₦airaland Forum

Ibime:
Jesus said there will always be poor.

What is your point? You haven't answered the question. If you say you believe in God but not the Christian God, I would have no wahala with you. However, you have not explained why all these carefully calculated measurements that allow life on the earth exist - can you verify that all these precise forces and measurements are all down to random occurences? Answer the question and stop dillydallying.

Look, the fact is that we were all put here by someone. Creation is proof of a creator just as much as a cake is proof of a baker. Only a fool says in his heart that there is no God. Whether or not he is the Christian God or not is irrelevant. Everybody just serves him in the different ways they know how.

Well, this is called the fine-tuning argument (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/tuning.html), which basically states that most of the physical parameters are tuned to enable life on earth and the this universe was created with us in mind. Well just consider the following;

The universie about 14 billion years old and extremely extremely extremely vast. Only in our own galaxy, the Milk Way, there are 100 billion stars and more that 100 billion galaxies in the universe. So how significant is the earth is this infinitesimally small speck in the universe? Our earth is so tiny that even in our own galaxy, if the earth were to disappear, it will cause but a tiny ripple in the structure of the galaxy.

Of all the vastness in the universe, how much of this is conducive to human life? How much of the surface of the earth is conducive to life? In view of the fact that life cannot be sustained in the overwhelming majority of the universe, how can it be claimed that this vast universe was created with us in mind. How do you account for all the wasted matter, supernovae, blackhole, pulsar, galactic collisions that would distroy all life in an instant. In fact, our nearest galactic neighbour, Andromeda is hurtling towards us, the Milky Way and is bound for collision at some point into the future. This will almost certainly destroy all life on earth, if it has not already been destroyed by the inflation of the sun.

The earth is only about 4 billion years old. So the universe must have been around for about 10 billions years before our earth was formed. Why would god wait for that long to create his special creature? And only to destroy them again with solar inflation of galactic collision?

The fact is that the fine-tuning argument is a red-herring in the debate. It appears as though all was fine tuned for life. However, life exploited the "accidental finely tuned " universe and adapted itself to it.

Further, it has been shown by some cosmologist (Victor Stenger et al) that the so-called finely tuned parameters are not in fact as finely tuned as claimed. Studies have shown that a similar universe like the current one would still have formed for quite a wide range of the so-called finely tuned parameters.

olabowale:
@Tpaine: You ask too many questions. But you have failed to answer any. Is that the way the evolutionists handle hot topics? I said that I agree that the process of creation could be termed evolutionary. The reason is that whatever is deemed to be created, it starts from the most basic machanic period of it, the beginning. It goes through a process of stages, whereby it could be termed evolutionary, until the final product comes out at the end of the process. I have always used human reproduction as example, starting from Sperm and Egg as the beginning elements, which ends up with the newly born baby!

I never seek to avoid answering questions directly. Where I don't know the answer, I say so. That is the honest way to discuss. You asked about the name of the first humans - I said not only do I not know, but it could not be known.

I asked you about the name of 100th generation forebear- supplied no answer, but gave the name of the mythological humans Adam&Eve.

I asked about the 31st generation from Adam&Eve - you supplied no answer.  If you don't know, how do you expect me to know the name of the first human.

You say, things go through a process which could be termed evolution; Were humans the result of this process?  If not, why?  Did this process take place in Paradise where you claim Adam&Eve were created?

olabowale:
@Tpaine; I will give you the names of my forebearers; Adam and Eve. These are even further than 100th generations in my past. Can you provide the proper name of your evolutionary forebearer's name?

Listen, you want me to dance to your tune? It will not happen! Evoltion in the way you are seeing it did not happen. Period. And by the way when I have sometime, I will respond to your above analysis.

I thought you said you accept evolution as a fact of nature? Are you retracking from that position, or did you mean to say it affects everything but humans?

OK, now that you believe Adam&Eve were your forbears, who are the offsprings of the 31st generation of AE children?

Ibime:
And to answer all your questions - do you not think somebody calculated all these physical phenomenom such as the force of gravity, the speed of light, the distance of the earth from the sun, the atomic mass of the sun - do you not think that somebody calculated all these things before he made the earth - surely, you are not too stupid to think that they occur randomly. This is only the physical level, not to mention the subconscious and mental level - face it, God is the greatest scientist.

In that case, why has humanity been immersed in ignorance, stupidity, illness, and suffering almost all of humanity when the knowledge to cure all these ills exists in god? If he is so clever and powerful why does he not just fix the world he could not get right in the first place. Ah, I forgot that he enjoys seeing us suffer and die as he gets a great deal of satisfaction from that.

olabowale:
@Tpaine: Your understanding of creation is strictly through the Biblical expression. Your mere mentioning of Garden of Eden provide me with that belief from you. I happen to be a Mu"slim and we in Is"am do not subscribe that Adam and his wife Eve were created in any place on this earth!

What is known to us, and it is clearly provided in the AlQur"an, is that Adam and his wife, Eve were created in heaven, but outside Paradise. However when the devil disobey God by refusing to prostrate his face to Adam, and after Eve was later created, both man and woman were erraded to Paradise to live in. They were warned to not even go near a particular tree in the Paradise, because they would err through it.

However the Devil was determined to lead them astray. He suggested by whispering into their hearts to eat from the tree. This act of disobedience was why Adam and his wife were ejected from Paradise and made to descend to the earth. Of course, they have tasted the goodness of paradise, where there was no toilling. The same Paradise is the final abode of those who will receive the Mercy of God, on the day of Judgement.

Now, to explain the variations of the so many skin color and futures among the Children of Adam and his partner Eve, all we have to do is to go back to the creation of Adam. We the creationists accept that Eve was created from a part of Adam. Even in your "why he creationists are laughed at" video series, it was mentioned as well that they may even agree that mankind (Adam) was created from the soil. I guess they are even using it to foster their Evolutionist agenda. We all agree that the Earth contains many varied types of soil, by coloration, fineness, and even moisture contents. The soil that went into the creation of Adam is from this earth, and it consisted of all and every type of gradation. It is no wonder that his offspring can vary in coloration, physical features, etc.

Why is it then possible that in Nigeria, alone, you have so many different skin coloration, if you will deal solely on evolution? From my family in the west, you have from both sides very light skin to dark skin. My father was almost like a mulatto. Yet there was no foreign blood in him. You will find very light skin part of Niigerian east of river Niger. What happened to the hausa people who are very red, yet they have only African blood, and no direct trace of Arab blood? The reason is that God is able to remind us, by bringing out any and all types of human color through the same parent.

I have a Moroccan family, where you will find from the same parents, people who are so European looking, to the Arab looking and to the black African looking. All are from the same mother and father. How do you explain that through your evolutionist concept? You just can't! My two children are interestingly different looking in color. I am just the same with my siblings. It simply points out to the power of the Creator, and not the power of the Evolutioner! There is no Evolutioner, except that the Creator who exists allows things to evolve; as in sperm and egg to fully formed human!

Yet again you own story not not hang together. I thought you said Adam&Eve (AE) were created in Paradise, which is not the earth. So were they created in Paradise out of soil taken from the earth. Why did god not use the soil from Paradise?

The largest amount of gene variable in the human population exists in Africa, the cradle of humanity. The further away you go from Africa, the less the variations become. So it is no surprise that you would find all sorts of features in Africa - from the lighter skinned, dark skinned, brown, "red", straight-hair, curly-hair, tall, short, etc, etc. So in Nigeria, you have a population taht displays the large gene variation. That is what explains the diversity in you community.

Have you ever asked yourself "why is it that the native South American are generally ligher skinned that Africans yet the occupy the same global latitudes?" Think about it and let me know your answer.

Starting a religion has become the new 419. Religious institutions are given a great deal of privileges, respect and financial concessions from government all over the world. These religions and their leaders have become pseudo-politicians and social commentators, influencing policies from the USA to Nigeria to South Africa to South Korea. Some of these evangelical ministries are accountable to none but the top leaders of the ministries. The likes of Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, John Hagee, Creflo Dollar, TD Jakes, Joel Olsten, Oral Roberts etc and now multi-million dollar operations with the lead ministers benefiting luxurious living from the coffers of the ministries.

These ministries promise ethereal afterlife rewards as stated in the tenets of their religions. But also promise reallife changes in circumstance to believers, simply for believing in their dogma. This genre of teaching leaves the followers to all manner of manipulation and exploitions, with the leaders growing all the more richer.

Why are people so easily sucked into this brand of mind exploitation?

You may want to have yourself medically checked to confirm (or refute) the miracle. Check out the article on this link; http://csicop.org/si/2002-05/i-files.html

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/benny_hinn.htm

kola oloye:
please ask God to show a sign or proof, i`m sure HE will.

Why do I have to ask him? What sort of book would you expect to an omniscient, omnipotent being? Perfection and flawless no less. Is that what we got?

The prevalent of clerical abuse of children accused of witchcraft highlights the dangers we face in Africa thru lack of education

Any answers?

olabowale:
@Tpaine: And since crude oil is fussil/biologigal waste; eg humans, I wonder why we do not have too many places, in Africa (Southern Africa, in particular), where there is a great deposit of this stuff? It will be a natural thing that since you said that human originated in Africa and thereby migrated from there, I will take it that it started from south Africa.

Before they could begin migration, they must populated the land enough, and almost depleted the resources. It must be that it is the search for resources that will bring about migration. But to actually begin migration and survive the dangerous journey northward, they must have been on the in the south african land for tons of centuaries. There must have been a good number of death! But yet, up to now, south africa has not been considered for oil exploration consideration. Why, because the truth is that southern africa was not the place humans first inhabitted, thereby populated the region.

The place in question is the part of africa east of Suez Canal. This is the region of Africa you have signs of earliest human inhabitation of the earth, based on the fossil fuel reserve, etc.

olabowale:
It will be a natural thing that since you said that human originated in Africa and thereby migrated from there, I will take it that it started from south Africa.

Look, my word is not "gospel" and you don't have to believe it. Why don't you research the subject. You can start by watching the videos or reading the books I suggested.

The is gross inanity, it is unbelieve. Why don't you think a lot more and base your assertions on facts?

olabowale:
@Tpaine: And since crude oil is fussil/biologigal waste; eg humans, I wonder why we do not have too many places, in Africa (Southern Africa, in particular), where there is a great deposit of this stuff? It will be a natural thing that since you said that human originated in Africa and thereby migrated from there, I will take it that it started from south Africa.

Why do you think there is a link between the regions of human habitation and the location of petroleum reserves? Are you suggesting that petroleum products are derived from the decomposed remains of human? If that were true, what would that mean for your theology?

For a start, human are a much much much later introduction into the landscape and their remains would not have formed parts of the constituents of petroleum fuel. Check this out;

Most geologists view crude oil and natural gas as the product of compression and heating of ancient organic materials over geological time. Oil is formed from the preserved remains of prehistoric zooplankton and algae which have been settled to the sea (or lake) bottom in large quantities under anoxic conditions. Terrestrial plants, on the other hand, tend to form coal. Over geological time this organic matter, mixed with mud, is buried under heavy layers of sediment. The resulting high levels of heat and pressure cause the organic matter to chemically change during diagenesis, first into a waxy material known as kerogen which is found in various oil shales around the world, and then with more heat into liquid and gaseous hydrocarbons in a process known as catagenesis.

Geologists often refer to an "oil window" which is the temperature range that oil forms in—below the minimum temperature oil remains trapped in the form of kerogen, and above the maximum temperature the oil is converted to natural gas through the process of thermal cracking. Though this happens at different depths in different locations around the world, a 'typical' depth for the oil window might be 4–6 km. Note that even if oil is formed at extreme depths, it may be trapped at much shallower depths where it was not formed (the Athabasca Oil Sands is one example). Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum

olabowale:
Before they could begin migration, they must populated the land enough, and almost depleted the resources. It must be that it is the search for resources that will bring about migration. But to actually begin migration and survive the dangerous journey northward, they must have been on the in the south african land for tons of centuaries. There must have been a good number of death! But yet, up to now, south africa has not been considered for oil exploration consideration. Why, because the truth is that southern africa was not the place humans first inhabitted, thereby populated the region.

You are right in suggesting that migration is caused by pressure on local resources and also the natural need to explore and investigate. Archeology and anthropology does not yet have all the evidence for the migratory path. But genetically this is now well understood. In fact the genetic evidence trumps all the others, as it is written the constituent of the human body and will not disappear as long as humans exist.

I would suggest you spend some time and research the subject before you make such illogical and incorrect statements.

Have catholics heard a lot more from god than the others?

vanariso:
@ tpaine

You re a smart man,u re confused,but u got to have faith to believe what i ve say, Firstly,faith is beleiving in what u can't see ,prove or figure out.Thats why i need to ask if u re a phylosopher or a scientist.If u re then don't read this cause they always need proof to beleive.

My faith preaches this, Man has been created in a hasteand we were given free will to choose from write and wrong.Thats why we are different from the angels.They don't have any choice than to obey God.They ve been created to do only good.They can't do bad and so is satan and his cohorts.they can only do evil and never good.
Thats the first stanza, check out the 2nd stanza,
God is the all knowing .He knows all thats in the deepest part of your heart and that includes what you re going to think tommorow and forever.He knows which way u will tread and what will be.Infact ,he knows when, how and when a single leaf drops/will drop from a tree.
So , u see he is given u a free will but he knows what u re going to do.

So what do u make of that other than to keep being with him.God is the one that keeps beating u and u must keep running towards cause he is the only one that can protect you.

He already knows your strenght and weaknessess and then tries u.9abraham----------

Well, I trained professionally as a mathematicial and engineer but would describe myself now as an amateur philosopher.

I spotted many contradictions in your post, but let's just look at one;

You said angels can only obey god. How come Lucifer and his cohorts did not obey god and later became known as the bad guys?

I have similarly been worried that the low level of "worldly knowledge" amongst the faithful. It is really shocking indeed. These people feed off the trash they get give at churches and never read any other material.

"Faith is the guardian of ignorance. Reason the cynosure of progress and enlightenment".

I do not know the answer. Supply me with the answers and I will add them up.

Monstrous

Evil

Barbaric

Wicked,

vengful

inept

underachiever

malicious

imhotep:
@tpaine
There is nothing religious about those questions.

You are thrashing about again. Did I say they were religious? I said not all scientific questions currently have answers.

Is there any independent way of knowing the bible is the word of god? Currently, the only evidence is contained within the bible itself. But this is circular reasoning. For instance, the Egyptian Book of the Dead also claims to contain the words of god. So both books make the same claim. Which one is to be believed?

Many other civilizations have had one form of book or oral tradition preserving the words of their god(s). Do all of these have valid claims as representing the word of god?

Most bibles today have 66 books, but there are bible (catholic bibles) with 72 books. Has god spoken more to the catholics than to other denominations?

What about the newly discovered gospels of Judas, Mary Magdalene, etc? Are these also god's word? How could one tell if a book is inspired by god or not?

imhotep:
@tpaine.
These questions are highly scientific. Don't dodge them.

Not all scientific questions have answers. Sicence is not a dogma, as religion is. That is the mistake u are making.

If you can supply the answers I shall add them to the list

olabowale:
@Tpaine: Who was that first african man? Could you give me his proper name? You are Tpaine here. Thats a proper name. Give me that of the African man. While you at it, give me that of the first African woman, since the man did not do it all by himself? Or is this possible my your own theory? What exact spot of Africa did they live in? From your evolutionary theory, what exact spot they they become the modern man from that last link? Who became modern first, the man or the woman?

I hope you will not use Adam and Eve, because as for me and those who believe in creation, say that Adam and Eve were the first to be created. They did not come out of creatures who metamorphosised from something cruder, before!

Finally which part of the earth is the oldest, emerging from under to above the water surface first? That place should be the place where modern man appeared, first! I am a creationist and if you know these things your understanding may begin to shift to real understanding, and not remaining in hypothesis of evolution!

For goodness sake. How do you expect anyone to know the very first persons' names. Can you give me the names of your foreparents to the 100 generations?

Tasma:
Think the question actually is, if God already knows what you will do, then do you really have free will?

Tasma, thankx for restating the question. A lot of people have simply missed it.

In a the modern world, the creationist have been so mal-educated they could not formulate simply hypothesis to investigate the following;

1) A clearing in the woods

You walk 10 miles into a dense forest and find a clearing in the woods where once there might have been a tree. But the tree is nowhere to be found by simple naked-eye inspection. There were no eye witnesses of witness the falling and rotting away (or carting off) of the tree. Say, you arrive at the scene 1 - 5 years after the clearing appeared. Is it possible to formulate a hypothesis to determine what happened at this location?

2) The site of a car crash.

You are a forensic car accident investigator. You arrive at the scene of a hit-and-run accident, with the car having hit a road-traffic installations and there are no eye-witnesses. The culprit car has been driven away from the scene of the crash. Is it possible to formulate a hypothesis to explain the plausible set of explanations as to the damage to the road installation?

3) You drive your car to the petrol filling station to top up on fuel and your 10 year old child asks you, "Daddy, where does petroleum fuel come from?" Can you formulate a hypothesis to investigate the process of the formation of petroleum fuels?

4) You take you prospective wife to a jewery store to put an engagement ring on her finger. Your partner is not very knowledgeable about sciences but she adores diamond. You also adore her; so will not begrudge her ignorance of these esoteric matters of sciences. Upon arrival home, she is delighted with the diamond, but asks you how these stones are formed. Can you formulate a hypothesis to investigate the formation of diamonds naturally? Do you think these natural processes could be artificially mimicked in the labs today?

Maybe they are keeping the commandments in Exodus 34 rather than the ones in Exodus 20.

BTW, the Exodus 34 commandments were the ones in the Ark of the Covenant, so that is the one everyone should be keeping; not the Exodus 20 commandments.

imhotep:
I have been saying --- evolution is a religion, a dogmatic religion with many many dogmas and scanty evidence.

Its followers are scientists urging us to accept their dogmas based solely on their scientific authority.

If anyone has to make an act of faith, it is better to believe in the One God that in the confused theory of evolution.

Sort this one out. Why did the Catholic authorites accept evolution? Are you saying there is now two "religions" within catholiticism?

What really makes us human?
Does thinking that we are different makes us human?

If the Neandarthal had a culture,
And buried its dead like we do,
Is he human?

Is it language that makes us human?
Cognition is the ability to reason,
But are human the only cognitive being?


You go to you doctor,
Who tells you are expecting a baby.
You later find the baby is malformed,
With only a half developed brain and body.
Is that baby human?
The doctor advises a termination,
Would you terminate the pregnancy?
Have you killed a human?

You wake in the morning
You may have a choice of which side to leave the bed
You have a choice as to what to have for breakfast
You have a choice as to whether to go to work
You have a choice as to what you do for the rest of the day
You are under no duress

Were any of your choices pre-determined?
If you got dress for work but later
Changed your mind and stay home
What was the choice in there?
Was it the dressing up, was it the change of mind?
Could anyone one have known that
You were going to dress for work
And then change your mind?

It is said God is omniscient
Could he have known about
Your choice before you?
If he knew, were you locked into
The path he set out for you?
If you were locked in by god's knowledge
Then you had no choice.
Then you had no free will.
Then free will is an illusion.

Ujujoan:
Be careful with the words you use against the Men of God.

Incase if you don't know, the mains basis for the beliefs in Christianity if faith - Being sure of what you are yot to see.

My God tells me if you have faith as tiny as a mustard seed, you can say to the mountains, be thou removed and cast into the sea and it will obey you. The only people that benefit from miracles are those who beleive in it!!

Untimely death my dear, spiritually speaking, is when you leave this earth without having the chance to make peace with your creator. Thats eternal damnation for you!!!

People die everyday, but the painful thing about death is knowing you wont spend your enternity in heaven. Even if you die at the age of 150, a sinner, in the eyes of God, its untimely, why, because you never got round to repenting. It means that EVERYBODY has that priviledge. Dont waste yours Tpaine!!!

These so-called men of god are conmen and exploiters of the credulous.

By your defintion, the majority of people who have ever lived (200 billion) would end up in hell then.

Think of all the hundreds of thousands of children who die yearly without giving their lives to god. Would they spend eternity in hell? What a wicked thing that would be!

Ujujoan:
My dear, when you sin and ask God for forgiveness, he forgives you because of his love for you. He dosent expect you to go tommorrow and comit that same sin. But he's grace has been made sufficient for us that even when you do that and sincerly repent of it, he still forgives you.

You'd have a clearer picture of it if you relate it with the r/ship a father has with his son.

If you steal you father's money, and repents and seeks he's forgiveness, any father, seeing your true repentanct will definitely forgive you. Even if you repeat it the next week, he might punish you for it, but he'll definitely forgive you IF HE SEES TRUE REPENTANCE. Dont you think it'll be kind of stipid to say, 'dad, since I comit this sin always, how about you granting me enternal forgiveness, so I wont have to bother you agin?'. What will you, as a father say to such a child??

But my father is not omniscient whereas God is. An omniscient being must know that I am going to sin again. If It knows my future intentions, that cannot be free will, because he has pre-determined it.

luvus:
hi


yeap laf at the creationsit lol

Is this karma? Science makes no jurisdiction over this area, as far a I know. Why do you think this should have a link with evolution?

Does this have a link with the theory of disease, or gravity or the law of supply and demand? If it does, why don't you question these other well established theories?



ok enof of the lafta. so if evolution can not lay hold on issues of karma, and evolution assumes it doesnt exist [/b]and [b]cannot define it [/b]yet we [b]see (bot u and me) it at work whether we choose to believe it or not; then what right have u to determine based on the limitedness of man to determine that GOD doesnt exist?? because u can't scientifically prove it so it doesnt exist

u see evolution is still a farce, what it can't prove, it assumes doesnt exist and that is way too bad,

ok how can u diddrenetiate between good and evil, is there a scientific parameter
lets say osama is bad, how do u know he is bad, u scientifically prove his bad
ie scientically;

osama is bad because x*2/hu6*pot-56=bang bang ^2222222222222222222222222??


so u see so many things like karma that evolutionist can only rattle but it continue to exist irrespective of whether u choose to accept it or not. period

abi, how old u dey? you need to go back to school, u know. my goodness, are u able to function in this world?

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=119070.msg2045396#msg2045396 date=1205248103]@tpaine

I an not sure that you are interested in my answer. All the same I will give a brief answer hoping that it will induce others to some reflection. It is the human spirit ( which you do not believe exists) that exerises the gift of free will. The brain in most cases is oblivious of this decision of the spirit. When a decision is taken by the spirit, God knows because that spiritual decision uses the power of God and the entire manifestation of such decision is known to God. If however a human spirit have not already taken a decision, then there is nothing to know. Why will God know of something that does not exist? However note clearly that it is the spirit that takes the decision not the brain. A spirit takes a decsion and for most human beings it takes years, even millenia for such decisions to be apparent to the human brain. Because the brain is unware of what the spirit has decided, many a happening appear incomprehensible to the brain. Without digressing much, when a person sins and his or her spirit asks for forgiveness, God will forgive such a person because a human spirit cannot lie, it can only ask for forgiveness when it truely meant it. It will also recieve the power to repent and sin no more. However, most of us ask for forgiveness with our brain and since the brain lacks a direct connection with the power of God, the forgiveness asked for is not truely meant, the sins are not forgiven, neither is the power to conquer sin recieved. Thus for most of us is a viscious cycle of sin, pretended asking for forgiveness, more sins until the sin overwelms the spirit and it finally dies.[/quote]how did u come by this information. is there any ways this could be validated?

Ujujoan:
Read my post again, my emphasis is on untimely death.

Children dying of whatever conditions has nothing to do with my post. My emphasis is on the tragidies that befell those who openly mocked God.

Go on one of those your studie and you will discover that most people that die of one illness or the other is strictly because the don't believe in the scriptures. Not only that, they don't make claims to their heavenly promises. I've seen people cured of all type of ilenesses (including AIDS) by the power of God. God is not going to force his blessings on you. You have to ask for it.

What is an untimely death? if you got caught in an earthquate or sumani or car accident or plan crash; is that an untimely death.

Think of all the air crashes, car accidents, violent tornadoes that happen yearly. Are you suggesting that people who believe are less likely to be involved in this sorts of incidents? I would like to see you evidence.

You heard of a guy called William Branham? Check out his life story.

I would also like to see like evidence for the cure for AIDS. Do you know how many people who attend the crusades of scam artists like Benny Hinns, Kenneth Copelands, Hagins etc have been medically testified as being cured through non-natural means? NONE. In fact, people have suffered adverse consequences from relying on these charlatans.

Scaremongering again. Show me someone who would never die.

How about all the sick children in my local hospital, dying of some of the most painful and debilitating conditions. Why did your God inflict that on them?