₦airaland Forum

tbaba1234: Your points

I. Why does it (the sun) not serve only us??

II. Why did it take so long??

You talk about the sun... All you have presented is the fact that we as humans have not been able to harness the energy efficiently the sun offers to our planet.

The sun already provides energy nfor us... All we need to do is to look for better ways to access it.

Yes, He is a genius... In all of human existence, we still haven't figured out a way to harness the sun.

tbaba1234: Back to the Junk yard: Do you think that after blowing up the Junk-yard for billions of years, we will end up with a rolls royce...

tbaba1234: You might not like the amount of time it takes but it is still proof for design. Time and space are constructs we understand because we live in the Universe.

A creator must exist outside the Universe to create it, therefore those constructs do not matter to Him.

telegraph: He concluded that it was possible for a whole new universe to exist inside every black hole, which could mean that our own universe could be inside a black hole as well.

It is hard to see how we could test whether or not Dr Poplawski's theory is correct; the force of gravity in black holes is such that nothing can escape, so no information about what is going on inside one can ever reach us.

tbaba1234: Do you know how small the earth is in the scheme of things?? And we are talking about the sun been created over a period of "earth time?

Using 'earth time' for the one who created the universe seems like a foolhardy thing to do... Like seriously, Do you know how small the earth is?? Do you know how massive the Universe is??

I think the problem here is your frame of reference. As a human, 4.5 billion human years might seem like a lot but for one who created the whole universe and is not bounded by it. That is no time at all..

tbaba1234: Another faulty, faulty argument...

Chance would not create precision in our universe... The Sun serves other purposes as well in the solar system. All planets revolve around it and some of those planets are absolutely essential for our survival here..

The chance hypothesis gets weaker and weaker the more you look..

Your time point must be one of the silliest things, i have heard in a while...

tbaba1234: I asked you to read the book and form your own opinions not to quote from website...

Imagine i said: wiegraf fought against those who attacked him and killed one of the them

And a person quotes: Wiegraf killed one of them.

Are they the same thing.. Now let's examine the disingenousness of your Quotes

Quote 1: “Slay the nonbelievers wherever you find them. Drive them out.” (2:190)

Real Quote: Fight in God’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits:c God does not love those who overstep the limits. (2:190)

Quote 2: “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’” (8:7)

Real Quote: Remember how God promised you [believers] that one of the two enemy groups would fall to you: you wanted the unarmed group to be yours, but it was God’s will to establish the truth according to His Word and to finish off the disbelievers– (8:7)

(Obviously talking about a previous military victory, the battle of badr)

Quote 3: “. . . kill the disbelievers wherever we find them. . .” (2:191)

Real Quote: (starting from 190):Fight in God’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits: God does not love those who overstep the limits. Kill them wherever you encounter them,and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing.Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them– this is what such disbelievers deserve– but if they stop, then God is most forgiving and merciful. Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to God. If they cease hostilities, there can be no [further] hostility, except towards aggressors (2:190-193)

I could go on and on... This is intellectual laziness at its peak... Read the book and develop your own opinions..

I have studied much of the Quran including the historical context of most of the Ayat (translated as verses) so i could go into a detailed discussion on many of its ayat....

I do not need google for that. I have studied most of the Quran . You are talking to an educated muslim, at least show a bit of intelligence when discussing Islam

Do yourself a favour because this kind of intellectual laziness is embarrassing.

If i go to a website with a clear agenda to show Islam as bad or evil what do you expect to get?? Get a translation and read for yourself.

tbaba1234: Go back and read again...

i.The Universe began to exist and hence has a cause. In all of human experience, we observe this to be the case. Not an assumption

tbaba1234: ii. The Universe shows design everywhere we look, We leads to rationally conclude that it has a designer given the fact that in all of human experience, a design indicates a designer. Not an assumption

tbaba1234: iii. The Universe has an intelligent designer because the more we study.. we find more incredible things, the one who designed the human brain must be very intelligent. The designer is definitely Intelligent. Not an assumption

tbaba1234: iv. From all of human experience, this kind of order does not come from chaos.. Order comes from design. Not an assumption

tbaba1234: v. The Universe has a creator with a Will. The Universe began to exist at a point in time. This means the designer willed it to exist. Not an assumption

tbaba1234: vi. This Intelligent creator exists outside the Universe because to create it, He must exist outside it. If i am buiding a house, i must necessarily exist outside the house. Not an assumption

tbaba1234: vii. This means He is not bounded by the laws of this Universe and operates outside those laws... Not an assumption

tbaba1234: Viii. This Intelligent creator/designer with a will not bounded by the laws of the Universe is what We call God.

tbaba1234: No assumption was made, It is simple rational deduction from human experience. What we call common sense.

tbaba1234: No, it is very poosible to get all raw material in one place, like the junkyard

2. The desert (having Oil and trace metals) is actually a very good example because Oil-plastic, Sand -glass/silicon chip, trace metal: circuit board etc..

Okay maybe a phone is too complex for random events, a mirror, glass , plastic... anything??

tbaba1234: Chaos brings about just more chaos..

wiki: We can demonstrate there must be at least two people in London with the same number of hairs on their heads as follows. A typical human head has around 150,000 hairs; it is reasonable to assume that no one has more than 1,000,000 hairs on their head (m = 1 million holes). Since there are more than 1,000,000 people in London (n is bigger than 1 million items), if we assign a pigeonhole to each number of hairs on a person's head, and assign people to pigeonholes according to the number of hairs on each person's head, there must be at least two people with the same number of hair on their heads (or, n > m). In the case with the fewest overlaps, there will be at least one person assigned to every pigeonhole, at which point the 1,000,001st person is assigned to the same pigeonhole as someone else. Of course, there may be empty pigeonholes in which case this "collision" happens before we get to the 1,000,000th person. The principle just proves the existence of an overlap; it says nothing of the number of overlaps.

tbaba: Having a controlled environment is the only way to observe them... We simply manipulate other things that exist in the universe to 'create them". That is not creation.... A mobile phone does not exist in nature so i manipulate other materials to make it.

Making these elements involve manipulating elements and compounds that already exist in Nature in a controlled environment.

That is not creation, dude... I think i might be lowering my IQ at this rate discussing with you.

Like i said, Humans do not create, we simply manipulate what exists in nature.

me, from the very same post:
You could get away with indicating humans cannot add to the total amount of energy in the universe, and that could perhaps be true, but that's not what I meant. And again, read up, something comes from nothing all the time in this universe, but the picture may not be complete so we can ignore that for now.

wiki: Keep waiting! when we get there.

wiki: You have

i. Presented a time argument which is silly considering who we are talking about.

ii. Shown intellectual dishonesty and laziness by misquoting ayat of the Quran... No understanding of historical context or proper study, Quoting sites named :answeringIslam

iii. Claimed 'creation' out of something made in the lab.

The more i look at your claims, i understand why you would choose something as irrational as atheism. Maybe you did fall out of the sky.... Maybe i could figure out the mathematical probability of that. At least there is a chance.

The chance hypothesis is quite hilarious, fairy tale stuff...

tbaba: Keep trying.. Maybe you will come up with something half-decent in your next post. And keep your resentment towards God on the low, we are trying to have a discussion as two humans. This kind of rebellion only makes you come across as having nothing good to say.

Note: I would not respond to your next post, if it contains any insult to God.

tbaba1234: There is no randomly making stuff-up. Just applying common sense.

tbaba1234: Same thing, The orderliness of physical laws also indicates design. Everything follows certain laws. You throw an apple up and it falls down everytime. 100%... There is very clear, undeniable evidence of design all around you. All you have to do is reflect.

It is through rational deduction and simple common sense..

nasa: The Sun's output is 3.8 x 1033 ergs/second, or about 5 x 1023 horsepower. How much is that? It is enough energy to melt a bridge of ice 2 miles wide, 1 mile thick, and extending the entire way from the Earth to the Sun, in one second.

boston paper: The sun radiates uniformly in all directions, mainly visible light and infrared radiation, and we can calculate the total amount of energy radiated by measuring the quantity of solar energy/second reaching every square meter of Earth and then multiplying that by the total surface area of a sphere with radius equal to the radius of Earth orbit. We get the astonishingly huge amount of 400 trillion trillion watts. To put this into a crazy context, every second the sun produces the same energy as about a trillion 1 megaton bombs! In one second, our sun produces enough energy for almost 500,000 years of the current needs of our so-called civilization. If only we could collect it all and use it!

wiki: The Sun was formed about 4.57 billion years ago from the collapse of part of a giant molecular cloud that consisted mostly of hydrogen and helium and which probably gave birth to many other stars.[103] This age is estimated using computer models of stellar evolution and through nucleocosmochronology.[9] The result is consistent with the radiometric date of the oldest Solar System material, at 4.567 billion years ago.[104][105] Studies of ancient meteorites reveal traces of stable daughter nuclei of short-lived isotopes, such as iron-60, that form only in exploding, short-lived stars. This indicates that one or more supernovae must have occurred near the location where the Sun formed. A shock wave from a nearby supernova would have triggered the formation of the Sun by compressing the gases within the molecular cloud, and causing certain regions to collapse under their own gravity.[106] As one fragment of the cloud collapsed it also began to rotate due to conservation of angular momentum and heat up with the increasing pressure. Much of the mass became concentrated in the center, while the rest flattened out into a disk which would become the planets and other solar system bodies. Gravity and pressure within the core of the cloud generated a lot of heat as it accreted more gas from the surrounding disk, eventually triggering nuclear fusion. Thus, the Sun was born.

tbaba: You accuse a book of being hate-filled and you have not read it. So much for evidence.

GOD!:
● “Slay the nonbelievers wherever you find them. Drive them out.” (2:190)

● “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’” (8:7)

● “. . . kill the disbelievers wherever we find them. . .” (2:191)

● “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers.” (8:12)

● “I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.” (8:12)

● “Strike off the heads of the disbelievers” and make a “wide slaughter among them.” (47:4)

● ”Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.” (8:59)

● “. . . fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.” (9:5)

● “A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. . . Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.” (Ishaw:327)

GOD! again:
Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.”

Qur’an 4.89 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Qur’an 5:51 “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”

Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.”

Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”

Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”

Qur’an 9.33 He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions.

Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”

Qur’an 8:71 And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM

Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Qur’an 48:13 Those who “believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!”

Qur’an 3:54 “‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations (the Torah and Gospels) and follow this Apostle (Jesus). Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.”

Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”

Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”

Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”

Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”

Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.”

Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”

google: hate
/hāt/
Verb
Feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone): "the boys hate each other".
Noun
Intense or passionate dislike: "feelings of hate".
Synonyms
verb. detest - abhor - loathe - abominate - execrate - dislike
noun. hatred - odium - abhorrence - detestation - loathing

google: stu·pid
/ˈst(y)o͞opid/
Adjective
Lacking intelligence or common sense.
Noun
A stupid person (often used as a term of address): "you're not a coward, stupid!".
Synonyms
adjective. foolish - dull - obtuse - dense - fatuous - idiotic
noun. fool - goof - tomfool - booby - dolt - slowpoke

tbaba: There is no atheist, i have met that has been able to produce a successful counter-arguement and as expected you are failing woefully too..

tbaba: Think and reflect... It is just common sense...Just like you have an ancestry...

Get out of this irrationality.

In mathematics, we can calculate the probability of everything. No matter how improbable, i can still give you a figure.

tbaba: Conceivably, the materials needed for a mobile phone can be located in a region ...It does not matter how much random events happen ... You will not end up with order or a mobile phone.

tbaba: The sun is purposeless... Now i know, you are not too bright... The Main source of energy on the earth that sustains all life. The main source of energy on the earth is purposeless. lol.... Without the sun, all life will disappear in not very long.

Maybe, I should explain this slowly..

The argument is not that of : I don't know... It is that of a causality and design.The complex weather patterns indicates design...This kind of design does not come out of randomness.... Imagine, i continuously and randomly drop atomic bombs on a junk-yard, even if all the parts needed to make a car is there, i do not end up with a rolls Royce. Such chaos, only leads to more chaos.

Point: The fact that we have order from seeming chaos is actually a pointer to design.... A pointer to a designer.... Meaning, It was not chaos at all. It was the way it was designed.

It is the only rational conclusion... The chance argument is something from fairy tale land.

Everything has a chance in mathematics, no matter how improbable.

tbaba: An infinite regress is absurd... I thought that was explained...

The Creator never began to exist... There is no question of something coming from nothing.

tbaba: Human create nothing, We just manipulate what already exist in nature... #anotherfail

magazine: The answer to the question of how many objects on the periodic table of the elements are naturally occurring is actually a bit complicated. Conventional wisdom says that the first 92 elements, from element one, hydrogen, to element 92, uranium, are all naturally occurring, but in fact some of these elements are highly unstable, and have only been observed when they have been created artificially.

tbaba: Random?? lol

Not random at all... randomness does not give birth to such order... refer back to the Junk yard example #atheistfailagain..

tbaba: I have had a number of discussions with atheists and this is a common observation. It is based on my limited sample.

I am obedient because i am intellectually convinced of a God and of my religion.

Note: You failed woefully to give any kind of rebuttal to any point raised and i used just basic common sense arguments. Read the arguments and follow logically.

The irrationality of atheistic thought is exposed again for any neutral reader...

1Godfather: 1) The first sentence of this post is unnecessarily broad and therefore empirically false. First, of the thousands of religions or religious beliefs out there, only a handful (3 to be precise) are MONOTHEISTIC. This fact invalidates the idea that many or even a sizable proportion of religious beliefs have a clearly defined position on this matter. Secondly, in Christianity, it is understood that while God is absolutely sovereign and has the power to cast a sinning soul to hell, it is not his wish for any soul to separated from him in the end. Therefore having invested humans with free-will, or to put it another way, having made humans free moral agents, we must thus bear the pre-specified consequences of our rational decisions and actions. On this view, God doesn't so much as send people to hell as it is the case that people who INTENTIONALLY and CONSCIOUSLY reject God and his prescribed blueprint for daily living have on their own chosen to separate themselves from God. A loving father may say to a young child "I strongly encourage you not to play with fire. I forbid you from sticking your finger into an open flame". To the child, this is a commandment from the father. However, the child has freewill and may choose entirely on his own to obey or disobey his father. If he disobeys his father and eventually burns his finger, or worse sets the house on fire in his father's absence, he has no rational grounds upon which to decry the consequence of his actions. The choice was there; he freely chose to disregard his father's commands, and has automatically reaped the consequence.

1Godfather: 2) It is extremely irrational or at best laughably idiotic to posit that freewill must not exist because you were not given a choice as to whether you would be born or not. What sort of unthinking objection is this to the idea of freewill? Some of you atheists just blather on without really thinking about what you might be saying. Pray tell, how can you be given a choice as to whether you would be born or not? To whom would this choice be presented to? Isn't it even clear to all and sundry that for any choice to be presented to you in a matter, YOU must at least first of all be here for the choice to be given to you? You cannot have any say as to whether you would be born or not. That decision was made by your parents. Having been born however, you possess as a free moral and rational agent the ability to make your own choices when you are confronted with moral situations. If you claim to not have this free-will, you do not caricature the idea of God or of theism; indeed you would merely be insulting yourself as you immediately mark yourself out to be something slightly less than fully human.

1Godfather: 3)You may need to explain what you mean by "partial free-will". My guess is that when this is explored, it may turn out to be that what you derogatorily refer to as "partial freewill" is what most people understand free-will to mean. I'm inclined to think that when it comes to free-will, our freely willed actions are total and complete. I do not see freely willed actions as susceptible to minute divisions therefore notions like "half freewill", or "partial freewill" are patently misleading.

Kay 17: However, everything changes if commands are followed by punitive measures, then free will is deliberately and intently diminished, because punishment is accompanied by an intention to enforce compilance.

Its different from deliberately jumping off a cliff

musKeeto: Very well, honesty is all we ask for, not word redefinitions... God is mean, simple and short.. Then let's understand why he's mean...

Hw ya end btw?

@weigraf: I dey see u...

1Godfather: If I may be bold, I'd say that a paradoxical relationship has not successfully been established between Free-will and Religion. That is an assertion that deserves to be fleshed out in greater detail, and sadly, it hasn't. When an effort is made to that end, then we can be better positioned to understand the argument. Are the people claiming to see this paradox arguing that one proscribes or prohibits the other? If they are, I'd like to see this argued out more conclusively. If not, what exactly is the Freewill-Religion paradox?

tbaba1234: No, you have not shown me proof of this.... you must have I can also say there must be a God... Please show me physical evidence.

You see, because you are here, you know you had an ancestry. It is the only rational deduction. The whole world is here acting with incredible precision and design. We know there must be an intelligent designer. It is the only rational deduction

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

tbaba1234: Imagine you are working around in the desert and you find a mobile phone. Around you in the desert, you have the basic raw materials needed to make a mobile phone. You have sand from which you can make glass, silicon chip. You have oil to make plastic, you have traces of precious metals to make the circuit board, you have heat (the sun).

The point is this: The basic minerals needed to make a mobile phone exist in the desert and some of them are in large amounts but you do not see a mobile phone and come to the conclusion that it is as a result of billions of years of random weather or conditions. Common sense tells you that someone dropped it there. Any other option is ridiculous.

Again, we look at a mobile phone and see that it has systems and patterns working in harmony, We see the same thing in our universe. This indicates a designer.

tbaba1234: Also everything that began to exist has a cause; the universe began to exist, so it has a cause. It goes against everything we know as humans that things just come into existence. It is common sense.

tbaba1234: So what can we conclude about this cause?

tbaba1234: i. The nature of the cause of the universe must be different from the universe because if its nature was the same as the universe, it would be the same as the universe. In other words, it would be more of the same.

tbaba1234: And then we have to ask: What brought that into existence? What caused that? Everything that begins to exist must have a cause, The creator never began to exist. This leads to the absurdity of the infinite regress of causes. The universe must have had a finite start and must therefore have a cause different from it.

We can safely conclude that the cause of the universe must be different from it. The cause of the universe never began to exist therefore it doesn't need a cause itself. The universe is finite, this cause is infinite. This universe is needy, this cause is self-sufficient.

tbaba1234: It is easy to conclude that the cause for this universe must be infinite, self-sufficient, Intelligent, unconfined by space and time (a feature of our universe). One that has will and power. This is the most rational conclusion we can make for the cause of our universe, everything else sounds just crazy. I mean, fairy tale land crazy...

We can only rationally conceive of one such being, There can't be two infinite, self-sufficient, Intelligent powerful beings. There can only be one, if there was two, one will necessarily restrict the power of the other. It is not difficult to see using reason how we can come to believe in one creator of the universe.

This is what most people call God.

tbaba1234: Like i said earlier, the creator of the universe is not bounded by the laws of the universe because He can exist outside it. Time and space are constructs that we understand because we live in the universe.

The absurdity of an infinite regress of causes means there must have been a finite start to the universe. An uncreated Creator.

tbaba1234: Imagine, i asked you to reply after seeking permission from logicboy and logicboy has to seek permission from someone else and this goes on forever.. Would you ever reply? This is the absurdity of an infinite regress..

The fact that we have a universe is evidence for a finite start.

tbaba1234: When you come across such incredible co-incidences, a rational thinking person does not attribute it to chance. Everything is working in a way such that we survive of this earth. I guess there is a chance that the mobile phone in the desert got formed by incidents of random weather conditions too?? Does that sound rational to you...

That is the irrationality of atheist thought. It borders on the level of stupidity.

tbaba1234: It is not a case of we don't know... It is a case of design and causality .. All of which using common sense point to a creator and a designer. It is common sense.

Whether there are other creatures in the universe is irrelevant to this argument, Our solar system moves in particular patterns. A rationally thinking person can only think design.

tbaba1234: I look at road networks and i do not assume it got formed randomly or that i do not know... I know there is a designer.

tbaba1234: Actually, the Quran encourages us to look into the universe, the more we learn about the Universe , the more you would be certain of the existence of a God. That is why early and medevial muslim scholars were also scientists.

tbaba1234: This is a common sense issue. Apply it.

tbaba1234: Look at the human brain... One of the most complicated systems in the world. You look at it and all you see is a designer. The DNA, the weather patterns.. You attribute a mobile phone to design and more complex working designs to chance.

This is the irrationality of atheist thought.

There seems to be a pattern, a system to how every thing works... Applying our common sense, we see that and know it was designed. Everywhere you turn, everything you look at...

Do you know how many diseases your immune system saves you from everyday. you will be dead without one. The white blood cells are affected by food and other habits (alcohol, smoking etc). There are times that they could be down and we need drugs. It does not take away at all from their effectiveness and an indication to design.

This grand conspiracy to keep us alive.

Common sense will not attribute any of these to luck or chance. The odds are too mind-boggling

Otherwise i can attribute anything to chance, I can say you fell out of the sky... At least, there is a chance... It does not matter how ridiculous the odds are.

This is the irrationality of atheism.

tbaba1234: Of course chance... And you fell off the sky... wait, wait, but there is a chance...

tbaba1234: The master-slave illustration was just that (an illustration).. You did not address the point. Arguing from a position of Ignorance is silly.

You see,the main problem with many atheists is not necessary the existence of a God. It is the Idea of being obedient and subservient to that God. It is an arrogant mentality.

tbaba1234: Muslim societies have their challenges today but we see that they were the most progressive in the past particularly when they were ruled with Islam. A myriad of factors, political and social are responsible not necessarily godliness.

And yes, the model of 1400 years worked for centuries and would still work today if properly implemented.

tbaba1234: I did not make any assertion about godliness... I pointed out that the OP's idea of changing the world through godlessness is baseless and is of zero value.

But then again, go ahead with your evangelism.

tbaba1234: First of all, There is no authentic narration of '72 virgins'. Most muslims only hear this stuff from you guys (non-muslims).

I would need physical evidence of your great, great grand father please... say 6 generations back... How do i know you didn't just pop into existence? That is the irrationality of atheistic thought.

It is an excellent analogy.

tbaba1234: The physical evidence of God is all around you.

tbaba1234: we have very good rational reasons to believe that the universe has a creator. We can talk about so many things: the alternation of the night and the day, the various composition of gases, how amazing is it that water floats in its solid state (ICE) , If Ice sunk, life will not exist. The composition of gases in the atmosphere just happen to be right for life to exist, we happen to have the Ozone that filters the harmful rays of the sun, we happen to be just a distance from the sun that allows for life to exist. We happen to rotate on our axis at just the right speed. We have planets near us, whose gravitation force diverts objects from space hitting the earth.

The more you look, the more you see this incredible precision that exists, within our universe. The evidences of design are all around us. The rational conclusion to come to is that there is an intelligent force behind it all. Every grain of sand has a design to it.

A small change and there will be no life.

Do you know the odds for all of these to be be working so that life exists... The odds are mind-blowing!!!

This indicates to any rational thinking person that there is a creator.

tbaba1234: We know the difference between something that is random and something that is purposefully designed. A mobile phone displays the characteristics of design for instance. Now we could come across an object that we have no previous experience of, but we will still recognize the components of design.

We do not attribute a mobile phone to a series of random events....

tbaba1234: The need for Revelation:

If you acknowledge the existence of a God, There are questions we need to ask ourselves:

i. What is the purpose of life? why are we here? What is it all for? Why do we exist??

Not what do you want to do with your life but why do we humans exist? Everything has a purpose, your eyes has a purpose, your nose has a purpose, your mouth, your shoes, your pen.. The earthworm... Everything has a purpose ... So what is the purpose of your existence?

That is a very profound question,

ii. The Question of death, What's going to happen after death? Is there a life after death? Does you energy just merge with that of the universe and you have no existence?
Will you be reincarnated? Or is there a day of judgement? Whatever is going to happen. it will be good to have some information on it , one way or another..

iii. The third Question is the problem of evil.. Why is there so much suffering on earth? ... If there is a God, why is there so much suffering on the earth? Why do all these bad things happen? Now this question does not impinge at all upon the existence of a creator but it begs the question, why? Why does the creator let these things happen? why doesn't the creator stop the evil?

These are three profound questions, many people would ask themselves...
The only way to come to any conclusive answer for these questions is not through speculation, philosophy can never answer these questions, science can never answer these questions.
Why? because this is in the unseen.

It is only through revelation. The revelation itself must show pointers to the divine.

There is a need for revelation because we have some profound questions about our existence and there are compelling reasons for us to understand that we need those answers.We look at our lives as humans and we have many needs... emotional and physical needs... In this world, we have all the means for all those needs to be met. Hunger -food, thirst- water etc..

Wouldn't it be rational to assume that the creator who has provided the means to fulfill all of our needs has also provided answers to these important questions.

And like i said earlier, the only way you can reach certainty is if God provides those answers, everything else will be speculation.

tbaba1234: There are no easy ways to carry out a death sentence but some crimes are deserving of it when proven beyond reasonable doubt ... Do you know many volts is passed through the body of a person electrocuted? Are you kidding me?

And lethal injections are far from painless. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7269-execution-by-injection-far-from-painless.html

Let me not go into hanging... gas chamber?... There are no easy ways to kill a person.... Secular societies have no moral ground to stand on here.

Besides in the first 1000 years of Islam.. only 3 people were stoned... These were people that confessed on their own and refused to withdraw their testimony so the punishment had to be carried out. The burden of proof is often impossible. How many people are on death role in the US alone??

Now tell me who is barbaric? just look at the numbers..

tbaba1234: All humans have an inherent goodness, God placed an inherent goodness in Humans.. In Islam, it is called the fitrah. Some people choke it to death. Other get it twisted. We all do some form of good. However, in the absence of God, there is no objective criterion for goodness and morality. Hitler probably felt he was doing good by exterminating Jews. In the 70s, homosexuality was unacceptable in some societies, today it is acceptable.

In the absence of God, social consensus and biological necessities are the only other alternatives. Therefore, if a society says it is good to kill blacks, then it is good .

Also, If God created you and all that exists in the universe, do you think, he owes you an explanation for everything?

Imagine you are a slave and you have a master who owns you.... DO you think he owes you explanations for what he does?

Infact, anything he explains to you is an act of mercy to you.....

Your relationship with a creator is similar to that of a master-slave. He owns you!!

tbaba1234: Now whilst coming to the knowledge of the existence of God should involve deep thought and logical analysis.

Once you are intellectually convinced, asking those kinds of questions is a show of arrogance and an argument from ignorance. Your knowledge or wisdon cannot be compared to one who created all.

tbaba1234: Africa was a victim of exploitation of her resources and destruction of her heritage through colonization. Many of her current problems do have its roots there.

1/3 of the US adult are obese: http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

I have benefited from the west but i also see the ills. It hurts me to see so much wealth in the US and yet see so much poverty. Something is wrong with a system where there are multi billionaires whilst some people work 3 jobs and still find it hard to get by.

The greed is suffocating. Pharmaceutical companies are making obscene profit by selling drugs at ridiculous prices.. Research is driven by greed not for actual societal benefit.

tbaba1234: The Zakat is not just about giving charity... It is an organised system that ensures that wealth is re-distributed and the poorest in the society become wealth creators.

In a true Islamic state, the Zakat is a means of wealth redistribution

Affiliated: Hahahaha. Lol at your personal text. The thing tire me sef. I was just weak and didn't know how to respond again

tbaba1234: I would argue that i have far better reasons to believe in a creator and my religion than to believe in your irreligiousity. Do you require physical evidence for the existence of your ancestry? The fact that you are here points to the fact that you had a great, great grand father. The same goes for our belief in God, the pointers for a muslim are all of existence and the inimitability of the Quranic scripture. Everything around us points to a superior intelligence, a God.

tbaba1234: Is stoning more draconian than electrocuting a human being or hanging or lethal injection practised in secular countries? Assume for a second,there is a God that created the whole of the universe, Most of which (the universe) we have no clue about... Do you think you can limit that kind of wisdom and intelligence to your brain? Who is in a better position to determine what is irrational...

tbaba1234: With all due respect, i do feel that the disbelief in a God is the height of irrationality....

tbaba1234: Even if no religion existed , Do you think the world will be a better place? Man would still fight for resources, There will still be greed. We will still kill each other as evidenced by many, many wars in history that have nothing to do with religion. Do you know how many people were killed, maimed and tortured during the cold war? A war between two secular ideologies?

tbaba1234: You talk about an irrational core? Do you care to point that out?

tbaba1234: The disease of secular capitalist societies is why 10 million people are dying of obesity in the US while children in Africa are dying of starvation... Not enough food... That is why the wealth of the US is concentrated in the top 1%. People still live in abject poverty, struggling to live in the same country.

tbaba1234: It is not because of a lack of resources, according to the FAO, there is enough food on this planet to feed 3 planets... The problem is distribution of wealth. Islam proposed a solution to this more than 1400 years ago. A solution that has been successful in past Islamic empires and dynasties. The institution of Zakat. You might want to read up on the Caliph Umar ibn abdul aziz.

tbaba1234: Like i said before, if you want to make the world a better place, build hospitals and clinics, help a person in need without seeking reward. Godlessness is not your solution.

BERNIMOORE: @ Affiliated
claiming undeserved credit that is also unproven is 'stealing' dont let me accuse you of stealing;


the term reffered to as 'science' is invented by someone or some group of people, while the bible discovery precceeds that with solid proofs as shown above until proven otherwise legitimately,

tbaba1234: I also see the destruction done by secular countries in Iraq and Afghanistan so on... E.t.c... The Iraq war was probably the easiest marketing tool for extreme groups... I have a american iraqi brother whose uncle was killed by US troops on the street. He was not a combatant. He was born in the country that killed his uncle.

In promoting their secular Ideas, there is no family in Iraq that has not been touched by their destruction. I have another Iraqi friend who can't even bring himself to talk about the Iraqi invasion. Look at what happened in falluja. In a just world, George Bush and the US Army would be facing a war crimes tribunal.

Invasion of muslim countries, drone attacks on villages etc have done more than it's fair share in building these groups you complain about and the resentment amongst muslims that they need.

You fail to quote the ayah before.

Fight in God’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits:c God does not love those who overstep the limits (Surah 2:190)

Clearly, the discussion is clearly about those who fight you.... There is also a warning not to overstep the limits. This can be understood by any anyone.

Sometimes what you need to do is give a dog a 'bad name' and no one asks questions: call them insurgents and terrorists. No one asks any question after that.

tbaba1234: This is a funny thread.

It marvels me when atheists claim they are not a 'religious' movement. You see, the first post shows that atheists are willing to spread their ideas as much as other religious ideologies. As a convinced muslim, i want to educate people about the beauty of Islam (both muslims and non-muslims) and why it just makes sense.

It seems the atheist isn't any different. He is convinced of his views and feels he needs to get the message across inspite of what he considers environmental challenges.

I agree with inurmind, you see debates on Nairaland are usually about ego. The atheists and theists are guilty of it. Private discussions are usually more honest. No-one wants to learn or bulge. It takes a certain degree of honesty and humility to accept the truth even if it is against you.

Personally, I am both intellectually and emotionally convinced about Islam. I do have a similar goal to share my limited knowledge with Nigerian muslims and make our community a better one Insha Allah (God-willing).

There are many better ways of making the world a better place than promoting godlessness.


Safe.

toba: Apologies to Goshen Mazaje and co.
Good boy. U are gradually coming up. Can u now see the reason why i've refrained myself from answering ur questions? Judging by the number of times u've mentioned the word mor.on, it only shows that u may be one urself. Also u did admitted to seldom being one. Any need to continue with you? You're a liar. I didnt use insulting word that directly depicts abuse like name calling, but you did first. Never. Im only giving u the benefit of a doubt that you really deserve to be responded to. Maybe because you need to work on ur comprehension skills. anything wrong with ur a$$? You posited above that if there's a need to respond to a mor.on. You also confirmed being one and have indeed acted like one thus far, why should i respond to a mor.on? If u give a convincing response, i may decide to respond.


I've seen it. its my post. I dont get why u quoted it in the first place. seems u're running out of gas.


ok. Thks for the complement


yes it is.


I see. I have the right to my choice of word provided its within the confinement of the forum rules. Pathetic in my post is an emotional word which has to do with feelings and not a direct insult at anyone. Guy are u this dumb? can u compare that with ur choice of words? SMH seriously.

No. Im not posting Nonsense and havent posted nonsense. It may be easy for a mor.on to mix things up. isnt it?


This is called trolling. I believe it takes an a$$ to recognise an a$$.

Yes. ignorance and frustration leads people to atheism. This is a direct response to the OP. I've heard testimonies of ex atheists and this is one of the reasons that led them into Atheism. still trolling. You could have ignored it. or do u respond to every post u read on NL? You probably wanted my attention, hence responding to my post.

well thats ur biz. I care less if u are an atheist or not. its a matter of choice. 'how do people become atheist' my response ignorance and frustration leads to atheism. simple.

frustration on display again. You'll realize that u are agitated and it only shows how frustrated you are. I'll do my best to be civil in my response to you. You're trolling and seeking my attention. Dont worry, for as long as u want my attention by responding to my post, i'll indulge you.

Happy sunday.

More?

LemonBoy1: The Holy Bible talk about God bt atheist don't believe in God so its entirely unwise for a xtain to base his arguments on biblical references. Bt i hv a question 4 d atheists: pls how did earth nd all of its likes came to exist? I nid ur enlightenment on this

musKeeto: Lolz, consider doing same in Naija.. Cows could become extinct. I think faith in humanity's limited to environment and neighbors.. I'm what I'm because of who we are?

Lol @ religions in Xtianity... Not religions, just different ways of life... Jesus would be wondering along with His dad if their special https protocol aka the Holy Spirit, has been hacked...

musKeeto: Lolz, consider doing same in Naija.. Cows could become extinct. I think faith in humanity's limited to environment and neighbors.. I'm what I'm because of who we are?

musKeeto: Lol @ religions in Xtianity... Not religions, just different ways of life... Jesus would be wondering along with His dad if their special https protocol aka the Holy Spirit, has been hacked...

Goshen360: I don't know what you and my brother musKeeto wants to hear. Are you guys not getting my gist? There're two definitions to slaves or kinds of slaves in the bible. Do we, Christians still fight physical war today? The slave in the Old Testament was a "Captive" Slave that existed by war captives. The NT slaves is "Subjective" by the will of a person to a master. In fact, the OT also taught that "captive" slaves should be treated fairly.

musKeeto: Straight answer: No.

Like some other poster (I refrain from using 'moronic' ) on that amazing coogar thread, it only regulated it, never endorsed it.. Laughable...

Imagine jega saying Inec only regulates elections, but doesn't endorse them..

Goshen360: I believed in the God that showed me redemptive plans. He had shown it in shadows and fulfilled the reality. What else you wanna hear?

toba: great I'm happy for you.
Na. u weren't ready for a serious discourse and im not sure u are ready now. See my responses thus far to Logicboy and MMW. are they not civil? If u can do likewise and stop the rhetorical questions, fine with me.

toba: Mbanu. your antecedents says it all. Ur response to be at first may be considered a rhetorical question, which shows ur unseriousness on this thread. started it and u're getting it in return.

toba: You're the troll. Remember i made a comment, which wasnt for you. What did u do? u quoted my post and then started exhibiting childishness. I didnt quote u first, but u quoted me. You are the troll.

toba: You're correct young lady.

atleast having been here for about 6 years, I've come to realize this.

pathetic

bella: People become atheists because they want to feel smarter.
Trust me it has something to do with esteem issues.


P.S: Only a small percent of 'em are actually honest in their unbelief!

toba: ignorance and frustration

toba: Of course im not a 4king ret.ard. Are u a 4king ret.ard? yes i agree. what if i chose not to insult anymore, how does it affect your life?

TOBA You have the right to do that because you've been here 6 years?Nope. Even if i've been here for a decade, i can do whatever pleases me provided its within the confinement of the forum rules. do you get that? Is that some sort of serious accomplishment in your village or something? Well, it depends on how u look at it. Some of u guys actually troll this section more than i do in the last couple of months, trying to justify ur belief over that of others no? If you can't take the heat, don't bring it. I reserve the right to do as i please. Now i dont want to go that line. Who knows, maybe tomorrow i may also change. does it bother you?


And simple, simple things have to be explained to you. Like what and what, mr 'know it all'?

I know, you're an a$$, are u an a$$?

but still. still what? For instance, you dare me to a challenge, wtf do you think I am doing now?? seriously are u asking me this? smh. U are just chasing shadows and doing nothing. U may choose to explain what exactly u think you're doing or what u believe you've done so far?



As to whether I am a mor.on, I definitely am when it comes to some tasks, but in the issues we're dealing with here, next to me, you really are a donkey.
great. do u think its a nice idea discussing with a mor.on?


As in really, even simple things you fail to grasp. Like what?


Answer the question, is that your enlightened opinion or not, wise a$$? (a$$ as in donkey, don't be offended) are u ready to ans some of my own questns so it wouldnt be a one way affair? FYI, im not offended. Just ride for as long as u can go.

whitefairy: Can't pple just argue constructively without insults?mtcheew.
Adjusts my duvet n starts snoring....

toba: No i didn't.

Not exactly. It just doesnt show u as a serious person. I dont want to go raw like u are.

yea. an imbe.cile would be in a good position to respond to ur question. BTW are u an imbe.cile?



Read what?

are u trying to describe yourself?

how can u confirm ur suspicion?

You're the one that can understand what u're doing. May be u can explain to me what u are doing

toba: sign of frustration.

I love challenges and i've dealt with more reasonable atheists on NL in the past before this section became infiltrated with ur likes. Since you've got nothing to offer, sheath your hands from the keyboard and take a rest.

when you've returned to normalcy, give me an invite for a debate (thats if u have the balls)

I repeat, Most of u atheists on Nairaland have got nothing to offer. I dare you.

I love 'pound for pound' in a civil manner. Only cowards use insult and name calling to make a point

toba: Really? coming from someone who also does samething he's accusing another person of doing. what morals can we learn from you mr atheist?