sino:


Lol, this didn't go the way you had presumed, and now you are like a broken record.

I have established what I had intended in my initial post, the rabbit hole you are already in!

Ok, you don't have any logical reasons why the winged rabbit isn't real? If so, how did you arrive that Allah exist and the winged rabbit doesn't exist?

No!

Ok, someone who sees a winged rabbit is psychotic?

If you know where you are and what I believe, then you are still asking a silly question. Don't you parade yourself with confidence on being a former devout Muslim?

So you just believe Allah is the first cause because you're Muslim? Is that your argument?

LabuleofNigeria:
I wont regard your post as Anti-Islamic belives or faith, because it seems to attack faiths & believes generally.

Since all you can do is to turn against beliefs and tag it as sheepishness or zombiesm in general.
Prove witchcraftry with pure science. Prove birds turning into human live with your pure science (I saw it with my eyes, i can take you to the scene).
Prove Magun with pure science.

If you cant, then swerve away with your post pls

And how taking me to the scene proves it really happened?

Well I also witnessed a dog turn into lizard.

LabuleofNigeria:

Glass bottles with cross inside has no sigle cracks & opening is narrow. Use your almighty science to prove it.

Science is not all !

Did you witness the cross in the bottle? Or how did you concluded it's magic?

check this, explain using science, I work at Matori, Lagos (i was at the scene & i also took pictures)
This happened at Cappa bustop.
https://www.nairaland.com/1942520/witch-bird-turns-into-human

You mean a pic of a mental unstable person is evidence of magic?

sino:


Of course you are not able to subject your claim to your skepticism, making a false claim and then doubting it would make you exemplify the psychotic disposition of a radical skeptic as I had proposed earlier. You know what you claim is false, I don't need to doubt it, I know for certain that it is false. When you doubt the fundamental knowledge, it predisposes you to a continuous circle of doubts... Thus, it is absolutely a waste of time to engage in argumentation on this...That is indeed what I have established already.

But I know you are trying to equate believe in God as same as your supposed believe in your imaginary friend, but that is an epic fail, cos you know your imaginary friend is false and you can't prove otherwise, whereas God's existence is not based on your imagination or that of anyone but rather the the fact that fundamentally, we are predisposed to believe this, just as we are predisposed to believe that there is good and bad (morality), cause and effect, actions and consequences etc. No amount of philosophical argumentations can affirm or negate these fundamental knowledge! That is why you are perpetually uncertain! It is that simple!

My question is very simple and no my claims aren't false. How did you know the winged green invisible rabbit isn't real? You can't just say it's false, explain to me how you know?

So?

Isn't that a symptoms of a psychosis?

That is still a silly question to ask a Muslim in an Islamic section!

Yes I know it's Islam section and I'm asking how you know Allah is the first cause? Any evidence or Allah spoke to you?

sino:

Although I have answered you multiple times, but let's turn this around...

Okay, I acknowledge as you claim that you are seeing an invisible green winged fire breathing rabbit, I can't argue with what you claim to experience and believe to be true! Can you now with your philosophical argumentations prove to me that what you see is real and not imagined?! I mean with your skepticism, prove what you claim here exist and real?! Do you doubt what you claim to see is real?!

It doesn't need proof, it's a belief.

No, he wasn't.

But he sees angels, rode on flying donkey and believe a plate of meal can talk.

Lol, this is a silly question to ask a Muslim In an Islamic section!

Ok, I assume your answer is Allah. So how did you know Allah is the first cause?

LabuleofNigeria:


It is called "Belief" and not "Zombiesm" as you claim
No doubts, Science is great and has brought many innovation and knowledge, but science is not all (I am a researcher too).

How can your allmighty science explain what happens in the Bermuda triange ?
or lets even start with this little bottle without a single crack, pls explain this with science ? i am waiting..

Lol.

So what makes you think the cross wasn't put inside?

whitelotus:


I just wen through that thread and It was an eyesore. Tintingz made a good point about the perfect creator, and you muslims went to attack him rather than addressing the points.
You especially went on a witch-hunt against his scepticism, as if scepticism is a bad thing.

The thread was filled with ad hominem, I had to keep up with the argument.

whitelotus:





Are you trolling or what?

Tintingz, is this the childish behaviour you normally put up with?

Lol.

He lacks proper logic tho.

sino:


This is a good example of your plight... You are asking me about what you know isn't real, because you just imagined it, now you want to argue about it?!

I know it's real, how do you know it isn't real?

Are you claiming to be seeing an invisible green winged fire breathing rabbit?!

Was your Prophet psychotic?

Yeah, this brings me to another fundamental knowledge you don't need philosophical argumentations for. If I told you that a carpenter with no medical help and training, performed an open heart surgery, would you believe?! How can you then claim that the first cause for all that exist can be anything, and going further to even say an invisible winged alien rabbit is looney and ludicrous!

You do not know, you are not sure, you are in doubts, and you are questioning everything... This is the perpetual uncertainty you are afflicted with and you my friend are on the fringes...

If there's a first cause, what's it?

Good day.

So from my previous arguments with Muslims here, many of them admitted Allah is both good and evil and not all-good. So this thread won't be about whether Allah is good or evil, we have to move on but if you still believe Allah is all-good and not evil you can check my previous threads and let's discuss. Here,

- https://www.nairaland.com/5973960/concept-omni

- https://www.nairaland.com/5971012/noahs-story-why-didnt-allah

- https://www.nairaland.com/5936571/paradox-dilemma-all-good-all-loving-god

- https://www.nairaland.com/5816542/god-aware-sin-continue-before

- https://www.nairaland.com/4501886/question-devil-month-ramadan

Now moving on to those that believe Allah is evil too, I have questions,

1. If Allah is also evil, why are you running away from Satan?

2. What moral example is Allah passing?

3. If Allah is evil, why then is he angry at evil people?

4. Why do muslims wants to reduce evil when their god is evil too and allowed it to exist?

Note, Again it's Muslims here that admitted Allah is also evil, I'm simply asking further questions.

sino:
@tintingz

I suggest you go through this thread again to refresh your memory and quit this false information you are parading here! While at it, read up on radical skepticism and educate yourself on Islamic approach to understanding knowledge in terms of critical thinking and deep reflections of the universe which revolutionised the scientific world!

You think the advancement in the world is based on this your daily criticism of Islam and Muslims?! I laugh in mandarin

1. Where did I ever mention radical skepticism?

2. What's wrong with radical skepticism?

3. Is skepticism a good thing?

And yes criticizing religion is part of advancement in world history. For example
Humanism

sino:


You know what you imagined up here does not exist, you don't need philosophical argumentations to know for certain that what you just imagined doesn't exist! Well except, you are really psychotic you may start employing all the tools of your radical skepticism to doubt...

When it comes to the existence of God, the creator of the universe, you have admitted in some of our exchanges that you do not know, and I say in that your response, there is that possibility of a creator of the universe! So God and your imaginary friend are not on the same level when it comes to what exist and what doesn't.

One of the certainty deep down in all individual for example, is the fact that it is impossible for something to exist in our world without being caused, so you will always look dumb if you for example claim that the iPhone had no inventor, you know, just came to existence by itself! You do not need philosophical argumentations to know that is nonsense, so how come you believe that your existence was not caused or the earth or the universe?!

How did you know an invisible green winged fire breathing rabbit doesn't exist in space?

Can we say your Prophet was psychotic when he sees angels and rode on flying donkey and even believe a bowl of meal pray for forgiveness?

- And correction at bolded, a first cause may exist(it can be anything, it can be an invisible winged alien rabbit), doesn't equate to god talkless of Allah. Allah is in the same category with the winged rabbit.

whitelotus:



Faith is a personal thing. After all, the prophet Mohammed's father was not a muslim.

You cannot force your family to believe what you believe.


Please, stop resorting to childish insults.

He's just a tout. He doesn't contribute reasonably to a topic. Atleast some muslims here contributed reasonably without going personal.

He talks about "frustration", we can see who is really frustrated.

IMAliyu:
Interesting enough, you could use some stories in Islam as analogies for skepticism.

The Islamic Ibraham for example didn't blindly worship idols like his people and family. He was skeptical and smart enough to knew calling something you made with your hands, your god was dumb. He began to search for the true God, by first taking the sun, moon and stars as his god, but quickly realized they were all temporal and decided that what so ever made the world and everything and was not temporary was his God and had faith in that even if he didn't know what it was.

Ibrahim skepticism didn't lead to enlightenment, he only upgraded to another version of what his family believed in, it's like moving from believing in Batman to believing in Superman. The polytheists believed their gods communicate to them, Ibrahim believes his god communicate to him they're both in the same circles of delusion(no offense), he even wanted to kill his son because a voice spoke to him in his head, imagine someone doing that today.

Using Abraham for skepticism isn't a good example.

IMAliyu:
Really depends on a lot of things.
If a man came with the exact same things you mentioned, today then it's easily no.

But if a man like Muhammad were to be born in this day and age with the current global culture where slavery is no longer globally accepted, a better understanding of the world, science and technology exists etc. He would probably not hold thesame opinions or actions which you mentioned.

Based on his personality and skills, (pre prophethood) which he was introverted, smart, constantly meditating and probably trying to figure out the truth. He could had been either a philosopher, theorist, idealist or mystic, or a combination of these.(Makkah era)
And would try to preach/spread his ideals if he was dissatisfied with society and if he was to become successful and did gain a following (based on his later life, Madina era) he could become a revolutionary leader like in he did in his time.
And depending on the size of his following, he might become someone similar to revolutionaries like Vladimir Lenin or Che Guevara someone that believed in his own ideals and was willing to take up arms for them and to add he was surprisingly skilled in military/fighting tactics.

Either way having the specific set of traits and skills that Muhammad had and to accomplish what he did are rare. And when people show up who posses similar traits and careesma, people are always drawn to them. They can either become good leaders that inspire people or genocidal dictators.

Either way it would depend on what this new Muhammad is preaching, whether it's reasonable or not.

Good point.

So in nutshell someone like Muhammad today would be updated version?

Someone that would be scientific if he appears today is someone like Plato, Aristotle, I don't think someone like Muhammad will be scientific or very intelligent, maybe a smart person yes.

budaatum:

Messianism is not just about "the second coming of Jesus", but about the salvation brought about by his second coming, which is not promised in Islam, but since you show no basic understanding of Islam I can't expect you to understand that.

Muslims believe in Messianism not just the Christian version.

Like Fela Kuti once said "Zombie O Zombie". People who follow follow without any doubt or questioning are called zombies, this zombiesm exist among Muslims.

Islam is base on faith and beliefs and you shouldn't question the belief, you must follow everything the religion said, this is similar to cultism, in fact religion is cultism.

Now the question is, should one be a skeptic or zombie?

Let's see

The great philosophers, physicists, scientists were skeptics, these people knowledge really have impacts on human civilization and knowledge, for there to be civilization and advancement in knowledge there has to be skepticism, questioning and doubts, these are the fundamental principles in science and philosophy.

Even the medieval Muslims that contributed to science were skeptics as they love the ancient Greeks works and they worked on it but at a point in history the Muslim community had problem with this ideology(as it conflicted their faith) and the era of the Muslim scientists ended, the Europeans took up this movement till date and they're far more developed today. Many modern research comes from the west, why? Because they're skeptics, they question things and do research on it.

I once argued with a Muslim(a pro zombiesm) who believes skepticism is bad and can even make one go psychotic(if I could remember), he claim being skeptic can make one insane. Well I won't say he was completely wrong, people may develop mental problems trying to figure out a problem due to overused of the brain, the brain is like an engine that needs a break too. It's well known in the medics not to over stress your brain. So does that mean we should throw away education, science, philosophy? Definitely not.
Developing a mental issue can be a family history/genetic or your life style and personality, it does not negate the benefits of being a skeptic which we can see it good results around us.

Study shows that religion is also linked to delusion, most religious people show symptoms of delusions.

So should we follow his "Zombiesm" ideology?

Let's see,

Assuming everyone follows his "zombiesm" ideology can there be any development in intelligence, knowledge, society etc? Definitely not, one will be contented with whatever he/she is indoctrinated with or taught.

For example, I told you unicorns cause the rain to fall and leprechauns makes the rainbow, I claim this is the truth, someone who doesn't question nor skeptical will just accept this as true and that's it, no doubts to propose a research, this is something he will believe and hold to even if you show him evidence.

This ideology above is very bad and shouldn't be encourage.

I watched a video today where a woman bought watermelon and it burst itself like explode(not the bomb explosion type). She then started praying and saying it's the work of her enemy. I was so curious on what could happen to the watermelon to explode itself, then I did a research and found out watermelon has "explosive gene" and another cause is the chemical used to fertilized the watermelon. I also discovered that this has happened to many people like farmers. Now if I'm with the ideology of not being skeptical, I would believe it's some kind of an enemy attack and be a superstitious zombie.

So in conclusion, the ideology of not questioning and doubting is a very bad ideology which should never be encouraged, in philosophy there's epistemology, ontology etc where it encourages questioning and being skeptical.

So should we follow skepticism or zombiesm, which ideology is good for human development?

budaatum:

No tingz. Islam does not teach messianism. Islam teaches self salvation, so I will not waste my time telling you anything of the sort.

You will go pick up your Quran and read it to understand if you really want to know. You must do the work to get the gains is the lesson being taught with "neverland".

You don't even know anything about Islam, Islam teaches Messianism (the second coming of Jesus).

But my post isn't even about that, I'm simply saying if someone like Muhammad appears today (assuming no Muhammad in the past but future), would you follow him?

budaatum:

Am I to understand that you would allow a self certified surgeon perform surgery on you?

Or is it your claim that others would, or should?


Do you really expect that I would bother to take you up the mountain again, tingz?

Sigh.

sino:


@bold, I had one time interrogated his purpose on here with his numerous posts (which are mostly questions), and he answered that he would like us to be skeptics... Aside from some of his inane responses and turning logic on its head, he is fully into the rabbit hole of radical skepticism! For every rational explanation you provide, he is skeptical and would bring up more doubts, and the process would continue, except you leave him at his state of perpetual skepticism. Once the fundamental knowledge about our reality are in doubt and such doubts have metamorphosed into a 'belief system', then there is no amount of philosophical/rational arguments that would satisfy such an individual.

As Muslims, we can only present the true and
fundamental knowledge of God, our purpose and reality based on the Qur'an and the teachings of the Prophet (SAW) to these individuals, it is left to them to be sincere with themselves or continue in their state of perpetual uncertainty.

My disposition to atheist who won't stop arguing and always seek physical evidence for God, or something of sorts, at the end of the day is the verse of the Qur'an below :

"Do they [then] wait for anything except that the angels should come to them or your Lord should come or that there come some of the signs of your Lord? The Day that some of the signs of your Lord will come no soul will benefit from its faith as long as it had not believed before or had earned through its faith some good. [b]Say, "Wait. Indeed, we [also] are waiting[b]."" (Qur'an 6:158)

Epistemology, Ontology Philosophy Is not your thing obviously and not most Muslims thing.

Well there's an invisible green winged fire breathing rabbit in space, don't doubt nor question it, it's there.

Rashduct4luv:


I think your existence can also be described as a "Red herring" too!

Oh really? how?

budaatum:


Everything listed was what you believe Muhammad did because you lack understanding.

Ok, make me understand, tell me what he didn't do as mentioned in OP?

budaatum:

All of them are a misunderstanding of the teachings of tge Prophet Muhammad, and if you really want to know, I suggest you go read your Quran, after removing the ignorant bias that appears to blind you to understanding.

Mention them.

I do not know where you listen to your prophets that have "same theme" or any prophets at all to be honest, but in my own opinion, it is very unlikely that anyone with a brain in their heads would call anyone with "same theme", a prophet, so, I strongly suggest you change prophets or change brains.

Prophets call themselves Prophet. So if someone as mentioned in the OP appear today that he's a Prophet would you follow him?

Your "modern illustrations" show a lack of understanding of the original teachings of the Prophet Muhammed.

Tell us what you know?

Listen to your ignorance! Did not the second day follow the first and the sabbath come after the sixth day?

Are the "Qur'an and Muslims beliefs" God?

Is Qur'an not the word of God?

budaatum:

No you didn't!

You set up some straw man then began an ad hominem attack against your own straw.


The Straw Man (also "The Straw Person" ""The Straw Figure" ) : The fallacy of setting up a phony, weak, extreme or ridiculous parody of an opponent's argument and then proceeding to knock it down or reduce it to absurdity with a rhetorical wave of the hand. E.g., "Vegetarians say animals have feelings like you and me. Ever seen a cow laugh at a Shakespeare comedy? Vegetarianism is nonsense!" Or, "Pro-choicers hate babies and want to kill them!" Or, "Pro-lifers hate women and want them to spend their lives barefoot, pregnant and chained to the kitchen stove!" A too-common example of this fallacy is that of highlighting the most absurd, offensive, silly or violent examples in a mass movement or demonstration, e.g. "Tree huggers" for environmentalists, "bra burners" for feminists, or "rioters" when there are a dozen violent crazies in a peaceful, disciplined demonstration of thousands or tens of thousands, and then falsely portraying these extreme examples as typical of the entire movement in order to condemn it with a wave of the hand. See also Olfactory Rhetoric.

Not even close to strawman, again it was a question and I didn't posited to it. Everything listed was what Muhammad did, so if such person existed today, would you follow such person? It's a simple yes and no and also give your reasons, it's an open question!

budaatum:

I clearly know quite a lot more than you know.

Mention things that prophet Muhammad didn't do in the OP list?

budaatum:

I am amused how you failed to see that the 11 points you state above are what you believe about the Prophet Muhammad. Your misrepresentation shows you lack understanding.

Then you amuse me more by assuming the Prophet Muhammad who appears today will be like the Prophet Muhammad whom you believe appeared in the past, which shows you lack an understanding of time.

Then you ask if we would willingly forget all we have learned since the Prophet Mohammed appeared in the past and become like the people of the past; asking, basically, if we would deevolve.

We are not people of the past, tingz. The people of the past had much less knowledge than we have today and we have evolved in thought too, and a Prophet Muhammad of today would have had to also evolve to be any sort of Prophet at all and will not be like the Prophet Muhammad of the past, and if you bothered to scientifically use your own senses and evolve in understanding you will not misrepresent the Prophet Muhammad as you have in your false claims above.

I clearly said Someone like Prophet Muhammad, that's the character of the person the OP is describing, but for argument sake let's me ask,

Questions,

1. Point out the misunderstanding of Prophet Muhammad in the listed?

2. How did you know such similar Prophet cannot appear today? Atleast Most Prophets have same theme.

3. You can clearly see I was using modern illustrations. Or you didn't see that?

4. Does God work with time? If so, why isn't the Qur'an and Muslims beliefs updated?

AntiChristian:


Even if your Muslim fams are aggressive that doesn't mean all of us are!

I simply asked questions, how my family come into this is something you're yet to tell me. If you can't address the topic kindly swerve.

true2god:
I would rather follow Hitler.

Another worse human.

budaatum:

You projected bad beliefs of your own first.

You clearly don't know anything about Muhammad.

AntiChristian:


Pele, frustrated soul! Just don't commit suicide.

Why are you trying so hard to project me badly.

LordReed:


This is how I see his posts:

[img]https://media./images/f0d9ee5052ef2d4086c0e3dd68fa1c08/tenor.gif[/img]