₦airaland Forum

imhotep:
Jesus resolved this sabbath issue 2000 years ago. Give us a modern problem to ponder.

There u go; https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-120623.0.html

One of the holy commandments of the Lord, thine God is to "keep holy the sabbath day". Is this a minor commandment or a major commandment? Or in fact, is the concept of minor/major commandments flawed? Is the sabbath commandment on the same level the commandment not to kill.  Which of the ten commandments have been abrogated by God and which not.

The sabbath commandment has got really serious consequences for anyone who falls foul of it, not least at the cost of flouting one of the other commandments. Let's look at Numbers 15: 32-36;


32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.


If this commandments has got such serious consequences might it not be wise if we knew exactly when the sabbath is, in case we break it. Is it a Saturday or Sunday?  And why is it that the society is not by and large observing this little of god's laws. In fact, it is being flouted with impunity in most of the civilised world.


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Some more in the Bible on the Sabbath

Should we keep the Sabbath?

[table]
[tr][td]Yes[/td][td]No[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]
Exodus 16:29
    The LORD hath given you the sabbath. ,  abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Exodus 20:8
    Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exodus 31:13-15
    Six days my work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 34:21
    Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.

Exodus 35:2
    Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Leviticus 19:3, 30
    Ye shall ,  keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 23:3
    Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD.

Numbers 15:32, 36
    And they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day ,  And all the congregation brought him without the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

Deuteronomy 5:12
    Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.

Isaiah 56:2
    Blessed is the man ,  that keepeth the sabbath.
[/td]
[td]Isaiah 1:13
    The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity.

Matthew 12:2
    Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

John 5:16
    And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Romans 14:5
    One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Colossians 2:16
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat and drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon; or of the sabbath days.[/td][/tr]
[/table]
Source: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/sabbath.html

According to the bible we are all either descendants of Adam or Noah. If this theory is to hold water it must account for the various human local and regional diversities such skin tone (and other subtle differences such as sickle cell anaemia, enzyme difficencies etc). One of the prevailing biblical accounts for the descent of African is that Africans are offsprings of Ham, one of the children of Noah.

This is what one Christian apologist on this forum (4HIM) had to say about it;

4Him:
The children of Ham are the forebears of the Africans.

Apparent, this theory hold that Noah had children of various racial hues and that Ham was the African looking child. On this theory, how would one account for the following;

The Native Australians
The Japanese
The Chinese
The Europeans
The Arabs
The Indians
The Native Americans


Useful resources:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Genes-Show-it-We-Have-All-Come-From-Africa-79306.shtml
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Genes-Show-it-We-Have-All-Come-From-Africa-79306.shtml
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977284953&grpId=3659174697249927&nav=Groupspace
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/health_science/daily/20080222_Genome_studies_show_humans_are_all_mixed_up.html

4Him:
here is why it is a redundant question:

Mixed race individuals like Tiger Woods are descendants of whom?

Are you suggesting the the Native Australians are mixed race? What races are they a mix of?

4Him:
Stupid question.

Why is it a stupid question? Who are the Native Australian, New Guineans, Native Americans descended from. Your biblical theory must have a way to also account for them, if it can account for Africans?

4Him:
The children of Ham are the forebears of the Africans.

Are the Native Australians, New Guineans also descendants of Ham?

The religionists love nothing more than debating aspect of their various theologies either against their fellow religionist or against members of other religions. Thus in the Christian community, the Catholics and the Evangelical would be at loggerheads about issues like the status of Mary, Immaculate Conception, the status of the Pope, baptism of infants, Trinity etc. In these debates, the various groups have nothing but their various history canon/liturgies etc to hurl at each other. Little in the way of real factual evidence is used.

Similarly, the Sunni and Shai Mos-lem also trade theological bouts across one another with nothing more than myths and traditions.

Across the religious platform the Christians and Mos-lems would trade blows on aspects of theology and traditions with little or no supporting factual evidence but myth, tradition and superstition.

In fact, this debates are nothing new in the religious landscape, for we read in the bible how Jesus was at constant acrimony with the Pharisees and Saducees over theology. So these have been going on for at least 4000 years. Jesus was constantly reprimanding the Pharisees for not obeying the laws of Moses (calling them hypocrites), much as these latter would have love to re-interprete these laws.

Can any of these debates be categorically resolved one way or the other if the only epistemic device employed is faith and myth and superstition? I douby it.   Not only do I believe that these tension could be abated by the used of more reliable methods of epistemic investigations, I also believe that such method would put pay to these senseless subscriptions to the supernatural.

4Him:
The lineage of Noah.

According to the bible, everyone is descended from Noah, isn't it?  So what is special? Which of Noah's offsprings is the forebear of Africans?

4Him:
you're pretence at scholarship is pathetic. Did you know that Arabs are the direct descendants of Ishmael?
Go study about the arab invasion of north africa . . . and while u're at it please look into the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians. I'm sure history, hieroglyphics and anthropological evidence will show you they were in no way caucasoid but nubian.

Who are Africans the descendants of then?

4Him:
good, don't let me see you hypocrite coming here to ask about biblical "contradictions" EVER AGAIN if you can't even answer the simplest question about your own fraud of a book.

Rubbish. Nigeria is blessed with oil too, are we descendants of Ishmael?

Did the descendants of Ishmael reject the "prophets"? Why did they have not one single prophet for 2600 years?

Patent Rubbish. No evidence of Ishamael and a large scale migration from Middle East to Tropical Africa. On the other hand there is genetic evidence that humans migrated from sub-saharan Africa and Southern Africa to populate the earth.

imhotep:
Addressed by Aquinas 850 years ago. Old question.

Great response!

What would count as evidence that God(s) does NOT (or don't) exist?  Would such evidence be in the scientific (naturalistic) or supernatural realm?

If scientific evidence are acceptable, could someone provide the properties and attributes of such gods so that we may be able to assess these in the light of the current scientific method. It would also be most useful if such attributes are relatively tractable and that there are independent means of verifying the means by which we come to know these attributes.

If supernatural evidence are acceptable, then we would also like to know what constitutes the supernatural realm and how this realm could be detected (or sensed) without the use of the primary human senses (sight, feeling, taste, hearing and smell) and technology.

Ujujoan:
Am saying that as christians, we believe that he's ways are not our ways. The basis of our belief is the existence of God and the blessed trinity. The bible was written by humans, under the unction of the Spirit. But The church identifies 'mystries', and thats where our faith comes into play. I cannot question God, or his word, I can only try to live by his commandments and look forward to an eternity with him. You should too you know!! I also believe that on that day, all things will be made clear, for everyone to see. Thats the whole point, BELIEF. It free for you to choose.

I heard this testimony of a lady who the doctors confirmed barren. She had a complication and her womb was removed. The doctors told her it was impossible for her to have a child. I mean lets face it, where will the child grow? But nothing is impossible for God. Today, she has a son, born from that same womb that was removed. How about that? She refused to accept she was barren, and she ended up not being. Faith transcends all human reasoning, psycology and facts. It's just beleiveing!!

Do you really believe her entire womb was removed?

Is there evidence that her womb was removed?

Did she regrow a new womb?

Is she still in possession of this new womb?

Was she able to produce other babies from this womb?

Do you believe this story as FACTUAL or do you take on FAITH. If you take it on FAITH, just as you presumably accept the virgin birth, then it may be "real" seen thru the spectacles of FAITH not not real looking at thru the spectacle of reason. You see what I mean, don't you?

In one of my threads, I posted a series of questions about basic science to eveluate respondents' understanding  of basic scientific concepts. This time, I am going to turn my attention to Christianity and the Bible. Below are a number of questions to find out to what extend we understand the bible;

1)  In what chronological order did god create the following artifacts; woman, plants, animals, man and the sun?

2)  The commandments are given in Exodus 20 and Exodus 34. Which version contains the following commandments.  "Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God. Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk".

3) Which Book of the Old Testament contains the following words; "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death." ?

4) Which OT character sacrifice his daughter to the Lord, after the Lord help him defeat his enemies?

5)  When was the book of Daniel written?

6)  What combination of animals were taken into the ark? How long was the flood event? What type of bird was sent out by Noah?

7) Which of these dates is likely to be the date of Jesus' birth; before 4BCE or after 6CE?

8-) Who were the administrative rulers of Syria in the 1st century CE?

9-) How did Judas Iscariot died?

10-) When was Jesus crucified? On the day of passover or the day before passover?

11-) Are rulers of countries ordained by God?

12-) After Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus, how long was it before he went to Jerusalem to see the other disciples?

13-) Are women saved through childbirth?

14-) Is it OK for women to braid their hair?

15-)  How many people will be saved on the day of Judgement?

16-) Who are the Sanhedrin ?

17-) Which of the following historians are you familiar with; Josephus, Philo, Eusebius, Tacitus?

18-) Which of the word in the NT did Jesus personally write? How did the apostle get to know Jesus's word in the Garden of Getsemane given that they were all asleep when Jesus was pronouncing those words at a distance?

19-) Was Jesus related to David via his mother Mary or his father Joseph?

20-) When did Christianity become the religion of the Roman empire and which religion did it replace as the official state religion?

21-) What is the "abomination of the desolation" and its contextual traditions?

22-)  Did the Apostle Paul ever meet Jesus in the flesh?

23-)  Would Jesus have been an observant of the Judaic laws (dietary, hygiene, sabbath etc)?

24-)  Would Jesus have been circumcised?

25-) How is Jesus' portrayal of Hell similar or different from the Old Testament (Judaic) portrayal of Hell?

26-) When did Jesus say he would return ?

27-) In which book of the New Testament did Jesus say the following "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7  As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near."

28-) When was the first Church Council held and under whose  auspices?

29-) Do you know any passages that are currently classified by bible scholars as "interpolations"?

30-) Where about in the bible is the concept of Trinity expounded?

31-) Where in the bible are the following mentions unicorn, dragon, dinosaurs, satyr? Which of these beasts are real and which mythological?

32-) Are there any fulfilled prophecies? Are there any failed prophecies?


There you go.  If you have got some more I like to add them to the list.

@ahwuyen,

Please can you take this simple test;

1-) What is the speed of light? How long does it take the light from the sun to reach the earth?
2-) What is the difference between a theory and a hypothesis in the scientific sense?
3-) What is the germ theory of disease, the theory of gravity?
4-) What are stromatolites?
5-) How old is the earth?
6-) What is the end-permian extinction and what proportion of life went extinct during this event?
7-) How long ago were dinosaurs wiped out?
8-) What are asteroid impact of the earth?
9-) Can you give a rough estimate of the number of stars in our galaxy, the Milky Way?
10-) Do you know what chromosomes and DNA are. Can you name any "genetic disease"?
11-) On the whole, do you think science and technology provides solutions to human problems?
12-) Have you ever visted a museum?
13-) What are fossils?
14-) What is the geological column?
15-) What is the theory of plate tectonic?
16-) How is petroleum fuel formed and how long is the process?
17-) What do you classify as natural and supernatural events?
18-) In the event of a medical emergency would you rather rush to a scientific medical institution or a supernaturalist?
19-) What are Neandarthal?
20-) What is a supernova?
21-) Do you what the Hubble Telescope is?

Looks like there are more people out there who need to take this test!

ahwuyen:
Am deeply sorry for you. bicos you are not interested in getting to the root of the matter with an open mind. please do go over these few pages if you care to know.
The Bible:
God's inspired message to man.
Scientific evidences to prove it!!!

The Bible is the world's all-time best selling book. About 2.5 billion copies have been printed which are available in over 700 languages. Although the Bible has enjoyed such vast distribution and attention, it is read relatively little. Perhaps part of the reason the Bible is so neglected is the many doubts people have about this unique book. If the Bible came from the mouth of God, then the scriptures are believable when they speak of Jesus Christ and accurate when they touch the realm of science.

All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work . (2 Timothy 3:16,17)

The word "inspired" (theopneustos) in the original Greek language literally means "God-breathed". When the Bible claims to be inspired, we understand therefore, that it came from the mouth of God. It is God-breathed, inspired.

But a skeptic will say, "Everyone knows the Bible was written by men! The book of 1 Corinthians, for example, was written by a man named Paul. After all, the very first verse bears his name as the author." In reply to this we answer: "Yes, 1 Corinthians was written by Paul. Notice however, what Paul said in chapter 14, verse 37: "the things I write to you are the Lord's commandment." Paul knew the source of his writings and understood that he was like a pen in the hand of Almighty God. We must not view the Bible as the word of Paul, Peter, or Jeremiah, but rather, as the message God revealed through these men just as it is written in Jeremiah 1:9,

Then the Lord stretched out his hand and touched my mouth, and the Lord said to me, 'behold, I have put my words in your mouth'.

The Bible writers were not like news reporters giving their personal interpretation of events they eye-witnessed, but were divinely guided as 2 Peter 1:20-21 says,

Above all, you must understand that no prophesy of scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

God and man worked together in writing the scriptures. However, in this work, God is the author who dictated the message, and man is the writing instrument. Men were guided or inspired to write the exact message God wanted recorded in the Bible. Now that we have a fundamental understanding of inspiration and the origin of the Bible, let us look at some evidence of inspiration.

"We constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God's message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God" (1 Thessalonians 2:13).
Scientific information in the Bible

Although the Bible is not primarily a book of science, it does contain numerous scientific facts. We laugh at the scientific knowledge of just a hundred years ago. If man alone were the author of the Bible, we would expect to find many such humorous errors contained in it. However, if we examine the scientific data of the Bible and find it to be accurate to present-day knowledge, then we have powerful evidence for divine authorship. The scientific facts we are about to examine are not only accurate, but were revealed thousands of years before man discovered them for himself. The Bible does not contain any errors typical of the time in which it was written. Would we expect anything less from a book written by God?
The earth is round!

You may be surprised to learn that the Bible revealed that the earth is round. Job 26:10, Prov 8:27, Isaiah 40:22, Amos 9:6. Today, we chuckle at the people of the fifteenth century who feared sailing because they thought they would fall over the edge of the flat earth. Yet the Bible revealed the truth in 1000 B.C. 2500 years before man discovered it for himself!
"Paths of the sea"



Matthew Maury (1806-1873) is considered the father of oceanography. His wife was reading a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression "paths of the sea" in Psalms 8:8. Upon his recovery, Maury took God at his word and went look ing for these paths. We are indebted to his discovery of the warm and cold continental currents. His book on oceanography is still considered a basic text on the subject and is still used in universities. Maury used the Bible as a guide to scientific discovery. If only more would use the Bible as a guide in their personal lives!
The Hydrologic Water Cycle
Revealed in the Bible: Job 36:27-28

The water cycle was not fully understood until about 30 B.C. by a Roman engineer named Marcus Vitruvius. Yet every aspect of the water cycle was fully revealed to mankind in 1600 B.C.! The Bible's description is in perfect harmony with modern science. Eccl 1:6-7; 11:3; Job 26:8; Amos 9:6. Vitruvius was 1600 years too late!
6 DAY CREATION,
GOD WAS TAKING HIS TIME

If a fair maiden kisses a frog which instantly changes into a handsome prince, we would call it a fairy tale. But if the change takes 40 million years, we call it evolution. We often hear that science has proved evolution. Nothing could be further from the truth. You see, people often confuse scientific fact with scientific theory. Current scientific theory does conflict with creation. But the facts of science do not! There are many scientists who fully accept Biblical creation. Surprised?

The theory of evolution says that over millions of years simple life forms (one celled creatures) slowly evolved into complex life forms (fish), and that one kind of animal evolved into another kind (ape to man). Genesis, on the other hand, says that all life forms were created in six, 24 hour days. Genesis chapter one states 10 times that life forms can only reproduce after their own kind (ape to ape, man to man). All the observable facts of science strongly support the Bible's claim that it is impossible for one kind to reproduce a different kind. The truth is, there is absolutely no tangible evidence to support evolution from any area of science, just theory and a wild imagination!

But if the Bible is wrong and man actually did evolve in small graduations over a long period of time, we should find ample fossil evidence of links in intermediate stages of transition. For decades, evolutionists have searched for fossils of these links to prove biblical creation wrong. Although millions of fossils have been unearthed, not even one missing link has ever been found. Has it ever occurred to you that this is the reason why scientists refer to them as missing links?

Even Charles Darwin realized the difficulty missing links gave his theory. Darwin wrote in his book, Origin Of The Species, "Why, if species have descended from other species by fine graduation, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion, instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?" The reason we have never found any missing links is quite simple. Darwin's theory of evolution is wrong!
Experts tricked for 40 years!

In 1912, Arthur Woodward announced to the world that he had found the missing link between ape and man. Piltdown Man, as he called it, consisted of a jaw bone and a piece of skull which he estimated to be over 500,000 years old! However, in 1953, when the new fluoride dating process was applied to the bones, scientists were shocked to learn that the jaw bone was less than 50 years old. Only then did they notice that the bones and teeth had been treated with salts and filed to make them appear old and primitive. In other words, Piltdown Man was a complete fraud. Take note Bible student! The world's foremost scientific experts had been fooled for over 40 years! (Read 1 Corinthians 3:18-20.) For almost a half century, evolutionists pushed Piltdown Man in the faces of Bible believers as scientific proof we evolved from apes! Some proof!

In spite of over 100 years of intensive searching, the only place you will find a missing link today is in the colourful imagination of an evolutionist. Museums certainly don't have any! "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen 1:1) Have you ever considered that when God created the universe in six short 24 hour days, He may have been taking His time?

The Bible is a reliable book of genuine divine prophecy. You can trust it!

The evidence presented here is just a tiny portion of the proofs available to establish the divine origin of the Bible. Yet, they are more than sufficient to prove the inspiration of the Bible. There will always be men who scoff at the Bible. You, however, can be confident when you read your Bible that God is the author, for it is written:
"We constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God's message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God" (1 Thessalonians 2:13).

This is so silly it hardly need a response. Abi, how old you dey and have you ever read any science books?

ahwuyen:
@ow11
So many things were not written in the bible bicos no book on earth will contain it. what was written is enough material needed to lead any serious minded person to God. the missing days in calendar was traced to the Joshua declaration in the bible. The bible recorded that the earth was a void without form and it takes the creativity of God for the present earth to have form. Please my dear God does not have begining nor the end. so there is no record of time with god. that is why he is God he lives forever. The ancient of Days, he's never old. He does not have an end.

Well, I guess some minds are so badly affected that no amount of reason can penetrate. What a shame!

simmy:
@bawomolo
my point exactly!!! the pips who wrote the bible were not writing a scientific report, hence the little irrelevant differences which funny people like u term contradicitons. also note the bible was written by several different people who saw the same event from slightly different perspectives. the bible is consistent in what is relevant and that is message!


come on read your posts yourself and see if u think your criticisms are not silly at best

But this is supposed to be the inspired work of an omiscient being, and we would expect notthing less that factual accuracy and perfection from an omniscient, omnipotent being. The bible says as much and there is this whole doctrine called Biblical Inerrancy, which hold that there are no mistakes in the bible.

Take the case of when Jesus was born;

According to Matthew it was no later than 4BCE, but according to Luke it was 6 CE - a gap of at least 10 years. How would you reconcile these accounts?

ahwuyen:
Evolution vs. Creation

We now wish to deal with evolution and its relationship to the Bible. Evolution is a widely-believed theory which postulates that life on earth has come to its present state through millions of years of progression from lower forms of life.

In contrast, the Bible states that the earth and its life forms were created in six days some 6000 years ago. The Bible further defines one day as "morning and evening" (Genesis 1:5). Those who believe that the Bible is the word of God are compelled to believe in a literal six days of creation. The voice of God Himself spoke from Mt. Sinai in the giving of the fourth commandment: "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore God blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy" (Exodus 20:11). In two specific ways the Old Testament defines a "day" of creation as corresponding closely to our normal 24-hour day.

Not only that, but the Lord Jesus in the New Testament confirms the shortness of the time of creation. "But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6). If it had taken man a long time to come into existence after creation was initiated, then man and woman would not have been there at the time Jesus called "the beginning of creation. " A person who believes in the Bible is forced to believe in a literal six days of creation.

If evolution is correct, the Bible obviously is not the literal word of God. And, as a matter of fact, widespread belief in evolution is one of the major reasons why many people do not believe in the Bible.

Consider the scope of evolution (see Figure 1). Evolution is rooted in the concept that the earth began four to five billion years ago when material in the universe, such as a giant dust cloud, came together to form a swirling, molten ball. Over a period of three to four billion years this molten ball cooled down.

Figure 1

By one billion years ago the earth was covered with a seething solution of water, ammonia, and related chemicals, bubbling with methane gas. This brew is known as the "primeval broth." All the chemicals necessary for life were present in exactly the right amounts at exactly the right temperature. Then lightning (or some other stimulus) struck the mixture, the chemicals came together in exactly the right combinations, and life began as a primitive cell started to function.

From this primitive cell different life forms began to evolve. By 500 million years ago primitive plants had evolved, as well as primitive animals related to clams and snails. One of the most predominant forms of these shelled animals was the trilobite.

Trilobites existed from 500 million to 300 million years ago, and then they died out (Encyclopedia Americana, 1968 Ed.; Vol.21, pp. 186-194; Paleontology).

By 200 million years ago reptiles had replaced these earlier crustaceans as the dominant form of life. The giant reptiles, the dinosaurs, lumbered over the earth, unchallenged as kings, for 140 million years. With the shift in climate, reptiles such as these were unable to compete with the rapidly evolving mammals, and by 60 million years ago, the age of dinosaurs had drawn to a close as the last of the "terrible lizards" wheezed his last breath.

The Cenozoic Era is the age of mammals. This Era began 60 million years ago and has lasted up to the present. By the beginning of this era, primitive mammals had begun to evolve, and by the middle of the Era giant mammals nearly as large as dinosaurs roamed over the earth. Step by step each group of mammals gave way to a more advanced form, until one million years ago homo sapiens, modern man, appeared on the scene. Today he totally dominates the earth, and will continue to do so until he gives way to a higher form of life.

The Bible, in contrast, teaches that the earth began some 6000 years ago, and that all animals and plants were formed in the beginning. Following the flood, which occurred roughly 4500 years ago, the climate of the earth was apparently radically changed, and many forms of life which once existed became extinct.

Having presented these two views concerning the origin of man, we want to consider some very pertinent facts. And we want to see which view - Bible Creation or Evolution - is more consistent with these facts.

Fact Number 1: Near Glen Rose, Texas, in the bed of the Paluxy River, are fossilized dinosaur tracks. That is not surprising, because dinosaur tracks are found in many places throughout the world. What is surprising is that human footprints are fossilized in the same rock stratum, with some of the human tracks fossilized as actually stepping into the dinosaur tracks. (There is some controversy currently concerning the human tracks in the Paluxy. Because the tracks themselves are powerful a refutation of evolution, the controversy is not unexpected. You will need to see them yourself.)

According to evolutionary theory, dinosaurs died out 60 million years before man, with his distinctive footprint, walked on the face of the earth. But here is a fact, preserved in stone for anyone to see, proving that man and dinosaur lived at the same time. Furthermore, the limestone edge which must be ripped away to get to some of the tracks makes it clear that the tracks are of "normal dinosaur age."

This fact - that man and dinosaur lived at the same time - is a bull in the evolutionary china closet. It wrecks everything! If man existed with dinosaurs, then man did not evolve from dinosaurs. And if man did not evolve from dinosaurs, then neither did the other mammals. And if mammals did not evolve from dinosaurs, this throws that "most accurate" portion of the evolutionary chart out the window. And with the "most accurate" portion of evolution gone, the "less accurate" portion of the chart, from "first life" down to dinosaurs, is extremely questionable.

But notice that the Bible model, stating that all things lived together at the beginning, predicts that we should find evidence of both man and dinosaur living at the same time in the same place.

Fact Number 2: "George Howe in the Creation Research Quarterly of December 1968 reports the find of William Meister in Utah of a sandal footprint with crushed trilobites in it!" (The Christ and the lntertestament Period, Wartick and Fields, College Press, Joplin, MO; "The Christian and Evolution," p.686).

According to evolutionary theory, trilobites died out some 300 million years ago. According to the Bible, trilobites and man lived at the same time. That fact that a living trilobite was crushed by a human sandal, then fossilized, is hard to explain unless the Bible is true.

Other Questions: What about the fossil record, uranium dating, mutations, and other items discovered by science which are generally accepted as verifying evolution? All of these are discussed very completely in an excellent book written by a group of eminent scientists, and edited by Henry M. Morris of the Institute for Creation Research, entitled Scientific Creationism (published by Creation-Life Publishers, San Diego, CA 92115).

I need not read any further than this.  This is just bollocks.  This is what mal-education causes.  All the more reason religions need to be resisted.

can u try?

Scopium:
[size=13pt]@ poster
You are online all you had to was to do the research by yourself. Well there you have it, a-z.[/size]

Does the subject of my post suggest that I did not know? I was simply using a literary device to start a conversation.

Ujujoan:
But you make the mistake of confusing the christian beliefs with other relegions or theories. The basis of our religion is FAITH. Not by sight or reason, but absolute belief and trust in God. How else can we explain the death and resurection of Christ, the Blessed trinity, the pregnant Virgin and others.

We believe in God and the power behind his ressurection, and thats it. Your cognitive dissonance or not!!!

Are you saying that your belief system need NOT be founded on fact?  What is there is factual evidence that Jesus NEVER existed?  As an article of FAITH you would still be right in maintaining your belief and faith?

kola oloye:
Go through this evidences if u need more i will gladly give it to u.

ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE
The first proof we have testifying to the reliability of the Bible is the archaeological evidence. Nelson Glueck, a respected Jewish archaeologist claims: "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever contradicted a biblical reference." (ISAIAH 9:6)

The liberals made wild claims against the Bible a hundred years ago but now they are silent. This is not true of other religions. The MORMON claim for inspiration of the Book of Mormon has been categorically condemned by the Smithsonian Institute because of the fallacies shown by archaeology; this is not so with the Bible.

SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE
Recent scientific evidence is adding to the evidence supporting the reliability of biblical chronology from the scriptures. This study demonstrated the reliability of the Biblical record regarding the Egyptian plagues and demise of Jericho.

Drs. Hendrik J. Bruins and Johannes van der Plicht reported in the prestigious British journal, Nature (ISAIAH 33:22), that the destruction of Jericho was dated to 1580 (+/- 13 years) B.C. (using 14C dating). This date is significant, since several archeologists have insisted that Jericho was destroyed by the Egyptians between 1550 and 1300 B.C. The recent study discredits the Egyptian theory, since the date is much too old.

What is even more exciting is that scientists, using 14C dating and tree rings, have found evidence of a volcanic eruption from the Aegean island of Thera, which recently has been dated to 1628 B.C. (PSALM 2;6). This would place the eruption at 45 years prior to the destruction of Jericho, at a time which coincidentally corresponds to the time of the plagues the Lord unleashed upon Egypt. Check out Exodus 10:

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even a darkness which may be felt." So Moses stretched out his hand toward the sky, and there was thick darkness in all the land of Egypt for three days. (Exodus 10:21-22

It would be entirely true - His infinite knowledge would prevent errors and His truthfulness would keep Him from deception.
It would be a coherent unity, therefore not self- contradictory.
It would contain God's will for man, and provide the motivation to live according to that will (GEN.17:19).
God has revealed Himself in the Bible without error. The Bible itself claims this inerrancy (2 Timothy 3:16-17 (4);
Matthew 5:18 (5); etc.).

If all the above were true, all that would prove was that the bible correctly recorded some historic events. That in itself is notthing amazing. There are millions of text from various civilizations across the world that accurately recorded their histories, from the Aztecs, mayan, Cambodian, Chinese, Egyptian. All these can all be confirmed by archeology. So the fact that some historic events are correctly recorded in the bible is notthing special.

Now if it was the word of god, and written by inspired names, you would expect no errors or contradictions, and no errors in the facts of history, wouldn't you? Ok, take the following accounts and try to reconcile them, please;

1) The story of the creation recorded in Genesis 1 and 2. Do you believe that these describe accurately the events leading up to the creation of the universe?

Do you think god created the sun in day four? Given that the gravitational attraction of the sun holds the earth in its orbits, that plants rely on sunlight and that there is no such thing as day/night without the sun, how come there were three days before the sun came into being?

This is the chronology of creation in Gen 1:
Plants
Animals
Man & woman

In Gen 2, this is the order;

Man
plants
animals
woman

How would you reconcile these accounts?

2) The 10 Commandments

Why are the 10 commadments recorded in Exodus 20 different from those recorded in Exodus 34, given that the Exodus 34 commandments are supposed to betrhe replacemenst of the Ex 20 commandments which Moses smashed?

3) The Noah Flood.

The is no evidence for a global flood at this time.

4) Daniel gets the number of years of the reign of some Judaic kings wrong.

5) The birth of Jesus.

Matthew says Jesus was born in the reign of Herod, who died in the year 4 BCE, but Luke says Jesus was born when Quirinius was the governor of Syria, which was not until 6 CE. A 10 year discrepancy. Which is correct? When really was Jesus born?

6) How did Judas Iscariot die?

7) How long was Jesus on earth after his resurrection before he rose into heaven?

How many people rose into heaven before Jesus?

9) What about all the cannibalism and human sacrifices mandated by the bible?

10) What about all the rapes, murders, abduction and pillage commited by Moses on neighbouring tribes.


Are all these the work of a good god?

funny how you never really challenge the facts and evidence in front of you. Did these prophecies come to pass? That is the question?

(Ko-ran 4:82)
Do they not consider the Qur-'a-n (with care)?
Had it been from other than Allah, they would
surely have found therein much discrepancy.

The Book of Mormon Is the Word of God

President Ezra Taft Benson

Source: http://www.geocities.com/graymada/Book-of-Mormon.html

I speak to you today on a most vital subject. As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, "we believe . . . the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." (Eighth Article of Faith.) God has so declared it, so have its writers, so have its witnesses, and so do all those who have read it and received a personal revelation from God as to its truthfulness.

In section 20 of the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord says that he gave Joseph Smith "power from on high . . . to translate the Book of Mormon; which contains . . . the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ . . . ; Which was given by inspiration." (D&C 20:8-10)

Nephi, one of the prophet-writers of the Book of Mormon, testifies that the book contains "the words of Christ" (2 Nephi 33:10), and Moroni, the last writer in the book, testifies that "these things are true." (Moroni 7:35)
This same Moroni, as an angelic being sent from God, showed these ancient records to three witnesses in our day. Their testimony of the records is contained in the front of the Book of Mormon. They state: "We also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true.

And Joseph Smith, the Prophet, the instrument whom God used to translate this record, testified that "the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 4:461.)

The Book of Mormon was written for us today. God is the author of the book. It is a record of a fallen people, compiled by inspired men for our blessing today. Those people never had the book--it was meant for us. Mormon, the ancient prophet after whom the book is named, abridged centuries of records. God, who knows the end from the beginning, told him what to include in his abridgement that we would need for our day. Mormon turned the records over to his son Moroni, the last recorder; and Moroni, writing over 1500 years ago but speaking to us today, states: "Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath showed you unto me, and I know your doing." (Mormon 8:35.)

The purpose of the Book of Mormon is stated on the title page. It is "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD."

Nephi, the first prophet-writer in the Book of Mormon, states:

"For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved. Wherefore, the things which are pleasing unto the world I do not write, but the things which are pleasing unto God and unto those who are not of the world. Wherefore, I shall give commandment unto my seed, that they shall not occupy these plates with things which are not of worth unto the children of men." (1 Nephi 6:4-6)

The Book of Mormon brings men to Christ through two basic means. First, it tells in a plain manner of Christ and his gospel. It testifies of his divinity and of the necessity for a Redeemer and the need of our putting trust in him. It bears witness of the Fall and the Atonement and the first principles of the gospel, including our need of a broken heart and a contrite spirit and a spiritual rebirth. It proclaims we must endure to the end in righteousness and live the moral life of a Saint.

Second, the Book of Mormon exposes the enemies of Christ. It confounds false doctrines and lays down contention. (See 2 Nephi 3:12.) It fortifies the humble followers of Christ against the evil designs, strategies, and doctrines of the devil in our day. The type of apostates in the Book of Mormon are similar to the type we have today. God, with his infinite foreknowledge, so molded the Book of Mormon that we might see the error and know how to combat false educational, political, religious, and philosophical concepts of our time.

Now God expects us to use the Book of Mormon in several ways. We are to read it ourselves--carefully, prayerfully--and ponder as we read, as to whether this book is the work of God or of an unlearned youth. And then when we are finished reading the things in the book, Moroni exhorts us to put them to the test in these words:

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost." (Moroni 10:4.)

I have done as Moroni exhorts, and I can testify to you that his book is from God and so is verily true.

We are to use the Book of Mormon as the basis for our teaching. In section 42 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord states:

And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in . . . the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel."

As we read and teach, we are to liken the Book of Mormon scriptures unto us "that it might be for our profit and learning." (1 Nephi 19:23.)

We are to use the Book of Mormon in handling objections to the Church. God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ revealed themselves to Joseph Smith in a marvelous vision. After that glorious event, Joseph Smith told a minister about it. Joseph was surprised to hear the minister say that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days, that all such things had ceased. (See Joseph Smith 2:21)

This remark symbolizes practically all of the objections that have ever been made against the Church by nonmembers and dissident members alike. Namely, they do not believe that God reveals his will today to the Church through prophets of God. All objections, whether they be on abortion, plural marriage, seventh-day worship, etc., basically hinge on whether Joseph Smith and his successors were and are prophets of God receiving divine revelation. Here then, is a procedure to handle most objections through the use of the Book of Mormon.

1. First, understand the objection.
2. Second, give the correct answer from revelation.
3. Third, show how the correctness of the answer really depends on whether or not we have modern revealtion through modern prophets.
4. Fourth, explain that whether or not we have modern prophets and revelation really depends on whether the Book of Mormon is true.

Therefore, the only problem the objector has to resolve for himself is whether the Book of Mormon is true. For if the Book of Mormon is true, then Jesus is the Christ, Joseph Smith was his prophet. Thc Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, and it is being led today by a prophet receiving revelation.

Our main task is to declare the gospel and do it effectively. We are not obligated to answer every objection. Every man eventually is backed up to the wall of faith, and there he must make his stand. "And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye," said Nephi, "for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things." (2 Nephi 33:11.) Every man must judge for himself, knowing God will hold him accountable.

The Book of Mormon is to be used "for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel," the Lord says, and its words "shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth." (2 Nephi 29:2) We, the members of the Church, and particularly the missionaries, have to be the "hisser," or the tellers and testifiers, of the Book of Mormon unto the ends of the earth.

The Book of Mormon is the great standard we are to use. It shows that Joseph Smith was a prophet. It contains the words of Christ, and its great mission is to bring men to Christ and all other things are secondary. The golden question of the Book of Mormon is "Do you want to learn more of Christ?" The Book of Mormon is the great finder of the golden contact. It does not contain things which are "pleasing unto the world" (1 Nephi 6:5), and so the worldly are not interested in it. It is a great sieve.

Anyone who has diligently sought to know the doctrines and teachings of the Book of Mormon and has used it conscientiously in missionary work knows within his soul that this is the instrument which God has given to the missionaries to convince the Jew and Gentile and Lamanite of the truthfulness of our message.

Now, we have not been using the Book of Mormon as we should. Our homes are not as strong unless we are using it to bring our children to Christ. Our families may be corrupted by worldly trends and teachins unless we expose and combat the falsehoods in socialism, rationalism, etc. Our missionaries are not as effective unless they are "hissing forth" with it. Social, ethical, cultural, or educational converts will not survive under the heat of the day unless their taproots go down to the fulness of the gospel which the Book of Mormon contains. Our Church classes are not as spirit-filled unless we hold it up as a standard. And our nation will continue to degenerate unless we read and heed the words of the God of this land, Jesus Christ, and quit building up and upholding the secret combinations which the Book of Mormon tells us proved the downfall of both previous American civilizations.

Some of the early missionaries, on returning home, were reproved by the Lord in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants because they had treated lightly the Book of Mormon. As a result, their minds had been darkened. The Lord said that this kind of treatment of the Book of Mormon brought the whole Church under condemnation, even all of the children of Zion. And then the Lord said, "And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon." (See D&C 84:54-57.) Are we still under that condemnation?

Reading the Book of Mormon is one of the greatest persuaders to get men on missions. We need more missionaries. But we also need better-prepared missionaries coming out of the wards and branches and homes where they know and love the Book of Mormon. A great challenge and day of preparation is at hand for missionaries to meet and teach with the Book of Mormon. We need missionaries to match our message.

And now grave consequences hang on our response to the Book of Mormon. "Those who receive it," said the Lord, "in faith, and work righteousness, shall receive a crown of eternal life;

"But those who harden their hearts in unbelief, and reject it, it shall turn to their own condemnation--

"For the Lord God has spoken it." (D&C 20:14-16.)

Is the Book of Mormon true? Yes.

Who is it for? Us.

What is its purpose? To bring men to Christ.

How does it do this? By testifying of Christ and revealing his enemies.

How are we to use it? We are to get a testimony of it, we are to teach from it, we are to hold it up as a standard and "hiss if forth."

Have we been doing this? Not as we should, nor as we must.

Do eternal consequences rest upon our response to this book? Yes, either to our blessing or our condemnation.

Every Latter-day Saint should make the study of this book a lifetime pursuit. Otherwise he is placing his sould in jeopardy and neglecting that which could give spiritual and intellectual unity to his whole life. There is a difference between a convert who is built on the rock of Christ through the Book of Mormon and stays hold of that iron rod, and one who is not.

Over a quarter of a century ago I listened in this Tabernacle to these words:

A Few years ago as I began to practice law, members of my family were a little uneasy. They were afraid I would lose my faith. I wanted to practice law, but I had an even greater desire to keep my testimony, and so I decided upon a little procedure which I recommend to you. For thirty minutes each morning before I began the day's work I read from the Book of Mormon . . . and in just a few minutes a day I read the Book of Mormon through, every year, for nine years. I know that it kept me in harmony with the Spirit of the Lord . . . It will hold us as close to the Spirit of the Lord as anything I know." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1949, p. 36.)

That was President Marion G. Romney. I echo his counsel.

What, then, are we to say of the Book of Mormon? I bear witness that it is verily true. I know this as I know that I live. We stand with the Prophet Joseph Smith when he said, "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (History of the Church, 4:461.)

May we know and use the keystone and get nearer to God, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

kola oloye:
Please kindly refer to those places in other books where such proves
concerning those books were written. Waiting in anticipation.

What would be your reaction if I were to show you that other books also claim to be the word of god in the other books?

Would that result in you doubting the bible?

How many heavens are there? The bible makes constant references to multiples heavens. Does this mean that there are more than one heaven? If so, where does god reside?

We know from the New Testament that there would have been at least three heavens, as in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (King James Version);

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


And what is a firmament?

ah agh. Does no one know what this is about?

kola oloye:
@tpaine,
Bible instructions were simple and clear. They were confimed by many Prophets,
Apostles and Disciples. Not for modifications.Inside it you will read also some things like these:
`I AM THE WAY ,THE TRUTH AND LIFE NO ONE,,,,,,`
`YOU SHALL MEDITATE ON THIS BOOK OF LAW ,,,,` so on and so forth, but this other books you
are talking about do not have such proves written in them.

I am very surprised (or maybe not)  you do not see the flaw in your reasoning. A text confirms itself as the word of god and you take that as sound reasoning?  It is a bit like asking a defendant in court why he did not commit a crime, and accepting "because I said so" as a valid response.

Do you know of any religious text that does not claim to be the word of their deity?  If a religious text clearly said it was NOT the word of their god, would people follow and venerate the text? So in order to entice follower, all the various religious text MUST claim to contain the word of god. This is what you will find in the bible, ko-ran, had-ith, mormom, etc. They are all words of god, and they all clearly state that.

Good questions!