[quote author=Goshen360]Here comes my sincere heart to my dearest brother Frosbel in your recent fight against the Holy Spirit. I believe we should be silent on issue of the Kingdom we don't fully comprehend yet. It's not everything topic of the Bible I understand myself but certainly not like that Trinity.

It is true and fact that the word "Trinity" doesn't occur in the bible but it is a word used to explain the concept of The father, Son and Holy Spirit being called God and these three are distinct but one in unity and purpose of redemption.

To say that the Holy Spirit don't exist is great error

All I have seen you believe in rescent time is that, God have a bodily form which makes him have a spirit

and therefore there is nothing like the Holy Spirit but the spirit of God because God, the Father has a bodily form. Now, if the Father is called God, the Son is called God and the Holy Spirit is called God, what then is hard to comprehend about Trinity? I don't see anything difficult therein.

The bible teaches that God is Spirit and if a Spirit CANNOT have or possess another Spirit, it will therefore mean that Holy Spirit exist on its own as a distinct being.

My heart goes out to you brother Frosbel to please take more time to study the concept of Trinity. If you don't fully comprehend it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

What you end up doing with this new fight against the reality of the Holy Spirit is to divide the body and also attempt to put the Holy Spirit into extinction which is dangerous.

I can understand the teaching of Trinity is confusing as some teachers make it look but it is not when we actually take time with the one who inspires the word of God, then we get a better understanding. I hope this helps. Thank you and God bless you.

[quote author=Goshen360]Here comes my sincere heart to my dearest brother Frosbel in your recent fight against the Holy Spirit. I believe we should be silent on issue of the Kingdom we don't fully comprehend yet. It's not everything topic of the Bible I understand myself but certainly not like that Trinity.

It is true and fact that the word "Trinity" doesn't occur in the bible but it is a word used to explain the concept of The father, Son and Holy Spirit being called God and these three are distinct but one in unity and purpose of redemption.

To say that the Holy Spirit don't exist is great error

All I have seen you believe in rescent time is that, God have a bodily form which makes him have a spirit

and therefore there is nothing like the Holy Spirit but the spirit of God because God, the Father has a bodily form. Now, if the Father is called God, the Son is called God and the Holy Spirit is called God, what then is hard to comprehend about Trinity? I don't see anything difficult therein.

The bible teaches that God is Spirit and if a Spirit CANNOT have or possess another Spirit, it will therefore mean that Holy Spirit exist on its own as a distinct being.

My heart goes out to you brother Frosbel to please take more time to study the concept of Trinity. If you don't fully comprehend it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

What you end up doing with this new fight against the reality of the Holy Spirit is to divide the body and also attempt to put the Holy Spirit into extinction which is dangerous.

I can understand the teaching of Trinity is confusing as some teachers make it look but it is not when we actually take time with the one who inspires the word of God, then we get a better understanding. I hope this helps. Thank you and God bless you.

The Shema says, "the LORD our God, the LORD is one." In this passage, Jesus quotes the Shema. And then the scribe responds by saying, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he." Jesus responds to him by saying he spoke wisely.

In the doctrine of the Trinity, the oneness of God is a oneness of divine substance. The doctrine indicates that three persons all have this one divine substance and it is this one divine substance they call "God." So the statement, "the Lord our God the Lord is one" can only mean "one divine substance," or "one what." God is one "what."

But here in Mark 12, we can clearly see that the word "one" in the Shema is intended to mean "there is no other but He." Quite clearly, the scribe is referring to personal identity, a who, and not nature, a what, "there is no other but He." Notice also that the scribe is referring to God as "He." We also later find the Jews confessing the Father is their one God (Jn 8:41). The language in Mark is quite similar to Deuteronomy 32:39 where Yahweh God says there is no God besides Him. And when we check to see who is speaking in that verse, we find in in verse 32:6 that it is Yahweh identifying himself as the Father of the Israelites.


Who did Jesus have in mind?

We really know who these two Jews had in mind and to argue it was a Triune being is ridiculous. Indeed we read that the Jews say to Jesus in John 8, "we have one father: God."

Now here is the critical question. Just who did Jesus have in mind when HE said the Shema. When Jesus prayed the words, "the LORD our God, the LORD is one," was he referring to his Father alone? Or did he have a three person God in mind? Was he actually thinking, "the LORD our (Triune God), the LORD is one (substance)" The proposition is really quite absurd when you think about it.

Also very carefully notice he says, "OUR God." As a faithful Jew, Jesus served his God and Father. His God is also our God. As he later said, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Even further can anyone say this "He" in this verse is Jesus? NO! Because if anyone says the HE in this verse is Jesus it would exclude the Father. The only option then is to claim the HE is the Triune being. However, the problem still remains. Is Jesus the Triune being? NO! By definition in the doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus cannot be the one God being discussed. So if he is not the one God being discussed he is not the one God and if he is not the one God to claim he is God is to claim he is another God than the God being discussed.


The Impossibility of the "HE" being a Triune God

It is plainly obvious, among Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians alike, that Jesus' God was his Father alone. Jesus was referring to HIS God. In fact, Jesus' God is identified as the God of the Lord. Jesus' God was not a Trinity. HIS God was not a Triune being. It is quite impossible for Jesus to be referring to HIS God as a Trinity, a Triune being. Jesus agrees that the words, "there is no other but HE," a quotation from Deuteronomy, interpret what the Shema means. "The LORD is one" means there is one HE and there is no other but this one HE. Jesus was a Jew born under the Law. He was obligated to keep the Law and serve the God of Israel, HIS God. When this twenty year old Jew, Jesus, read the words "there is no other but HE", that HE was necessarily Jesus' Father alone and it is impossbile to claim otherwise since Jesus' God is not a Triune being. Hence, that HE in Mark 12:32 is God the Father. And if Jesus agrees there is no other but God the Father this fact does by necessity exclude everyone else, including himself, from identity as YAHWEH, the God of Israel. The Trinitarian claim that the HE of Mark 12:32 is the Triune God an certain impossiblity since Jesus is referring to HIS God and HIS God was not a Triune God.

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Mk12.html

Goshen360: My brother Frosbel,

What I witnessed you saying and responding in other threads is that, Holy Spirit is God's Spirit because God has a BODILY FORM. Hence the Holy Spirit is NOT distinct from God. Is that not what you are saying?

At times the claims of Trinitarian apologists are downright ridiculous.

How many times have you heard a Trinitarian claim the Magi bowed down before baby Jesus because they knew he was God? How many times have you heard them claim that nobody would do such a thing unless he was indeed God? How many times have you wondered if they bowed down before him simply because he was the King of the Jews? And have you ever wondered if they, and even the Jewish people themselves, considered it appropriate to bow down before a King? Do Trinitarians really expect us to believe the Jews did not know anything about a three person God because God had not yet "fully revealed himself" but the pagan Magi were well aware that Jesus was God?

And when Mary his mother changed baby Jesus' diapers did she really think she was changing God's diapers? Or was Jesus' own mother not privy to the same insight as the Trinitarians? The Bible says Jesus was subject to Joseph and Mary. It must have been quite difficult for them to have such authority over God. "God, go to your room!" And are we really to believe that Joseph was guarding God from Herod when he fled to Egypt with little Jesus? And when Joseph and Mary realized they had lost Jesus on their trip home from Jerusalem, are we really to believe they were worried they had inadvertently left God behind? And what was God doing growing in wisdom and favor with God and men anyway?

Are we really to accept the Trinitarian translation of Hebrews 1:8, "To the Son he says, 'Your throne O God is forever and ever" and blindly fail to notice the very next verse would then refer to God's God? Are we really supposed to be completely blind to the fact that this would have God the Father speaking to God the Son and reminding God the Son that he has a God? Are we really to accept the Trinitarian "only begotten God" manuscript variant of John 1:18 when it says this only begotten God reveals God the Father who happens to be the unbegotten God? Are we really supposed to stick our tongue in cheek and not see that this would result in a begotten God revealing an unbegotten God. That would be two Gods, one begotten and one not. How many doses of denial do they expect us to take?

Are we really to pretend Jesus was omniscient, all knowing, when we are told that he increased in wisdom? Are we really supposed to believe this preposterous claim when Jesus himself said only the Father knew the day and hour of his return? Did the word "only" lose its meaning last night? Just to what extent to Trinitarians expect us to deceive ourselves?

And when Trinitarians respond to John 20:17 by pointing out that Jesus said, "My God and your God" but did not say "My God and our God," just what exactly are they suggesting? That Jesus' God is a different God than our God? What difference would it make? Isn't "My God and Your God" simply an emphatic way of saying "Our God?" And if you only believe in one God then there is no difference in the identity of "My God" and "your God" is there? Or perhaps their entire goal was to confuse the issue to avoid the implications of Jesus words? After all, he is saying that our God is the same God as his God. Who was his God? Just what are Trinitarian apologists trying to do here?

frosbel:

But how can God be in a bodily form when he is a Spirit

I think we should end this matter, let God witness to the hearts of the faithful about the truth.

At times the claims of Trinitarian apologists are downright ridiculous.

How many times have you heard a Trinitarian claim the Magi bowed down before baby Jesus because they knew he was God? How many times have you heard them claim that nobody would do such a thing unless he was indeed God? How many times have you wondered if they bowed down before him simply because he was the King of the Jews? And have you ever wondered if they, and even the Jewish people themselves, considered it appropriate to bow down before a King? Do Trinitarians really expect us to believe the Jews did not know anything about a three person God because God had not yet "fully revealed himself" but the pagan Magi were well aware that Jesus was God?

And when Mary his mother changed baby Jesus' diapers did she really think she was changing God's diapers? Or was Jesus' own mother not privy to the same insight as the Trinitarians? The Bible says Jesus was subject to Joseph and Mary. It must have been quite difficult for them to have such authority over God. "God, go to your room!" And are we really to believe that Joseph was guarding God from Herod when he fled to Egypt with little Jesus? And when Joseph and Mary realized they had lost Jesus on their trip home from Jerusalem, are we really to believe they were worried they had inadvertently left God behind? And what was God doing growing in wisdom and favor with God and men anyway?

Are we really to accept the Trinitarian translation of Hebrews 1:8, "To the Son he says, 'Your throne O God is forever and ever" and blindly fail to notice the very next verse would then refer to God's God? Are we really supposed to be completely blind to the fact that this would have God the Father speaking to God the Son and reminding God the Son that he has a God? Are we really to accept the Trinitarian "only begotten God" manuscript variant of John 1:18 when it says this only begotten God reveals God the Father who happens to be the unbegotten God? Are we really supposed to stick our tongue in cheek and not see that this would result in a begotten God revealing an unbegotten God. That would be two Gods, one begotten and one not. How many doses of denial do they expect us to take?

Are we really to pretend Jesus was omniscient, all knowing, when we are told that he increased in wisdom? Are we really supposed to believe this preposterous claim when Jesus himself said only the Father knew the day and hour of his return? Did the word "only" lose its meaning last night? Just to what extent to Trinitarians expect us to deceive ourselves?

And when Trinitarians respond to John 20:17 by pointing out that Jesus said, "My God and your God" but did not say "My God and our God," just what exactly are they suggesting? That Jesus' God is a different God than our God? What difference would it make? Isn't "My God and Your God" simply an emphatic way of saying "Our God?" And if you only believe in one God then there is no difference in the identity of "My God" and "your God" is there? Or perhaps their entire goal was to confuse the issue to avoid the implications of Jesus words? After all, he is saying that our God is the same God as his God. Who was his God? Just what are Trinitarian apologists trying to do here?

frosbel: An Appeal to Trinitarians from gospel truth

As a former Trinitarian of many years, I would like to make an appeal to Trinitarians regarding personal integrity. Is your creedal tradition more important to you than the facts and the truth? It is obvious to me, and should be obvious to you, precisely WHO Jesus and this Jewish scribe are talking about: God the Father. The Scriptural evidence is crystal clear and tells us quite plainly that the "HE" in question is the Father, He who spoke out of the fire to Israel and promised to raise up the prophet Jesus, His servant and His Son. And this fact demonstrates that the God of Jesus is the God of Israel, and is the God of Christians, the Father alone, "there is no other but HE." Seek not the approval of men but the approval of God.

[quote author=Goshen360]

Maybe I'm not a FULL Trinitarian.

What I believe from the word of God is that, the Father being referred to as the "THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE"

But my understand is since the Bible also calls the Son God

and the Holy Spirit also God

then I have no problem with that and that is where my believe in Trinity stand and these three is ONE or in Unity is terms of purpose and redemption. I rather hold on to the truth rather than traditions as you called us/me unto. I pray God help us all.

Goshen360: Okay.....you have always know me for the truth. Okay. We don't have problem with the Father being called God right

Okay, let's where the bible calls the Son God.....

What do you think of this scripture:

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28 Kjv

How do you see this?

frosbel:

My Lord Jesus Christ

My God - Yahweh

Goshen360:

Too late to start typing essays , but please read the comment below and follow the link.

Good night and God bless.

Brother Frosbel......was Jesus called God in this verse or NOT? Yes or NO? Don't start game with me now....Am just starting here....I will show you and truthislight that is doing gra-gra on the other thread that the bible also calls the Holy Spirit God.......Answer my first kweshion first: Was Jesus called God in this verse or NOT?

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (KJV)

1. Jesus never referred to himself as “God” in the absolute sense, so what precedent then did Thomas have for calling Jesus “my God”? The Greek language uses the word theos, (“God” or “god”) with a broader meaning than is customary today. In the Greek language and in the culture of the day, “GOD” (all early manuscripts of the Bible were written in all capital letters) was a descriptive title applied to a range of authorities, including the Roman governor (Acts 12:22), and even the Devil (2 Cor. 4:4). It was used of someone with divine authority. It was not limited to its absolute sense as a personal name for the supreme Deity as we use it today.

2. Given the language of the time, and given that Jesus did represent the Father and have divine authority, the expression used by Thomas is certainly understandable. On the other hand, to make Thomas say that Jesus was “God,” and thus 1/3 of a triune God, seems incredible. In Concessions of Trinitarians, Michaelis, a Trinitarian, writes:

I do not affirm that Thomas passed all at once from the extreme of doubt to the highest degree of faith, and acknowledged Christ to be the true God. This appears to me too much for the then existing knowledge of the disciples; and we have no intimation that they recognized the divine nature of Christ before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I am therefore inclined to understand this expression, which broke out in the height of his astonishment, in a figurative sense, denoting only “whom I shall ever reverence in the highest degree”…Or a person raised from the dead might be regarded as a divinity; for the word God is not always used in the strict doctrinal sense” [Michaelis is quoted by Dana, ref. below].

Remember that it was common at that time to call God’s representatives “God,” and the Old Testament contains quite a few examples. When Jacob wrestled with “God,” it is clear that he was actually wrestling with an angel (Hosea 12:4—For more on that, see the note on Genesis 16:7-13).

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/john-20-28

Goshen360:

Brother Frosbel......was Jesus called God in this verse or NOT? Yes or NO? Don't start game with me now....Am just starting here....I will show you and truthislight that is doing gra-gra on the other thread that the bible also calls the Holy Spirit God.......Answer my first kweshion first: Was Jesus called God in this verse or NOT?

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

1. Jesus never referred to himself as “God” in the absolute sense, so what precedent then did Thomas have for calling Jesus “my God”? The Greek language uses the word theos, (“God” or “god”) with a broader meaning than is customary today. In the Greek language and in the culture of the day, “GOD” (all early manuscripts of the Bible were written in all capital letters) was a descriptive title applied to a range of authorities, including the Roman governor (Acts 12:22), and even the Devil (2 Cor. 4:4). It was used of someone with divine authority. It was not limited to its absolute sense as a personal name for the supreme Deity as we use it today.

2. Given the language of the time, and given that Jesus did represent the Father and have divine authority, the expression used by Thomas is certainly understandable. On the other hand, to make Thomas say that Jesus was “God,” and thus 1/3 of a triune God, seems incredible. In Concessions of Trinitarians, Michaelis, a Trinitarian, writes:

I do not affirm that Thomas passed all at once from the extreme of doubt to the highest degree of faith, and acknowledged Christ to be the true God. This appears to me too much for the then existing knowledge of the disciples; and we have no intimation that they recognized the divine nature of Christ before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I am therefore inclined to understand this expression, which broke out in the height of his astonishment, in a figurative sense, denoting only “whom I shall ever reverence in the highest degree”…Or a person raised from the dead might be regarded as a divinity; for the word God is not always used in the strict doctrinal sense”

Remember that it was common at that time to call God’s representatives “God,” and the Old Testament contains quite a few examples. When Jacob wrestled with “God,” it is clear that he was actually wrestling with an angel (Hosea 12:4—For more on that, see the note on Genesis 16:7-13).

Read the rest here http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/john-20-28

frosbel: I will keep fighting against the TRINITY.

tevinsolt:

because u are not a true believer in christ, historical evidence shows clearly that the apostles believed he was God your here 2000+ years later saying you will keep fighting against trinity.....what makes you different from Muhammadians?

tevinsolt:

because u are not a true believer in christ, historical evidence
shows clearly that the apostles believed he was God your here 2000+ years later saying you will keep fighting against trinity.....what makes you different from Muhammadians?

frosbel:

show me where the apostles thought Jesus was GOD.

Just 2 verses should suffice.

Let me show you 2 of mine with more to come if you want.

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ - Romans 5:17



"Brothers, listen! We are here to proclaim that through this man Jesus there is forgiveness for your sins - Acts 13:8

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus - 1 Timothy 2:5

tevinsolt:

1. The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.

The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.

2 Peter 1:1: “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ”

3 The Apostle Paul called Jesus God.

Titus 2:12b-14: “...we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.”

tevinsolt: 11. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.

Mark 2:5-7, 10-11: “When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.” And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” “...But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”--He said to the paralytic, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go your way to your house.”

12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.

John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.”

13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.

Matthew 14:32-33: “And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.” (also see Matthew 28:9, 17, John 9:37-38)

Revelation 5:13: “And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Hebrews 1:6: “But when He again brings the firstborn [JESUS] into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Jesus never rebuked any of His followers for worshiping Him and yet worship of anything or anyone other than God is absolutely forbidden in the Bible . . .

Luke 4:8: “And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”

tevinsolt:

because u are not a true believer in christ, historical evidence shows clearly that the apostles believed he was God your here 2000+ years later saying you will keep fighting against trinity.....what makes you different from Muhammadians?