₦airaland Forum

Softmirror:
I already told you that it is not about this report. It is about the notion that since it is BBC hence it means it is 100%. Every news outlet have their own agenda. BBC has been responsible for propaganda as far back as the 50s during the overthrow of governments.

Then,you're shifting the goalpost .The conversation started with you dismissing this particular horrific investigation into sex trafficking in Dubai because you doubt the BBC. Till this moment, you've still not addressed a single factual claim within the report.

Oga listen,I didn't not claim the BBC is 100% or perfect, nothing is ,in fact; I clearly stated that they've a public 'Correction and Clarification' page where they officially acknowledge and amend errors. This mechanism which they've is a sign of integrity,not weakness. All reputable news organisations have them.

However, this particular investigation stands on its own overwhelming evidence: Corroborated victims testimonies, undercover evidence, Corroboration from a former insider, and documentary evidence.

Your argument is a perfect example of the 'genetic fallacy', dismissing a claim based on its source rather than its actual content. You can't dismiss this mountain of evidence by mentioning unrelated controversies from the 1950s. It doesn't work that way.

So,,for the final time, If you think this particular report is not factual, engage with its content. Mention a particular piece of evidence,, a claim, a testimony,or document, that you confirm is fabricated.Until you do that,your criticism remains a vague, baseless opinion that disrespectfully ignore the traumatic experiences of the victims who took the courage to come forward .

And I hope you're not one of those Trump supporters who have been brainwashed by him that both the CNN and BBC are false news outlets?. Your kind of argument make me suspect that

Goo0dHardDick:
Tbis f..oulishness needs to stop.

This clout chasing is getting too much.

Indians have been cooking with larger pots since the creation of the world yet they don't make noise about it.

Ever wonder why USA, UK, Germany, China, Canada, Australia and other sane countries don't engage in this trash? Because they are busy thinking of the way forward for their countries and not engaging on trash like this

You and your likes can continue to focus on the mundane: the pot and the jollof rice, while others who can see beyond that continue to focus on Hilda's ambition as a source of inspiration for others in other fields of human endeavour to dream big and believe they can actualise it.

You claim Indians have been doing the same thing without providing evidence for us to determine if theirs is in the same scale as Hilda's.

BTW, Indians don't cook jollof rice. Hilda's record is for the largest pot of jollof rice.

But as I already mentioned, the goal is not in the pot of rice , but the ambition to dream big and make it happen. If most Nigerians think like her, they will do great things.

Softmirror:
Does BBC issue apology and acknowledged factually incorrect elements in their reports after being challenged?!

True or False? Let's start from there.

You've asked me to prove a negative ,that the BBC never accept mistakes..That's not how to debate. You're the one making the positive claim,that their reports are usually not factual and unacknowledged. So, the burden is on you to bring specific instances to support your accusation.

However, to answer your question directly, Yes it's true that the BBC does issues apologies and acknowledges errors in their reports .

They maintain a dedicated ' Corrections and Clarification ' page where they publicly document and apologise for inaccuracy and impartiality .

They have issued corrections for errors in reporting statistics and misrepresenting sources.

The existence of this public transperent mechanism, which you can verify yourself, contradicts your suggestions that they never accept mistakes .All serious news organisations have them and it's a sign of credibility, not the opposite.

Your other point about ' fake report ' is a common deflection tactic used by those who have been exposed. The perpetrator in this sex trafficking case has every right to dismiss the BBC's investigative work as false. His reputation and freedom is on the line. The BBC's report isn't based on his opinion, but meticulously gathered evidence


Dismissing the evidence because you believe the source is not to be trusted, without providing a single piece of counter evidence is not skepticism , it's willful ignorance .

So, if you want to question this report's truthfulness, mention a specific factual inaccuracy within it. If you want to question the BBC's overalll credibility, provide your specific instances of the unacknowledged mistakes you claim exist. Without that, your argument is baseless

Softmirror:
The exact answer I was expecting. Well, before this age of 'FAKE NEWS'. Fabricating lies been a long time mastered trade by BBC since many decades international politics and affairs.

I don't have any evidence to prove this story to be untrue. But the credibility of BBC is not 100% through the ages.

Your accusation lacks evidence and is contradicted by the BBC's longstanding editorial standard .
You mention that BBC has 'mastered fabricating lies' for decades, yet you fail to provide specific examples, dates, or events to support this claim. Without evidence, this remains an unsupported opinion rather than a factual statement.

Softmirror:
So what if it was carried by BBC? What does that mean?!

It means credibility.

The BBC 's reputation is built on factual reporting.

Moreover , they're one of the reputable news organisation in the world.

Furthermore , they have a global reputation and strict editorial guidelines to uphold.

And finally , they wouldn't rrisk their entire credibility and face massive legal repercussions by publishing a fabricated investigation ,especially one of this gravity . This wasn't a blog post,it was a formal, vetted, investigative ,piece, with names and faces of real people.

meobizy:
Without videos and pictures past vanilla sex acts.

Your demand for video evidence of these degrading sexual acts is problematic from an ethical and legal standpoint.

Distributing videos of sexual assault and degradation would be a further exploitation of the victims. It would permanently circulate their trauma online for public consumption, violating their dignity and privacy. A credible news organization like the BBC has a duty to protect victims, not exploit them for evidence.

You should also expect that perpetrators to enforce strict rules (no use of cameras) to avoid leaving evidence that could lead to prosecution, the same way strip clubs operate. You're never allowed to use your phone to record anything that goes on within such places .

In any case, the report contained enough evidence. Evidence is not always in pictures and videos.

meobizy:
I’ve heard of this porta potty nonsense for almost fifteen years. Zero evidence. I don’t believe it. Men are quick to brag about conquests. Local boys on Nairaland bypass rules to post pictures of prostitutes they pay for. How come no one in two decades has posted a single video?

The investigation was carried out by the BBC. Read it first before dismissing it as untrue.

within two weeks that debt had doubled.

"Money for air tickets, for your visa, for where you're sleeping, food," says Mia.

"That means you have to work hard, hard, hard, pleading for men to come and sleep [with] you."

Monic owed Mr Mwesigwa more than $27,000 (£19,918) after several weeks, according to what a relative of hers we are calling Michael says she told him. He adds that he received tearful voice notes from her.

Family handout Monic smiles at the camera - she is wearing a yellow and white lace dress with a yellow shirt over the topFamily handout
Monic grew up with 10 siblings in rural Uganda
Mia told us that clients were mostly white Europeans, and included men with extreme fetishes.

"There's this one client, he poops on girls. He poops and he tells them to eat the shit," she explained quietly.

Another woman we are calling Lexi, who says she was tricked by a different network, echoed Mia's story, saying "porta potty" requests were frequent.

"There was a client who said: 'We pay you 15,000 Arab Emirates Dirham ($4,084, £3,013) to gang-rape you, pee in your face, beat you, and add in 5,000 ($1,361, £1,004)'" for being recorded eating faeces.

Her experiences have led her to believe there is a racial element to this extreme fetish.

"Every time I said that I wouldn't want to do that, it seemed to get them more interested. They want somebody who is going to cry and scream and run. And that somebody [in their eyes] should be a black person."

Lexi says she tried to get help from the only people she thought could intervene - the police. But she says they told her: "You Africans cause problems for each other. We don't want to get involved. And they would hang up."

We put this allegation to the Dubai police and they did not reply.

Lexi eventually escaped back to Uganda and now helps to rescue and support women in similar situations.


Finding Charles Mwesigwa wasn't easy. We could only find one picture of him online - and it was taken from behind. He also uses multiple names across social media.

But through a combination of open-source intelligence, undercover research, and information from a former member of his network, we traced him to a middle class neighbourhood in Dubai - Jumeirah Village Circle.

To corroborate what sources had told us about his business - supplying women for degrading sex acts - we sent in an undercover reporter posing as an event organiser sourcing women for high-end parties.

Mr Mwesigwa appeared calm and confident when speaking about his business.

Undercover image of Charles Mwesigwa. He is looking down and wearing a black and white vertical-striped top. In the bottom of the frame is part of what appears to be his UK driving licence.
Mr Mwesigwa showed us his UK driving licence and said he was a former London bus driver
"We've got like 25 girls," he said. "Many are open-minded… they can do pretty much everything."

He explained the cost - from $1,000 (£738) per girl per night, but more for "crazy stuff". He invited our reporter for a "sample night".

When asked about "Dubai porta potty" he replied: "I've told you, they are open-minded. When I say open-minded… I will send you the craziest I have."

In the course of the conversation, Mr Mwesigwa said he used to be a London bus driver. We have seen evidence he put that occupation down on an official document in east London in 2006.

He went on to tell our reporter that he loved this business.

"I could win the lottery, a million pounds, but I would still do it… it's become part of me."

Troy, a man who says he used to act as operations manager for Mr Mwesigwa's network, gave us more information about how he says it is run.

Troy is wearing a black bobble hat, cream collared-top, has a beard and an earring and a distinctive anchor tattoo on his forehead
Troy says he used to work as a driver and then an operations manager for Charles Mwesigwa
He says Mr Mwesigwa pays off security at various nightclubs so they will let his women in to find clients.

"I've heard about types of sex that I've never seen in my life. It doesn't matter what you go through as long as his rich men are happy… [the women] have no escape route…They see musicians, they see footballers, they see presidents."

Mr Mwesigwa has been able to get away with running this operation, Troy claims, because Troy and others are not just used as drivers. He says their names are also used by Mr Mwesigwa to hire cars and apartments, so that his own name never appears on the paperwork.

On 27 April 2022, Monic posted a selfie from Al Barsha - a residential neighbourhood popular with expats in Dubai. Four days later, she was dead. She had been in the emirate for just four months.

According to Mia, Monic and Mr Mwesigwa had been regularly arguing in the period before she left. Mia says Monic had been refusing to comply with Mr Mwesigwa's demands and had found a way out of his network.

"She had got some kind of job. She was very excited. She thought she was gonna get free, she was going to get her life back because now that was a real job, no sleeping with men," Mia says.

Monic moved out to a different apartment about 10 minutes' walk away. It was from this apartment's balcony that she fell on 1 May 2022.


The final selfie Monic posted before she died
Monic's relative Michael, who was in the UAE at the time she died, says he tried to get answers.

Police told him they stopped their investigation, having found drugs and alcohol in the apartment Monic had fallen from, and only her fingerprints on the balcony, he says.

He obtained a death certificate for Monic from a hospital, but it did not say how she had died. And her family were unable to obtain a toxicology report for her.

But a Ghanaian man living in the apartment building was more helpful, he says, taking him to another block to meet the man he said was Monic's boss.

Michael describes the scene when he got there and saw where the women were housed.

He says through the cloud of shisha smoke in the living room, he made out what looked like cocaine on the table and women having sex on chairs with clients.

He claims he found the man we had previously identified as Charles Mwesigwa in bed with two women, and that when he tried to drag him to the police Mr Mwesigwa replied: "I have spent 25 years in Dubai. Dubai is mine… There is no way you are going to report me… Embassy is me, I'm the embassy.

"[Monic's] not the first to die. And she won't be the last," he added, according to Michael.

Mia and Keira both independently say they witnessed this conversation and both confirm its wording. When we asked Mr Mwesigwa what he meant by this, he denied having said it.

Monic's death shares haunting similarities with that of Kayla Birungi, another Ugandan woman who lived in the same neighbourhood as her, and died in 2021 after falling from a Dubai high-rise apartment which we have evidence to suggest was managed by Charles Mwesigwa.

The phone number for her landlord, shared with us by Kayla's family, turned out to be one of Mr Mwesigwa's numbers. Troy also confirms that Mr Mwesigwa managed the apartment, as do four other women we spoke to for this investigation.


Kayla Birungi, another Ugandan, also died after falling from a Dubai high-rise building
Kayla's relatives say that they - like Monic's family - heard Kayla's death had been linked to alcohol and drugs. But a toxicology report seen by the BBC shows none were present in her system at the time of her death.

While Kayla's family was able to repatriate her body and hold a burial, Monic's remains were never returned.

Our investigation found she was likely buried in a section of Dubai's Al Qusais Cemetery known as "The Unknown". It features rows and rows of unmarked graves, typically thought to belong to migrants whose family couldn't repatriate their bodies.

Monic and Kayla were part of a wider, unofficial pipeline connecting Uganda to the Gulf.

As Uganda wrestles with rising youth unemployment, moving to work abroad - mainly in the Gulf states - has become a huge industry that contributes $1.2bn (£885m) of tax revenue to the country each year.

But these opportunities can carry a risk.

Mariam Mwiza, a Ugandan activist against exploitation, says she has helped rescue more than 700 people from around the Gulf.

"We get cases of people who have been promised to work, let's say, in a supermarket. Then [that person] ends up sold as a prostitute," she told us.

Four members of Monic's family including her mother hold up framed photos of Monic
Monic's family in rural Uganda say Monic always had the ambition to seek a better life
For Monic's family, grief is now tangled with fear. Fear for other families who could suffer the same loss they have, if nothing is done.

"We are all looking at Monica's death," her relative Michael told us. "But who is there for the girls still alive? They're still there. Still suffering."

The BBC asked Charles "Abbey" Mwesigwa to respond to all the allegations made in our investigation. He denied running an illegal prostitution ring.

He said: "These are all false allegations.

"I told you I am just a party person who invites big spenders on my tables, hence making many girls flock [to] my table. That makes me know many girls and that's it."

He also said: "[Monic] died with her passport meaning no-one was demanding her money for taking her. Prior to her death, I hadn't seen her for over four to five weeks.

"I knew [Monic and Kayla] and [they] were renting with different landlords. If no-one in both flats was arrested or any of the landlords, then there was a reason. Both incidents were investigated by the Dubai police and maybe they can help you."

The BBC contacted Al Barsha Police Station to request to see the case files for Monic Karungi and Kayla Birungi. It did not respond to that request or to allegations Monica and Kayla's deaths had not been properly investigated.

The BBC was unable to see any toxicology reports in relation to Monic Karungi, or speak to the landlord of the apartment in which she was living when she died.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OboT09uRw6M?si=ySOEhoPRrC2Nmfiu

A groundbreaking investigative report from the BBC has finally uncovered the truth behind long-standing rumors about Nigerian women and women from other African countries being trafficked into a world of exploitative and degrading sexual trade in Dubai. The findings are both conclusive and horrifying.

I'm sharing the report below because this is a story that demands our attention. Please read the beginning excerpt, and use the link to access the full investigation.

A man running a sex ring operating out of Dubai's most glamorous neighbourhoods, and exploiting vulnerable women, has been identified by a BBC investigation.

Charles Mwesigwa, who says he is a former London bus driver, told our undercover reporter he could provide women for a sex party at a starting price of $1,000 (£740), adding that many can do "pretty much everything" clients want them to.

Rumours of wild sex parties in the UAE emirate have circulated for years. The hashtag #Dubaiportapotty, which has been viewed more than 450 million times on TikTok, links to parodies and speculative exposés of women accused of being money-hungry influencers secretly funding their lifestyles by fulfilling the most excessive of sexual requests.

Our BBC World Service investigation was told the reality is even darker.

Young Ugandan women told us they had not expected to have to undertake sex work for Mr Mwesigwa. In some cases, they believed they were travelling to the UAE to work in places like supermarkets or hotels.

At least one of Mr Mwesigwa's clients regularly asks to defecate on the women, according to "Mia", whose name we have changed to protect her identity, and who says she was trapped by Mr Mwesigwa's network.

Mr Mwesigwa denies the allegations. He says he helps women find accommodation through landlords, and that women follow him to parties because of his wealthy Dubai contacts.

We have also discovered that two women linked to Mr Mwesigwa have died, having fallen from high-rise apartments. Although their deaths were ruled as suicides, their friends and family feel the police should have investigated further.

Mr Mwesigwa said the incidents were investigated by the Dubai police and asked us to contact them for information. They did not reply to our request.

Source
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2r9y3kxy9o


Below is the final selfie posted by one of the victims before she died

yinkus6750:
The collapsed pot and the point of weighing was a different aspect of her ambition.
That was just to confirm the volume of rice cooked
She achieved her aim, as cooking was fully completed, and tasting partially started.
Lessons learnt, sure she will give it another trial

Thank you for this comment.

I wonder why some persons are ignoring her entire achievement to focus on what's not relevant. Her goal was to set a record for the largest pot of jollof rice ever cooked, not to construct the largest cooking pot in the world or the most tasty pot of jollof rice .

VBCampaign:
While at the same time we must recognise the concept of a just war...

It's ironic to read you champion the "concept of a just war " while displaying such a clear misunderstanding of what it legally entails. Your personal justification can never be a substitute for international law.

When I have the time, I will come up with a detailed response to the numerous inaccuracies and half truths in your main article.

I hope you read it and offer a meaningful reply, because from what I have observed, you're often unwilling to respond to direct criticism of your work, preferring to pick and choose what you reply to. In any case ,the choice to respond is yours, but at the very least, others who will read it , will have access to a more balanced viewpoint on the situation in the Middle East .

Jaymats:
Dey play u hear. You go dey alright las las na here we go dey.

I'm not interested in your emotional talk . Just provide evidence for your claim that what you predicted since last year as happened . Provide the stats to back it up.That's all.

I said,NLC is demanding for an upward review of the minimum wage because what was approved last year wasn't enough . If you disagree with this, convince me otherwise.

Jaymats:
Can't stop laughing...

So what I said then later happened. I said increasing the wages at this moment will skyrocket inflation and market people will step in and hike prices of commodity without thinking twice. I said why not put the pressure on the govt to reverse some of its economy policies with non negotiable stand at last it will yield and both party will move on well but hatred and election losers hijacked NLC and turned it to political weapon to the detriment of the populace now here we go.

Una go hear word by force...

Don't deceive yourself. What you said hasn't happened. The reverse is what has happened.

The reason workers are calling for an upward review is because the last one wasn't enough. They only accepted it since the president promised to review it after 3 years.

Prices of basic foodstuffs and other essential commodities have remained stable, in fact, some have experienced reduction in prices, like garri, rice beans and even eggs.

You were amongst those who predicted a load of bread will increase to 5k once minimum wage is increased . Is it 5k now?

MrPresident1:
She didn't deny anything. The denial is in your head. Setting up a Palestinian nation after Jordan is simply incongruous. An independent Palestinian state made up of Arabs after you have Jordan? Peopled by who? That's ridiculous. That is the crux of this thread, that there can be no independent nation made up of Arabs who now call themselves Palestinians when there is Jordan.

The claim that 'Jordan is Palestine' is a well-known myth that has been debunked long ago.

Jordan and Palestine were separate administrative entities under the British Mandate.
Moreover, Jordan itself renounced all claims to the West Bank in 1988 and recognizes the PLO as the sole representative of the Palestinian people. They are a strong supporter of the two-state solution.

Furthermore, granting some Palestinians Jordanian citizenship was a humanitarian act, not an absorption of their national identity. Millions of Palestinians in the diaspora were never granted citizenship and remain stateless. Palestinians from Gaza living in Jordan hold only temporary travel documents, lack citizenship and are denied basic rights like access to education, employment and public health.

Finally, Palestinian national identity is tied to their homeland in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, not Jordan. Using this myth to deny their right to self-determination in their ancestral land is a transparent political tactic, not a serious argument.

This response is for anyone following this discussion who may have been misled by the claim that 'Jordan is Palestine.' That assertion is a politically motivated myth, not a historical fact, and I have just provided the evidence to debunk it.

If you wish to verify this information yourself, I encourage you to research these authoritative sources:

1. Amnesty International's reports on the status of Palestinian refugees in Jordan, which detail the discrimination and statelessness faced by many, particularly those from Gaza .
2. Jordan's Nationality Law of 1954, which legally formalized the distinction between Jordanian citizens and Palestinian residents .
3. Historical accounts of Jordan's disengagement from the West Bank in 1988, when the Jordanian government officially renounced all administrative and legal claims to the territory, recognizing the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people .

You can also use fact-checking platforms to ask the question directly: 'Is Jordan the country for Palestinian Arabs?'

Do not allow anyone to deceive you with oversimplified lies and ahistorical conspiracy theories. The truth is documented and accessible.

Thank you.

MrPresident1:
Can Yoruba arrogate Nigerian nationality solely to themselves? No. You lie there by claiming that Palestinian nationality belongs solely to Arabs. The Palestinian identity belongs to all who are living in that geographical location.

And you continue to misrepresent me. I never said it belongs "solely to the Arabs" Where did I say so. I said nobody can claim it. Go back and reread.

Arabized Arabs? Like Yorubanised Yoruba or Igbonised Igbo or Hausanised Hausa? Lol. You claimed that Palestinian was a sole ethnic group. This is what you said below:

I have seen the video before. However, Golda Meir' 's claims in it do not prove that the Palestinians didn't exist. Instead, they prove that she wanted a gullible public to believe they didn't exist. It was a strategic move to legitimize her own people's claim to the land of Palestine following the creation of the Jewish state in 1948.

Nothing in what I stated above confirms your accusation. My point was not to confirm Palestinians as a single ethnic group, but to demonstrate that Golda Meir's statement contradicts authentic history.

The question to you is which of the Palestinian group, the Jewish or the Arabs, was she trying to prove that they didn't exist, after claiming that she is Palestinian? Which of them was she trying to delegitimise? She said she is Palestinian, what is your problem with that? Is Palestinian identity only for the Arabs?

You've misunderstood my main argument.

Golda Meir stated that she had a Palestinian passport. This was a factual statement about a legal document issued to all inhabitants under the British Mandate. She used this to claim a personal connection to the land.

However, in the very same interview, she then declared that 'there was no such thing as Palestinians' and that the land was essentially empty 'desolate'.

This is serious contradiction. She wasn't trying to delegitimize Jewish claims, she was leveraging her own documented history to delegitimize the centuries-long presence and the very existence of the indigenous Arab population.

My problem is not with her holding a passport or identifying as palestinian before 1948 .My problem is with her using that passport as proof of her own belonging while simultaneously arguing that the other people living there, the Arab majority, were a fiction and that their land was barren. This was a strategic lie to deny their historical claim to the territory.

Alaye, leave my thread. Go and write yours and peddle your untruths there. Where are the links to the references you gave, put the links here. Put the links let us all read them. OK. We want to read your sources, we don't want to behave like the typical Africans anymore, put your links here!

I already did that. I listed some books and other materials but you ignored them. So, not anymore.

You said she tried to suppress the truth. You said she tried to delegitimise 'Palestinians', which Palestinian was she trying to delegitimise, was she trying to delegitimise herself? Does changing the name of nationality from Palestinian to Jewish erase the fact that she and other jewish were Palestinians?

It seems you are conflating two separate ideas, either unintentionally or deliberately.

My argument was never that Golda Meir was trying to delegitimize the modern people known as Palestinians. My point is that her statement was specifically designed to delegitimize their historical claim to the land.


Changing a nationality from 'Palestinian' to 'Israeli' after 1948 doesn't erase the historical fact that Jews lived there as Palestinians under the Mandate. But by 1969, Meir was willfully using that past fact to deny the equally long and deep roots of the Arab population. That is the suppression of truth I referred to.

This is my thread. Leave my thread!

Post the links to your untruths. We want to read where you got your untruths from, post links let us read!

How did the Arabs become more Palestinian than the Jewish? They were all Palestinians. Then one chose to singularly adopt the name, and posture as modern day 'Palestinians'. The land between the Mediterranean and the Iraq border is Palestine, and anyone found in that location is a Palestinian.

There is no such thing as modern Palestinians! The name cannot be adopted unilaterally by anyone!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixbdlUhELoU&pp=ygUkZ29sZGEgbWVpciBpbnRlcnZpZXcgaSdtIHBhbGVzdGluaWFu

The bolded statement is very absurd ,and exposes your misunderstanding of the concepts of nationhood and statehood.

It's completely untrue that everyone within that vast territory identifies as Palestinian or must be a Palestinian .Nationality is a political and cultural identity, not merely a geographic location.

In the past,Arabs, Jews, and others, carried Palestinian passports and were legally termed 'Palestinians.' However, after the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Jewish Israelis dropped that identity to adopt a new national one based on their newfound statehood. They did not cease to live in the region, their national identity changed.

The logic in your argument is as flawed as claiming that every person in West Africa is Nigerian.

An analogy is needed at this point to help you understand better. If the Igbo or Yoruba people were granted their own independent country in the future, they would no longer identify as Nigerians, despite still living within the geographic area the colonial masters once named 'Nigeria.' They would be citizens of their new nation: Biafrans or ........

Palestinian is not a blanket term for a geographic area; it is currently the national identity of the Arab people who originated from the land of Mandatory Palestine and who, unlike their Jewish counterparts, did not achieve statehood and thus retained the name to describe their national aspirations.

Honestly, this would be last reply to you. Sorry to say, your arguments are misleading and deceptive.

Thank you.

MrPresident1:
The crux is this thread is about trying to understand why the term Palestinian is now ascribed to only the Arabs of Gaza who are being killed by the Israelis. Golda Meir told us that this is incongruous. You came here telling us that she is suppressing the truth. What truth was she suppressing, that Palestine is not a cover term for both Jewish and Arab? You came here trying to prove a a mono ethnic Palestine, you are wrong. They are all Palestinians from the Mediterranean to the Iraqi border. There is no such thing as a Palestinian nationality that belongs exclusively to only the Arabs!




I am not arguing any desolate with you, it is subject to varied interpretation, but Palestine wasn't exactly eldorado when the Arabs were living there. You said she suppressed the truth, what truth did she suppress? Is the suppression of truth not tantamount to lying? Where is the lie that the whole place was Palestine? Where is the lie when she said she was Palestinian?

The state of Palestine that is going to be recognised this September is an incongruity, this is the whole essence of this thread, there can be no state of Palestine inhabited only by Arabs, that cannot not true!

You can leave my thread when you are tired of not saying the truth.



Who are the Palestinians you are referring to here? Which Palestinian, Jewish Palestinians or Arab Palestinians? You see that what you wrote is not true? Strategic move to legitimise her people, did she claim to not be Palestinian? Who are Palestinians and where is the land of Palestine?

You tried to spin Palestinians as only one population of people, you are wrong.

I see your problem now: Inability to comprehend what you read.

Listen, Palestinians or Palestine represents national identity. It's not a "thing " you can grab and put in your pocket. It doesn't belong to anybody.

Moreover, Palestinians Arabs aren't"pure " Arabs,but Arabized Arabs. They became so after the Muslim conquest of their land. Palestinians, like other countries of the world aren't made up of just one ethnic group. Do I even need to tell you this? Na Wah o. Na me look for trouble. The answers to the questions you keep repeating like a bot are correctly answered in the reference materials I shared,but you won't read them because you're afraid to know the truth. Africans don't like to read, and you have proven that on this thread of yours.

After all your wayward comments, you failed to provide what I asked for: where did I say Meir lied about her Palestinian root. Yes, where is it? SMH

I done with you. I'm no longer interested in responding to your confusing, misleading and unsupported claims about Palestine and Palestinians. I have provided you with valid reference source for the things I have said here ,but for you, it's what you think, imagine and believe you have been responding with. Sorry, I have better things to do with my time
Thanks

MrPresident1:
This is contrary to all you ever said on this thread. Who made the Arabs of Gaza and the West bank the sole and unique claimant to the Palestinian identity is the question this thread is asking.

Nothing is contrary here. Nobody has made them the sole and unique claimant. If you are from that region and you want to identify as a Palestinian, you are free to do so. And I said, the Palestinians aren't pure Arabs, but Arabized Arabs. Google to know what to means.

Golda Meir said everyone in that region is a Palestinian, you said she lied. Who is the liar now? Anyone who claims a name or identifier that belongs to someone is an identity thief and a creator of confusion.

You are the liar because I never said Meir lied about her Palestinians identity. The lie concerns the land been " desolate".

If you don't show me in your next reply where I said Meir lied about her Palestinian identity, forget it and don't bother me again.

Thank you

MrPresident1:
You came to this thread trying to force the view that Palestinians are some distinct ethnicity, which they are not. You said Golda Meir was lying when she pointed out that she was Palestinian.

I didn't try to force the view that the Palestinians "are some distinct ethnicity . You're the person who is guilty of what you're trying to accuse me of by your insistent demand I mention which ethnic group are the Palestinians I said they're not an ethnic group but a national group, national identity. That has been my reply to you.

Show me where I said Golda Meir lied when she said she had a Palestinian passport and was a Palestinian? . I mentioned Meir having a Palestinian passport as evidence the Jews were once regarded as Palestinians within that region . That was what I said. The lie was her claim the land was " desolate".

The term Palestinian does nor belong to only the Arabs of Gaza or west bank so they cannot claim to be sole Palestinians, that is creating confusion. They are ARABS. The Arabs of West bank and the Arabs of Gaza.

. No. The correct descriptive word is , Palestinians Arabs or arabized Arabs, and they are not a single ethnic group. Prior to 1948, Jewish people living within the region identified as Palestinians Jews , but after then, only a few

All of them in that region including the Israelis are Palestinians.

You don't know history. Before 1948, yes Palestinians Jews, but after then, no. Only a few identified with Palestinians, but no longer call themselves Palestinians Jews.

Who are the Palestinians you are referring to here? Jewish or Arab?

, The Palestinians are primarily descended from the indigenous population of the Levant, with a genetic and cultural continuity that dates back thousands of years . Genetic studies confirms that modern Palestinians share significant ancestry with bronze age Canaanites and other ancient levantine people. This confirms a long standing presence in the region, not a foreign one.

sources ;
1. Genetic studies on Palestinian origin. Haber
2. Historical documents from the British mandate era .

You tried to spin that Palestinians are one unique, monolithic tribe. No they are not.

You didn't understand what you read. Your interpretation of my statement is incorrect.I never tried to spin anything.

The levantine population which the Palestinians descended from wasn't a single ethnic group..

I never said they were. So which "spin" are you talking about? The one you imagined ?

Misrepresenting me to win an argument is poor tactics. Please stop it and engage honestly if you want me to continue with you.

MrPresident1:
Your Palestinians are Arabs. There is no indigenous ethnicity or race called Palestinians. They are better called Gazans not Palestinians. But we keep hearing Palestinians in the news. The better term to describe them is Gazans

When the nakhba occurred in 1948, the Arabs fled to Jordan. Before Jordan was created in 1946, was Jordan not part of Palestine?

Jordanians are Arabs. Large Percentage of Jordanians have Palestinian heritage.

The stock of Arab Palestinians is in Jordan.

You cannot understand

They aren't " my Palestinians".

And who said Palestinians are an ethnic group or race? Me or you?

And again, they cannot be called just Gazans because they're are also found in the West Bank. Yes!

Until you understand the concept of nationhood,it will difficult for you to make sense of my contributions on this thread.

MrPresident1:
I see you now agree that the parent stock of these 'Palestinians' is Arab. Why is their silence on their Arabia origins, and what we hear always is 'Palestinians' discounting the fact that they are Arabs. Why so much noise about 'Palestinians' when the term is not absolute or unique to any ethnic group, race or nationality?

This is what you said

The reason for this adoption was to carve out a distinct national identity for themselves so they can rally under it as a unified front against threat to their lives and continued presence in the land after the creation of the Jewish state.

But you are confused. Who or what gives them the rights to appropriate Palestinians to themselves when all the people in that place are Palestinians? I ask you again, are the Jordanians not Palestinians?

Modified. Provide the source of your claim their stock is Jordan. Jordanian Arabs are Jordanians, not Palestinians,just like Yorubas in Benin republic are beninois, not Nigerians

Your question is for you to answer. If there was a homogeneous Yoruba nation, the Yoruba will all be in one country and will bear one name. They will not bear West Africans because many people are also West Africans

There are Arab countries, why are Arabs being called Palestinians, a name that is not unique to them or to anybody in that region? When did the name Palestinian become a unique identifier for only Arabs?

Arabs in Palestine have chosen that name to represent their national identity in that region which is also their homeland.

Talking about rights, there are no international laws barring them from choosing Palestinians or Palestine.

MrPresident1:
I see you now agree that the parent stock of these 'Palestinians' is Arab. Why is their silence on their Arabia origins, and what we hear always is 'Palestinians' discounting the fact that they are Arabs. Why so much noise about 'Palestinians' when the term is not absolute or unique to any ethnic group, race or nationality?

This is what you said

The reason for this adoption was to carve out a distinct national identity for themselves so they can rally under it as a unified front against threat to their lives and continued presence in the land after the creation of the Jewish state.

But you are confused. Who or what gives them the rights to appropriate Palestinians to themselves when all the people in that place are Palestinians? I ask you again, are the Jordanians not Palestinians?

Modified. Provide the source of your claim their stock is Jordan. Jordanian Arabs are Jordanians, not Palestinians,just like Yorubas in Benin republic are beninois, not Nigerians

Your question is for you to answer. If there was a homogeneous Yoruba nation, the Yoruba will all be in one country and will bear one name. They will not bear West Africans because many people are also West Africans

There are Arab countries, why are Arabs being called Palestinians, a name that is not unique to them or to anybody in that region? When did the name Palestinian become a unique identifier for only Arabs?

Oh boy na wah. What's all this "parent stock" mention for. Are you a poultry farmer.?

Listen, Palestinians are not an ethnic group,but national identity which included both the Arabs and Jews in the past.



The Arabs are alone now after the Jewish state was created. Your Golda Meir already confirmed she had a Palestinian passport. So what are you still arguing?

And FYI, the Palestinians aren't pure Arabs. They are actually called arabized Arabs due to the fact their ancestors adopted Arab language and culture.

MrPresident1:
Provide your sources, put them here let us all read it. You are stubbornly refusing to provide your sources, no one is interested in your opinions, provide sources of what you are saying. Where are the links to the 'documented history' you are peddling?

When did Palestinian become a unique identity for only Arabs living in Gaza and the West bank, and who made it so? When did West Africans become the unique identifier for only Yorubas?

I have provided 2 already which you continue to ignore,and I am providing another 2 : Palestinian identity. The construction of a modern national Palestine consciousness. Rashid Khalidi.

2 Haaretz"s historical investigation.

These are valid sources because they have been peer reviewed : published in reputable scientific journals.

You, on your part,have been making claims upon claims,but not for once have you provided any valid source to support them.Your Google and paste and the self serving video of Golda Meir can't be relied on.

MrPresident1:
Type: are Jordanians Palestinians on Google and read up what it says.

Excerpts:

Overview
No, Jordanians are not Palestinians, but most Jordanian citizens are of Palestinian origin due to historical events like the 1948 Nakba, leading to the annexation of the West Bank and the granting of citizenship to Palestinian refugees by Jordan. While a large segment of the Jordanian population has Palestinian heritage, and the countries share cultural similarities, Jordan and Palestine are distinct national identities, with Jordan having granted full citizenship to many Palestinians, creating a distinct Jordanian population with a majority of Palestinian heritage.

Read!

Honestly, you're confusing yourself. You claimed that the " parent stock" of the Palestinians are Jordanians,and I asked for your source.

Now, read again what you just Googled and tell me how it confirms your "parent stock"claim

MrPresident1:
Name the people.

Did they sprout from the ground of the Levant or they rained down like rain from the skies of the Levant? Durng the time the Ottomans ruled the area, which tribe was called Palestinians? The Kurds, Arabs, Persians, Turks, Jewish? Which specific tribe or race or nationality was called Palestinians?

You are not saying the truth. This is what you said, you said

, The Palestinians are primarily descended from the indigenous population of the Levant, with a genetic and cultural continuity that dates back thousands of years . Genetic studies confirms that modern Palestinians share significant ancestry with bronze age Canaanites and other ancient levantine people. This confirms a long standing presence in the region, not a foreign one.

I challenge you to name the indigenous populations that the modern 'Palestinians' descended from

Palestinian is a modern naming and it is a cover term for all the people living in that geographical area. A mishmash of tribes, not a single ethnicity or race or tribe or nation

The Jordanians are Arabs, they are also Palestinians. Jewish are Palestinians

Ascribing Palestinian to a single nation or ethnicity or race or nationality is a lie and that is what you are pushing

Anyone can easily find out the truth with just a little help from chatgpt

It's not what I said, but what was sourced from documented history which, unfortunately, you have stubbornly refused to consult.

Please , next time try to corroborate from elsewhere what you get from chatgbt so you're not mislead. Not everything it gives you is authentic info. It sometimes produces garbage if you don't know the right set of questions to ask concerning a topic .

And again, Palestinian is not the name of an ethnic group just like Nigeria is not the name of an ethnic group. Palestinian is national identity.So stop conflating it with the wrong thing if you want me to continue this conversation.

MrPresident1:
Writing a long epistle does not mean that you are correct. You are wrong.

There was never any people distinctly called Palestinians, they were all Arabs and Jews and other tribes living in that geographical location and they were all Palestinians as of that time. Golda Meir carried a Palestinian passport, consistent with the fact that she was Palestinian. A modern day distinct nationality and tribe of people called Palestinians is a lie.

Before Nigeria, there was Igbo, Yoruba, Hausa, Tiv, and they all became Nigerians. But there was never any tribe or race or nation called Palestinians that are going to be the nationals and citizens of a soon to be declared state of Palestine. Before this people who are quartered in Gaza and the west bank became the modern day Palestinians they were Jewish and Arabs in that land, Jewish formed Israeli and Arabs became Jordanians. Golda Meir correctly defined the geographical area of Palestine, and the people of Palestine was a mix of tribes.

These modern day Palestinians, they are Arabs and their stock is in Jordan. The stock that is in Jordan, are they not Palestinians? Why were they blockaded from joining Jordan?

Are Jordanians not Palestinians?

Golda Meir carried a Palestinian passport because, during the British Mandate, the name was used legally and geographically for all inhabitants of the land of Palestine, which included the Arabs and the Jews.

But after 1948,it became the adopted national name for the Arab people living there. This is evolution, not invention, and so, not a lie .

The reason for this adoption was to carve out a distinct national identity for themselves so they can rally under it as a unified front against threat to their lives and continued presence in the land after the creation of the Jewish state.

You don' t know all of this because of people like Golda Meir, whose aim in the video you posted was to suppress truth . And that was why she lied by claiming the land was 'desolate ', a claim that directly contradicts historical fact.

Modified. Provide the source of your claim their stock is Jordan. Jordanian Arabs are Jordanians, not Palestinians,just like Yorubas in Benin republic are beninois, not Nigerians

MrPresident1:
Being these sources, we want to see them

You have a phone. Use it. I have done my part.So, it's left for you to decide if you want to know the truth.

MrPresident1:
You didn't see the video.

Before the British got the mandate for Palestine, was there any district tribe, race or nation of people called Palestinians? The answer is No. It was a geographical location, there was no single unified group called Palestinians, they were just a collection of various people under umbrella of the location called Palestine.

Where did I argue against this? I said the modern day Palestinians are a descendant of the Levant. I never said there was an ancient tribe in that region called the Palestinians .

Anyone can easily know who is not saying the truth. Just go to google and make your research. Ask your AI if there was ever a distinct unique tribe or nation callled Palestinians and you will find out for yourselves.

Go to chatgpt and ask it there was ever any race or tribe called Palestinians. When the Ottomans ruled the area, was there a distinct Palestinian tribe?

You're asking these questions because you're confusing the name for the people the name represents . Name can change,but the people remain the same.

So, the question you should ask Chatbot if you really want to know the truth is, who are the modern day Palestinians?

Ask that and come back here with your answers

MrPresident1:
Did you listen to Golda Meir's interview that I posted?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixbdlUhELoU&pp=ygUkZ29sZGEgbWVpciBpbnRlcnZpZXcgaSdtIHBhbGVzdGluaWFu
I doubt you did. What is the parent stock of these 'Palestinians', who were they before they became 'Palestinians'? Have they always been known as 'Palestinians'?
When did Westbank and Gaza become Palestine, inhabited by 'Palestinians'?

When did their national identity as 'Palestinian' begin? For example like we have the Turks, the Iranians or Persians, the Arabs, the Americans, the French, the British etc., when did their national identity as 'Palestinians' begin?

I have seen the video before. However, Golda Meir' 's claims in it do not prove that the Palestinians didn't exist. Instead, they prove that she wanted a gullible public to believe they didn't exist. It was a strategic move to legitimize her own people's claim to the land of Palestine following the creation of the Jewish state in 1948.

A quick Google search will help you answer your other questions.

MrPresident1:
I corrected Bolivars to Bolivarians

Palestine people are called Palestinians. Who are the Palestinians?

Where is the extent of Palestine, and who are the original Palestinians?

1. No. That's not it. .Lagos is not equivalent to the others in your list . Look at it again. Lagos state is not the name of a country,but the name of a territory within the Nigerian state.

The correct thing should be , Lagos =Lagosians=Nigerians. Gaza=Gazans = Palestinians.

2, The Palestinians are primarily descended from the indigenous population of the Levant, with a genetic and cultural continuity that dates back thousands of years . Genetic studies confirms that modern Palestinians share significant ancestry with bronze age Canaanites and other ancient levantine people. This confirms a long standing presence in the region, not a foreign one.

sources ;
1. Genetic studies on Palestinian origin. Haber
2. Historical documents from the British mandate era .

Meir's statements about the Palestinians people are misleading. None of it is supported by authentic history . A people don't need a state to exist as a nation .

Before the British created the colonial state of Nigeria , there was no Nigerian state. But the land wasn't empty . There were clearly people living there for thousands of years. The Yorubas,Ibos Hausas, Fulanis and hundreds of other ethnic groups occupied the area.

The same applies to the modern day Palestinians. Their land wasn't empty before the creation of the modern state of Israel. It's a myth that it was.

MrPresident1:
Lagos people are called Lagosians
Canada people are called Canadians
Venezuela people are called Venezuelans
Bolivia people are Bolivars
Tunisia people are Tunisians
Algeria people are Algerians
Morocco people are Moroccans
Bangladesh people are Bangladeshi
Senegal people are Senegalese
Gambia people are Gambian
Sudan people are Sudanese

But Gaza people are Palestinians

So why are Gazans called Palestinians? Who are the parent stock of these 'Palestinians'? How did Gaza become synonymous with Palestine, is Gaza t only land in Palestine? Who are the other Palestinians or Palestinians are only found in Gaza?

There's something odd in your list above. If you can spot it, will help you answer your own question.

Palestinians are also found in the West Bank.

MrPresident1:
Next month, many nations have promised to recognise a 'state of Palestine'. What is a state of Palestine? Is it the same as state of Israeli?

Just a state and not a people?

Why are the people of Gaza called Palestinians instead of Gazans?

Why Palestinian instead of Gazan?

The same reason why Lagosians are called Nigerians.

The same reason Texans are called Americans.

Gaza ,just like Lagos and Texas to both Nigeria and America, is a part of the proposed state of Palestine . The other part is the West Bank .So,at the moment, before the creation of their state, the national identity is Palestinian.

This is the answer to your question.