₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
Ahhh the absolutely marvellous Fry. I wish I could meet some of these people. On the subject though senescence is another baffling aspect of this whole god business.

No it isn't.
Death (and all that is wrong with the world) entered through sin. God's creation was perfect. And it will be restored. Join us .


TV

DeepSight:
I mentioned you because of your claim that there is no such thing as the evolution of morality (as per Christian morality at least).

I maintain my position. It is not a claim I make, it is clearly shown from the pages of the biblical text.

God made man in His image
God made man to commune with Him
The basis for all relationships between God and man and between men is to be love
Love does no harm to another. Rather it seeks their best interest - sacrificially if need be!
God Himself demonstrated that sacrificial love to us and for us.
That's good enough for simple me.

All other religions worldviews or philosophies allow harm. Including atheistic, humanistic and materialist ones. Nothing matches the Christian basis as simply stated above.


TV

jedisco:
You're asking me to guesstimate the future which no one can. I haven't watched Nigeria from afar - it's been my lived experience.

It must be hard. Living in what is a spiralling situation . Knowing what average, good or even great would look like. Knowing that it isn't even new and can't be that hard. But everyday you seem to be moving further away from what shouldn't be too difficult or take too long to achieve.

Nigeria has been your lived experience and yet you have no idea when it will get better, let alone good. You can't say with any confidence when and how it will get better or admit that it is fast deteriorating?

The cope must be painful. The strawman of "white-skin good, black skin bad" gives one a nice out and even the smugness of sounding virtuous, but it doesn't answer any questions.

No one is making the race argument, but the fact remains that societies arising out of the western cultural milieu are altogether better, generally more ordered, better administered and more advanced. The question of why that is and, how and when Nigeria will level up still remains.

If it helps, move away from Nigeria, Africa even. Indian nationals run Mag7 companies. Have high ranking operators in all the western nations where they have a significant presence. So it's clear it's nothing about them as humans beings, or their skin tone. But their home nation is still relatively backward.

"Why" is not an unreasonable question to ask? How India will level up should be in view. Especially when Indian nationals are flocking to the West. Because if those questions are not asked and Indians continue to migrate, what is that saying exactly?

jedisco:
To insinuate that we had no history or would have amounted to nothing without colonialism is frankly absurd and belittling.

On the contrary, no one said you had no history , culture or traditions. The question is "what in that culture, those traditions or the history suggest what Nigeria may have developed into in lieu of slavery, or absent colonialism.

I have heard all sorts. That left alone, Africans would have been launching satellites. The science "white" people used to advance, was stolen from "black" people. I hear it casually mentioned in black settings that black people have "better genes" or superior intellects - to nods of agreement.

Listen carefully. At the time of slavery, Africans were trading people for beads, mirrors and umbrellas. Nothing near the apex technologies or innovations the west had even then. Does that suggest an advanced technological society? Or one that would have produced automobiles before the west - if at all?

jedisco:
If you're asking for a when i.e guesstimating the future, you'd get better luck gazing at glass crystals. Just like lots of societies had peaks in the past, Nigeria would have hers and recent history has shown tremendous development can be achieved quickly- even in a single generation.

That's not true though is it? "Guesstimating" is not required. Modern developing economies can project, model, track indices, map strategies, set goals and objectives, review metrics. No guessing required sir.

"Nigeria would have hers" - when, how on what basis. Your whole spiel is assertion. Mere hope as best. Like I noted in my earlier response, you say a lot but make no cogent points. Nothing that is actionable or can be pinned down, tracked or reviewed.

Your point about "tremendous development being achieved in a single generation" makes the case against Nigeria, not for. The nations that "achieved" development of this nature, did it simply happen for them spontaneously, or out of nowhere? No roadmap, no vision, no blueprints?

All the developed nations had an upward trajectory. SA reverted to black-majority rule barely a generation ago. Is it as good today? Is it better? What is its trajectory?

jedisco:
It's quite telling that you belive a group of people lack the inate ability to build a functional society.

I'll give you double for your money. If you admit people from less-developed nations into a functional society at scale, it will experience
rapid deterioration - whatever their colour.

jedisco:
I'd end by saying one great impediment to our progress is sadly a group of people who think like you- folks who think others are inately better than them.

Yep, if TV01 says Jedisco can't progress, and Jedisco doesn't progress, it's TV01's fault for being a naysayer. Listen to yourself.


TV

DeepSight:
TV01, basilico, ono a very short clip

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MYoqBRdH0S0

cc: LordReed

You caught me at a good time - I simply cannot keep up with the pace here. Watched the clip 2ce.

Qureshi' argument was not actually responded too. He is correct in stating that atheistic morality cannot be absolute.
Dawkins proceeded to create a few strawmen, conflate religions and then assert secular thinking is what drives current day morality.

I have repeatedly stated the biblical writ giving love as the basis for all human interactions. Secular humanist morality gave us the slave trade and a brethren evil - abortion (amongst others). And humanist\secular\material morality will always prove inferior to the biblical basis of love for your fellow man as created in the image of God.

Most of what is claimed to be secular morality (Western style, as it is not universally accepted) has its basis in the bible.

And he couldn't help but liken it to "Intelligent Design" - God that is !

Any more for any more?


TV

jedisco:
By 'we' and 'our' you mean?

I mean
those who live here ancestrally, by birth-right or a regulated migration pathway, who love this nation and appreciate its history and traditions. Who strive for the nations good, and contribute at a minimum by being law-abiding and being or adopting the courteous, polite, warm and welcoming nature that is the hallmark of everyday British life. We are British and Britain is ours .

I do not mean
I don't mean the passport ho's or the papers tarts, or the grifters, the mercenaries, who are only here for what they can gain. Who care not for the traditions, the history or the sacrifices that built this nation. Who don't really give a toss about continuing or building on that legacy, and the ongoing flourishing of this country. Those who could not care less what direction the nation goes as long as they prosper personally.

Not those who seek to introduce or impose inimical practices from alien lands, or insist that regressive foreign behaviour can be normalised, or that backward religious legal codes can or should be enforced over our native jurisprudence.

Nor those who hail from backward countries, but are ungrateful, entitled and demanding. Those who expect everything to bend to suit them. I don't mean those who arrive here from places were lawlessness is widely accepted and cry foul and play the victim when there is pushback, who can't accept that their lawlessness in not at least winked at, if not outright celebrated.

Neither those deluded, who keep telling us there is nothing here, but won't return to the utopias they fled from . Who deride what they find, but can't point to anything worth mimicking back home.

Hope that's clear. I'll be back to respond to your earlier mewling cum tap-out later.

Toodles.

TV

Zahra29:
As expected, but good to hear nonetheless.

Please explain the bolded...curious why the rampaging yobs wouldn't be motivated to attack you, but would attack the mixed heritage Kenyans?

The 2024 riots were ignited in Stockport after 3 young girls were slaughtered and a number of others brutally attacked and injured. People on here claim the riots were motivated by racism. Please ask them how many ethnic or religious minorities were harmed during the riots. What were the casualties. Ask them what the response would be if that happened back in their homelands

"Inherency" - you can't escape it.


TV

Zahra29:
I understand the thrust of your argument, however it's a tricky one as there are some who will never assimilate or see Britain as their home, even though they are an nth generation immigrant,

Ultimately the question is do we want this country to retain and advance on it's received traditions? The morés that engendered the liberties, freedoms and prosperity we enjoy today. Behaviours and practices from many of the incoming cultures are alien and regressive and will change what we have for the worse - given the large numbers being allowed in.

And please, don't get me wrong, I believe a deleterious unmooring from these historical roots and the subsequent malaise had already begun. Mass untrammelled immigration and the attendant issues are just symptoms, accelerants, not the root cause.

Unassimilable migrants should never have been allowed in. More broadly compatibility, loyalty and patriotism is a rightful expectation of anyone who moves here. My positions are all in the best interest of the country. And in that regard, everything should be on the table.

Zahra29:
while others will be a 2nd, and perhaps even 1st gen immigrant but will be fully integrated, contributing and loyal.

I did acknowledge that, but needs must. Sorry, not sorry. Because if not, we will be. Why on earth do we have sitting MPs who are running on foreign issues, councillors who are dual hatting in foreign countries.


TV

Zahra29:
Even after becoming a British citizen?

Yes.

We permit entry to people from diverse backgrounds and with dffering beliefs - in large numbers. It's quite clear, that for many of those, politically at least, conduct and participation vary in ways that are inimical to our long-held tradition and practices. Even if that wasn't clear previously, it is now.

And, I accept, there are some that would fit right in. But the protection of our institutions and systems is paramount. A few generations to settle in and understand won't hurt .


TV

Lexusgs430:
And where did I say this........ 🤔

Apologies if I mis-ascribed a position to you.

Where this started, was a Nigerian national who committed large-scale fraud in the UK possibly being deported. No?
There was a question about that possibly happening even if he had dual - British - nationality.

My entry point was "not possible" - unless in cases of treason or terrorism and statelessness couldn't be in view.
You raised cases that are outliers and involve treason and\or terrorism. The case in question was debateable, which I agreed.

I am actually happy that the default position for serious crime by immigrants should be deportation - not just terrorism or treason.

Lest I make the same mistake, what exactly was your point by introducing those outliers? What is your position on the whole? At the verry least it seems to suggest, that "certain" UK Govts could proceed to do something illegal\questionable against minority immigrants if they could get away with it.


TV

Lexusgs430:
But according to you, the UK government CANNOT render someone STATELESS...... 🇬🇧😂😊

The UK Govt made the case that she had not been made stateless by them - she had been made stateless by her refusal to take up the Bangladeshi citizenship which was her birthright.

Arguable I agree. Debateable, certainly. But I am happy that the greater interest of this nation and its citizens was served by the decision. I would also argue she had pledged allegiance to the terrorist state of ISIS, they can have her.

I actually think the law should be varied to strip her of her citizenship rights even if it would render her stateless. To me that sounds perfectly apt for offences of terrorism or treason - as would the death sentence. Add to that the right to strip her immigrant parents of their citizenship rights as well. Also stripped, should be any immigrant that commits a serious criminal offence.

Funny how you are agueing against revoking citizenship for terrorists. A true patriot huh? Further, I don't think 1st generation immigrants should be able to vote or hold political office. Second generation the vote only.



TV

Lexusgs430:
If you are aware of her case, and still ask me to explain...... I go dey explain tire........🤣😂

I was of a mind no too, but someone has kindly offered this - https://www.nairaland.com/8656177/nurse-branded-risk-refusing-use#139149339


TV

jedisco:
I'm hoping you're not alluding to what I think it is. Yes Nigeria does have its challenges- some of which may be unique bust so does every society. I'm not alluding to anything.

Just calling it as I see it. I have watched - mostly from afar - Nigeria for decades. All nations have challenges. That's what humans are here for - to overcome them. The question is how and when will Nigeria develop to a degree that it's citizens are are able to live decent lives and be mostly content to live there.

jedisco:
Thruout human history, different economies have risen and fallen with many building on the remnants of the last. The coming of the industrial revolution was a huge breakthrough but that also did not arise from a vacuum. For much of human history, alot of economic activity/development was centred in Asia. European dominance is relatively a recent phenomenon - that too is changing.

Fine as far as it goes, but what does it mean? What does it tell us about the when and how for Nigeria?

jedisco:
The only solution to development is not an 'advanced western style liberal democracy' Today, we have examples of advanced societies that have not blindly copied the west- some needed to deviate from some preachings of the west to develop. Like I have said many times, the ultimate yardstick of measuring governments should be their ability to bring good to their people and also foster greater improvement to the human race.

I did'nt say the western model was the only solution. And I did ask what native "development would look like". However the case remains that the west could at least be used as a measure. And, like the wedding adage "something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue", Nigeria can look within or take anything from anywhere and incorporate it. There isn't even the need to invent anything new.

jedisco:
Regarding your last two questions, I'd prefer you first answer those.

You didn't respond to my opener?

The first of the last 2, I don't know? Who can tell. Giving the benefit of hindsight and the knowledge of how we were, in what way is it likely that we would have developed?

I see nothing that gives me the belief that Nigeria can. And so far, it hasn't. It's for whoever believes Nigeria can, to describe how and when.


TV

jedisco:
@the bolded, why do you think that to be the case?

Perception... hmmm... In todays world I'd see that as almost trash. By the way, why is China so low on the list?

Let me start by doing the most annoying but typical of things - answering a question with a question .
"The level of development Nigeria currently experiences, how did it come about?"

But to attempt as brief and succinct a reply as possible, I'll offer this - my opinion.

There are some compounding issue, which I consider second order, like the entrenched tribalism, which is further exacerbated by extreme sectarianism, which would hinder any group of people.

But for me, the main issue is that the development most have in mind is a facsimile of what obtains in the West. And what obtains in the West is due to a combination of it's socio-cultural heritage, and all the things that informed that, particularly in my view the religion.

What is there, that is natal to Nigeria, Africa more widely, or any individual people group within it, that suggests if left to their own devices, over time an advanced western style liberal democracy would emerge?

Asked based on 2 scenarios. The first, if there had never been any western interference, what would development look like? The second, after the fact that there has been, which however viewed, left a modicum of "development", why couldn't it be maintained or built upon in any meaningful way.


TV

LordReed:
What part of what I wrote says show me an invention from the Bible?

Bro you have to be disturbed to be this disingenuous.

- I heard someone advising you to "take the L" on an earlier discussion piece. Now I can see why.

OK, please explain exactly what you meant by this statement (we'll overlook your garbled grammar )

LordReed:
Which inventions came directly from Christianity study?

Maybe I owe you an apology . You may be whingey, emotional and given to hyperbole, but also right regards the point in question. Go on hit me with that "L" and I'll duly reply with an "A"


TeeVee

Lexusgs430:
Ever heard of Shamina Begum or Hilal al-Jedda:...... 😂🤣

Yes I have.
How did the UK Government render her stateless?

justwise:
You sure about that?

I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. Kindly show otherwise.


TV

Goke7:
Apologies, I must have missed that as I didn’t see it

No apologies required. I wanted to clarify the point.

Lexusgs430:
British nationals can of course be deported, if citizenship wasn't a birth right (via nationalisation or other equivalents).....

Citizenship can be revoked, if one sins against his majesty or earns a stint at his majesties pleasure....😉

IFF they are dual nationals and guilty of the most heinous of crimes - read treason or terrorism. As a corollary, the law does not permit the government to leave you stateless.


TV

LordReed:
LoLz. You have even moved to lying now. Quote where I said "Show me an invention from the pages of the bible". It's just clear you weren't parodying, you were outright lying. Bwahahahahahaha!

Bro whatever is disturbing you is not me that caused it, ok. LoLz.

Nothing disturbs TV01 .

Presumably you'll try to wriggle your way out of this with an exact word fallacy

LordReed:
Which inventions came directly from Christianity study?

or this

LordReed:
That is not an invention but even at that, it did not come about by Christianity study.

The position was all about the ethos\culture\milieu that a faith engendered and what advance or progress emanated from that. Think more, whinge less


TV

Goke7:
We are a greedy people; we cry about oppression, but we keep making things difficult for ourselves and others.

Can greed engender anything other than difficulties?

Greed isn't actually the main problem. It's the proclivity for lawlessness. It's why posters here labelled a demand for driving competence as discrimination. Almost every visit here suggests Nigeria will never achieve even a basic level of development.

Goke7:
These folks am sure are also British nationals, but it was clearly written that they are Nigerian nationals. Crime is global, no doubt, but we forget that no matter our immigration status, any negative act will continue to be used against us to deny us opportunities, no matter our status.

The judgement mentioned deportation. Can British nationals be deported?

Goodenoch:
I don't think Nigerians are any more greedy than Brits or anyone else.

On what basis, by what metric. I wouldn't actually gainsay that on an individual basis, but culturally Nigeria is far gone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Corruption_Perceptions_Index - best taken with a pinch of salt, but it's at least indicative.


TV

basilico:
Looks like you don't know irony.
Are you not the one who asked me what was invented from the bible verses and I replied with electromagnetism?

He is just upset because his ill-considered line of enquiry was exposed. I will escalate from parody to burlesque, slapstick to pastiche . He will whine tire. Show me an invention from the pages of the bible - ridiculosity of the highest order. Although I can see everything from iPhones to kettlebells in there .

LordReed. Try not to take yourself too seriously - for your own wellbeing .


TV

DeepSight:
+
The bold excuse is often used by fraudulent bible scholars and pastors to scam people into meanings not intended by scripture and to escape from tight spots in doctrine.

But you could not addressthe actual question .
The are many fraudsters out there. And yes, some call themsolves pastors or MOGs. Some dont .


TV

DeepSight:
This is a stretch.

Possibly to some, and I can see why. It's one of the reasons I almost elided. But not if you grasp the bible thematically and understand types, shadows, pre-cursors and the unfolding work of God's unfolding redemptive plan.

What did the youths who mobbed Elisha mean by the taunt "go up"?


TV

DeepSight:
+
Nothing can change the fact that you asked a particular question of Islam and when the exact same question was returned to you about Christianity you began to cry. Nothing can change that fact. Not an iota about the question was changed except the religion referred to.

How absurd can you be? You yourself ask a question of others and when others ask the same question of you, you claim it is silly.

How ridiculous and dishonest can anyone be? [quote author=DeepSight post=139117573]Kindly reference where I asked for an invention direct from the ee.slamic text

[quote author=DeepSight post=139117573]+
As a poster LordReed ranks 10/10 in quality, intellect, depth, maturity and is actually studious. He has a strong mind that doesn't blink easily and even the strongest thinkers will sweat to convince him of anything that doesnt add up. You are wasting your time trying to demean a character light years ahead of you in every sense and I dont say this lightly.

Demean ke? I just pointed out that he doesn't understand the difference between being parodied and being mischaracterised. Trying to help a broda . You sound like a political hackster by the way

DeepSight:
I know ahead you will think I say this because he agrees with me. Little would you know that we disagree on a great deal.

No. I don;t think it's becuase he agrees with you or for any other reason. He just ain't. "Show me one quality, intellectually deep,.........LordReed" .


TV

DeepSight:
+
I am sincerely interested in this nuance, pray elucidate.

Oga, you are a mocker...do your own study. But, out of the JC inculcated goodness of my heart .

Elisha, was actually quite hairy - 2 Kings 1:8. The references to head may have been in relation to his former master Elijah - 2 Kings 2:3-5. The "go up" taunt probably alludes to ascension\rapture as experience by both. Like I mentioned, it touches on the test of deities and demonstration of Godly power, also experienced by Elijah. 1 Kings 18. The hair thingy could also shadow Samson, whose annoiting was literrally in his locks. Maybe I should grow mine - can't stand locks though .

DeepSight:
+
Don't be silly.

You are getting there .


TV

DeepSight:
+
This is what I don't like. A perfectly legitimate question, you want to wave it off, even saying it is low. For goodness sake how is it low?
Besides you should understand that the overall context is the fact that such harsh acts of barbarism appear to be littered all over the Old Testament. It speaks to an overall character trajectory of the OT God which is appalling. TV01, BASILICO, any explanation?

These were children for goodness sake, and recall that the same God commissions the mass murder of infants, children and women in other verses.

A perfectly legitimate question? Doesn't matter really. One is free to ask.

First of all, they were not children, but that doesn't necessarily change the fact that they suffered summary judgement for their actions.
Secondly, they were mauled, which does not mean they were slaughtered. Thirdly, the "mob" was physically threatening him, and equally pertinent, mocking his Godly authority

Fourthly, because I suspect you are just after a "gotcha", I wont bore you with situational context in Eisha's prophethood, the nuance around calling someone who the bible describes as hirsute "baldy", or the consequent ramifications for mocking that authority.

I love the way you challenged this event based on morés that are only found in JC culture


TV

LordReed:
Dude that was no parody. It was an outright mischaracterisation. I didn't ask for him to show me stuff from the Bible. If it was ill conceived then so was the question it was mirroring and if you can't see that then you have real issues.

Don't be so high-strung. It's unbecoming - especially of a male .

Do you actually understand what it means to parody ? Good thing I actually parodied DeepSight as well. Perhaps he can help you out?

TV - There is nothing that has driven recent scientific and technological advancement in humankind than that which emanated or mimicked the outworking of nations historically rooted in the JC culture.

DeepSight - it's ahistorical and you are unwell to suggest that physics is not taught in Ibadan Grammar School .

LordReed - show me the Pythagoras theorem in the OT

It was designed to mock and show how ridiculous your question was - which you admitted to yourself. - and by definition parodies will "imitate" the original.

Seems you are more comfortable with, and suited, too the kind of crass abuse that normally passes here - noted for future reference .


TV

LordReed:
To say I am disappointed that you mischaracterised my argument is an understatement. basilico asked for inventions based on Islamic study and I followed up by asking for inventions based on Christianity study. How is that me asking show me Pythagoras in OT? I hold you in higher esteem than what you are displaying here man.

I didn't mischaracterise your argument, I parodied it . You have to agree it was a really ill-conceived question, no matter the reason for it.


TV

DeepSight:
+
Believing that the murder of a man cleanses your sins is belief in ritual human sacrifice, simpliciter.

Acts 20:28
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

God took on human form and freely laid down His life to pay the penalty for our sin, deliver us from bondage (slavery even) and offer us eternal life.

Maybe try viewing things through other than you hate filled lens and choose life.


TV

DeepSight:
+
Thats rich coming from a man who is advocating a religion that has ritual human sacrifice as its centre-piece teaching.
Besides, this is moral evolution and different from the matter of innovation we discussed.

Could you evidence the bolded please

Innovation is but a part of the hypothesis. Layered DeepSight? nuanced Deepsight.?? Did I mention strawmanning


TV

DeepSight:
+
What about Rome, Greece, Egypt and China, I keep asking.

Let's discuss whichever one did not practice human sacrifice and granted a full suite of human and civil rights to all.


TV

DeepSight:
+
Small mind. This has nothing to do with victimhood. Stop hating science.

Do something with the fact that you can read.

I did - I read the Bible

The Way, The Truth and The Life!


TV

DeepSight:
+
Again, there are reasons for innovation. Sound, literate scientific ones. Not puerile imagination that religion did it. Worse, only one religion. When everyone knows religion for the most part retarded science.

Please think like a literate man. Do not render your education a waste.

Clue: Necessity is the mother of invention. Old saying.

Yes now! We need to dispose of our waste. One invented underground sewage and flushable loos - Nigerians invented exposed gutters and open defecation

I'm sure there is a study somewhere explaining it all .

Show me a peddler of victimhood and I'll show you an excuse factory.

Come to The Lord and you won;t have to clean your behind with sand


TV