₦airaland Forum

MuttleyLaff:
I doubt this comment though:
"...therefore with enough evolutionary advantage, primate with two leg (human ) will walk without having the drive to do so ."
but OK, I hear you

if you are not rejecting evolution, then you shouild subscribe to this possibility. Anyway it is an assumption at the moment.. It is fact that the human hips were made for walking upright.
So hypothetically, it will get to a stage that whenever baby stretch up to get something that is too high for them to reach by crawling, they will quickly realize that there is benefit to stand upright.

Bumb

MuttleyLaff:
I have already said that the flaw is that you hurriedly, carelessly & in a weak way,
tried to explain away, why human & other primate babies have to learn to walk, slower than other animals

i do not have to explain it in details since that will stair us away from the main discussion, I only wanted to highlight some needed details. But anyway thanks for your observation.

MuttleyLaff:
vaxx this is a disappointed, done too hurriedly, carelessly
and feeble explanation to why human and other primate babies have to learn to walk slower than other animals

I accept without demur that compassion, empathy, sympathy, consideration and sensitiveness are innate, that they don't disappear when not in used, because they are part of one's make up.

I equally agree without demur that innate behaviour can be turned on by itself


You guys both are familiar with the story of the traveler who fell into the dastardly hands of robbers and got stripped of clothing, beaten and left half dead alongside the road.

Notice, the pastor or the Daddy G O or Bishop (i.e. the priest), the choirmaster or usher or church worker (i.e. the Levite) switched off the "compassion, empathy, sympathy, consideration and/or sensitiveness" innate behaviour button

The priest was going down the road the man was left half dead, but when the priest saw the man, he passed by on the other side.
So too, the Levite, when the Levite came to same spot and saw him, he passed by him, by crossing on the other side of the road.

I believe it goes deeper and beyond emotions.
You either have it or you dont

Just in that popular narrative, some just dont have it anymore in them, to switch it on.
Some have become desensitized, some have misjudged priorities.
Some are selective to whom and/or when to show or give "compassion, empathy, sympathy, consideration and/or sensitiveness" to
Some dont know when its right to show or give "compassion, empathy, sympathy, consideration and/or sensitiveness"

I will like to see my flaws in that sir? The bolded.

budaatum:
Seriously?

Empathy is a broad concept that refers to the cognitive and emotional reactions of an individual to the observed experiences of another.
The Psychology of Emotional and Cognitive Empathy

When empathy relies on emotions alone, it functions as the equivalent of just kicking a ball, or a baby swimming.

Empathy is a combination of the both, genetic and enviroment.

budaatum:
Would you agree that 'evolution', is a form of learning?

No I disagree , evolution is a proces where living creatures who have the genes to survive, will survive for long enough to get children. Example , the fastest gazelle will outrun the lions and this gazelles offsping will also be fast.. There is nothing about learning.
Animals can learn to survive in spite of their genes.
The gazelle born less fast might still survive, by learning that this smell means that there are lions nearby and thereby start running before the other gazelles. Therefore evolution is beingbborn with legs that are better suited for running.meaning having an innate ability to run.learning on the orther hand is studying and practicing running tecniques that makes you as good as those born with running legs.

if empathy were useless in an organisms environment, would it necessarily be empathic, which would be the case if it were innate?

Empathy were never useless, it is the key that unluck all other potentials.

Like birds flying without prior education, as mentioned in link. However, I am saying that empathy, is way more complex than that, and birds flying still requires some learning, even if it were only the flapping of wings to remain steady in a nest. And one would have to ignore the possible learning from watching mother bird flying!

i gave a case of a spider who have perfected is evolutionary advantage to weave its web without learning, a flying bird already has an innate to fly, the learning here only to came to perfect it. At a long run . Evolution may perfect the skills itself. There is this kid i called my friend , he is very good in visual art who never trained or schooled , he is just 9 years old. I payed him for drawing me. Though not perfect but skilful. And with enough try and error , he will perfect the skills

A more suitable example would be the ability of spiders to spin webs and catch food. This may be an evolutionary adaptation, but it can safely be assumed that some web spinning spiders may not know how or where to spin webs. And since we can't actually observe spiders that need to spin webs but don't, we would naturally assume an innate ability in spiders to spin webs. But we do so by disregarding very many more spiders that should spin webs but didn't, and died.

Yes we can assume that, and of course not all spider spine web, but there is this unique innate that is build in them , ability to jump from place to place using a silk tether that assures that they won't lose their place even if they happen to fall when working on a weave net.

MuttleyLaff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdXa1XFl0es


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO7OvqDFMCs

I wonder when and/or where the compassion was learned from,
wonder how the dog(s) had the capacity in the first place
and what's or who's responsible that heavily invested in the dog(s) developing this amazing caring ability

i wish i can give you more than a hundered likes for this video.

budaatum:
I've dealt with this 'trick' explaining

A "capacity" to do a thing is not the ability to do that thing. A baby has the genetic capacity to walk, one might say. One may look at the baby moving its legs while laid on its back and say "reflex". One could claim that capacity is innate. But baby still has to develop the ability before it takes it's first independent step, and parents invest heavily in ensuring it fulfils the capacity which may be genetic, and innate but still has to be learnt.

In a developmental psychology class, your thought might not be consider . Why? Because they are number of factors involved in walking partanning to primate. Firstly, while agreeing walking is a learned behaviour to some primate., there is probably that some innate drive the learning. This the way the human brain is wired. Most other primate are able to walk, without any learning, within a couple of hours of birth. Foal will walk without any needed asistance. Primates, who are born comparatively feeble and for whom walking is a much more complex skill (two legs hard, four legs easy) take a lot longer, therefore with enough evolutionary advantage, primate with two leg (human ) will walk without having the drive to do so .

Innate don't disappear when not in used, it is part of what make you. In fact researchers has proven innate behaviour can be turn on by itself .the researchers found that the innate behavior is initiated by a "command" hormone that orchestrates activities in discrete groups of peptide neurons in the brain...

Do note that the acquisition of intelligence is not the only product of learning. There are many who have been taught, and have learnt, to be unintelligent!

This might be goal post shifting

joseph1013:
It's ironic, but competition has driven cooperation the most in our history.

Those who sought to make us cooperate at all costs (read communism) dragged the world to its knees.

At its simplest level, a market system would only exist if you agree with what I have to sell, and I agree with what you are willing to buy it. What's more cooperative than that?

It's also instructive that UBI would only have been possible because free market ensures prosperity to the extent that there is so much available that politicians now feel this should be used to subsidize the living conditions of others.

Also, when people say capitalist countries are distorted, the question is, compared to who? Singapore, compared to Nigeria? Hong Kong compared to Bolivia? For all the slacks the United States gets for being capitalistic, it attracts the highest number of migrants across the globe. Even Saudi is seeing the merits of diversification. Stubborn countries like China and India dwelt so long in communism/socialism and only began to grow in wealth when they started freeing up their economy. Chairman Mao killed over 40 million people because he forced cooperation on his people.

Lastly, capitalism is inherently human. People want to profit from their efforts and would not want to be forced to share their proceeds against their will.

What I find interesting about this "capitalism is greed and opportunistic" debate is that the most capitalist countries are the biggest financial donors the world has ever seen.

So much for greed, right?

so in short, Capitalism would be "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

It seems rather successful, considering the profit those private owners are raking in. That is until we take into account the private owners who are not successful. By adding the numbers, the overall profit cancels out to zero. So capitalism is failing. It can never succeed since "there's no such thing as free lunch."


Yes some capitalist country happens to be the biggest donor and richer but the 80 percent of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of the 2 percent population of the citizens.

Why on earth should we value system that promotes money over human lives, and the nature with resources we depend on not just to make advances, but to survive. It puts money over truth and love, causing nothing virtually nothing left to be relied on.

That is about 1 million naira......The money is not a big deal for the pastor.

budaatum:
By observing it in other animals. Realising it furthers their interest. They might be in love, especially with their offspring.

Could be anyway. Same as its anyway humans too learn it I suppose. Some humans have empathy beaten into them!

They are some knowledge that are genetically built In animal, for example no ones teaches a spider how to weave its web. It is an instinct quality, just like reflexes that is built on baby animal.sucking is inbuilt on them, they never learned it.

Borrowing from your links on the type of reflexes.

The rooting reflex goes "whenever anything touches your face, turn your head toward it."

The sucking reflex goes "whenever anything touches the inside of your mouth, suck on it."

With those two reflexes, the mother can get the baby to nurse by putting her nipple in or near the baby's mouth. If you touch the baby animal's mouth with your fingers or a bottle, the reflexes will make the baby animal suck on the fingers or bottle, too.


Denying that human do not have empathy inbuilt in them is like rejecting the functionality of the gene. And trying to only limit empathy to learning is like position it to the level of intelligence. Your man "'Daniel Goleman"" said empathy has nothing to do with intelligence.

Human/animal by nature has genetic capacity for empathy to develops as we grow. However, it is also a characteristic that can be and is learned thru our environment. Therefore empathy is both genetic and environmental.

Chechem:
I have been worried sick concerning the above subject. Please house, whoever that has an idea should share, if one can get a lecturing job with a Masters Degree gotten from NOUN. Thanks

is noun not part of accredited running university in Nigeria?

budaatum:
Hmm! Wiggle!

pardon.....

budaatum:
". Throw vaxx's able to swim baby in the river and I honestly believe it will drown.

.

Babies (human infants) have a net positive buoyancy. That means if you throw them in the water, they will tend to float instead of sink. And likewise Baby also don't have an innate fear of water. That fear is learned. So all things being equal, they will splash around and find themselves moving. Remember that infants spent almost 9 months floating in water/blood, so it's not a new experience

Ioannes:
I understand your point. I am looking at the bigger picture here. If Ghana becomes as developed as the United States today what do you think will happen? The Yorubas have a saying that a single rich man in the midst of a hundred poor people is also a poor person.

How long do you think it will take Nigerians and other Africans to migrate en masse to Ghana and saturate it with their own culture of lack of self discipline that has made it difficult for them to develop their own countries. Keep in mind that we are on the same continent so going there will be easy as pie.

Already they are about 5 million Nigerians in Ghana (the figure is unofficial)and I practically think it is not healthy for Ghana struggling economy. There shouild be check and balance.

America become the most powerful nations today because it has one of the most strictest visa requirement, you can't just penetrate America even if you are from negbouring Mexico.

America visa requirement is designed only to accommodate healthy citizens of similar country such as Canada and western Europe. They are aware of potential threat citizens of under developed nation in their soil if given the freedom.


It will amaze you north Korea citizens can not easily penetrate South Korea but little far Japan has no difficulty entering South Korea.

budaatum:
Please see reflexes in newborns, perhaps it would put us on the same wavelength.

read on central pattern generator as well.

budaatum:
A car, does not "have the ability to drive", vaxx!

A car thus....even artificial intelligence car had perfected the skills without the need of an operator.


A computerised car that can drive on its own is available even without operator

budaatum:
The only 'reason' you gave was 'reflex', which wiki said was not swimming. If you remove the adult support from the baby, will it swim, vaxx?

If we can't agree on the definition of "swimming" we are not going to get anywhere with empathy, innate, compassion etc. Focus, and let us learn, please.

if you are interested in the definition then., tell us what is the essential of swimming.

The adult position is to perfect the motion and not make the baby swim originally. The ability is already there. What is left is perfection.

IT IS JUST LIKE HAVING A CAR BUT STILL NEED AN OPERATOR TO Make it drive. Already the car has the ability to drive but will not drive unless it is operated.


The work of the operator is to set up the inbuilt motion of the car to drive. There is already an ability for the car to drive already.

Ioannes:
No African country can really make great strides unless it carries the rest along. Whether we like it or not our destinies in Africa are joined irrevocably. So I see as silly all these rivalry among countries like Nigeria, South Africa, Ghana, Kenya etc.

Insulting Kenyans and Ghanaians that they are black is ludicrous. Apart from the fact that black is absolutely beautiful, that is the identity of the African.

And other African countries insulting Nigeria with her numerous challenges is very myopic. Nigeria is best suited to lead Africa out if the woods to become a Continent that people see as Paradise because of her huge human resources.

Until Africans see themselves as brothers, we will keep roaming in the wilderness.

i do not quite agree with you, if we must develop at least in a western standard, i mean if Africa will wish to occupy her position among the develop nations of the world. We must offend ourselves.

We have been to kind to each other for so long , it is only when we offend each other that we can canalized that offense to move mountain.

This is how Europe as a continent succeed. UK just voted out of Europe. Switzerland has never been part ,Germany use to dominate EU.All this are changing...


This is how China succeeded in taking out about 800 million of her citizens out of poverty. They can't depend on other fellow Asians.

budaatum:
"Reflexes that make it look like they are", specifically implies they are not swimming, at least within context.

Vaxx, I've told you about this thing of yours you do when we've discussed before and would not be doing it again here. The wiki page has a clear position on infant swimming!

I am not even debating you. I am discussing here . I want you not to focus too much on the definition but the applicability because the definition are always limited in scope.


I already imply what it means by swimming and I have gave reasons why baby do.

I raised a question what is the essentials of swimming?

budaatum:
Did you "Research on this phenomenon" before you posted about it?

Infant swimming is the phenomenon of human babies and toddlers reflexively moving themselves through water and changing their rate of respiration and heart rate in response to being submerged. The slowing of heart rate and breathing is called the bradycardic response. It is not true that babies are born with the ability to swim, ][b]though they have reflexes that make it look like they ar[/b]e[/ Babies are not old enough to hold their breath intentionally or strong enough to keep their head above water.

Budaatum ...the bolded...

budaatum:
Please provide a single quote from the page that makes you say the above!

you aready had it in your quote. Maybe i will bold it.

Martinez19:
Of course. Being benched doesn't mean he has lost the ability because the player still has two legs. Being benched is different from losing two legs. The benched player with two legs can be shown to have the ability to play if you bring him into the game where as it's not possible for the person that has no leg.

So can I further argue loosing two legs does not make footballer less able as well. Assuming we already perfected our technology enhancing mechanism . Where something like cable blade can replace the loosing leg.

The main theme of football by then will be limited to the knowledge and not the leg.

They are many cars that can be drive by handicap today, that does not make them less driver. Even computer are used by blind this days and yet it does not make them computer illiterates.

Your skills is your skills, nothing is taking it away unless the means to perfect the skills.

budaatum:
So, it has to be taught, and learnt? Do you understand where learning lies in the definition of 'innate'?

Reflex is not a skill, vaxx, in this instance, at least!

reflex is an inbuilt mechanism on the baby, the teaching only come in for the baby to perfect her motion.

There are study to prove baby already had this mechanism inbuilt. Wikipedia page you reference support it.

Martinez19:
Clarify your second paragraph.

I mean when football club like arsenal bench a footballer on the pitch due to injury, it still does not literarilly translate to losing of its ability. He only lost capacity to play and not possession or falculty.

budaatum:
And not "swimming"?

swimming is the ability of using legs and arms to move the body thru water..

Reflex is anything that is determined or reproduced by the most essential features of something else.

In regards to swimming, what do you think are the essential features of swimming? And i will tell you baby reflex it.

Martinez19:
I would have to side budaatum on this one. If I know how to play football better than Messi but I have no legs, do I have the ability to play football? Ability to perform a certain task means you have all it takes to successfully execute the task.

ability to perform a certain task means you posses the required standard to accomplish a goal.

A skillfull footballer who is on the bench due to injury does not its possession, falculty or the skills, he just lost the means to play football.

budaatum:
You said babies have an innate ability to swim. Wiki says they have reflexes that make it seem they swim but they can't! So how are you and wiki saying the same thing vaxx?

the reflexes is the innate ability.

budaatum:
This is what is said about infant swimming:

It is extremely important to note that while babies can imitate swimming motions and reflexes, they are not yet physically capable of swimming.

We all know that if you don't learn to swim and jump into the river you would just drink it dry since it would appear you have completely lost the supposed innate ability to swim but which you claim "cannot be lost as it is part of you".

This is where learnning take its position. Baby ofcourse we need an adult guide to perfect this skills.


The baby in its own posses an inbuilt reflex That allow this but adult aid is needed to accomplish it.

budaatum:
But what you are trying to "show or prove" is not true, at least going by the evidence as posted! Or please provide evidence for the claim that babies swim.

read again Buddha....nothing i posted here disagree with Wikipedia references you forward.

budaatum:
I understand. The definition of innate states "determined by factors present in an individual from birth". I carefully referred to this "ability", when I wrote that it is "no different to the 'ability' of an ape or a dog or a cat to be empathic, and different to a stone, which I assume is incapable".

There's a difference between having the ability to do a thing and actually being able to do the thing. Many people can list abilities they have had that seem to have been present in them from birth but which they have no more because they failed to develop them. If the factors are not there for the development of the ability the ability remains undeveloped and eventually nonexistent.

innate ability cannot be lost as it is part Of you ...

Yes it thus evolve but is does not disappear

Ioannes:
I'm sure a comprehensive research will reveal that most Africans are really related after all. Thanks for clarifying.

not just Africans,and even the white and all other creature are genetically related.