₦airaland Forum

jedisco:
I'm hoping you're not alluding to what I think it is. Yes Nigeria does have its challenges- some of which may be unique bust so does every society. I'm not alluding to anything.

Just calling it as I see it. I have watched - mostly from afar - Nigeria for decades. All nations have challenges. That's what humans are here for - to overcome them. The question is how and when will Nigeria develop to a degree that it's citizens are are able to live decent lives and be mostly content to live there.

jedisco:
Thruout human history, different economies have risen and fallen with many building on the remnants of the last. The coming of the industrial revolution was a huge breakthrough but that also did not arise from a vacuum. For much of human history, alot of economic activity/development was centred in Asia. European dominance is relatively a recent phenomenon - that too is changing.

Fine as far as it goes, but what does it mean? What does it tell us about the when and how for Nigeria?

jedisco:
The only solution to development is not an 'advanced western style liberal democracy' Today, we have examples of advanced societies that have not blindly copied the west- some needed to deviate from some preachings of the west to develop. Like I have said many times, the ultimate yardstick of measuring governments should be their ability to bring good to their people and also foster greater improvement to the human race.

I did'nt say the western model was the only solution. And I did ask what native "development would look like". However the case remains that the west could at least be used as a measure. And, like the wedding adage "something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue", Nigeria can look within or take anything from anywhere and incorporate it. There isn't even the need to invent anything new.

jedisco:
Regarding your last two questions, I'd prefer you first answer those.

You didn't respond to my opener?

The first of the last 2, I don't know? Who can tell. Giving the benefit of hindsight and the knowledge of how we were, in what way is it likely that we would have developed?

I see nothing that gives me the belief that Nigeria can. And so far, it hasn't. It's for whoever believes Nigeria can, to describe how and when.


TV

jedisco:
@the bolded, why do you think that to be the case?

Perception... hmmm... In todays world I'd see that as almost trash. By the way, why is China so low on the list?

Let me start by doing the most annoying but typical of things - answering a question with a question .
"The level of development Nigeria currently experiences, how did it come about?"

But to attempt as brief and succinct a reply as possible, I'll offer this - my opinion.

There are some compounding issue, which I consider second order, like the entrenched tribalism, which is further exacerbated by extreme sectarianism, which would hinder any group of people.

But for me, the main issue is that the development most have in mind is a facsimile of what obtains in the West. And what obtains in the West is due to a combination of it's socio-cultural heritage, and all the things that informed that, particularly in my view the religion.

What is there, that is natal to Nigeria, Africa more widely, or any individual people group within it, that suggests if left to their own devices, over time an advanced western style liberal democracy would emerge?

Asked based on 2 scenarios. The first, if there had never been any western interference, what would development look like? The second, after the fact that there has been, which however viewed, left a modicum of "development", why couldn't it be maintained or built upon in any meaningful way.


TV

LordReed:
What part of what I wrote says show me an invention from the Bible?

Bro you have to be disturbed to be this disingenuous.

- I heard someone advising you to "take the L" on an earlier discussion piece. Now I can see why.

OK, please explain exactly what you meant by this statement (we'll overlook your garbled grammar )

LordReed:
Which inventions came directly from Christianity study?

Maybe I owe you an apology . You may be whingey, emotional and given to hyperbole, but also right regards the point in question. Go on hit me with that "L" and I'll duly reply with an "A"


TeeVee

Lexusgs430:
Ever heard of Shamina Begum or Hilal al-Jedda:...... 😂🤣

Yes I have.
How did the UK Government render her stateless?

justwise:
You sure about that?

I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. Kindly show otherwise.


TV

Goke7:
Apologies, I must have missed that as I didn’t see it

No apologies required. I wanted to clarify the point.

Lexusgs430:
British nationals can of course be deported, if citizenship wasn't a birth right (via nationalisation or other equivalents).....

Citizenship can be revoked, if one sins against his majesty or earns a stint at his majesties pleasure....😉

IFF they are dual nationals and guilty of the most heinous of crimes - read treason or terrorism. As a corollary, the law does not permit the government to leave you stateless.


TV

LordReed:
LoLz. You have even moved to lying now. Quote where I said "Show me an invention from the pages of the bible". It's just clear you weren't parodying, you were outright lying. Bwahahahahahaha!

Bro whatever is disturbing you is not me that caused it, ok. LoLz.

Nothing disturbs TV01 .

Presumably you'll try to wriggle your way out of this with an exact word fallacy

LordReed:
Which inventions came directly from Christianity study?

or this

LordReed:
That is not an invention but even at that, it did not come about by Christianity study.

The position was all about the ethos\culture\milieu that a faith engendered and what advance or progress emanated from that. Think more, whinge less


TV

Goke7:
We are a greedy people; we cry about oppression, but we keep making things difficult for ourselves and others.

Can greed engender anything other than difficulties?

Greed isn't actually the main problem. It's the proclivity for lawlessness. It's why posters here labelled a demand for driving competence as discrimination. Almost every visit here suggests Nigeria will never achieve even a basic level of development.

Goke7:
These folks am sure are also British nationals, but it was clearly written that they are Nigerian nationals. Crime is global, no doubt, but we forget that no matter our immigration status, any negative act will continue to be used against us to deny us opportunities, no matter our status.

The judgement mentioned deportation. Can British nationals be deported?

Goodenoch:
I don't think Nigerians are any more greedy than Brits or anyone else.

On what basis, by what metric. I wouldn't actually gainsay that on an individual basis, but culturally Nigeria is far gone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Corruption_Perceptions_Index - best taken with a pinch of salt, but it's at least indicative.


TV

basilico:
Looks like you don't know irony.
Are you not the one who asked me what was invented from the bible verses and I replied with electromagnetism?

He is just upset because his ill-considered line of enquiry was exposed. I will escalate from parody to burlesque, slapstick to pastiche . He will whine tire. Show me an invention from the pages of the bible - ridiculosity of the highest order. Although I can see everything from iPhones to kettlebells in there .

LordReed. Try not to take yourself too seriously - for your own wellbeing .


TV

DeepSight:
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The bold excuse is often used by fraudulent bible scholars and pastors to scam people into meanings not intended by scripture and to escape from tight spots in doctrine.

But you could not addressthe actual question .
The are many fraudsters out there. And yes, some call themsolves pastors or MOGs. Some dont .


TV

DeepSight:
This is a stretch.

Possibly to some, and I can see why. It's one of the reasons I almost elided. But not if you grasp the bible thematically and understand types, shadows, pre-cursors and the unfolding work of God's unfolding redemptive plan.

What did the youths who mobbed Elisha mean by the taunt "go up"?


TV

DeepSight:
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Nothing can change the fact that you asked a particular question of Islam and when the exact same question was returned to you about Christianity you began to cry. Nothing can change that fact. Not an iota about the question was changed except the religion referred to.

How absurd can you be? You yourself ask a question of others and when others ask the same question of you, you claim it is silly.

How ridiculous and dishonest can anyone be? [quote author=DeepSight post=139117573]Kindly reference where I asked for an invention direct from the ee.slamic text

[quote author=DeepSight post=139117573]+
As a poster LordReed ranks 10/10 in quality, intellect, depth, maturity and is actually studious. He has a strong mind that doesn't blink easily and even the strongest thinkers will sweat to convince him of anything that doesnt add up. You are wasting your time trying to demean a character light years ahead of you in every sense and I dont say this lightly.

Demean ke? I just pointed out that he doesn't understand the difference between being parodied and being mischaracterised. Trying to help a broda . You sound like a political hackster by the way

DeepSight:
I know ahead you will think I say this because he agrees with me. Little would you know that we disagree on a great deal.

No. I don;t think it's becuase he agrees with you or for any other reason. He just ain't. "Show me one quality, intellectually deep,.........LordReed" .


TV

DeepSight:
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I am sincerely interested in this nuance, pray elucidate.

Oga, you are a mocker...do your own study. But, out of the JC inculcated goodness of my heart .

Elisha, was actually quite hairy - 2 Kings 1:8. The references to head may have been in relation to his former master Elijah - 2 Kings 2:3-5. The "go up" taunt probably alludes to ascension\rapture as experience by both. Like I mentioned, it touches on the test of deities and demonstration of Godly power, also experienced by Elijah. 1 Kings 18. The hair thingy could also shadow Samson, whose annoiting was literrally in his locks. Maybe I should grow mine - can't stand locks though .

DeepSight:
+
Don't be silly.

You are getting there .


TV

DeepSight:
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This is what I don't like. A perfectly legitimate question, you want to wave it off, even saying it is low. For goodness sake how is it low?
Besides you should understand that the overall context is the fact that such harsh acts of barbarism appear to be littered all over the Old Testament. It speaks to an overall character trajectory of the OT God which is appalling. TV01, BASILICO, any explanation?

These were children for goodness sake, and recall that the same God commissions the mass murder of infants, children and women in other verses.

A perfectly legitimate question? Doesn't matter really. One is free to ask.

First of all, they were not children, but that doesn't necessarily change the fact that they suffered summary judgement for their actions.
Secondly, they were mauled, which does not mean they were slaughtered. Thirdly, the "mob" was physically threatening him, and equally pertinent, mocking his Godly authority

Fourthly, because I suspect you are just after a "gotcha", I wont bore you with situational context in Eisha's prophethood, the nuance around calling someone who the bible describes as hirsute "baldy", or the consequent ramifications for mocking that authority.

I love the way you challenged this event based on morés that are only found in JC culture


TV

LordReed:
Dude that was no parody. It was an outright mischaracterisation. I didn't ask for him to show me stuff from the Bible. If it was ill conceived then so was the question it was mirroring and if you can't see that then you have real issues.

Don't be so high-strung. It's unbecoming - especially of a male .

Do you actually understand what it means to parody ? Good thing I actually parodied DeepSight as well. Perhaps he can help you out?

TV - There is nothing that has driven recent scientific and technological advancement in humankind than that which emanated or mimicked the outworking of nations historically rooted in the JC culture.

DeepSight - it's ahistorical and you are unwell to suggest that physics is not taught in Ibadan Grammar School .

LordReed - show me the Pythagoras theorem in the OT

It was designed to mock and show how ridiculous your question was - which you admitted to yourself. - and by definition parodies will "imitate" the original.

Seems you are more comfortable with, and suited, too the kind of crass abuse that normally passes here - noted for future reference .


TV

LordReed:
To say I am disappointed that you mischaracterised my argument is an understatement. basilico asked for inventions based on Islamic study and I followed up by asking for inventions based on Christianity study. How is that me asking show me Pythagoras in OT? I hold you in higher esteem than what you are displaying here man.

I didn't mischaracterise your argument, I parodied it . You have to agree it was a really ill-conceived question, no matter the reason for it.


TV

DeepSight:
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Believing that the murder of a man cleanses your sins is belief in ritual human sacrifice, simpliciter.

Acts 20:28
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

God took on human form and freely laid down His life to pay the penalty for our sin, deliver us from bondage (slavery even) and offer us eternal life.

Maybe try viewing things through other than you hate filled lens and choose life.


TV

DeepSight:
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Thats rich coming from a man who is advocating a religion that has ritual human sacrifice as its centre-piece teaching.
Besides, this is moral evolution and different from the matter of innovation we discussed.

Could you evidence the bolded please

Innovation is but a part of the hypothesis. Layered DeepSight? nuanced Deepsight.?? Did I mention strawmanning


TV

DeepSight:
+
What about Rome, Greece, Egypt and China, I keep asking.

Let's discuss whichever one did not practice human sacrifice and granted a full suite of human and civil rights to all.


TV

DeepSight:
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Small mind. This has nothing to do with victimhood. Stop hating science.

Do something with the fact that you can read.

I did - I read the Bible

The Way, The Truth and The Life!


TV

DeepSight:
+
Again, there are reasons for innovation. Sound, literate scientific ones. Not puerile imagination that religion did it. Worse, only one religion. When everyone knows religion for the most part retarded science.

Please think like a literate man. Do not render your education a waste.

Clue: Necessity is the mother of invention. Old saying.

Yes now! We need to dispose of our waste. One invented underground sewage and flushable loos - Nigerians invented exposed gutters and open defecation

I'm sure there is a study somewhere explaining it all .

Show me a peddler of victimhood and I'll show you an excuse factory.

Come to The Lord and you won;t have to clean your behind with sand


TV

basilico:
They don't want to accept that the JC culture brought about rapid development when advances starting taking off.
They are clinging to the idea that development was just organic and happened without any external factor encouraging social cohesion and order

There is a darkness to their worldview that demands that JC culture is at best, bad, or no different in effect to any other - even ee.slam.eek.

Find a nation or empire that managed to develop the attributes I listed. Many were brutal and driven by slavery which they shed tears about at every opportunity.

A major problem for them is that if JC indeed does what it says on the tin, it explains the advance the majorly European nations who adopted it experienced. They would rather explain their own backwardness by saying the TATS and Christians, Europeans (read white people) who engaged in it are the reason the Yoruba did not invent the motor vehicle, the Igbo did not drive discoveries in ophthalmological surgery and the Ijaw were not first into space .

That is why slavery, colonialism, and racism are their perennial fallbacks. They ardently seek it out. No rock left unturned. No nook no cranny unexplored. Perennial victims .

If it wasn't faith, what was it? Why don't SSA or the MAW have it? Ask them when Nigeria will level up or SA will fix up and they begin to stammer . NO time scale is possible. Of course it isn't. Dey dere dey para!


Jesus is Lord


TV

basilico:
Why is it that the most advanced societies were from JC culture. Before the Asian tigers, Japan China caught up?
Don't you dare say slavery or colonization. Switzerland Sweden Norway Denmark etc didn't have colonies .

Hello Sir,

haven't you noticed by now that re-framing is one of DeepSight' signature moves.

TV - There is nothing that has driven recent scientific and technological advancement in humankind than that which emanated or mimicked the outworking of nations historically rooted in the JC culture.

DeepSight - it's ahistorical and you are unwell to suggest that physics is not taught in Ibadan Grammar School .

LordReed - show me the Pythagoras theorem in the OT

Laugh 0!


TV

Ey yah! I was raised to look kindly upon the underprivileged - Deep, na you be dis .
How is it that both you and your sidekick Lord Reed are unable to navigate through nuance in conversation or any type of layered discussion.

Like I said, I was raised....so let me try again.
The point is not about individual inventions or necessarily where they emanate from. Here is the hypothesis. Danke!

^{"Only the JC ethos creates the sustainable culture which can deliver full-suite human rights, individual freedoms and civil liberties. Which at once guarantee individual pursuits and free association, forming the basis for open trade and capital markets, which drive, innovation, research, scientific inquiry and technological advancement, as well as progressive social welfare programs".}

Likewise your mucker LordReed thought the discussion was about locating inventions in the pages of religious text. Ah, ah. How could one both think and engage that premise? I shudder to think. Why do I bother? Oh yes, I was raised.... .

You ask for a breakdown. Which I not only gave unprompted in my very first reply to your accusation that the bible advocates for slavery, I also asked you a question. One question. Which you have studiously avoided. I further wrote on the law and it's abolition\fulfilment. Again I asked you 2 questions, both of which you obfuscated over, yet failed to answer.

The conversation is only stymied by design - your design. So, for you and anyone else who cares to read, I will start with slavery in the NT and ask you questions. In tandem, I will also continue to demonstrate the superiority of a JC based culture. Some of us are capable of nuanced, layered, correctly premised and multi-faceted discussion

I have already detailed your MO, so no expectations.


TeeVee

DeepSight:
+
Worthless.

A complete non starter.

If you wish to make a proper effort start with these -

1. Address the list of inventions I provided (a hundred) from non Judeo Christian backgrounds.

2. Address the verses in the bible which enjoin the murder of witches and slavery and properly break them down as to why they do not say what they obviously say.

Anything beyond these is just noise.

It will eternally be ridiculous for anyone to claim that only Judeo Christian backgrounds allowed for inventive thought. I mean this is not just ahistorical, it is dim and half witted.

DeepSight:
+
Claiming that inventions only exist in cultures with a Judeo Christian background is as bad a case as I have ever come across.

Have you no depth...is your moniker meant to be entirely ironic !

You have a very limited and ultimately futile toolkit, consisting of,
1. Copy & Paste
2. Avoiding questions
3. Strawmanning positions
4. Slurs
5. Tantrums

I see no depth, no artfully constructed points, no comprehensive analysis. I'll try again, because I like your discomfort !

"Only the JC ethos creates the sustainable culture which can deliver full-suite human rights, individual freedoms and civil liberties. Which at once guarantee individual pursuits and free association, forming the basis for open trade and capital markets, which drive, innovation, research, scientific inquiry and technological advancement, as well as progressive social welfare programs".

It did so progressively and as long as it sticks, progress will continue. Nothing else can or has sustainably delivered all of that. At best mimic it to a degree. Where are the nations and empires you mentioned? Why are non-JC nations today mostly lagging - even to mimic .

It's why Nigeria is imploding, Somalia is war-torn and South-Africa is spiralling. The "inherency" required to inculcate the necessary ethos does not exist. Chaos and disarray is the natural state - and too be honest, you like it

ee.slam by it's very nature cannot of itself give rise to meaningful or sustainable innovation. It's contrary to it's design and intent. The golden age you speak of was history written by the victors.

I have noted repeatedly. ee,slam will claim anything in extant, in development or that lands after it conquers a people or territory. Long-term it will be degraded and ee.slam will revert to type - 7th century Arabia. The link you shared, showed that in detail. Did you read it?

The conquered Persian mathematician who forcefully converts to ee.slam will have his invention labelled ee.slam.eek, and himself a moose.slim. Labelled moose.slim does not mean natal to ee.slam. Did moose.slims settle and build Cordoba or Baghdad or Cairo?

Where are your gods .


TV

DeepSight:
+
Yawn.

nothing can remove it.

Beams
Nothing can add it .

If The Son sets you free, you are free indeed.


TV

LordReed:
The Japanaese did not need your Christian whatever to end slavery 500300 years before Christians had to kill themselves to achieve it. Pay attention.

Christianity first moved to abolish slavery in the 11th century.

Slavery was finally abolished in Japan under Western influence as it modernised. Formally in the 19th century and fully suppressed in the 20th.

There is nothing outside the JC truth as a basis for sustained, enduring and flourishing nations. Second best is to mimic it as Japan has done - aided somewhat by it's ethnic and cultural homogeneity. Now starting to fail.

Outside that nada, nothing, nowhere - as demonstrated by Nigeria' abject failure and South Africa's spiralling backwards after one generation of emancipation from apartheid. Even the post-Christian West is starting to fall apart.

No Christ, no nation, no nothing. His kingdom come.

Keep up .


TV

DeepSight:
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Repeating yourself a thousand times will not remove the clear slavery endorsing verses from the Bible.

I don't need to shout. It's written there in black and white and nothing can remove it.

It's called consistency boyo - try it .

The fact that slavery is mentioned, doesn't mean that slavery is endorsed. In fact the Bible is the most anti-slavery book every - the whole message is about setting human beings free.

I appreciate your need to see slavery in order too underpin your worldview. Evidenced by your refusal to answer any questions or admit your own incorrect biblical exegesis from the very first time I posted a response to this.
https://www.nairaland.com/4508641/american-politics-thread-trump-47th/5556#137573719


Come, why did the gods of your people, of iron, of thunder of smallpox, not deliver you from slavery and help you invent better gadgets .

He who The Son sets free is free indeed .


TV

DeepSight:
+
I also added to my post above clarifying that expansion is actually one of the catalysts of development -


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Nonetheless I am not sure it is fair for you to use ISIS as the benchmark.
You would make no mention of the Greater Israel Project would you, notwithstanding that its map is on the uniforms of the IDF and covers parts of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Saudi Arabia?

I like your thinking here

Expansion is a catalyst for development. The Israeli "Greater Israel" project covers parts of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia.

Given the fact that the said countries lack the "inherency" to deliver any meaningful development, Israel - who have a proven track record in this regard, will almost certainly do so.

Ergo, let Israel have the land - all of it. Bringing flourishing, prosperity and 21st century liberal democratic ideals to more arabs and the region as a whole.

I knew you'd wake up.

A round of weak beer for that man


TV

LordReed:
LoLz. The Quran is not a science journal either but you want us to present you inventions that came directly from Islamic study.

Anyway, thanks for conceding that no invention came from Christianity study.

I'll afford you the benefit f the doubt this last time. Please read carefully and slowly - several times if required .

No one claimed inventions should spontaneously arise out of what ever anyone considers to be holy text.

The position is that it is the truth of the JC culture that creates the milieu as described in my last post - which has been hidden. To paraphrase below,.

"Only the JC ethos creates the sustainable culture which can deliver full-suite human rights, individual freedoms and civil liberties. Which at once guarantee individual pursuits and free association, formsng the basis for open trade, guilds and capital markets, which drive, innovation, research, scientific inquiry and technological advancement, as well as progressive social welfare programs".

Likewise your mate DeepSight continues to insist that Christianity advocates slavery, and continues to argue that against himself, when the position is the Christian scriptures do not preach slavery. Not that some people who claim to be Christians have not used the bible to justify slavery - no one ever claimed that.

Pay attention sir .


TV