing a very powerful will to have sex.

^^^That awkward moment when a shameless rape and misogyny apologist, thinks that sexual maturity is defined by class levels in schools, and not actual federal and/or state laws.

And a will showing her intentions to have sex with older ones eg Year 2 University students, Corpers, friend's Daddy's. The older the better. You no see Regina Daniels?

Threads like these prove this excuse is not viable at all
https://www.nairaland.com/7976593/alarming-rate-which-secondary-school#128046242

https://www.nairaland.com/7044040/female-students-giving-me-problem#111303961

Re: Corper Advises Men To Go For Secondary School Girls Because They're Naive by Nobody: 3:04pm On Apr 23, 2017
Secondary school girls that abort babies like say tomorrow no dey.

I heard of one that aborted triplet.
SS1 student for that matter.

That was then, secondary school girls don tear eyes o, coupled with the fact that most of them are looking bigger their than their age, you might end up being a pedophile.
(Quote) (Report) 105 Likes (Like) 5 Shares (Share)

You harboring any perverse fantasies, that should be of special interest to the FBI, huh? Because, my word, the ridiculous extrapolations you've scribbled, about teenage girls' sexual proclivities are pretty much about as scientific as astrology and twice as creepy, with this paragraph in particular, looking like something culled straight from the pages, of a predator's diary !

Clearly, your comment here is to do exactly what I said which is to distract and ensure that men are always blamed for all the crimes that you devils commit exactly like this devil.

https://www.nairaland.com/8080074/woman-kills-three-children-over#129751818

From your trite submissions thus far, a casual reader shouldn't be blamed, if safely concluding that you're operating under the quaint delusion that by virtue of being male, you should be exempt from moral responsibility. I daresay, inasmuch as you're clearly in the dark about what your subconscious has exposed about you, that your desperate need to defend the indefensible really speaks volumes about your own character, none of it being particularly flattering.

See the smear campaign!

She even openly confesses that She has sex with Satan, something which people have already observed

https://www.nairaland.com/7105728/genesis-bestiality-how-eve-slept#112430296

Rather than foolishly contorting logic to blame an innocent, exploited child, allow me to suggest re-calibrating and re-directing your indignation toward the actual perpetrator, abeg. Your endeavor so far, to rebrand statutory rape as a mutually beneficial arrangement, has been nothing short of a travesty.

MaxInDHouse:
Guy abeg reduce the grammar i know sabi all these English don't think i'm one of those your former pastors who always use their eloquence to intimidate their audience so speak simple and easy to grasp English Sir!

What i mean is there is no LOGIC or REASON that could uproot the hatred caused by racism and politics but the so called FAIRY TALES book has solved that in the midst of its true adherents globally.

Do you get it now?

I hear you. Abeg while you're at it, remember to sprinkle some pixie dust for us, at least to end world hunger and poverty. Joker .

MaxInDHouse:
You see what i mean?

Instead of asking for the meaning of that statement you choose to give it your own meaning and so you think you have solved the riddle!

Well it simply means He will choose the best way to prove Himself so all you need to do is watch out for how He choose to do so not you dictating how He should prove His worth!

I'm not surprised, that you religionists must try so hard to be clever by half, especially when pure logic fails to resolve your many obvious confusions .

So wish to convince me that your god is at liberty to arbitrarily decide the best way to prove himself, and I'm supposed to just take a seat, watch on, and applaud like a mindless drone? Nah, I'll pass on that one, my dear. Your god sounds like a dictator with delusions of grandeur, not a god that actually cares to establish a connection with the people he created.

Humor me though, if I'm not supposed to dictate how your god should prove his worth, then why, oh why, MaxInDHouse, do you suppose you have the liberty to dictate how I should interpret his intentionally cryptic, and evasive messages ?

What a vile, disturbing comment, you've penned here, Dtruthspeaker. An absolute displeasure. Let's see what nonsense is being proclaimed in this cringe-worthy attempt to justify rape and misogyny.

Dtruthspeaker:
First, you wrongly presume sex with her teacher was her first encounter.

Pointless deflection (or perhaps wilful misdirection), completely missing the point of OP's story. The main focus here is abuse of power by someone in a position of authority.

Secondly, since the sex was will full, then she is not a victim.

Only you are the judge, jury and even executioner too, abi? FYI, "Willful sex" doesn't automatically erase the fact that she was in fact, a minor, at least legally, and that the shameless perv was in a position of authority, and that he abused said position.

It is simply a case of going through the consequences of her action like the driver who mowed down soldiers yesterday. No one called him a victim.

This staggeringly tone-deaf, morally reprehensible position you've wilfully adopted, without any modicum of shame or empathy, on this topic is yet another stark reminder of the systemic failures in a society that enables perpetrators and insensitive victim-shamers such as your clueless self. The spurious comparison you tried to make with Khadija and the driver is so laughably disconnected, it begs to reason how any rational person can believe that the two events are similar in any way, form or fashion.

I must say, it's quite appalling that you would readily reduce the young lass Khadija's experience to a simplistic "consequences of her action" narrative, foolishly trying to imply, dishonestly and shamelessly, and with your woefully misguided machismo, that she was somehow complicit in her own exploitation.

And this is where you are seeing how God punishes fornicators in one the several ways in that they shall be in marriages made from hell.

Smh, lmao at this dude with his anachronistic mentality and his medieval moralizing. The times have truly left you behind. Don't worry, very soon, you will be advocating for public stonings, and even a good old-fashioned scarlet letter, for good measure .

https://www.nairaland.com/8079777/polygamy-gods-punishment-fornication-deut#129746722

He links readers to a spurious excerpt, cited from a flawed 3,000-year-old text to justify forced marriage, as well as his pathetic victim-blaming. Seeing as you're clearly stuck in the past, it should come as no surprise, that you would cling on to ancient misogyny, with such tenacity and lack of self awareness, smh.

Or if she runs away, extreme suffering and poorverty follows her. Like Hagar, no one will help her.

More shockingly misogynistic stupidity.

So, you can see fornication is one of the causes of poorverty because God punishes the fornicators and for women the punishment is times 2 or 3.

Here, he shows zero human empathy, uses religious dogma as a weapon, to justify the harsh, insensitive blaming and shaming of victims of abuse and circumstance.

And that is why you see women suffer much more than men.

^^^D-sanctimonious-Truthspeaker, at his finest, ladies and gentlemen, reveling in his self-appointed role as THE moral arbiter.

Smh, you should be ashamed of yourself, defending rape and misogyny with such fanatical gusto. Your response reeks to the high heavens, of toxic misogyny, victim-blaming, faux piety and sanctimonious pontificating, and a disturbingly warped sense, or view of morality -- no surprises there though, given that you take your moral codes from the same religious text that justifies slavery, genocide, infanticide etc etc.

============================

Now let us analyze, the psychological underpinnings of Dtruthspeaker's response.

1> His irrational eagerness to assume, and Olympic triple-jump into conclusions, the absolute worst about Khadija's character and experiences, betrays his deep-seated need to control others and judge them, because of fear of autonomy and agency of others, particularly women. You hate that women have their own wishes and can fulfill them by virtue of their own free will, don't you?

2> He's too thick and stuck in the past to see the forest for the trees, so he will deliberately miss the point, shifting focus away from the perpetrator's actions and onto the victim's perceived culpability in a perverse attempt to justify his concept of "authority".

3> He wilfully uses his religion, in a chilling and disturbing attempt, to rationalize manipulation and cruelty as divine punishments and justifications for Khadija's suffering.

I must confess though, that the most revealing, albeit disturbing, aspect of this individual's response is his covert sadism. He evidently takes great satisfaction in imagining Khadija's suffering, gleefully citing biblical punishments to enhance his ecstasy, and betraying his bizarre, deep-seated pleasure in the misfortune of others by callously dismissing her agency without a second thought.

Your comments on this thread, have exposed your psychological profile as a bully who deceives himself by cloaking his cruelty in the language of morality and scripture, blissfully and perhaps, wilfully unaware, as to the depth of his own psychological rot.

Cc: Nnamdipapa, Atk1nson

MaxInDHouse:
Hmmmmmmm, has this LOGIN and REASON of yours been able to uproot the hatred caused by racism in the minds of your pairs?

Well that is what the so called FAIRY TALES has done in the midst of millions throughout the world today. Psalms 46:9
God promised a time when people from different countries around the world will start paying attention to what is contained in the FAIRY TALES {Isaiah 2:2-3} and what will be the result? They will use what they found in it to settle their disparities peacefully among themselves divert their resources into production of food and information materials stop the making, buying, selling and usage of destructive devices and vow never to raise weapons against their neighbours! Isaiah 2:4
Do you think this could just happen by chance?

Those fairy tales, saccharine feel-good narratives that they are, may have momentarily distracted from racism, but they've also been co-opted by the devoutly dogmatic to justify it in the same breath. Meanwhile, logic and reason, have been diligently dismantling racist ideologies, mercilessly, one empirically-supported fact at a time, rendering spurious appeals to divine intervention utterly redundant and ludicrous, lol.

MaxInDHouse:
Hilarious indeed!

So you mean someone told you this and you took him seriously?

Come on my guy those are words to the misinformed religionists around you not what God said about Himself.

To Moses He said: “I Will Become What I Choose to Become.” He added “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘I Will Become has sent me to you.’” Exodus 3:14

Now what is the import of this statement?

The Israelites who were slaves in Egypt need to be freed but how? God CHOSE to use a stone to kill two birds by making the world's most powerful nation of that time release His people with trembling and fear. Egyptians and their King needs to see this God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in ACTION not physical but through what he chooses to become.

It's what He chooses (not what they ask) that both Moses, Israelites, Pharaoh had Egyptians need to know that truly He is the most high God.

So don't go about making demands thinking He must dance to your own tune rather follow what is stated in His words as promises and if such promises aren't coming to fulfillment then is the right time to say "He doesn't exist"

I like how you confidently present this hilariously circular proposition about your god and think you've made any profound theological insights. You make your god sound like a whiny little brat who can't even justify his actions and inactions. And lmfao at the Exodus 3:14 quote, that makes you think, for some odd reason, it makes any lick of sense, in this conversation. Proof-texting, as far as I've come to observe, is just another sign of the theological desperation that plagues you lot.

I do wonder though, if you've ever stopped to think about the implications of your god becoming whatsoever he chooses to become? I mean, if your god can just arbitrarily become whatever he wants, whenever he wants, then what do you suppose, Max, is the point of even having a concept of god in the first place? After all, chair is god, table is god, banana is god, toilet is god, bowl is god, fridge is god, cobwebs is god, babalawo is god etc etc lol.

CanadaOrBust:
There are a million intoxications, how come only "intoxication" with Christ Spirit inevitably works?

A million intoxications, yet only one is exempt from the scrutiny of evidence.

No other person tells you to allow them into your heart. With others you worship them and obey their laws

...another pointless distinction without a tangible difference. One form of submission is "allowing into your heart", the other is "worship and obedience". Hello, semantics, let me introduce you to sanctimony.

CanadaOrBust:
If life were not spiritual you may have a point. But life is SPITLRITUAL and it's been proven over and over, and people have testified endlessly that once they allowed that Spirit in, they no longer even have the desire for that alcohol or drugs or whatever it may be

Interesting that the only "proof" you need is the fervent testimony of people who've abandoned one form of intoxication (drugs, alcohol etc) for another: the intoxication of blind faith.

MaxInDHouse:
That's another problem you people often have: Translators!

God promised to prove Himself the way He will prove Himself that's the import of that verse so why not find out how He chose to reveal Himself instead of making demands?
To Him you don't even exist because His worshipers are fulfilling His purposes as He's guiding them by His Holy Spirit.
So if you don't care to know how He is achieving that your complaint is of no relevance to Him!

A.K.A >>>

"God works in mysterious ways, but only if you read the specific translation I prefer, follow my exact interpretation, and stand on one foot while singing kumbaya"

MaxInDHouse:
Which one you dey gangan?
You don't want my response or you want my response?
Anyway i can't blame you because we are not operating on the same level!

Not operating on the same level? Indeed, I'm up here with logic and reason, while you're down there with demonology and fairy tales .

gohf:
Look I was you without the arrogance, I was not born with knowledge so I read, I prayed, I worked hard silently for year, and I still do, do not make a mockery of those who actually asked when you don't even bother to search.

So you graduated from the School of Silent Suffering and Pious Perseverance. Big whoop! I'll have you know, though, that praying and fasting and studying and working hard in your theological echo chamber hardly qualifies, in any realm of reason, as honest and rigorous pursuit of truth. Isn't it funny, gohf, how clueless you are to the extent of your ignorance, even as you bask in the glow of your self-righteousness, huh? Had you any smidgen of intellectual humility and/or integrity, you'd have known that rigorous pursuit of truth involves challenging your precious beliefs and not just polishing them.

Where is your critical thinking and level of intelligence when you do not understand my words, when you call a simple analogy as "sugarcoating divine capriciousness with this charmingly naive analogy" but conclude that
"If divine predestination is true, then free will as a concept becomes an elaborate charade"
The entire essence of my position rests not on the metaphysical origins of "souls", neither does it rest on my presence at it's formation." Whereas you gave an analogy using wicked lectures and an unfair system.

My "wicked lecturers" analogy was supposed to be a poignant critique of the divine predestination model you presented. I merely highlighted its inherent injustice. The fact that you couldn't grasp the pertinacity of my illustrations only speaks to your simplistic reasoning, if I'm being honest. My analogies were clear and direct, unlike yours that were woefully misapplied. It's not my ignorance on display here, but rather your alarming inability to grasp the core argument here, that true free will can NOT coexist with preordained outcomes.

You cannot see the truth, if turn that which is good wicked just to win an argument, you cannot see if you call light darkness.

I'm sorry, gohf, but calling a spade a spade isn't "calling light darkness". I'm simply refusing to join you in playing make-believe with clearly stated definitions, lol.

You are shaking your head and not hearing what I am saying but the vibrations in your head as a result of the shaking. If you tried reasoning and looking for the truth without prejudice you might actually understand, but would a deep rooted hate let you. Is there a need to set anyone up to fail if they don't even show up in class in the first place?

It's not that I'm not hearing you, gohf, I hear you loud and clear. It's just that I'm not interested in buying what you're selling, lol. And as for the "deep-rooted hate" you've somehow ascribed to my comments, I think you're mistaking my disdain for your arguments with a personal vendetta, which I must say, betrays the state of your own mind in this discussion.

The likes of you cannot claim to be ignorant, whereas there is mercy for those who were not privileged to know, but then what about you. In a day an age when you can actually access a bible and READ it and STUDY it, you fail to do so, you can reach out and ask questions but you fail to do so. So you think the excuse is o, you are predestined to fail.

Trust me, I've read your Bible, in and out, from OT to NT, Genesis to Revelations, even the deuterocanonical books sef, all with a fine tooth comb, and my reading of the books is precisely why I'm not buying what you're selling, lol.

Cut the crap, you think I studied and worked hard because I had some special calls or that I am better than you. No, I am doing my best as I have nothing to lose, but then what about you what do you lose from doing what is right? Meanwhile you sit on your ass to mock those who do?

My friend, humility is not all about pretending to be self-effacing, while simultaneously implying divine favor in the same breath. As for what I lose by doing what's right, I'd readily confess and say, that my biggest loss has been having to endure pious, sanctimonious sermons from armchair theologians like yourself. Don't let me interrupt you though, please, do go on about how your god-driven bootstraps are the epitome of moral virtue. Kikikikikiki.

You want to know what is fair, that everyone gets rewarded for what they have done. And that's what the message is and what the truth is. If you then speak against this, who then is twisting the truth?

The universe, unfortunately, doesn't care about your notion of fairness, neither does it care for mine. It's just an indifferent, uncaring, unbothered expanse that operates according to its own laws and principles, damn your desires and wishes. As for twisting the "truth", I should probably remind you that I'm not the one who's been asserting that an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving and ever present deity has ordained every and all events in the universe, including the choices and actions we take as humans, and yet somehow simultaneously expects us to be held accountable for those decisions he has made us take. You're the one who has attempted (and failed) to reconcile the apparent contradictions here with amusing and bizarre logic twists that would impress even the most skilled contortionists.

You talk about "the ethical treatment of conscious mortal beings like you and me, here and now in the present." Meanwhile here is your so called bringing him under scrutiny, "Your god using human souls as "warning props" in divine performances, for the infantile and pointless purpose of establishing his supernatural authority is about as morally defensible"

Lmao . The only thing that can rival the grandeur of your deflections so far in our correspondence, is perhaps, the magnitude of your god's alleged ego. I actually wasn't scrutinizing the treatment of souls in some otherworldly, ethereal realm, but rather, the treatment of sentient living things by your god, right here, in this world we're living in. The quote you provided from my comments was intended to underscore the laughable absurdity of the actions of your god. So, humor me then, gohf, why the double standard? How is it your god get a free pass for behaviour that ideally would be deemed reprehensible if it were anyone else?

What give you the validation to perform such scrutiny, when from your obviously lack of response and lack of knowledge to answer my questions, you show that you are not a witness to how souls were made nor how they are treated. You cannot even admit that you do not own your own life, that in itself is arrogance, what is me saying you should also query whoever takes your life away too much for you?

So because I wasn't in the celestial waiting room when your god was supposedly doling out souls like raffle tickets, it means I'm now disqualified from discussing the ethical quagmire he's allegedly created for himself and his worshippers, abi? No wahala. In the spirit of disqualification, and faithfully abiding by your own logic, you are equally unqualified to speak on the matter as well, unless you've got a signed and notarized affidavit from the Big Man himself. Did you, gohf, perchance get a front-row seat to the soul-forging workshop? No? Then ogbeni, pipe down and stop getting your knickers in a twist over irrelevant nonsense smh, lol.

I don't own my life any more than I own the road in my neighborhood. But the fact that I don't possess ownership in it shouldn't therefore mean that I must not have a vested interest in how it is treated, and maintained, given that it is my only route to my place of work. A tenant might not own the house he stays in. Doesn't mean he should keep mum when robbers try to break in.

At this point, it's very obvious that you have a bizarre obsession with confusing metaphysical mumbo-jumbo, needlessly, with basic human decency. Whether souls exist abi they don't exist has a sum total of zero relevance to the question of whether conscious beings deserve to be treated properly and/or ethically. Let's do away with the unnecessary metaphysical baggage please, thank you, ser gohf.

Or at least if you are or were a lab rat, do tell us your experiences and stop making things up like a bad sci-fi script

I don't need to recount lab rat experiences to recognize a cage when I see one, and your entire theology has all the markings of a gilded trap.

if you indeed have clarity as you claim, why not provide evidence that you have been used as a lab rat. That is basic common sense for human scrutiny

Smh, the fact that you can't even grasp, or muster, the inherent exploitation in a so-called omnibenevolent deity creating sentient beings for its own purposes, only to punish or reward them based on arbitrary rules, speaks volumes upon volumes about the cognitive dissonance that has been inflicted on you. Open your eyes, indeed.

gohf:
even a fool finds amusing what they do not understand and that's understandable, it is stated in proverbs words which you are obviously ignorant of, but unsurprising you make assumptions with such arrogant confidence one would think you have knowledge of what you speak of.

I'm not surprised watching you dodge the point with this lazy hand waving. Your constant allusions to perceived "arrogance" on my end only serves to underscore the fragility of your position in this debate. Except, perhaps, you really do not know what that term omnibenevolence connotes, I don't see how you can deny the fact that the notion of divine mercy operating on a quid pro quo basis, is fundamentally at odds with the concept of an omnibenevolent deity. Obviously you would have no choice but to project your poor understanding on me, because I find it quite telling that you struggle to discern the logical inconsistency in attributing selective mercy to an all-loving being.

When was mercy ever stated to be unconditional

Playing dumb, are we, gohf?

The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever; he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him
- Psalms 103:8-11

For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations
- Psalms 100:5

Now I can already predict what your next argument might be to twist these verses, but I'm already prepared. I'll wait for you to present it and watch you, as you inadvertently dismantle your deity with the very words that escape your lips, lol.

Like I said, if you blind you wouldn't see the light nor realize the one who has blinded you and think to yourself that you were born that way and every other person is the same.

If only your divine luminary could illuminate this argument as clearly as you see my supposed "blindness".

But even though ignorant isn't it stupid to think mercy is unconditional when judgement exists. Why then does judgement exist? When you reject the truth and believe a lie, you birth a confusion that drives your mind to destruction.

Mercy transcends judgement, even in the realm of human justice, so your belief that mercy cannot be conditional in the face of justice is unjustified, and makes a mockery of what you think truth is. The concept of justice is significantly enhanced by mercy through dimensions of humanity and compassion being added to the process, which in turn, ensures that justice is not merely a cold and mechanical process, but one that takes into consideration, the full spectrum of the human experience and human potential.

FYI, judgement has been overriden many times in judicial systems, on account of circumstances and the complexity of human behavior. For instance, when mercy intervenes, we get reduced sentences, probation, or even a pardon for some defaulters. This is not to negate the wrongdoing of the defaulters but to give them the opportunity to right their wrongs and make amends.

Because mercy has a condition doesn't mean it is reduced to your petty nature of evaluating everything into materialistic terms.

So mercy, in your deity's economy, is meted out conditionally, and yet you have insisted that this somehow doesn't diminish its inherent value. Riddle me this then, that if mercy is indeed conditional, upon what basis do you differentiate it from, say, a reward or a recompense? And at what point does mercy cease to be mercy and become a transactional arrangement?

How absurd, should an unrepentant evil be given mercy unconditional just to justify the false god you created in your mind as what is acceptable to you. You would have to be an ignorant fool to be such a god, you would have to be blind and deceivable to let go of one because they say sorry whereas there hearts remain as evil as it was before.

I'm not sure how you managed to misconstrue my argument to mean mindless support of evil, but I'll try to make things clearer here. When I say unconditional mercy, I definitely do not mean turning a blind eye to wrongdoing. I'm simply alluding to the act of wilfully offering a chance at redemption and change. That's what separates a compassionate teacher from a ruthless disciplinarian with a complex.

Don't you agree? Such is foolishness.

Well, I'd argue that clinging to the notion that mercy must always be conditional is the true folly here, so maybe it's time we rethink who the real fool is in this equation.

But then again how can the judgement of the blind be compared to the one who actually sees

And yet you, the one with the stellar eye sight, keep bumping into every logical fallacy in the room.

even among men, you are free to make a choice but not free to determine the consequences of your decisions.

For someone with spectacular eyesight, you sure seem to have an overly simplistic view of concepts, eschewing depth and nuance. The consequences of choices is not the crux of the matter here, but the very nature of those choices as they appear, within the framework of divine predestination. You've only sidestepped the fundamental inconsistency here of an all-knowing deity who grants free will but preordains outcomes, to fixate on an irrelevant frivolity. If we have to conclude that divine judgment is based on choices that were never truly free, then we also just have to accept that it renders the entire concept of moral accountability meaningless.

How pathetic that you wrote of a spinning wheel and still do not understand such simple stuff, or in your terms, simple "concept"

It's partly funny and disappointing, watching you attempt to indict me for confusion, when your rejoinder is a breathtaking exemplar of obtuseness. My spinning wheel analogy, which was obviously intended to illustrate the arbitrary nature of your god's selective mercy, clearly whizzed past your cerebral cortex like an elusive will-o'-the-wisp, flitting tantalizingly beyond your cognitive grasp.

You asked me a question
"Picture a reality where firefighters only rescued persons deemed worthy only by the firefighters' arbitrary standards. How does that sound to you?"

Yes, a valid question that should, at the very least, make you reassess your position more carefully in this discussion.

Let me ask you can firefighters save those who have died to the fire?

Lol, this is why you shouldn't be making needless and fallacious deflections, because you mostly end up missing the entire point. We're addressing this issue on the fundamental principle of offering help and mercy unconditionally. Anything less is divine favoritism, not omnibenevolence, so this question is hilariously irrelevant. Firefighters are tasked with saving as many as are in danger at a given point in time, irrespective of who they are, because that is the very essence of their duty: compassion without any prejudice. If your god's mercy is as capricious as the arbitrary standards you defend, then it rightfully calls into question his ulterior motives, and hence, the true nature of his compassion.

The basis of your question reflects a wicked and selfish nature and is irrespective to making judgement.

Smh at you, charcoal, calling snow white, black. So my inquiries are, according to you, are "wicked and selfish", and yet somehow you are the one defending a god who seems to enjoy playing favorites. That's mighty rich, coming from gohf, who is ostensibly advocating for a deity that is supposed to embody unconditional love and mercy but manifests anything but.

Can a firefighter save you after you have set yourself on fire?

Abeg o, isn't it a true test of a firefighter's bravery to at least, attempt a rescue, regardless of the circumstances? Abi we are now relegating divine mercy to a spectator sport, as part of a sick joke? What are you even saying?

Even among firefighters they have limited time and would choose to save those who are savable within their power and means. Yes, it's a reality you can't accept because you have chosen delusion.

That awkward moment where gohf waxes poetic about delusions, blissfully oblivious to the fact that his words have unwittingly greased the wheels of my argument, making my case a fait accompli, lol. Of course firefighters are indeed limited by time and resources. Can you guess who's not supposed to be limited by such earthly constraints though? Exactly .

look it's understandable when you say primary declaration because you are ignorant of what is said and what is written, but such folly should not be the basis of your reasoning.

Come now, level with me gohf. Have you taken the moment to sit back and consider the possibility that your own cognitive biases are masquerading as divine insight? Or perhaps such notions are too heretical to be entertained by someone as yourself who clearly views himself as enlightened?

You speak of an author and forget that he was casted and chosen and accepted both the role and the script. Are you also ignorant of that common practice among humans, being ignorant of God's word is understandable but must you show such level of ignorance of what is common knowledge?

Tsk, you should really learn when and how certain analogies apply in an argument, gohf, to avoid making woefully incomplete analogies like this.

Yes, actors do choose to participate in movies, but they do so, armed with the knowledge and understanding that the script is already predetermined, and that their autonomy is strictly limited to their performance within the confines of that script, and so they can never transcend the script. And this, my good fellow, is precisely the point: their freedom is nothing more than an illusion, bound by the narrative already written by the scriptwriter/s. In similar vein, if God truly does preordain all outcomes, it's quite safe to surmise that our choices and decisions merely constitute performance in a play where the ending is already known by god, who is the author and the finisher. True free will in this context would require the capabilities to break the fourth wall, and alter the script to change the ending, to whatever we want. Unfortunately for us, predestination denies this possibility.

Once again, if divine predestination is true, then free will is a mirage, and the moral responsibility ascribed to human actions becomes fundamentally undermined.

Yet you say, "I call you arrogant simply because you refuse to accept a reality" when it is evident from your words that you don't.

It's the irony of you accusing me of arrogance for the mere act of questioning obvious theological contradictions, lol. What you confuse for arrogance, ser gohf, is nothing more than intellectual humility, acknowledging my ignorance, and seeking understanding, choosing fact over fiction and fallacies.

Amuse me a bit, since you find some of this cute and funny, you probably have a lot of mental imaginations to speak about.

Sure, why not? It beats being stuck on repeat, parroting Biblical rhetorics like a theocratic tape recorder.

Let me use your own words
Truth is established via the pursuit of knowledge... so my question stands, have you sought the truth or stayed within the confines of the lies fed to you or your own imagination. Listen if something you tells you what you heard is a lie, is it not common sense to verify and find out the truth.

You first, gohf. Why don't you go first? Tell us, have you ever explored reality beyond the bubble of dogmatic certainty you reside, refusing to question the status quo or challenge your own beliefs? Hmmm? I'd advise you to save your condescending and sanctimonious lectures about "truth seeking" for people who are too thick to see through your hypocrisies here. FYI, I've spent many years studying and questioning, and delving into a vast array of subjects, from physics, biology, psychology, philosophy, history etc etc and I've come to my conclusions based on evidence, logic and intellectual curiosity.

I do not put my faith in ancient texts and doctrines that exist for the exact purpose of stifling critical thinking. So don't come here and try to pull the wool over readers' eyes, pretending like you're a critical thinker, especially when your religion places special value and/or emphasis on the need for blind faith, while castigating honest intellectual inquiry in the same breath, lol.

Your entire belief system rests on the idea of wilfully accepting, without hesitation or questioning, the "truth" as revealed by your god. Where's the verification and/or pursuit of knowledge? Hmmm?

CanadaOrBust:
In Christianity you follow Christ, in Judaism you follow laws. In Christianity you allow Christ into your heart and that Spirit automatically directs you. In Judaism you do it by your own.power. Well, we've seen where it led Jews - they've disappeared!

^^^ Comments like this are poignant exemplars of the sort of theological triumphalism that gives most religions the bad rep they gets with critics.

It's funny though that you seem to think having an invisible friend guiding your actions is infinitely more effective than developing a healthy capacity for actual self-reflection and personal responsibility for your actions. No wonder most Christians enjoy nibbling at the specks in other people's eyes, but forget the massive tree trunk lodged in theirs, but oh well, what do I know, hmm?

Awwwn .

This was a wholesome read .

MaxInDHouse:
You think by your words that God must show you Himself, shey?

Guy stop being childish jọọ you must play by the rules He set to perceive Him it's when you follow such rules and find out that He doesn't prove Himself that you can say He doesn't exist!

So your god is no more "I Am That I Am" .

He has become "I Am That I Might Be, Maybe, If You Follow These Very Specific Rules..."

You got jokes bro. Kikikikiki .

MaxInDHouse:
And you've forgotten that people living back then has been brainwashed by the demons they worship to trust in their own weapons and strength against any God whatever you may say!

Lol, smh, you didn't have to respond, Max. Silence would be a more respectable retort than this funny response where you decide to take a drastic leap of faith, off the cliff of logical reasoning, lol.

Meanwhile, I'm interested to hear your opinion, Max, as an expert on demonology, on which particular brand of demon-induced brainwashing you readily and whole-heartedly attribute to, for instance, the impressive architectural feats of the ancient Egyptians, as well as their highly sophisticated system of mathematics?

Do you reckon it was Beelzebub's "Mathematics for Dummies" and "Engineering 101"? Abeg I wan know !

gohf:
it's cute that you say checkmate when you barely made move.

Very few moves are needed when the king is already in a compromised position, courtesy of his own mis-steps, ergo, the killer blow: checkmate in 1 or 2. Keep up .

1. God chooses because He is Judge and His judgement is based on this, blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. God said He has kept mercy for those who love Him. But you assume it is on a whim, unpredictable and impulsively wicked. So you who claim to judge him wicked, should those who are merciful not obtain mercy? Should they not be chosen for mercy?

Cute response, but a rather unfortunate one, because the Christian concept of an omnibenevolent deity overturns all your efforts at reconciling this conundrum. Such a deity would, by definition, be naturally merciful and forgiving, without condition, or expectation of reward. Thus, we would have to ponder the true nature of your deity if indeed his mercy is based on specific criteria as it undermines the primary declarations, made in the Bible, of his character. Picture a reality where firefighters only rescued persons deemed worthy only by the firefighters' arbitrary standards. How does that sound to you?

The very essence of mercy lies in its unconditional nature, but the way you've explained it makes it no less different from a transactional agreement, reducing mercy to a quid-pro-quo arrangement, where the grantor of mercy must expect something in return, and this is hardly indicative of the hallmark of a truly omnibenevolent deity. But god "keep[ing] mercy for those who love Him", made me chuckle though . Dunno why. Maybe it's because the concept sounds to me like a divine "spin the wheel and see what number you can come up with" type of game lol.

2. Before you write an exam, there already exists an answer sheet, before you write the exam, all possible answers were taught to you. Are those then who choose to listen, study and prepare believing what they were taught and applying them, called hapless?

Smh at you sugarcoating divine capriciousness with this charmingly naive analogy, that doesn't address nada, and isn't even applied properly lol.

Now let me help you: Playing along with your analogy through the lens of divine predestination, we can confidently assert that, in view of your funny logic, some students will be pre-selected to fail, no matter how studious or diligent they were before the exams. Pretty much the same as those wicked lecturers, who arrogate the full power of the success and failure of their students, to themselves. In this case, the hapless fellows, my friend, are those dumbass students who think their efforts matter when, in reality, marks have already been allocated, and the results fully prepared. Is this fair to you, gohf? By your own twisted logic?

If you were told a lie, blame the one who mislead you. If you want the truth ask and seek for it, do not assume in your ignorance to know the difference between God's predestination and the choice He has given to them. Don't you know that even those who were called may not be chosen, thereby granting an opportunity for others to be called. No you don't, if you did you would have humility and show honesty and not your arrogance from your ignorance.

True free will requires that the outcomes are NOT preordained. An actor has a little bit of agency in his use of words and improv, but does that mean he can transcend his eventual fate in the movie script? You deign to cast aspersions on me and call me arrogant simply because I refuse to accept a reality that makes a mockery of human autonomy, but who is truly arrogant in ignorance here, gohf? You say I should seek the truth, but do you even know what truth is? Truth, my friend, is not the exclusive domain of those who subscribe, unapologetically, to a particular set of beliefs. Truth is established via the pursuit of knowledge, intentional application of critical thinking, and developing a level of intellectual self-awareness to be able to question the status quo. If divine predestination is true, then free will as a concept becomes an elaborate charade, no matter how much philosophical window dressing you apply to deceive yourself that it isn't.

3. Do you even know what a soul is, and where is comes from? Where you there when your soul was to be formed? You speak a lot of rubbish then mention consent, who did you give consent to before you had this life of yours, or from whom would you quary for taking it away? Please open your eyes, look at the chessboard, you are yet to make a move.

The entire essence of my position rests not on the metaphysical origins of "souls", neither does it rest on my presence at it's formation. The subject under scrutiny here is your god, as well as the ethical implications of him using sentient beings as lab rats. And we're not talking about pre-life consent, but of the ethical treatment of conscious mortal beings like you and me, here and now in the present.

When the blind say, "as we can all see". Are you referring to the darkness within or your inability to tell that there's light outside of you?

I assure you, gohf, my clarity on the matter is as bright as the daylight you so fondly mention, even if your own logic remains in the shadows .

The lie that has blinded you, is it that there exists an get-out-of-moral-accountabilty-free card. the god that sold that lie to you is also the one that has blinded you

Then maybe you should read your Bible again, more carefully, and watch your infantile god in action as he always tries to eat his cake and have it.

Do you even know the game?
Are you playing chess or cards?

Chess o, Checkers o, Whot o, you and your god are dealing from the bottom of the deck !

gohf:
so because God is love, He cannot hate?

Bro, God hates, there are things He hates and those who unrepentant do wicked God hates such people they are His enemies. The problem is what if they ask for mercy?

God hardens the hearts of the wicked, those He has decided not to save, those He has decided are to be vessels unto destruction as a warning to others.

Three things, bucko:

1> If god chooses who to be merciful to, and who not to be merciful to, his then "mercy" is not mercy, but capricious and/or malevolent selection.

2> If god pre-decides who gets condemned to destruction at the end of it all, then human free will is a comically elaborate illusion, sold to hapless fellows like you as the truth.

3> Your god using human souls as "warning props" in divine performances, for the infantile and pointless purpose of establishing his supernatural authority is about as morally defensible as using real live human beings in medical experiments, absent their consent.

As we can all see, in your desperate gewürztraminer of nonsense, you tried to conjure up a get-out-of-moral-accountabilty-free card for your god and ended up presenting him as a narcissistic dungeon master who dishonestly rigged the game, long before it even began, only to turn around and blame the innocent pawns for losing. Well done.

Checkmate, theology .

MaxInDHouse:
You guys always amuse me thinking like all that matters is only what your eyes can see!

Funny how your deity's existence is always dependent on people's lack of perception. You guys make your god sound less omnipotent, and more like a metaphysical peek-a-boo champion who needs therapy to help with his crippling stage fright .