₦airaland Forum

okeyxyz: Well that's the job of a world leader such as the American president, to measure when to "cower" and when to show strength. You on the one hand see only a man who is being persecuted for exercising his freedom of speech, while others in the position of Obama face a different reality, they know that America has huge interests(investments, relationships, people, security) in the Arab/moslem worlds. Not to mention that they face competition from other world powers(Russia, China) for these same "privileged" interests. While "mr director" feels that he himself has a guarantee of freedom & security when he embarks to "insult" America's friends & benefactors, people in offices as presidents, prime ministers, secretaries of state, and ambassadors face a different reality and understand that encouraging this sort of behaviour could unravel this delicate relationship that's cost years, money and co-operation and military to build. Why would america and europe, even china risk the fragile economic recovery by fueling outrage and instability in the arab/moslem world just so that "mr director" who dosen't give a f##k about anyone else but himself can sing "YEAH!!! I AM AN AMERICAN, F##K EVERYBODY ELSE, I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT"??.

You see mr @wiegraf, Only a wise man knows that freedom & peace is not divinely endowed, nor is it guaranteed even by right. It has to be negotiated and protected which I believe that's what Obama's "cowering" is hoping to achieve. The community is bigger than the individual.

Incredible...
There are things that are more important than money..
Actually, there are many things more important than money..
One of these would be freedom

Now mr d is obviously not the most honest person around (or smartest, seemingly), but he fled from persecution being a coptic christian in egypt. Despite my limited travels, I've personally met other families with similar stories, always fleeing from the islamic world, so you can imagine the amount of people fleeing, or hoping to, from that region due to intolerance. You say it's more than the individual and about the community. Interesting...

Chop a woman's nose of because she was suspected of cheating? Kill the woman with the temerity to ask for a divorce? Hang the homosexuals? Stone the adulterers? Since money seems to be your issue, impose a tax on a group of a people simply because they don't share your faith? Intolerate incessantly, just because. Guess what, we can't criticize islam. To top this off, the sheer hypocrisy...

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2010/09/defecation-torah-new-testament

http://cifwatch.com/2012/09/23/jewish-reaction-to-thousands-of-antisemitic-arab-cartoons-no-riots-no-injuries-no-deaths/

Staggering.
You think a country which prides itself on being based on a foundation of freedom, founded largely by people fleeing religious persecution no less, should go against its principles because of financial gain? You think they should cave in because of threats, because they are being bullied? Do note also, if money is your issue, there might be a reason why very few islamic nations that do not have oil aren't doing so well by modern standards.

Can you pls explain to me how freedom does not effect the community?


Another thing that baffles me about apologetics, you think your allowing them to do as they please actually helps? Many of the people in the islamic world, many even active muslims, cringe when they come across apologetics. I am from a muslim family, and let me tell you that intolerance is very real. If the west had made it very clear that several of the travails I had to go through were simply unacceptable, I, and many others, would have been aided greatly. Your apologetics help no one

And yes you are apologizing, for obama's actions and by extension the islamic world

okeyxyz: Meaning..??

I'm paranoid?

But perhaps I have a case. Is it unusual for these sort of cases to be followed up?

Make no mistake about it okey, obama won't be complaining about this. He will also not make it clear to the muslim world that mr director is being tried for something other than the 'blasphemy' in his film.
They seem to have lists and are rather effective with them, I'll give them that. Osama, various terrorists? check. Assange, the kid who sold them out and now mr director? Check... Still working on assange though


The nature of the 'crime' committed by this man (ie, the film) did not deserve even acknowledgment from the potus. Cowering obama is cowering

Read your link (well, skimmed it, but I got the gist)
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/philosophy-theology/the-quranic-argument-for-gods-existence/

Interesting, but nothing new here. I do like that he accepts that causality does not always work intuitively, some people in the religion section seem to be unable to grasp that. Some of his premises are right, some not so much. Most of his final conclusions I think are wrong. His trying to justify first cause as being sentient kills it. There's no reason to do so, in fact it complicates matters. Who made our complex sentient first cause? No one? Then why can't the same apply to nature? Wouldn't it make more sense if whatever may have existed forever, or be uncaused, is a simple thing, like energy? Or do you think something as complex as god just sprung out of nowhere? Occam's razor would go with the basics. Basically you can replace wherever he puts 'god' with 'nature'.
Besides, even if there were a sentient first cause with some supernatural ability, why Islam? Why any religion for that matter? They all seem to be distinctly man made. Either ways, lots of other options (and frankly, many make a lot more sense objectively and are a lot more tolerant, but that might be my subjective pref).
There's little objective evidence there, the logic makes too many assumptions, many of which are unfalsifiable.

Regards.

I don't think you understand how it works, it would apply to everyone except muslims.

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2010/09/defecation-torah-new-testament

http://cifwatch.com/2012/09/23/jewish-reaction-to-thousands-of-antisemitic-arab-cartoons-no-riots-no-injuries-no-deaths/


Edit: oops, wrong link

Rossikk: Look, the ancient religions were right. God is unfathomable. We can use intermediaries - deities, spirits, departed ancestors, to navigate the world of celestial power. It is christianity and islam that came with their CLAIMS of who God is, claims of having spoken to God, even claims of God sending his ''only son'' down to them. Just them. Nobody else. WE then swallowed their story, and today find ourselves here wondering ''if there is God''. Nonsense. Of course there is God, but as our African forbears said thousands of years ago, HE IS TOO MIGHTY TO BE UNDERSTOOD. The bible and koran are latter-day blasphemous documents that claim to contain the acts, thoughts and instructions of the Almighty.

What's this about?

Overarching themes here, I'll try to be clear.
Note first, just in case some things might seem out of place, I am an atheist. I do not accept the concept of a god, arguing from a point which already accepts there is a god can be senseless depending on the context, but seems we have been careful about that. Just wanted to point that out.

tbaba1234: Well, if you asked a muslim 500 years ago, he will give you the same quotes if he knew them... you will not find any that supports it...

I have already accepted that there are lines in the koran/hadiths that speak poorly of slavery, or try regulate and maybe humanize it (if that is even possible).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery
Wiki, but well sourced. Just like you've confirmed, here's a particularly salient line:
"The Qur'an (the holy book) and the hadith (the sayings of Muhammad) see slavery as an exceptional condition that can be entered into under certain limited circumstances"
That is all that is needed. Legitimizing it in any way, people are going to fly with it. While imagining how people behave under religious influences, imagine what the world would be like if Jesus himself actually went to war... There you go.

tbaba1234: When Islam came to Arabia, slavery already existed... Islam created a system that allowed for the integration of slaves by marriage, raising their status and their emancipation.... So while slavery still persisted, the status of slaves in the muslim lands was a lot different... They ate what their masters ate and dressed how he dressed...

Note the bold, so the laws were drafted for that period? Yet they are supposed hold sway for eternity? I will accept that perhaps their laws were progressive and humane for its time, but my point is its time was 1400 years ago! The world has since long ago moved on, Islam still insists on holding some 'truths', truths forged in a time when slavery the norm. Say you were going travel cross country would you load cart, straddle your horses and take off? You realize we've built bicycles, cars, trains, planes etc? What was appropriate for that time need not be applicable for this day and age, in fact, it very likely wouldn't be. (Privately, my view is the islamic world has to learn how to let go else please, stay very far away from the rest of us. America and their busybody, love for oil etc, its disgusting and it harms the rest of that value freedom over everything else)

tbaba1234: Do you think Islam as a faith would have survived if it didn't engage in wars? We would have been annihilated.... It is human nature.... The way of the world at the time Islam came was that of conquests by empires and nations... Everyone was seeking more land.... It was either conquer or be conquered

What are you talking about, lots of faiths survived their nascent stages without going to war. Even a faith that is an offshoot of the 'tolerant' islam, bahai, started of without having to resort to wars.
If you're complaining about persecution what do you think Jews should be doing? Islam hasn't been particularly tolerant of established religions either
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Muslim_places_of_worship_into_mosques

Actually, I wonder why one would worship a god that demands you go to war for him? For whatever reason. Couldn't it handle its problems on its own?

tbaba1234: Besides, the muslims only engaged in warfare when they became a state not before.... The survival of any nation state in that age was dependent on its security and military strength. Islam is a practical faith. The prophet was a religious leader as well as the head of a new civilisation.

You're are now indicating that Islam is a political system. Religion and politics, that's another lenghty debate. They should never, ever, ever, ever be mixed. I'm sure you disagree, I'll leave it at that for now.

tbaba1234: First of all, from traditional narrations, the prophet consummated his marriage at the age of 9 after she began her menses .... None of the worst enemies of the prophet at his time saw this as abnormal, this argument is a recent one. There are only historical records that suggest that she was much older. Whatever the case, emulating the prophet must be put in its proper context, we can not look at history with a 21st century lens. That is why you can not say something that was perfectly normal thousands of years ago is wrong... Someone saying the prophet 'did so' is contravening Islam because first of all, he goes against the laws of the land, which we are supposed to abide by and that is actually disobeying the prophet and Allah. So you can't follow the prophet and disobey him at the same time. It is not as if it is a tenet of Islam.

The Quran are the words of Allah; so yes it is infallible because God is infallible. The prophet gives us the model to follow the words of Allah to the best of our ability. The prophet's examples help us keep things in the proper perspective.

Humans can twist anything to suit whatever agenda, as long as we are honest with the Quran and follow the ways of the prophet. we'd be fine.

Again, if you accept the bolded, the fact that he married a minor is all that is needed to justify others doing it. Islam makes it much more easier to be immoral than other religious systems. That is a flaw you need to address, but you cling on to believing the koran/hadiths (some)/muhammed are infallible. Christians at least double talk and wriggle away some free room to do away with its disgusting bits.

tbaba1234: What defines what is injurious to people's lives... To nazi germany, the jews were dangerous and not to be trusted and had to be eliminated.... Social pressures will paint what is right or wrong in our own eyes... Homosexuality was seen as an abormination in the west a few years ago, now people think it is fine, because of social conditioning...

To clarify, I said injurious to life, not human life. Nazi germany's regarded jews as morally evil, and were in fact doing some moral good by wiping them off the map. As far as normal evil is concerned, Jews are life, they were killed against their wills, in spectacularly bad ways sometimes, that's evil, simple. Measure the suffering, to all life, that is it. Consider mitigating good as well. Sentience is not needed to measure this.

tbaba1234: You didn't ask to be born does not negate the fact that you are here.... None of the choices are yours... You are grateful for what you have and do not grieve too much for what has been taken away... That is the mentality of the muslim.

I am not a muslim, I am not gratefull. I did not ask to be here, this universe is a hell hole (if hell exists, you get the point). Similarly to when someone does something 'good' for me when I didn't ask them to then expect a thank you. Who sent you? How do you know I actually needed that? Sheesh.
"None of the choices are yours" this line leads us into free will...

tbaba1234: Humans have free choice not free will... You can make a choice but it doesn't mean it will happen... Will indicates some kind of power which we really do not possess. Only Allah has free will...

The attributes of Allah are clearly outlined in the Quran; We look at God in respect to all of his attributes...

When a muslim says God is Omnipotent for instance, it means something different than when a christian says that... God's Omnipotence is looked at with respect to all his other attributes as well, therefore God does things that are in line with his attributes otherwise he is no longer God. It refers simply to the ability to actualise an affair.

When a muslim says God is Omnipresent or omniscient... It means that God is fully aware of everything that is going on at every point in time and he is in full control of it... It does not indicate some kind of physical presence... All he needs to say is 'Be' and it is.

There is nothing comparable to Him....

This translates to at the very least sabotage, tampering or entrapment. Directly though I would say you have just stated god sends people to hell for his own actions. He punishes them for his mistakes.

tbaba1234: You can not arrive at the conclusion for God without some reflection and study... I am convinced that the Quran is the words of God and i have threads to show just how awesome and how it can not be replicated by human effort...

You can also reach the conclusion for God simply by rational deduction...

You can read this at your free time

the quranic-argument-for-gods-existence

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/philosophy-theology/the-quranic-argument-for-gods-existence/

Thought is required, but obfuscating something as important as this is at least irresponsible (it border on being nefarious imo).

As for you love of the koran, I might be wrong, but consider this as an aspect of it. You ever play a difficult game like dark souls, or listen to complex music, or take on a tough mathematical problem (some of which could take years to solve)? One common element of taking on challenges that are difficult is that at the beginning and to outsiders this all seems tedious, boring etc. However, to most who take the challenge and succeed, they will profess tirelessly to whoever will listen how dark souls is one of the best games ever made, or radiohead is the greatest band ever, or mathematics is the most elegant discipline ever. Others just look on and say 'uh huh'.
Basically, it's an interesting hobby to you, don't expect it to be so to others though.

Thanks, I will read the link eventually


Edited

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/feds-arrest-nakoula-578341

Has this been posted yet?
Anyways, Obama, I'm looking at you...

sadeiyare: lol I understand ; what we don't know is above us

Heh, I can appreciate that, even if from a completely different angle.

So long as your beliefs don't infringe on others right's, let no one force you to comply..
Kudos

sadeiyare: lol. I was in 300l in uni, and I am not just about voices but even see them physically. I live a normal life sir, nothing odd ; wife and son

Ok....
Congrats on the family..
300 may be a little late. And you're a functioning, productive member of society. Else people like me hear stuff like this and think schizop...
But like I've indicated, it is usually debilitating, patients usually can't function properly without support, so you're fine..
Unless you also display any combination of being paranoid, having delusions of grandeur, walking in circles, speaking incoherently, and having your wife provide the necessary support to keep you functional, masking the crazy...
There are other conditions that cause hallucinations as well.
But never you mind me, this is an xtian only thread and you guys seem to enjoy this sort of stuff, I just thought it curious. I'll be on my way...

Ptolomeus: In most of South America, governments are Catholic.
Uruguay is an exception, and I think it is the best option.
It must be very sad that a State is accountable to the Vatican or the shepherds ...
There is a big difference between a state and a secular atheist ...
Uruguay is a secular country.

Between 1865 and 1870 he produced the "War of Paraguay" or "War of the Triple Alliance." Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay fought against Paraguay, in unequal fight. In that war, the Argentine army sent blacks in front, serving a dual function:
a) care for the Argentines
b) get rid of the black, because Argentina has always been a racist country.
A hug!

You learn something new every day. Yes, there were very few blacks then. Very, very, very few..
I didn't realize paraguay was big enough to hold off brazil, but it managed against 3? I should read u on that region

How old were you when you started seeing them, early adult?
The voices you hear, they sound very real?
How are your thought processes generally, notice anything odd?

Ptolomeus: All religions are freely practiced. In Uruguay we do not give more importance to the religious beliefs of a President, because the president can not make religious comments.

That could happen in 9ja. The sun would have died out by then, taking this planet with it, but 9ja could exist on a spaceship or another planet. Maybe then our people could learn to separate government from religion.

Ptolomeus: Very few blacks living in Argentina, and that is a very sad historical explanation ...

Heh heh we were considered exotic, my hair puzzling. Women constantly feeling my hair...

Warm regards

ghazzal: Question: Why "evolution", What was the origin of the assumed "ancestor", when there was "nothiness" as claimed, what was the source of the universe? also if i may ask, what did the sun evolve from and what will it evolve to. do you have information of another universe............


isnt it funny how science use simulation, assumptions, ... to give theory of a past and people believe hook,line and sinker but when same science predict the future and the prediction did not come to past(or not as predicted) what should such person believe about the theory of past event/time that cannot be verified....

Did you read the thread before making this post?
The sun evolves?
Are you trolling? That would better, else your ability to comprehend stuff would be...

Ah, the quotes, I wouldn't want you to expend energy on that , I get it, islam condemns slavery, racism etc, except it doesn't as well. The answer depends on whom you ask. If I asked a muslim 500 years he'd probably say it supports slavery, and find quotes and what not to justify it. This is a feature of all religions, but islam has the bonus of pointing out its prophet had slaves. It is also especially averse to change, condemning people who challenge the status quo, the apostates, to a very special hell. Let me illustrate how insidious various constructs can be

Consider the old testament, that's a fairly barbaric book. A reflection of the times it was conceived. For instance it calls for your death if you work on sabbath. Anyways, xtians at least have the new testament and the jesus legend. It has its flaws, many, but the overall message of those stories is one of love. If someone slaps me, I probably won't hit back as that would be silly, but I won't turn the other cheek. Xtianity requires you turn the other cheek. In jainism, I think if you kill like say a fly or a mosquito, just about any form of life, you would be committing a grave sin. Now, islam might have its good bits, but it officially sanctions warfare. Self defense or no, whatever the condition, it sanctions it. Even without sanctioning violence in any way, through history christians have always used the bible to justify one terror or the other. Humans get carried away. Now if various xtians have been able to justify violence even though their religion strongly abhors it, what do you think followers of a system that justifies violence, any sort of violence, would do?

Basically, my point about it being irresponsibly put together stands. Strongly so. For instance, I never actually said islam says a child must be married, or that it doesn't try to at least get the consent of women. But by your prophet marrying a 6 year old, and his more or else being an example of the perfect human being, with myriad muslims wanting to emulate him, he's opened up a rather large can of worms. Ditto war, slavery. To make matters worse, koran and his actions are infallible to his followers. So when today's guy wants to marry the 13 year old, his justification, 'the prophet (saw) did so'. That islam even goes out of the way to address minutiae with regards to dealing with slavery is very, very bad for business. That's all the excuse many need to go on a slave hunting spree. And worse yet, their intentions will be good. They will chalk it up to doing god's will. (Btw, even if europeans were marrying off at 6/7, I'm sure we can both agree that they were very wrong as well).

In that context, consider the long diatribe against fakirs(is that what you called them, ie apostates). Xtianity bases its homophobia mostly on one verse, an old testament one no less, and they even usually claim the old testament is void. Can you see why it's easy to accuse islam of being insidious, subtly breeding intolerance, amongst many other evils.

Now with morals, there's too much to address here as well, but just a few thoughts. Moral good/evil in my view is subjective as well, but we can attempt at a definition for good and evil. We simply have evil as being injurious, or inflicting suffering on life. We can also take into account mitigating good as far as suffering, or evil, is concerned.

And the relationship with the parents bit, which I somehow missed (my head wanders a bit) probably due to time, my point still stands; I did not ask to be born. Even when taking on pets, I understand the huge responsibility I've asked for in taking care of another living being (I still eat suya though), talk less of a sentient living being. Before we can drill into that we have to go back to free will, omnixxx.

I somehow missed you mentioned free choice as well, or did you modify the post? What's the difference between free choice and free will?
Can you describe each of the omnixxx and does your god possess all 3?


Edit: btw tried to read the links, too long and for the most part it's you guys gushing about how awesome it is, you clearly seem to like it. Could you just show me where your proof for god is? Thank you

I can't see what all the fuss is about. The op is on point. I think it deserves more 'like's. We should be trying to get this to the front page.


....I'm serious....













about the front page

@tbaba

I'll reply that fully eventually, perhaps I need not say that I disagree with a lot of that, strongly. But criticizing it properly without reading the links in it would be unreasonable. I will try to keep this brief for now, but I'll probably fail. I see you didn't address many of my concerns, but I suppose you do so in said links.
Your claims to Islam's being objective in some way or the other is just...Well, maybe paradoxically, you also present it in a language which seems to indicate you do recognize this is based on your subjective preferences;
"Not only that, the life of the prophet proves to me that he is a prophet of God."
"Islam has provided answers to most of my life's questions and destroyed all contentions, i had about faith"

Note the subjective bias here. Also, I bold out the word faith because though I may be misinterpreting, it seems you still think of Islam as a faith based system. By definition, faith stands against reason, objectivity, evidence etc.

With regards to morality, you illustrate my point. Islamic morals may have been more evolved than many western (or any other region) ones in some key areas, but as time has moved on they are now incredulously archaic, while others evolved. Do you honestly believe that the freedoms women enjoy under sharia represent human rights? What is the justification for treating women as 2nd class citizens? Islam. Once upon a time it was slavery, in other era's/religions, racism, etc etc
Like I said, some of islamic laws aspects could be justified considering the time they were drafted, like the controversial child marriage issue. 6 and consummating at 9 is just wrong, for any period of our history, so long as the female was unable to conceive. But for that period say 13-14 was common all over the world. Why? Simple reason, if you lived past 30 then you were already beating the odds. So they'd marry the women young, have them produce babies at an alarming rate by today's standards (many dying during child birth, they did this of course in the hopes that the odds of having children that lived to adulthood increased). They were essentially treated like baby making machines. While this might appear odious by today's standards, we can overlook that and say nature, particularly natural selection, forced our species to behave that way.

In today's world, what gives? How in the world can this be justified? 30 is no longer considered being a senior, medicine is light years ahead of what it was then. But, most importantly, how dare someone be forced into something s/he was not willing to do? For no reason other than religious beliefs, generally accepted as faith based (there's a reason they're called faith based systems). Not to mention, they are kids, they very likely haven't even fully formed a world view, and they are now forced into marriage. Even if the child wanted it (and she would probably want it at that age only because of societal pressure- to make daddy and mommy happy, please god, etc), frankly at that age, she shouldn't have the experience necessary to make that decision. Again, and this is the most important thing, forcing someone against their will to do something because of some unprovable claims you might hold dear is absurd. Infringing on human rights, just because.

Back to my main thread, morality adapting, the west has adapted as the times have moved on. Islam, while at one point a leader, is now woefully behind the curve. A simple analogy would be tech firms in today's world, for instance you hear people bashing RIM (and microsoft) for refusing to adapt to the changing times, ignoring the threat of apple and google, failing to consider new trends, refusing to innovate and evolve etc. Now, should blackberry's os 10 fail, RIM is likely going under. This has happened to many, many firms. Similarly, religions adapt as well, communities adapt. Religious morals justified slavery, racism, and various other evils. As the times move on, these faith based systems look back at their history all contrite, with particular shame, but at least most of successful ones evolve. Not so with islam, except for some instances where they had to else face considerable scorn from the rest of the world, because it believes the koran/hadiths are infallible. Islam's adherents now expect the rest of us to live 1400 years ago simply because it suits them. This is simply unacceptable.


"There is no other explanation other than the fact that he is a prophet of God"
You'd have to accept there was a god first before you could say one was a prophet of his. There are many other explanations (I at least know a bit of his history). Seems you heavily underestimate the power of the human heart. God or no, there are many people who would gladly give you the shirt on their backs while they freeze to death, not all of us are only concerned with self preservation. Even for those, you will usually find something very noble about their intentions at some point in time which led them spiraling into becoming petty. Most people do not grow up thinking they will become some infamous criminal, even many of those who may seem ostensibly so. Mohammed's actions strike me as a case of Hanlons razor actually, but I'll leave it at that for now, time.

For your talk of flexibility, this still stands:
"for a system such as this, a system as important as this, which could lead to unfair persecution here in this life and which you claim could lead to people suffering excruciatingly for eternity, it reeks of irresponsibility from the law makers. If any of us created a system as important as this and left it open to arbitrary interpretions and dubious sourcing, we'd be rightly vilified for it (again, considering its importance). Should the system even be taken seriously? I would have thought that a supposed all-wise being would be able to recognize something as simple as this, and put a lot more thought and effort into forging his system. "

There's plenty more, but this is already tedious... Doubt you could even read all that at a go, I'm not even sure of when I wrote it, I have other things I should be doing as well... Anyways, important for judging your beliefs would be your islam's god's omnixxx nature, and the nature of free will in islam

Too long, too much I diasgree with... Not enough time, I will just take on some bits that stand out at a glance...

tbaba1234: What constitutes fairness?

I will give you a detailed answer here, fortunately for you, i wrote this earlier.

Now the Justice of Hell :
Is Hell just? Allah declares in the Quran that he will not be unjust...

He seems to have as much respect for us as we do say pigs. Accept his word, that's it... He is answerable to no one? There is so much wrong with this statement, especially if you're an unbeliever, I cannot tackle all that now. For this discussion, let me just stress this again; there are very, very few situations where a person's actions are motivated by genuinely evil intentions. This link may seem frivolous, but it's very relevant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
We also haven't ascertained the nature of free will you are pushing, god's omnixxx qualities, but let's move on, for now...

tbaba1234: We have an innate disposition to God (Called the fitrah in Islam), that is why humans throughout history have almost always worshipped God or some kind of diety.

This is interesting, but on a random tangent maybe. Humans have a innate disposition to an alpha in the community, usually in social species this alpha would be male. Hence god, or the main god in faiths that support many gods, is usually male. There's also the need to explain the gaps in our knowledge, etc. Not relevant, I just find it interesting.

tbaba1234: So mankind accepted the trust and therefore accepted the responsibility that came with it. Bliss in the case of obedience, Punishment in the case of disobedience.

I didn't. I was unaware of when this happened, no one asked me. I was just born, given responsibility I didn't ask for, and now apparently I am going to roast in hell forever. I can't use the suicide way out as well, as apparently I will roast for that as well.

tbaba1234: If one claims Hell is unjust, he must also accept that Paradise/eternal bliss is also unjust.

Arbitrarily and rather unjustly judging people is unjust yes, works both ways maybe. But there is no suffering in heaven from what I'm told. Life is averse to suffering, inflicting suffering on a life will be going against its will. Most life would gladly accept eternal bliss on the other hand, you wouldn't be forcing them to do something they do not want to do. Basically, a rights issue.

tbaba1234: God has the right to be worshipped alone because he is the infinite and unlimited creator.

To intend to associate partners to God is to intend to claim a limitation against his power and being. As ascribing equals to him will constitute a limit to his power.

Now tell me what do you think is the gravity of denigrating God from the infinite being to a finite one... What is the magnitude/ range between the finite and the infinite?

The gravity of this in the eyes of God is severe and extreme; It is so severe that it merits from God a perpetual punishment. Actually anything less than a perpetual punishment is unjust to God's right.

So you ask why should God punish unrepentant people who associate partners with God forever... The Question is Why should he not?

If one dies without repenting from this sin, there is no hope for forgiveness in the afterlife.. The Quran affirms the magnitude of this sin...

This seems incredibly petty, especially if there really are no other gods except him. The vanity levels here are through the roof. Why in the world should he care that much? He wants you to love him by force, just because? To never question him, just be a 'yes' man, a sycophant, this despite him apparently having the ability to have anything (and indeed having everything, except the love of some lesser creatures) he desires? That's just...

tbaba1234: Note that when they were faced with punishment they asked to be sent back but like Allah says; if they have been returned; they will do exactly the same thing again. These people would lie and disobey God again. They can not reform themselves. They would keep rejecting God because of their egos and the chance to do what they want in this world.

This will be the afterlife equivalent of letting out of prison an unreformed murderer... Therefore the punishment of Hell is Just....

This would seem to suggest that he knows before hand that they were destined to go to hell. Considering the power usually attributed to him, you are in essence saying that he created them to go to hell. You will have to explain how you view omnixxx and free will before I can confidently assert this, but it certainly looks like he purposely sends people to hell, unleashing untold amounts of suffering both on this world (due to their evil deeds on this world) and in the next as they burn in hell, for doing what he made them to do...

tbaba1234: In summary, i have demostrated why the people deserve to be held accountable for their crimes and why hell is Just rationally using islamic textual sources>>>

Obviously I don't think hell is just.. But there's too much here to discuss.. So yeah, his omnixxx powers and free will are very relevant to any assertions you make. When free, perhaps describe them

Extensive much? You at least have bothered to explore the faith, kudos. Thanks for the effort.
I rarely read quotes from the books for a variety reasons, circular logic, contradictions etc. I don't see why I should spend my time on them as most importantly I find their premises ridiculous. An example, the zodiac, are you a fan? Even if you are, can you understand why people who don't believe in it don't spend their time learning the specifics? It's the same for me and most religions. I like to focus on logic, verifiable evidence, etc, the stuff average atheists enjoy. Don't get me wrong, your post is fitting considering the context and how my post was presented (probably), I add this so you don't waste your time and effort (2 very valuable commodities) on future posts as I will likely ignore specifics and focus on the big picture.
I just culled that passage from a book (obviously), I've certainly never read the (collectively) lengthy tirade. My own personal issue is mostly just the last 3 questions. The quoting is there for a reason: demonstrate the concentrated hatred for a group of people. I'm glad you addressed the opening statements, as they're related, of course.
Another note, quite a few religious people argue with the premise that an atheist already accepts there is a god, this is mind boggling. Keep in mind I won't be doing that, of course.
Let's dive into it...

tbaba1234: ^ What a load of rubbish!, with all due respect...

First of all, your translation is inaccurate, translating kafir as infidel is wrong.

Kafir literally means one who buries or rejects the truth.. So not all non-muslims are Kafirs.... The Kafir is one who has been presented Islam in its pure form and rejects it. Those who do not hear the message of the Quran will be tested by Allah on the day of resurrection:

“… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15].

‘… Every time a group is cast therein [into Hell], its keeper will ask, “Did no warner come to you?” They will say, “Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: ‘Allaah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.’”’ [al-Mulk 67:8]

Doesn't really matter, you could replace kafir with pedophile and what I am trying to demonstrate would not change much.

tbaba1234: As regards your reference to the hell fire, I will show you why Hell is fair using all parameters of fairness in our lives and relating it to the Quranic discourse.

Before that, let us go to the discussion of Suicide and the hadiths, which you stated at the beginning of your assertions...

Islamic legislation is obtained from two sources: the Quran and the sunnah of the prophet....

The sunnah is obtained from the hadiths narrated of the Prophet. The science of the hadiths is a detailed study and hadiths are grouped into different groups depending on its authenticity. We have the

Hadiths with many consecutive reports from different narrators and sources, who can not possibly agree on a lie because of the sheer number of sources... These are the most trusted hadiths: Mutawatir

Other groups of hadiths include

i. Sahih - Sound -each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion; he should be known to be truthtul in his narrating, to understand what he narrates, to know how a different expression can alter the meaning, and to report the wording of the hadith verbatim, not only its meaning".

ii. Hasan - good: is the one where its source is known and its reporters are unambiguous.

iii. Da`if - weak: a hadith which fails to reach the status of Hasan. Usually, the weakness is: a) one of discontinuity in the chain of narration

iv.Maudu` - fabricated or forged: is a hadith whose text goes against the established norms of the Prophet's sayings, or its reporters include a liar. Fabricated hadith are also recognized by external evidence related to a discrepancy found in the dates or times of a particular incident.

So for the most part, we can tell which of the hadiths are trustworthy.

That's nice to know. But for a system such as this, a system as important as this, which could lead to unfair persecution here in this life and which you claim could lead to people suffering excruciatingly for eternity, it reeks of irresponsibility from the law makers. If any of us created a system as important as this and left it open to arbitrary interpretions and dubious sourcing, we'd be rightly vilified for it (again, considering its importance). Should the system even be taken seriously? I would have thought that a supposed all-wise being would be able to recognize something as simple as this, and put a lot more thought and effort into forging his system.
What is particularly disturbing about islam is that it holds that the koran is infallible. Countries change their constitutions even, talk less of laws. Morality changes, adapts and modifies with time. Some things acceptable 1400 years ago, maybe even justified given context, are in today's world (rightly) abhorred. Islam, on the other hand, remains stuck in that period, with often very real evil deadly consequences, that is why I asked @ghazzal if the koran was infallible.

tbaba1234: If a hadith is properly studied in its original context; then we can obtain a proper understanding of it... It is easy to throw out isolated narrations even if they are authentic without a proper study of its historical context. Unfortunately, Many non-muslims and even muslims are guilty of these kinds of things that did not exist in our scholarly traditions.

Having said that; A statement that says: '"And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you". (Surah An-Nisa Verse 29)" is hardly ambiguous...

This is backed by a number of authentic narrations of the Prophet in the hadiths about suicide.

Hadith - Bukhari 2:445, Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak

The Prophet said, "Whoever intentionally swears falsely by a religion other than Islam, then he is what he has said, (e.g. if he says, 'If such thing is not true then I am a Jew,' he is really a Jew). And whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire."

Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, "A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him."

Hadith - Bukhari 7:670, Narrated Abu Huraira

The Prophet said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever."


Hadith - Muslim #6480

Anas (b. Malik) reported Allah's Messenger as saying: None of you should make a request for death because of the trouble in which he is involved, but if there is no other help to it, then say: O Allah, keep me alive as long as there is goodness in life for me and bring death to me when there is goodness in death for me.


I could go on and on and on..... Suicide is indefensible no matter who tries to justify it.

Most of this I can agree with, except the bold. My point above is still relevant though. Importantly also, obviously a lot of people justify it, probably by quoting other sources deemed authentic by whoever is interpreting them, likely from the koran itself or other hadiths. We will come back to the issue of intention soon enough, but there is an important reality as far as intentions are concerned which is that for most of the fanatics, their intentions are good.

tbaba1234: So the Questions is: Is the punishment of Hell fair??

Relevant, probably

Second part coming up, if you're online atm, pls allow me to complete it before you respond

@pot, let me just hammer this in again, Uruguay, you guys elected an atheist... Even in the US of A that is considered impossible atm. There are lots of atheist leaders, but I wouldn't have expected one from your region (I don't know much about the region though, I'm definitely ignorant there, just using the media's portrayal) except for maybe argentina, with its desire to pass itself off as european (I used to live there so very long ago, I can barely remember it though, but excellent memories). You must be mighty proud that your people can put aside petty differences and vote the right man for the job, regardless of personal beliefs (and other inane $hit)

Seriously, 9ja bros, we should be looking to split up, like yesterday...

ghazzal: yes it is. undiluted word of God.

Ah! This got moved to the islamic section, usually no go for me. Most of the theists in /religion won't play with me anymore though. As we've already started...

'If you believe
anything like what the Koran says you must believe in order to
escape the fires of hell, you will, at the very least, be sympathetic
with the actions of Osama bin Laden. The prohibitions against "sui-
cidal terrorism" are not nearly as numerous as Pollack suggests. The
Koran contains a single ambiguous line, "Do not destroy your-
selves" (4:29). Like most commentators on these matters, Pollack
seems unable to place himself in the position of one who actually
believes the propositions set forth in the Koran—that paradise
awaits, that our senses deliver nothing but evidence of a fallen world
in desperate need of conquest for the glory of God. Open the Koran,
which is perfect in its every syllable, and simply read it with the eyes
of faith. You will see how little compassion need be wasted on those
whom God himself is in the process of "mocking," "cursing,"
"shaming," "punishing," "scourging," "judging," "burning," "anni-
hilating," "not forgiving," and "not reprieving." God, who is
infinitely wise, has cursed the infidels with their doubts. He pro-
longs their life and prosperity so that they may continue heaping sin
upon sin and all the more richly deserve the torments that await
them beyond the grave. In this light, the people who died on
September 11 were nothing more than fuel for the eternal fires of
God's justice. To convey the relentlessness with which unbelievers
are vilified in the text of the Koran, I provide a long compilation of
quotations below, in order of their appearance in the text. This is
what the Creator of the universe apparently has on his mind (when
he is not fussing with gravitational constants and atomic weights):
"It is the same whether or not you forwarn them [the unbeliev-
ers], they will have no faith" (2:6). "God will mock them and keep
them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (2:15). A fire "whose
fuel is men and stones" awaits them (2:24). They will be "rewarded
with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the
Day of Resurrection" (2:85). "God's curse be upon the infidels!"
(2:89). "They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An igno-
minious punishment awaits [them]" (2:90). "God is the enemy of
the unbelievers" (2:98 ). "The unbelievers among the People of the
Book [Christians and Jews], and the pagans, resent that any blessing
should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2:105). "They
shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the
hereafter" (2:114). "Those to whom We [God] have given the Book,
and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that
deny it shall assuredly be lost" (2:122). "[We] shall let them live
awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall
be their fate" (2:126). "The East and the West are God's. He guides
whom He will to a straight path" (2:142). "Do not say that those
slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, but you are not
aware of them" (2:154). "But the infidels who die unbelievers shall
incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall
remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor
shall they be reprieved" (2:162). "They shall sigh with remorse, but
shall never come out of the Fire" (2:168 ). "The unbelievers are like
beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a
shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing"
(2:172). "Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2:175). "How stead-
fastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book
with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism"
(2:176). "Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the
places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage.
.. . [I]f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbe-
lievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merci-
ful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion
reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-
doers" (2:190-93). "Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dis-
like it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and
love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know
not" (2:216). "They will not cease to fight against you until they
force you to renounce your faith—if they are able. But whoever of
you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing
in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the ten-
ants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have
embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought
for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2:217-18). "God
does not guide the evil-doers" (2:258). "God does not guide the
unbelievers" (2:264). "The evil-doers shall have none to help them"
(2:270). "God gives guidance to whom He will" (2:272).
"Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished;
God is mighty and capable of revenge" {3:5). "As for the unbeliev-
ers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them
from God's judgment. They shall become fuel for the Fire" (3:10).
"Say to the unbelievers: 'You shall be overthrown and driven into
Hell—an evil resting place!'" (3:12). "The only true faith in God's
sight is Islam He that denies God's revelations should know that
swift is God's reckoning" (3:19). "Let the believers not make friends
with infidels in preference to the faithful—he that does this has
nothing to hope for from God—except in self-defense" (3:28).
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They
will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your
ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their
mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal"
(3:118). "If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy. We alter-
nate these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the
true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not
love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihi-
late the infidels" (3:140). "Believers, if you yield to the infidels they
will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdi-
tion We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers The
Fire shall be their home" (3:149-51). "Believers, do not follow the
example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet
death abroad or in battle: 'Had they stayed with us they would not
have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause them to
regret their words. .. . If you should die or be slain in the cause of
God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than
all the riches they amass" (y.156). "Never think that those who were
slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, and well provided
for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those they
left behind, who have not yet joined them, have nothing to fear or
to regret; rejoicing in God's grace and bounty. God will not deny the
faithful their reward" (3:169}. "Let not the unbelievers think that
We prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite
only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful pun-
ishment awaits them" (3:178). "Those that suffered persecution for
My sake and fought and were slain: I shall forgive them their sins
and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a reward
from God; God holds the richest recompense. Do not be deceived by
the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief.
Hell shall be their home, a dismal resting place" (3:195-96).
"God has cursed them in their unbelief" (4:46). "God will not for-
give those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive
whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God
is guilty of a heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of
the Scriptures was given. They believe in idols and false gods and
say of the infidels: These are better guided than the believers'"
(4:50-51). "Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No
sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other
skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and
wise" (4:55-56).
"Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those
who were given the Book before you, who have made of your reli-
gion a jest and a pastime" (5:57}. "That which is revealed to you
from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of
many among them. We have stirred among them enmity and
hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection" (5:65). "God
does not guide the unbelievers" {5:67). "That which is revealed to
you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbe-
lief of many among them, But do not grieve for the unbelievers"
(5:69). "You see many among them making friends with unbeliev-
ers. Evil is that to which their souls prompt them. They have
incurred the wrath of God and shall endure eternal torment... . You
will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the
faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection
to them are those who say: 'We are Christians'" (5:80-82}. "[T]hose
that disbelieve and deny Our revelations shall become the inmates
of Hell" (5:86).
"[TJhey deny the truth when it is declared to them: but they shall
learn the consequences of their scorn" (6:5). "We had made them
more powerful in the land than yourselves [the Meccans], sent down
for them abundant water from the sky and gave them rivers that
rolled at their feet. Yet because they sinned We destroyed them all
and raised up other generations after them. If We sent down to you
a Book inscribed on real parchment and they touched it with their
own hands, the unbelievers would still assert: 'This is but plain sor-
cery.' They ask: 'Why has no angel been sent down to him [Muham-
mad] ?' If We had sent down an angel, their fate would have been
sealed and they would have never been reprieved" (6:5-8 ). "Who is
more wicked than the man who invents falsehoods about God or
denies His revelations 1" (6:21). "Some of them listen to you. But We
have cast veils over their hearts and made them hard of hearing lest
they understand your words. They will believe in none of Our signs,
even if they see them one and all. When they come to argue with
you the unbelievers say: 'This is nothing but old fictitious tales.'
They forbid it and depart from it. They ruin none but themselves,
though they do not perceive it. If you could see them when they are
set before the Fire! They will say: 'Would that we could return!
Then we would not deny the revelations of our Lord and would be
true believers' {6:23-27). "But if they were sent back, they would
return to that which they have been forbidden. They are liars all"
(6:29). "Had God pleased He would have given them guidance, one
and all" {6:35). "Deaf and dumb are those that deny Our revelations:
they blunder about in darkness. God confounds whom He will, and
guides to a straight path whom He pleases." (6:39) "[T]heir hearts
were hardened, and Satan made their deeds seem fair to them. And
when they had clean forgotten Our admonition We granted them all
that they desired; but just as they were rejoicing in what they were
given, We suddenly smote them and they were plunged into utter
despair. Thus were the evil-doers annihilated. Praise be to God, Lord
of the Universe!" (6:43-45). "[Tjhose that deny Our revelations
shall be punished for their misdeeds" (6:49). "Such are those that are
damned by their own sins. They shall drink scalding water and be
sternly punished for their unbelief" (6:70). "Could you but see
the wrongdoers when death overwhelms them! With hands out-
stretched, the angels will say: 'Yield up your souls. You shall be
rewarded with the scourge of shame this day, for you have said of
God what is untrue and scorned His revelations" (6:93). "Avoid the
pagans. Had God pleased, they would not have worshipped idols.. ..
We will turn away their hearts and eyes from the Truth since they
refused to believe in it at first. We will let them blunder about in
their wrongdoing. If We sent the angels down to them, and caused
the dead to speak to them,.. . and ranged all things in front of them,
they would still not believe, unless God willed otherwise. . . . Thus
have We assigned for every prophet an enemy: the devils among
men and jinn, who inspire each other with vain and varnished false-
hoods. But had your Lord pleased, they would not have done so.
Therefore leave them to their own inventions, so that the hearts of
those who have no faith in the life to come may be inclined to what
they say and, being pleased, persist in their sinful ways" (6:107—12).
"The devils will teach their votaries to argue with you. If you obey
them you shall yourselves become idolaters, .. . God will humiliate
the transgressors and mete out to them a grievous punishment for
their scheming" (6:121-25). "^ God w ^ s t0
guide a man, He opens
his bosom to Islam. But if he pleases to confound him, He makes his
bosom small and narrow as though he were climbing up to heaven.
Thus shall God lay the scourge on the unbelievers" (6:125). '


Is all this in the koran? Do you think it fitting of a holy book?
Yo say the hadiths are flawed, why then do you stone people to death with laws from the hadiths?
WhAat is the reccomended punishment for apostacy? Why is there even one?

Maybe enough for now....

Btw, somewhat odd.. The zetsus keep on saying bakakashi , a portmanteau of baka and kakashi... Now switch to hausa, they are saying 'ba ka kashi'... Coincidence? I smell a conspiracy..

musKeeto: not with what you Fathers and Papas are doing in the catholic and pentecostal churches.. sowing the fruits of the spirit in hard grounds... lol...

You're wasting your talent..

biolabee: when was this that the kyubi observed madara's chakra

Brain fart, I was probably thinking sasuke, but I do remember the 9 tails mentioning madara some other time.. Not sure

Edit: www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c501/8.html he goes 'you', ambigious kishi... Wether that means he recognized him or was just suprised to see someone is anybody's guess

And seriously, chaining someone for years... That's like some animal cruelty... No wonder kurama is pissed...

Is this still about a unicorn or the FSM? If they were intended to be trolls, they seem rather efficient.

Obito had a gundam? Surely kishi...
Then again, now you know it didn't take just 2 nin to take down the uchihas, how they left no evidence though is bewildering
Also, potentially explain how 9 tails et al detect madara's chakra/aura when tobi shows up
Am I the only one who's ok with tobi=obito?

Ok crazy, allow me to demonstrate that though you are a harmony loving and rather gentle hippie guy, your ideas are crazy, therefore your handle is apt. DO HO HO HO.... Anyone? Guise? ok, moving on..

CrazyMan: Now you believe that evil exists right? Allow me to prove to you just like the student did to the prof...

Evil as you know, is not a positive thing that is out there in the world, but merely an absence of good.

God therefore cannot be blamed for bringing evil into existence; evil is not a thing and so was not brought into existence.

The idea that the world contains evil (i.e. certain privations of good) can thus be reconciled with the idea that it was created by a God who would not create evil; it is only the good in the world that was created, the bad is merely an absence of good.

Therefore from that theory (the prof and the student), permit me to say that evil does not exist.

Your position is confusing to me, you do not think evil is exists? You claim only good exists, without evil? Ok, so you mean good is more or else measured by degrees, so the default state of the universe has no good, god just adds good as he sees fit? Is that it?
First off, just have at the back of your mind that before evil or good (in this context) exist life has to exist. You cannot judge an event to be good or evil if it does not affect life.
Did god create natural laws? Did he create all the energy in the universe, and supply the laws? He allowed for the earthquakes and myriad natural disasters, the sometimes capricious properties of life forms, like predators eating prey alive. Here's the thing, god did create these elements, natural disasters and what not, and these elements undoubtedly inflict evil. It isn't that this universes default state is evil, it didn't create said capricious nature's elements, god did. This universes default state would be.....nothing. Your creator created all the other elements and by extension the evil they inflict.
Is the god you speak of omnipotent? If so, that opens up another can of worms.

CrazyMan: And if evil doesn't exist, it means there is good somewhere and the good comes from God; which means God exist.

Even if evil didn't really exist, why do assume good comes from god (yours which I assume is probably sentient)? Must a sentient be behind creation? When it rains and a puddle is formed, no sentience was involved making the puddle. Simple natural laws made the puddle.

CrazyMan: There we go again...then why did you choose to believe in evolution - and reject the bible?

For one, simple mathematics, logic, proofs and laws. You know that say you start with 4, and keep adding the number 2, each number produced from this premise will be divisible by 2. Alter formula and yet you can still deduce what your results will be like down the line. You know 5*5+10=35, simple logic etc.
We know this,
there are genetic mutations
there is natural selection
Artificial selection shows how radical changes in a species can be achieved if there were a purpose in them. In this case breeders doing the selection, for profit or what not, rather than nature (which is haphazard). They have created oddities like completely hairless cats, the many breeds of dogs which are offshoots of wolves themselves, etc. Put together natural selection and genetic mutations, stew that for millenia, consider geography as well. 1 + 2 = 3, you can see where this is going. Now note, should a single fossil show up where it shouldn't be, that calls the evolution theory into question. This has never happened, every single fossil that has shown up has been found in regions that support evolution. That's testable, that's science.
Logically sound, physically testable (via mutating new species of bacteria in labs as well as fossil records), evolution is science much the same way general relativity is. If you can come up with a better theory, logically at least but better yet with objectively and physically verifiable attributes/properties, predictions, etc I'll gladly accept it.

You can't test diddly squat about most of the bible's claims, its logic is worse than that of many 10 year olds, and many of its claims/predictions are demonstrably wrong. This is not science, at all. You could accept it if you wish of course, your subjective preference, why should anyone care so long as you don't bother them? Objectively though, never bring it up, it can't back up it's claims, at all.

CrazyMan: Isn't 4.6 billion years a hell of a life time?

If a scientist can acknowledge the fact that the earth is billions of years old don't you think its absurd to remain adamant on the evolution theory...I mean why haven't any stones become animals, and why haven't animals evolved into humans?

I'm not sure what the first question is for, I think you misunderstand what I wrote.
As for the second part, a common error, people seem to assume there's a purpose to evolution, there is none. The sun is shining, does that mean the sun has a purpose? No, it's just what happens when you mix up all those chemicals, energy, forces etc. Humanity is not the purpose of evolution, else god/nature or whoever supposedly had intelligence, a will and purpose sure was inefficient when going about it. It took him 4.6 billion years to create humanity (ignoring the time it took to form the earth). Our scientists breed vastly different versions of micro-cellular life much more quickly, our breeders are undoubtedly much more efficient as well. Not to mention, 99 percent of every species ever to have existed is extinct. If there was a sentient will behind that, it was rather terrible at executing its goals.

CrazyMan: If the theory is true why isn't there any visible evidence or proof to back it up?

Above

CrazyMan: Why do you think you can test God...God doesn't have to become some lab rat for you to poke a few pins into before you believe he exists.

If you claim that the existence of God is questionable, the allow me to say that scientific theory on evolution is also questionable because we're yet to see physical proofs.

Again, above. Provide me with objective evidence of your god. Note, not subjective or built on flawed or unverifiable assumptions

CrazyMan: Facts?

To be honest, I couldn't find any.

Really?

Seriously though, I do think you maybe misunderstand some things when you read them, carefully judge the language perhaps?

ihedinobi: lol.... You sound like a kid who sees the Bogeyman in every dark corner of the house. Hypocrisy? Lol

Edit: the glasses? That's the 'cool' emoticon. You know what that is, right? I just like the freaking smiley. I'm thinking of using it to sign all my posts from now on

I may be wrong about the hipocrisy, true, and I note that. I'm not interested in drilling you at the moment, but we'll have our day. You will choke in your own illogic when we do. This prediction being more accurate than anything from your bible. Train, @ihe, train!
Btw, you're trying to come off as cool?

Uyi Iredia: Typical atheist stupidity.

I don't know = stupid
I know, it was created in 6 days, and some of the stuff taking place before there was the earth, therefore making the notion of earth days useless, and the universe revolves around us for your information, omnipotent god taking his time to do everything in earth days, ahead of the gzillion other planets or potentially better ways to keep track of time = intelligent

Religion ruts the brains
Jokes aside, I implore you to learn to admit your ignorance, and at least try to educate yourself. Idiiots like you spread cancer in 9ja by leaving everything to god

ghazzal: no. the Quran. for the hadith, it is not news that there are now fabricated hadiths so the litmus test is that it must conform with teachings of the Quran else its autenticity is void.

Is everything inside the koran the unquestionable and perfect word of god?

You know you can ignore me if you wish, yes?

Ihedinobi: Nope, dude. I expect nothing anymore. But I'm deciding to start making demands. You get that, right?

No.. I can see lingering hypocrisy, but I may be wrong
And what are the sun glasses for, if I may ask?

ghazzal: Use it as instructed and be successful.

Most of that post is way off, this bit I just choose to highlight. Does this include the hadiths?

@ihe, even if you did have a point (and I don't think you do for the most part, most atheists react, not instigate), is this the thread to whine about it? Have you seen the op? You expect us to just bleat?