chieveboy:


Agreed, the drift (a very big one) is: this electrocution measured let's say in 50kw will register and be experienced differently relative to body-mass, bio-electric state of the cells, etc.

The difference is not the relevant thing here but the fact that anyone who handles it has an experience of it as proof of it's existence .

Maynman:

Boy, you need, eyes, ears, noses, skins and brains to perceive REALITY, without it you cannot.

Close your eyes and think of a color that has not existed before...

@cheiveboy. See what I mean? . You failed to grasp what he meant the first time

chieveboy:


Okay, I will insult you small

This is the first time you have really showed us you have 'number 6'. Impressive!

Lordreed, triplechoice

The stone the builders have rejected o...
Mayman has cracked the code for you guys.

Are you sure you understand what he explained ?

chieveboy:


Ah, and I will really love to hear your views on the yardsticks aused to determine Objectivity. I will do this popcorn in hand.

Cc lordreed.

Anyone,who handles, without any form of protection , a high tension cable carrying electricity, will surely be electrocuted .Not "agreeing "won't save you .

I have just given you something to work with to get your answer yourself .

chieveboy:


Very well, even though I'm surprised you're asking this.

Example: Dangote cement is agreed to be a cement product with distinct quantity and quality. Left to erstwhile definitions, that product is Objectively Dangote Cement.

Why? Because of its quantity and quality (compositions, branding etc). This is the yardstick for establishing a global on the objectivity of Dangote Cement.


Not going too far, if I can't see the qualities (because I am visually impaired), I am not able to join the group of those who say Dangote Cement is objectively Dangote Cement. My handicap prevents me from that agreement.


Since no two people are alike psycho-biologically, it means we can possible never observe anything the same way. This is more true given the fact that even what we thought were seeing isn't entirely what is there to see, for us to delimit the bounds of its reality and existence.

So we merely agree to work with what we are and have for the sake of 'peace' and order to reign. We can't kill ourselves...



If i stated what you quoted here, this must be a mistake. I must have meant "perception is influenced by subjective dynamics" or so. This is in line with even my original argument from the beginning.

Look at the attached image, it is the same spider we all thought we objectively agreed is a spider. If you send someone this image and say it's a spider, they may beg to differ

It's not through the mere agreement of the non visually impaired that has determined the quality of dangote cement ,but through an objective scientific process called quality control used in testing the products before it's released to the market .

So whether you can see the cement with your eyes or not doesn't count for anything . You only confirmed the quality ,that's already established , when you use it.

The product has been independently confirmed to be of a particular kind of quality . It has nothing to do with any kind of subjective collective agreement .


You "re creating confusion @ cheiveboy . You op doesn't agree with what you "re saying after it.

LordReed:


OK. I don't argue with solipsists or enter solipsistic traps so have a good one.

Oh. A very suitable description of what he has been doing on a thread he created himself .

chieveboy:


Exactly, it's why I said all we've been branding as reality or objectivity all the while is merely us agreeing to label our limited views (of larger and broader object, perspective or experience) as being objective and real in the sense of the word while it is not.

Then ,tell us how we should correctly describe it

chieveboy:


Yea I thought we should have done this earlier:

Subjective: Experience as perceived by a subject relative to the state of their sensoria (nose, eyes, skin, state of mind...).

Objective (Based on conventional definitions): Perception not influenced by subjective influences.

One needs to be sure of what you have described
So,

1. Provide examples of how "a subject" perceives those experiences relative to the state of their "sensorial" nose ,eyes ,skin ,etc.
2."perception not influenced by subjective influences " .How does this happen . Example or examoles also needed too so one can picture accurately what you 're referring to.

budaatum:


Interesting.

Mention me so I don't miss what you share please.

Ok

budaatum:
To illustrate. I thought I knew how my opponent's mind worked until he shocked me with [url=m.gameknot.com/analyze-board.pl?bd=33987370&fb=1&rnd=0.8511828548482838]the reality of my ignorance[/url].

You jumped the gun already . It's not about me ,my own mind . The story I shared is to be used as a good example of the information I wanted to share later.

The "about how the human mind works" is not my findings alone but those of neuroscientist who have done the "dirty job"

In other words it's not my conclusions .So, it's not what you "re already assuming to be .

Hold on . Let my get the microphone working first . I have not even started

chieveboy:


Oh okay. I think you have come home then.

Since you are not seeing the entire spectrum, 'reality' or 'objective' then is us saying "look, let's just agree this is objective ('whole' and 'independent' 'fact'), even though this is not so.

Cc triplechoice

You're using not seeing the "entire spectrum" to argue that nothing is objectively real ?

Yes or no ?

Who Tinubu is , is not the same as what he is ,the entire spectrum which "we" cannot know . You seem not to know the difference .

Because the former can't be known, doesn't mean he is not "there" He is .

The entity ,Tinubu, is not an illusion that "we" have collectively agreed to exist .

Do you dispute that ?

chieveboy:


The constituent of Tinubu we collectively agreed is Tinubu.

Who are the "we" that has collectively agreed and how did the "we" all arrived at this agreement ?

chieveboy:


You came close to where I am coming from. The issue is, the Tinubu you knew a second ago is not the same Tinubu you (think) you knew the next second.

This is so even if we work with the common reality that the very particles that makes our physical body's are constantly in a state of flux, which gave rise to the saying that "nothing remains the same".

If so, we are only agreeing to agree that this flux (dynamism), which appears as a static or Constants to our mortal sensoria is static or 'real', and that we are seeing the same thing even though we are not (since all is changing and moving).

A dog (due to their senses) isn't seeing the objective Tinubu, whatever the dog sees is actually part of Tinubu humans are not seeing, so Tinubu isn't actually Objective in the sense of the word.

"Nothing remains the same " does not mean nothing .There's something objectively real that doesn't remain the same however you perceive it . That's my point .

Please answer this question ,

Who is the current president of Nigeria ?

chieveboy:
This question is coming from the heels of those who downplay religious experiences like Visions, OBEs, Trances as "it's just your subjective experience", "it's not Objective" so "it ain't real".

Thread...

But non religious people can also experience visions ,"OBEs" and trance .

For instance , die hard Peter obi and Tinubu supporters are currently going through a trance of loyalty for their preferred candidate, and that's why they struggle to see things objectively .

Now ,to answer the op, one's reaction( "collective agreement" ) to a thing that exist is not the same as the thing itself . In other words, your reaction is a creation of your mind and not the thing itself .

Does Peter obi and Tinubu exist ,yes they do .
Are their fanatical supporters capable of an objective perception of them ?

You should know the answer already .

budaatum:


Though you were not consciously aware, you had previously acquired the knowledge to place yourself in front of the switchboard to turn off the power plus you consider others. Those who lack the knowledge you had stood confused because they did not know.

.

Yes ,you got that completely right . After I finished recounting the incident in my previous post , I instantly got why I was quick to react that way based on what I now about how the human mind stores information to control one's behaviour automatically. But as at that time, I didn't know much to explain it. So was mystified .

Before that day , I remember that the same person, who was being electrocuted ,had been instructing me (not everyday though ) to go into the room, where the main switchboard hung on the wall , to switch it off once it was time to close and completely shut down the factory . leaving only the security lights on.

But I wasn't the only doing that for him . Anyone close to him during final shut down ,he would send .

Besides , other workers who had been doing the same thing for him before I was employed were also present on that day.

But not a single one of them followed me to switch off.

That, I remember now , was what made him really grateful I was present on that particular day, if not .

Good that this thread has made me to recollect that incident . I would be using it one of these days to show what I know about how the human mind works . Thank you

justlove91:

It is hard but it's practicable.

It seems you do not understand the concept of moral mandala well. It doesn't mean there is no motivation for doing good but that the motivation is humanity orientated and not self orientated. Let me give examples of moral mandala.

I understand it very well . It's you that's starting to create confusion with some vague descriptions, like the one below .

1. I'm wealthy, I noticed people in my village are suffering from poor health due to no access to pure source of water. I decide to improve their living condition by building hospital and provide pure source of water.

In the above scenario, I have a motivation but the motivation is directed at them (improve their living condition) and not directed at me (to gain fame or be viewed as a good person, or to gain favour from God etc).

The bolded doesn't make any sense . You are the one doing the good and the motivation for you is the happiness you get from what you do for others. . In the above scenario ,the benefit is mutual . You gain and they gain too.

So what are you "transferring " to them so you become unhappy in building the hospital ?

Who is happy to receive a gift from an unhappy person ?

Maybe you want to say ,you did it without the expectation of reward from them ,paying you back directly , and not "transferring motivation" to them .

And yes ,doing good without expecting to be paid back for it by the person you "re doing it for , is what I consider pure morality .

But that shouldnt be a business activity that you want to profit from if not ,you won't succeed in it.

2. A house is burning, you rushed inside to save a child inside.
Saving the child is your motivation and not becoming a hero.

And you think anyone in such a situation would be thinking of that before rescuing the child .No.

You have created something that doesn't happen in real life .

I believe anyone, theist or atheist , who is moved to save a child in a burning fire would react automatically without thinking of becoming an hero . It's the people around that gives the recognition of hero after . And whether you accept the recognition or not ,it's your cup of tea . You have become their hero and nothing can change that.

I once rescued a colleague, who was being electrocuted in a factory where I worked when I was 19. . Till today I cannot explain how I suddenly found myself in front of the switchboard to turn of power as my other colleagues stood confused and not knowing what to do . It was as if a greater force took control to direct everything . I wasn't thinking at all .

Adrenaline? That's the rational explanation i ,but there were other people there too , six of them ,,not me alone . Maybe their own adrenaline wasn't functioning

The next day ,my colleague came with nearly everyone from both his immediate and extended family members to thank me as if I saved the world . And I really did not see myself as any hero ,or thought I did something great because I kept asking myself how did I get to the swichboard , without thinking ? I didn't do it consciously. It's was automatic .

I wasn't a Christian then ,nor know anything about moral mandala . So what was my motivation ?

See, no matter what you think about doing it for God or fear of hell fire ,a theist who risked his life to save a child in the situation you described .has practiced the highest form of moral purity . He put his life on the line for another person and that's not selfish . It's a selfless action however you see it.

Doing it for God or fear of hell fire is a means to an end created by some religion to train the average human being ,who is selfish and self centered, to become a doer of good .Try to see the good in that one and don't rate it has inferior and moral mandala as superior . If not to take advantage of another ,good is good .


Not everyone has evolved to the point where they can engage in selfless service without some benefit to entice them or fear to motivate them . That's the reality of the world we all life in ..

I rather we have more people in the world motivated to doing good to benefit others around them because of God or hell fire than only a few who can do it for any other reason , humanity sake .

My bad

Don't bother

justlove91:
@triplechoice

This only applies to the second guy, the first guy has already bought the charger, had given it to her so the good is already completed, but he went back and nullify the good.

Even though it didn't last , your friend already used the charger to power her laptop to use it , and that's the good she benefited . . She should be grateful for the temporary good she got from a stranger whose true intention she was too naive to detect .

He didn't nullify what she already used it for , that's charging her laptop (the good). He only stopped it after realising it was bad investment; He was not going to earn anything from it in return .
And why does your friend think she's entitled to a brand new charger from just anyone . It's her fault she was treated that way. Some girls won't accept such a gift from any man because they don't want to be asked to return the favour in some way later . . I hope she learnt something from that . How many Nigerian men would buy you something for free ?

If she had bought the charger with her own hard earn money and it later got spoilt after using it for some time ,would she go back to the buyer to say the 'buying ' is nullified since it has stopped working ?

My friends are actually the ladies telling me of their unpleasant experience with guys.

. 1. They should learn from it .
2.You created the confusion because you didn't specify your friends among the four characters in the story .

Freezyhot:

Refuelling...?! Na wa o... CNG buses..?

He's very correct .

Gas ,oil ,coal ,wood etc are different types of fuel .

And feul is anything consumed to produce energy .
Before you mock someone make you know first .

Not advisable if your wife steals from you .

Most men who lock their phones do so because they discovered that their spouses cant be trusted . They steal from them and. others too..

I remember one such men now as I type this. When he went to the bank to complain that money was mysteriously disappearing from his account, he was asked by the customer service after checking , "who is Mrs so so and so ?

He replied, "my wife "

He was then informed that the money has been disappearing into her bank account in another bank .

He then ask the customer service again ,"why don't I receive any alert each time she transfer money into her account ?

The reply that came next was ,"she obviously was deleting it so you don't know about. it"

And when he got home and confronted the wife about. what he discovered ,she denied that she was the one .

So wiith a wiife like that ,what do you expect the man to do next?

Lock the phone and don't tell her the password .

justlove91:

I'm not condemning or judging anyone harshly for doing good because of God, I believe it's better than doing bad because of God.

And if you read OP well you will see where I said I wish I do not believe in law of sowing and reaping so as to practice moral mandala much more. This means I still do good with the intention of reaping good in mind. I just find the concept of moral mandala such more appealing. .

Ok. But do you agree that the concept of moral mandala is not practicable.

It's hard to continue with that for long without getting disinterested at some point or struggling to continue. You need some form of motivation to propel you forward .

.

I do not believe this, as a Spiritist I believe in afterlife, law of sowing and reaping and channeled messages through mediums. All messages channelled through medium agree that what motivates an action is much more relevant than the action itself in the life beyond.

"No matter what motivates you "should not have been interpreted by you to mean motivation is not relevant .

I have not said motivation is not important or relevant . Infact ,I emphasised it's relevance in kick-starting and sustaining ones drive in doing good . That's what I said .
Please go back and read again .

justlove91:

So we can both agree there are two ways to use "Good"
- As a mean to an end (the politician)
- As an end in itself.

The question of which is better remain subjective.

Why have you placed the word ,good ,in quotes and then follow it up with something that doesn't connect to it.

An action of good will always result in something for the doer of good ,and that's why everyone does good with the hope thejy benefit from it somehow .

And good is good inrespective of what we want to achieve with it. The good of the politician and those of others are the same good .

And I'm afraid you still continue to see it subjectively and that's because you want to argue that people can do good all the time without any kind of motivation , moral mandala as against doing it for a God . You 're resisting reality since it's not possible to do good everytime for 'itself "

Peope can find motivation for doing good from any where and it doesn't matter where . What matters is that it helps them to do good and continue doing so.

So God or moral mandala for humanity sake ,the choice is yours .

I don't practice any religion but won't because of that condemn or judge harshly anyone doing good because of a God.

Good is good no matter what motivates you to do it .

The intention to do good is not the same as the motivation for doing good . You seem not to know the difference .

Someone may have the intention to do good ,but cannot find the motivation to proceed and because of that does nothing .

justlove91:


@bolded
I will reply you by pasting my reply to triplechoice that I asked you to read earlier showing that sometimes the good being done change if the motive is not right.

You see, motive is very important because if a good is used as a means to an end and the end is not realised, people tend to destroy the good. Let me give two examples.

These happened to two of my friends.

1. The laptop charger of a friend got spoilt so it became stressful to charge her laptop because she has to wait for others to finish charging and the light was not stable.
This guy offered (she didn't ask him to) to buy her a charger with the intention that through that she will agree to his advances.
When the guy got rejected again after buying the charger, he angrily collected the charger back and destroyed it to spite her.

2. She was out on the street, it was about to rain. A guy offered to give her a lift but with the intention of getting her number. After driving for some minutes, it starts to rain, one thing lead to another, he asked for her number, she declined, and can you guess what the guy did? He dropped her on the road while it was still raining.

Those guys used the "good" as a means to an end but when the end was not achieved they destroyed the good.

No. They didn't destroy the good they did at first . They only discontinued doing good due to lack of motivation from realising they wont benefit anything if they continue .

Your reaction to your friends action is subjective . You cannot see that any good can come from it in the end hence you judge them wrongly . It's possible it leads to marriage . Who knows ?

Their reaction after, not before, the girl rejected them is also subjective . I neither support that kind of behaviour , or encourage it.Not everyone reacts that way .

So, I think it's safe to say ,your friends are no gentlement from the way they behaved later ,but however, they actually tried to do some good as a means to an end, and that good was never destroyed . The lady enjoyed it if only temporarily

justlove91:


What I mean by that in the context of the example is that the rich man ought to build the hospital or charity organisation simply for the improved health and living condition the people will get, that is making the people the end. .

Don't forget that the rich man in your context is also a politician . In other words ,the context is politics and the rich man is who? a politician .

So ,he did no wrong at all to build an hospital for the people in order to motivate them to vote for him . The rules behind the game of politics allows for that kind of behaviour ,and on the personal level we all engage in that kind of politics which is normal :To marry a woman or man ,you must play politics ,if not ,you remain single .

In politics ,people are only motivated to vote for you if you first of all demonstrate what you can do in the present moment , or capable of doing later after you win the election. The electorates won't vote for you for voting sake .You must make promises or better still do something first they can enjoy to encourage them. That's it. .

Rather than taking those actions as a stepping stone on the way to his end (political power or fame), that is making the people the means to an end.

It's to motivate the electorates to vote for him . It's not wrong and at least the people are benefiting something and may continue to benefit after the election if he wins .
And you 're getting it wrong .The peope are not the means to an end ,but the hospital itself ,without which they won't vote for him .

justlove91:


@bolded

Of course a rich man could build hospital and charity organisation with the wrong motive (maybe fame or political ambition) and people will still be better off with it than without it.
But it will be much better for the people to be the end rather than a mean to an end.

As a said earlier, I'm not sure about mother Teresa's intention.

Please be clear about the bolded .

LordReed:


This is my position as well. I find I am less bothered by why people do good things than that they do it at all.Your motivations for doing good will not make you superior or inferior to some other person who has a different motivation.

Exactly .

Whatever reason one finds for doing good doesn't matter . What matters is that we are good to those around us because at the end of the day it benefits us more, whether moral mandala or God.



Not many persons will bother to confirm first the motivation behind any act of kindness shown to them before showing gratitude.

It's more important to focus on the good in doing good and receiving it from whoever, than on the motive behind it. Any other thing is for the purist to debate on.

And it's your personal opinion that mother Theresa is what you described her to be . The thousands of people ,who benefited from her act of kindness, rate her differently and that's because they received real life saving help from her and not just the reason behind the help .

A good person is a good person wherever you find him.

LegendHero:


But certificate is not money. Don’t be a dullard.

I can photocopy my certificate and still use it legally.

But I can’t photocopy money because it is only useable legally in its original form.

You must be a fool then for intially comparing paper money issued by financial institution such as CBN and an uncertified document reprinted by an anonymous third party agent .

Please stop replying and take your stupidity elsewhere .

LegendHero:


The signature is always static for the given period. Even on the certificate the school issued, the signature is printed and that is why they are so identical to a fault.

Do you think the school VC for example will be signing every damn student certificate?

It’s just like saying CBN sign every paper money issued by themselves.

Can you as an individual reprint paper money that carries the signature of the CBN governor?

Kobojunkie:
1. Not worth investing mental energy into abeg!

2. My experience?

Well, I was aware I had mental problems even as a child but those around me couldn't quite comprehend what I meant, and several fed me bullsheet stories about how I was special. I had so many questions but none of those around me seemed to have answers for any of the questions that plagued me from my youth. I noticed that they seemed to rationalize anything and focus attention on whatever it was they could find to distract them from all the core questions one ought to ask in this life.

Anyway, I continued to struggle with my personal mental and neurological demons— depression, anxiety, panic, and narcolepsy as I later found out — until about a decade ago when it dawned on me that my mind was finally giving out on me. I couldn't cope anymore with all the stress and I couldn't keep up with even regular conversation. I believe I lost my language at that point — aphasia— It was then that forced myself to seek mental health treatment. I did get treatment for several years but I think my case was far gone at that time so eventually the meds began failing me only two years in and I found myself back at square one again. I was able to make it finally a matter of life and death. I felt it was better to die than continue existing for the sake of existence with the hell in my brain, so I went back to the questions about life and meaning that had plagued me since my childhood. I resolved to find answers to die. I began reading through religious books to find any god that would respond to me. As one who has actually traversed the length and breadth of the mind, I was ready to honestly seek answers that were outside of my mind which I was sure had none to offer. I was not going to fool myself with any more delusions.

I did as instructed in almost all the other books I had read and nothing happened or came down. No answers! So, along the way, when I came to the bible, I decided to research claims made by God in order to follow the instructions as well just as I had done with the other information I had found in other religious books. Somehow, I began to notice a sort of presence surrounding me at the time. But recall I also had mental illness and neurological issues as my bedfellows at that time so I tried not to think too much of the new sensation but it did creep me out how things seemed to suddenly align and begin making sense more than they ever did. It was like I was not alone anymore but I could not explain it cause I truly believed it was my mind playing tricks on me. I remember that while researching the Bible, I remember wondering what happened after the disciples exited the scene, and then one day, I entered a shop and it seemed I was being led to the book section — a place I rarely ever went in that particular store since it was all very old books on the shelf. But then a particular book caught my eye. I opened it and lo and behold, the answers to the questions that I had were in the book. This sort of thing became a regular occurrence as though some invisible power was able to read my mind and lead me to what it was that I needed answered or even needed.

Then one night, after I had again practiced what I had read in the book as before, I got home and everything changed. Out of my mouth, a foreign dialect began to pour out every time I tried to say something and I was certain that someone else was there with me. I called up my family and reported that I had made some sort of connection with aliens and I think I was possessed by one of them. That was my first-ever experience with the supernatural. And the beginning of my journey toward the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So, long and short, I was aware my major problem was mental, and physical, even though those around me did not agree. But because mental illness has a way of imposing a sort of laziness on one, I did not get help in time for it, and that fault was all mine as I kept getting caught in one mental delusion or the other in my bid to find answers for the questions that plagued me. While on treatment, I gained enough clarity to realize the delusions for what they were, identify them, and fight back. However, with meds eventually failing, it was hard to keep the fight going but I got clear enough to realize that resolving the questions would get me a lot closer to where I could maybe live above the fog for a while. Fortunately, I found the spiritual and began my journey toward complete resolution of the mental and neurological problems that had plagued me all of my life.

Oh! What an inspiring story!


And this what I'm talking about !

Your personal story of going through very challenging times, when all hope seems lost , and then finally finding a way to rise above it ,can only serve as great encouragement and healing for others currently going through the same thing or anything closer to it .

You have gone through the valley of the shadow of death and with that fear has been completely removed from your life .

The greatest challenge in life is to eradicate fear and once that is done nothing can defeat you anymore .


Thanks for sharing ,but I'm already worried about what some fools on this board, whose major occupation is trolling, would want to do with the things you have opened up about your past struggles.

Just take care of yourself .

Thanks once again .

Kobojunkie:
1. Read my initial post for answers.

2. Concerning what exactly?

1. We are on the same page on this , and I quite agree with you that one should first of all rule out natural causes from a doctor or professional before anything else.

But the problem is that most people in this part of the world are unable to listen in order to understand what you 're saying . It's always flying past their heads,

And the major reason for that, in case you don't know, is because they hold on wrongly to the idea that "the spiritual controls the physical" .

That statement ,which has been misconstrued and not well understood ,especially within Pentecostal Christianity ,has unfortunately become a thought blocking phrase that hinders clear thinking and prevents them from doing the correct thing .


They really don't understand what it means to say the " spiritual controls the physical " and when to apply it. The just repeat it unthinkingly on just about anything .

Even ordinary malaria is attributed to spiritual causes that requires prayers to cure it instead of cheap over the counter antimalaria drugs .




2.If there was anytime in your life when everyone around thought a problem you had was spiritual and were offering prayers to deliver you without success , until you chose to see a doctor ,or professional on your own or with the help of others , where it was finally resolved ? . Yes, any personal experience ?

This is what I do whenever I want to advise some religious persons about seeking professional help . I usually find that very effective in the long run .

.People pay more attention and learn better from what you have gone through yourself ,not just mere advice and that's why they say experience is always the best teacher .



In any case ,you' re not under any obligation to share your personal experiences . You 're free to do what you like .

Thank you .

Kobojunkie:
An OK from your doctors should do.

2. An example of what exactly?

1. What does an ok 'from your doctor' mean ?
Are you saying that a medical doctor can let one know a problem is spiritual ? .

2. Any experience of anyone you know concerning this . It could be you .

I believe you 're speaking from experience , and we know that people learn better from stories or what others have experienced .

Kobojunkie:
First be sure it has been sufficiently ruled out. Then and only then should one even come using the term spiritual.

Ok.
But how can one be sure it has been sufficiently ruled out ?

Can you give an example to make it more clearer .