aletheia:


What are you? I doubt if you understand even the meaning of your own words. . .it seems to me you are only regurgitating that which you learned by rote.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God in the flesh.

God cannot be seen.......no one can see God and yet live...have u forgotten??

People saw Jesus.....that is enough evidence to show Jesus wasn't God but a representative of God.....

Has d trinity dulled y'all senses??...

Jesus died.....does God or can God die??

This is absurdity @ its peak......

Jesus is Yahwehs representative and son of the most high.......

That's what angel gabriel told mary she'll give birth to...

Shikena...

haibe:

Flesh and blood you say, how are you So sure the spiritual body has blood?
. Flesh and blood used in that context by apostle paul was to mean our corrupt earthly body, not a spiritual one which christ ressurected with. Infact apostle paul made it clear that saints will put off the corrupt body and put on incorrupt body, thats it, jesus resurrected bodily, not in the spirit as you think. I know different attempts have been made by JWs to equate Jesus with an angel but that will only trick the little ones which has been tricked

"Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit. " - 1Peter 3:18 (New English Translation)

haibe, can you please answer the following two questions:

1. Was Jesus put to death in the flesh?

2. Was Jesus made alive in the spirit?

ijawkid:

Ressurected persons who will live in heaven do not need to eat,just as angels don't too....

But when necessary they can materialize and do that.....I already gave examples....angels ate bread with abraham.....if need be they materialize to do that....that's d point......

1 peter 3:18:::::::is clear on this issue.....

It isn't talking about Jesus been created....its talking about his been ressurected....

We are on the ressurection issue my bro.....

Ok try explaining this point....

""Jesus was put to death in the flesh(body),but raised up in the spirit'""

That verse is so crystal clear....

Jesus died fleshly,but was raised up unfleshly(in the spirit).......

Flesh can't stay in heaven,only spirits can......

Jesus culd materialize and de-materialize for him to pass thru a locked room....

Frosbel has anytin like that happened amongsts mortals before??

You're dodging my questions.I want you to back your claim with a bible verse showing that Jesus (as) could appear and disappear as angels do.this christian claim of Jesus (as) materializing and dematerializing is the same as the christian claim that Jesus (as) pre-existed somewhere in heaven before he was born by Mary (as)-there is no scriptural basis.

I can understand angels coming to earth in the form of a man and eating to diffuse attention.but what was Jesus (as) proving when he asked his disciples to touch him and feel him and he then ate fish and honeycomb? Was that to prove he was resurrected (I.e. a spirit) or not resurrected?

Another point is on paradise.if we resurrect and spiritualize and we would die no more,would there still be any reason or excuse for a spirit to eat? I don't think so.but this is what we read in the bible of Jesus (as) promising his disciples:

DRINKING IN THE BIBLICAL PARADISE

Matthew 26:29
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

EATING BREAD IN PARADISE

Luke 14:15
15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”

aletheia: 2. Jesus claimed equality with the Father.

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.(Joh 5:17-18)

The Jews were angry because of Jesus' violation of the Sabbath, but they were furious when he was so presumptuous as to claim equality with the Father - the implication of his words My Father worketh hitherto, and I work, an implication that is clear to John the writer of the gospel who adds this but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Jesus distinctly says "My Father" (ho pater mou). Not "our father", a claim to a peculiar relation to the Father. Worketh hitherto (heos arti ergazetai). . .Jesus put himself on a par with God's activity and thus justifies his healing on the Sabbath.

It is also noteworthy that the Jews did not refer to God as "My Father". If they did, they would qualify the statement with "in heaven". This Jesus did not do. He made a claim that the Jews could not misinterpret when he called God "My Father". His claim was to a unique relationship with God as His Father. Just as a human father's son must be fully human, God's Son must be fully God. All that the Father is, the Son is.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (Joh 5:26)

Jesus never claimed equality with God, rather, it was the unbelieving Jews who falsely accused him of claiming equality with his father. At John 14:28 he openly declared that his father is greater than him. Of course, everyone would expect the father to be greater than his son.

aletheia, your last paragraph has brought to my mind the following scripture:

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ” -John 20:17 (NKJV)

Considering your analogy, can we also say that Mary Magdalen is fully God? Or that other disciples are fully God? If no, why?

Jesus even added Something very interesting: "my God and your God", hmmmm!

LagosShia:

You're dodging my questions.I want you to back your claim with a bible verse showing that Jesus (as) could appear and disappear as angels do.this christian claim of Jesus (as) materializing and dematerializing is the same as the christian claim that Jesus (as) pre-existed somewhere in heaven before he was born by Mary (as)-there is no scriptural basis.

I can understand angels coming to earth in the form of a man and eating to diffuse attention.but what was Jesus (as) proving when he asked his disciples to touch him and feel him and he then ate fish and honeycomb? Was that to prove he was resurrected (I.e. a spirit) or not resurrected?

Another point is on paradise.if we resurrect and spiritualize and we would die no more,would there still be any reason or excuse for a spirit to eat? I don't think so.but this is what we read in the bible of Jesus (as) promising his disciples:

DRINKING IN THE BIBLICAL PARADISE

Matthew 26:29
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

EATING BREAD IN PARADISE

Luke 14:15
15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”

Ok my lagosia bro..

Jesus indeed did pre-exist b4 his coming to the earth.....he was from heaven bro...

John 3:13.......
New International Version (©1984)
No one has ever gone into heaven except the
one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
...

Let's see other scriptures...

John 6:38

New International Version (©1984)
For I have come down from heaven not to do
my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
.....

U culd ask urself if Jesus ate and drank while in heaven b4 he came to the earth.....

And 1 more scripture.....john 6:62

English Standard Version (©2001)
Then what if you were to see the Son of Man
ascending to where he was before?
.....

Questions for u mr lagosia...

Did Jesus exist in heaven b4 he came to the earth??

John 6:62 succinctly tells us that Jesus did indeed ascend back to where he was b4...

If Jesus was a ""spirit"" in heaven b4 Yahweh made it possible for his life to be transffered to mary's womb to be born as a man(flesh),why shuld Jesus go back to where he came from with flesh??.....

Was he flesh in heaven b4 descending to earth??

frosbel:
Jesus Christ was the anointed of GOD , not God in the flesh.

On this point do Jews, Muslims and Frosbel stumble.

a. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
(Mat 4:10)
b. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (Joh 9:38)
c. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (Joh 20:28)
d. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. (Mat 28:17)
Of course the staggering import of Thomas' words to Jesus escapes you!
Even some who beheld Him in the flesh doubted so not surprising if you several generations removed will doubt.

To those who doubted like Thomas. . .Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (Joh 20:29)

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God in the flesh.

This is a true saying affirmed and upheld by scripture:
(1Ti 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The words written in 1 Timothy God was manifest in the flesh stand in stark relief and are opposite to your Jesus was . . .not God in the flesh

ijawkid:
People saw Jesus.....that is enough evidence to show Jesus wasn't God but a representative of God

What a bundle of contradictions you lot are. You have earlier insisted that Jesus is the express image of God. What does that suggest to you? To see the image of God is to see God. When you look in a mirror and perceive yourself, is it not by means of the image in the mirror? Or do you say that the image you see is that of another?
To Philip, Jesus said: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? [b]he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? [Joh 14:9][/b]
Jesus words he that hath seen me hath seen the Father stand in stark relief and opposite to your People saw Jesus.....that is enough evidence to show Jesus wasn't God but a representative of God

When men behold Jesus, they see God in the flesh. Enough of this neo-gnostic denials.

The NT presents an intimate portrait of Jesus of Nazareth as God manifest in the flesh.

In Isaiah it is written: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. [Isa 44:6]

In the Revelation of Jesus, it is written: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. [Rev 1:17-18]

The witness of scripture is clear. In Revelation, the Heavenly Man uses the same words as the Lord of hosts in Isaiah to describe Himself. Indeed the words I am the first, and I am the last announce deity. Moreover logic shows that there cannot be 2 firsts, there is only one first &c ergo Jesus is the One who declared in Isaiah I am the first, and I am the last: Jesus is God.

. . . and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh

@lagoshia......as regards matthew 26:29 u quoted.....that verse doesn't literally mean Jesus and his disciples would drink wine in heaven.....

Jesus obviously had reference to what wine sometimes symbolized in the scriptures,namely, ""JOY""......

Being together in the kingdom was what they(the apostles) looked to with highest anticipation.....

2 corinthians 5:2

English Standard Version (©2001)
For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our
heavenly dwelling,
.....

aletheia:
On this point do Jews, Muslims and Frosbel stumble.

I will respond to this when you address the two previous comments I made , one yesterday and another today.

But you won't , you just cannot see the fallaciousness of your position , darting about the whole place is not the way to argue your point, let us address our points one by one.


It's almost as if you are intoxicated with this Trinity dogma with no willingness to slow down and reassess.

appears our brother aletheia has a problem with the word IMAGE and thinks that this means the same thing as the person or object it represents.

I gave him a few key words to review earlier today , he ducked and never responded.

aletheia:
On this point do Jews, Muslims and Frosbel stumble.

a. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
(Mat 4:10)
b. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (Joh 9:38)
c. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (Joh 20:28)
d. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. (Mat 28:17)
Of course the staggering import of Thomas' words to Jesus escapes you!
Even some who beheld Him in the flesh doubted so not surprising if you several generations removed will doubt.

To those who doubted like Thomas. . .Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (Joh 20:29)

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God in the flesh.

This is a true saying affirmed and upheld by scripture:
(1Ti 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The words written in 1 Timothy God was manifest in the flesh stand in stark relief and are opposite to your Jesus was . . .not God in the flesh


What a bundle of contradictions you lot are. You have earlier insisted that Jesus is the express image of God. What does that suggest to you? To see the image of God is to see God. When you look in a mirror and perceive yourself, is it not by means of the image in the mirror? Or do you say that the image you see is that of another?
To Philip, Jesus said: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? [b]he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? [Joh 14:9][/b]
Jesus words he that hath seen me hath seen the Father stand in stark relief and opposite to your People saw Jesus.....that is enough evidence to show Jesus wasn't God but a representative of God

When men behold Jesus, they see God in the flesh. Enough of this neo-gnostic denials.

The NT presents an intimate portrait of Jesus of Nazareth as God manifest in the flesh.

In Isaiah it is written: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. [Isa 44:6]

In the Revelation of Jesus, it is written: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. [Rev 1:17-18]

The witness of scripture is clear. In Revelation, the Heavenly Man uses the same words as the Lord of hosts in Isaiah to describe Himself. Indeed the words I am the first, and I am the last announce deity. Moreover logic shows that there cannot be 2 firsts, there is only one first &c ergo Jesus is the One who declared in Isaiah I am the first, and I am the last: Jesus is God.

. . . and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh

Aren't we also images of GoD??

Are we GOD??....

It seems john 1:18 eluded ur thoughts.....

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
No one has ever seen God. God's only Son, the
one who is closest to the Father's heart, has
made him known.
.......
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
No man has seen God at any time; the only
begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the
Father, he has declared him.


Jesus saying if u've seen me u've seen the Father only shows Jesus expressed his Fathers qualities perfectly.......

A christian can rightly say ""if u've seen me u've seen Jesus""........

Why??

because a christian is christlike,like christ.....

This is why when apostle paul who was formally ""saul"" persecuted christians,Jesus asked him:::: ""why are u persecuting me""??,,.....did saul actually persecute Jesus in person??

If u persecute christians or Jesus's brothers ur persecuting him(Jesus)....



if u've seen real christians ,u've seen Christ...

If u've seen Christ ,u've seen Yahweh....

That's d chain bro....

I would want u to read john 1:18 and argue with john....

I repeat..""NOBODY HAS SEEN GOD @ anytime""......

For persons to have seen Jesus shows Jesus isn't Yahweh....but a representative of Yahweh....

Got it??

frosbel: appears our brother aletheia has a problem with the word IMAGE and thinks that this means the same thing as the person or object it represents.

I gave him a few key words to review earlier today , he ducked and never responded.

He indeed got a problem with the word IMAGE........

We humans are also image of God....

I've asked....are we God or d same as God??

ijawkid:


Ok my lagosia bro..

Jesus indeed did pre-exist b4 his coming to the earth.....he was from heaven bro...

John 3:13.......
New International Version (©1984)
No one has ever gone into heaven except the
one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
...

Let's see other scriptures...

John 6:38

New International Version (©1984)
For I have come down from heaven not to do
my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
.....

U culd ask urself if Jesus ate and drank while in heaven b4 he came to the earth.....

And 1 more scripture.....john 6:62

English Standard Version (©2001)
Then what if you were to see the Son of Man
ascending to where he was before?
.....

Questions for u mr lagosia...

Did Jesus exist in heaven b4 he came to the earth??

John 6:62 succinctly tells us that Jesus did indeed ascend back to where he was b4...

If Jesus was a ""spirit"" in heaven b4 Yahweh made it possible for his life to be transffered to mary's womb to be born as a man(flesh),why shuld Jesus go back to where he came from with flesh??.....

Was he flesh in heaven b4 descending to earth??

John 3:13 (KJV)
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven

This doesn't prove Jesus (as) pre-existed in heaven.this is a narration apparently written after Jesus (as) has "ascended"."Came down from heaven" can be understood as an idiom refering to Jesus (as) being fatherless.

John 6:38 also doesn't say he lived or pre-existed in heaven but that he descended from heaven.

John 6:62 when understood figuratively and taken in context with other verses it clearly doesn't say Jesus (as) pre-existed.let's take a look at this:

John 6:42
They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"

Jesus (as) is also known as the "word of God" because God made him through His word/command "BE" and "he became".so the "word" (logos) is from heaven and descended upon Mary (as).

You need to understand something here: Jesus (as) is the "word of God" figuratively.but the "word of God" which is God's command and manifestation of God that God continue to use to command and create is not Jesus (as).Jesus (as) was a product of the word.

4 things :


1. Jesus Christ is the SON of the living GOD

2. He did not pre-exist as a being

3. He was begotten by the Father , through his Spirit

4. God's Spirit is HIM and not another Spirit.


To deny these 4 items is to bring in damnable heresies such as re-incarnation , where a spirit being comes back to earth in bodily form , or even worse polytheism which says that there is ONE God but then he is 3 persons which in my opinion means 3 gods.

Why is it so hard to stick to the bible, or are you afraid of offending your church leaders more than offending God.

When you deny Jesus his 100% humanity , you remove him far from us , and almost make it impossible for MAN to relate with him, his sufferings , love and sacrifice for mankind.

Furthermore, the bible says that God cannot be tempted , yet we have some 'know it alls' trying to interject other meanings into the words of God thereby adding to his word , by saying that God can be tempted.

Jesus was tempted, he was tired, he slept, or do you not remember that God neither sleeps nor slumbers .

Guys stop this mess, go back to your bibles and read.

Love !!

ijawkid:


Ok my lagosia bro..

Jesus indeed did pre-exist b4 his coming to the earth.....he was from heaven bro...

John 3:13.......
New International Version (©1984)
No one has ever gone into heaven except the
one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
...

Let's see other scriptures...

John 6:38

New International Version (©1984)
For I have come down from heaven not to do
my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
.....

U culd ask urself if Jesus ate and drank while in heaven b4 he came to the earth.....

And 1 more scripture.....john 6:62

English Standard Version (©2001)
Then what if you were to see the Son of Man
ascending to where he was before?
.....

Questions for u mr lagosia...

Did Jesus exist in heaven b4 he came to the earth??

John 6:62 succinctly tells us that Jesus did indeed ascend back to where he was b4...

If Jesus was a ""spirit"" in heaven b4 Yahweh made it possible for his life to be transffered to mary's womb to be born as a man(flesh),why shuld Jesus go back to where he came from with flesh??.....

Was he flesh in heaven b4 descending to earth??

guy, i think it is time to buy you some bottles of drink to make your mortal heart rejoice.

Men, was the bible written for you and Fresky?

Why do you always get the bible saying what you are saying?

frosbel:
I will respond to this when you address the two previous comments I made , one yesterday and another today.

It has always been evident that you don't actually read others' posts. Slow down and read through this thread again and it will be apparent that I have responded in one way or other to the posts you directed at me. In any case I am not now interested in your response.

frosbel:
But you won't , you just cannot see the fallaciousness of your position , darting about the whole place is not the way to argue your point, let us address our points one by one.

Argue? You flatter yourself. I am not interested in "arguing".

frosbel:
You keep spewing out the same points you made , which have been explained previously without a response from you. Not sure why , or maybe you keep shifting the goal post.

Very funny. Show us what you have written on this thread that you have not repeated in one form or the other elsewhere on NL or even on this thread. The Bible is constant. Others reading this thread can judge between you and I who has been shifting goal posts.

frosbel:
It's almost as if you are intoxicated with this Trinity dogma with no willingness to slow down and reassess.

"Reassess". . .so said the serpent to the woman. . ."Has God said. . .?" There is nothing to reassess. The scripture speaks plainly. All genuine Bible translations have it so. . .
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [Joh 1:1-4]
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[Joh 1:14]

The only points you raise in support of your arian beliefs are emotional arguments, tepid arithmetic and semantic contortions. I have shown you severally bible verses that directly show that Jesus is God come in the flesh. Have you responded to any of these?

frosbel: Two things :


1. Jesus Christ is the SON of the living GOD

2. He did not pre-exist as a being

3. He was begotten by the Father , through his Spirit

4. God's Spirit is HIM and not another Spirit.


To deny these 4 items is to bring in damnable heresies such as re-incarnation , where a spirit being comes back to earth in bodily form , or even worse polytheism which says that there is ONE God but then he is 3 persons which in my opinion means 3 gods.

Why is it so hard to stick to the bible, or are you afraid of offending your church leaders more than offending God.

When you deny Jesus his 100% humanity , you remove him far from us , and almost make it impossible for MAN to relate with him, his sufferings , love and sacrifice for mankind.

Furthermore, the bible says that God cannot be tempted , yet we have some 'know it alls' trying to interject other meanings into the words of God thereby adding to his word , by saying that God can be tempted.

Jesus was tempted, he was tired, he slept, or do you not remember that God neither sleeps nor slumbers .

Guys stop this mess, go back to your bibles and read.

Love !!

Frosbel my friend,let me reveal one secret to you: the more biblical you're the less christian you become! Don't ask me why.find out why.

aletheia:
It has always been evident that you don't actually read others' posts. Slow down and read through this thread again and it will be apparent that I have responded in one way or other to the posts you directed at me. In any case I am not now interested in your response.


Argue? You flatter yourself. I am not interested in "arguing".


Very funny. Show us what you have written on this thread that you have not repeated in one form or the other elsewhere on NL or even on this thread. The Bible is constant. Others reading this thread can judge between you and I who has been shifting goal posts.


"Reassess". . .so said the serpent to the woman. . ."Has God said. . .?" There is nothing to reassess. The scripture speaks plainly. All genuine Bible translations have it so. . .
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [Joh 1:1-4]
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[Joh 1:14]

The only points you raise in support of your arian beliefs are emotional arguments, tepid arithmetic and semantic contortions. I have shown you severally bible verses that directly show that Jesus is God come in the flesh. Have you responded to any of these?

You have not responded to my satisfaction , your response was more like a random rant with no logical reasoning behind it.

I want point for point discussion and then we can move on to the next one.

All the points you keep raising have been addressed, stop getting overtly anxious and go through the pages of this article , you just might see what you are looking for.

For the benefit of doubt , allow me paste my points at the end of this page for your attention.

No more rants , slow down and address them.

thanks.

[quote author=aletheia]

You reduce the Word of God who is the Son of Man in Heaven to a plan. The "Trinity" concept is a Greek philosophical construct which men fashioned as they tried to formulate in intellectual terms the nature of God. While correct in some aspects, it nonetheless introduces a potential for erroneous understanding that has constituted a stumbling block to many like you. But the sad irony in your case is that you disregard the Greek underpinnings of what you now profess. Your ideas are not new: they bear the imprint of Heraclitus and the Neoplatonists.

My Calvin brother slow down.

To suggest that a second person of a supposed trinity resided in the womb of Mary for 9 months, was born and weaned for a number of years before developing into a a youth and then an adult , is quite comic if you ask me.

You are unknowingly propagating an anti-Christ doctrine in the form of re-incarnation.

Perhaps a part of your misapprehension arises from your thinking that the translation of logos as word does justice to the full range of meaning of the word logos. In English what we think of as logos is more often in the Greek lexis. When you consider the full Greek semantic range and connotations of Logos; it becomes apparent the consistency that Jesus of Nazareth is the Word of God and the Image of God.

And you still do not understand what Image means, no ? Maybe image123 can help you with this one !


Can we also call wisdom in the quoted verses from Proverbs 8 below a person ?

"Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?.....To you, O people, I call out;I raise my voice to all mankind........I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;... I possess knowledge and discretion.....The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,when he established the clouds above"


The personification of Wisdom is similar to the personification of God's word , no difference.

Wisdom here is not a being but obviously God's wisdom and so is his WORD both seperate from but an integral part of him.

This same Word was personified in Christ when God formed him in the womb of Mary through his Spirit.

New International Version (©1984)
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb." - Psalm 139:13

Correlate Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 , the same powerful WORD of God was in effect to bring into being creation.

^^^^^^^^

@aletheia ,

respond to this one first !!

LagosShia:

Frosbel my friend,let me reveal one secret to you: the more biblical you're the less christian you become! Don't ask me why.find out why.

On the contrary my friend, the more biblical you are , the more of a Christian you become and even moreso because you now understand the love of God and his plan of salvation for mankind through his only begotten SON Christ Jesus.

frosbel:

On the contrary my friend, the more biblical you are , the more of a Christian you become and even moreso because you now understand the love of God and his plan of salvation for mankind through his only begotten SON Christ Jesus.

I won't argue with you on that point.I can see God is opening your eyes and you're beginning to reason.I will just pray you continue seeing the truth.

My friend you have just contradicted yourself.you called Jesus (as) "the only begotten son of God" while you deny the trinity.when you say he is "begotten",it means he was NOT "made" or "created" thereby implying divinity,shared divinity or transfer of divinity.

Now let me allow you find out something on your own.the term "begotten" found in John 3:16 is an "interpolation".the revised standard version dropped the word "begotten" because that word isn't found in bible manuscripts for John 3:16.this point to the fact that the concept of divine sonship which is interrelated to making Jesus divine isn't biblical.therefore the term "son of God" is only figurative and not literal.God doesn't beget and He wasn't begotten.being a "son of God" is only figurative as defined in the book of romans that "all those who are led by the spirit of God are sons of God".

LagosShia:
I won't argue with you on that point.I can see God is opening your eyes and you're beginning to reason.I will just pray you continue seeing the truth.

My friend you have just contradicted yourself.you called Jesus (as) "the only begotten son of God" while you deny the trinity.when you say he is "begotten",it means he was NOT "made" or "created" thereby implying divinity,shared divinity or transfer of divinity.

Now let me allow you find out something on your own.the term "begotten" found in John 3:16 is an "interpolation".the revised standard version dropped the word "begotten" because that word isn't found in bible manuscripts for John 3:16.this point to the fact that the concept of divine sonship which is interrelated to making Jesus divine isn't biblical.therefore the term "son of God" is only figurative and not literal.God doesn't beget and He wasn't begotten.being a "son of God" is only figurative as defined in the book of romans that "all those who are led by the spirit of God are sons of God".

begotten past participle of be·get (Verb)
Verb:
(typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) Bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.

God created us and he did indeed beget Christ through his Spirit.

Jesus is the SON of GOD, irrefutable fact from genesis to revelation.

frosbel:


begotten past participle of be·get (Verb)
Verb:
(typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) Bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.

God created us and he did indeed beget Christ through his Spirit.

Jesus is the SON of GOD, irrefutable fact from genesis to revelation.

Two points you should note:

When you use "beget",it means "not made/created".did God make/create Jesus (as) or not?

The word "begotten" in John 3:16 is an interpolation.

You can research on that if you doubt me.

LagosShia:

This doesn't prove Jesus (as) pre-existed in heaven.this is a narration apparently written after Jesus (as) has "ascended"."Came down from heaven" can be understood as an idiom refering to Jesus (as) being fatherless.

guy, are you ok?
who made you a judge of what is an idiom and what is a plane statement here?

Must you twist the words of the bible to suit your quran?

That statement is very clear if you dont like it the way it is Thats your cup of tea, please, dont attempt that act of misrepresenting the bible again.

LagosShia:

John 3:13 (KJV)
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven

that is a very clear statement in the bible that your religion does not agree with, but this is not islam but christianity and has nothing to do with what islam teach and belive in.

You teach that muhamad and jesus are just prophet and that they have never never existed befor, well, if that is the case with your muhamad note, it is not so with christ.

While you are here you better not try to twist the scriptures all you can do is ask question or quote a counter scripture from bible if you have any and not to lie and say that the words of Jesus was an idiomatic statement just to suit your islamic stance.

Dont attempt that again please.

frosbel: 4 things :


1. Jesus Christ is the SON of the living GOD

2. He did not pre-exist as a being

3. He was begotten by the Father , through his Spirit

4. God's Spirit is HIM and not another Spirit.


To deny these 4 items is to bring in damnable heresies such as re-incarnation , where a spirit being comes back to earth in bodily form , or even worse polytheism which says that there is ONE God but then he is 3 persons which in my opinion means 3 gods.

Why is it so hard to stick to the bible, or are you afraid of offending your church leaders more than offending God.

When you deny Jesus his 100% humanity , you remove him far from us , and almost make it impossible for MAN to relate with him, his sufferings , love and sacrifice for mankind.

Furthermore, the bible says that God cannot be tempted , yet we have some 'know it alls' trying to interject other meanings into the words of God thereby adding to his word , by saying that God can be tempted.

Jesus was tempted, he was tired, he slept, or do you not remember that God neither sleeps nor slumbers .

Guys stop this mess, go back to your bibles and read.

Love !!

guy, dot contradict what the bible and Jesus has said to make your wrong opinion stand.

Did you not read that John 3:13?

Must we bend to agree with islam and you teach?

Can you show a scripture that says that Jesus has never existed befor?

If you wish to show absolute respect for God's word or not is your BUSINESS.

But dont denied a clear statement to denied a clear bible teaching.

If you twist scriptures to deny that Jesus was the first person that God created/first bone of all creation i hope you can also rewad yourself with everlasting life.

If you dont have all the facts of what the bible teach why not humble and continue reading?

On this you will only keep on contradicting scriptures.

For any teaching to be biblical it has to agree in the bible from GENESIS to revelation

frosbel:
Why is it so hard to stick to the bible, or are you afraid of offending your church leaders more than offending God.

stop whining,
dont go beyond what is written.
No body is teaching reincarnation, unless you dont know what reincarnation is.

Reincarnation is a process that does not terminate, but the bible said that God sent his son from heaven to earth a one off process and you shout reincanation, what?

Is the hand of God tied like that of Frosbel? That he can not send his son from heaven?

Start learning to have deep respect for God's word the bible and all you can do is ensure you dont contradict the bible GENESIS to revelation instead of twisting it.

Isaiah 9:6 said he shall be called mighty God, did God made a mistake and Frosbel is right?

Dont go beyond what is written.

God cannot be tempted means that almighty God Yahweh cannot be tempted.

frosbel: To suggest that a second person of a supposed trinity resided in the womb of Mary for 9 months, was born and weaned for a number of years before developing into a a youth and then an adult , is quite comic if you ask me.

Is this a point raised in favour of your Arianism, or an emotional response? Clearly an emotional response. What does the Bible say?
1. The Word was God.
2. The Word became flesh
So clearly the Word who was God resided in Mary's womb for 9 months! The Bible said it and that settles it!
At the annunciation: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. [Luk 1:35]

frosbel: You are unknowingly propagating an anti-Christ doctrine in the form of re-incarnation.

Did I not say your points are semantic contortions. You know what reincarnation claims to be and you know what the incarnation is. Stop this dishonest word substitution.

re·in·car·na·tion/ˌrē-inkärˈnāSHən/
Noun:
The rebirth of a soul in a new body.
A person or animal in whom a particular soul is believed to have been reborn.

in·car·na·tion/ˌinkärˈnāSHən/
Noun:
A person who embodies in the flesh a deity, spirit, or abstract quality.
(in Christian theology) The embodiment of God the Son in human flesh as Jesus Christ.

frosbel: And you still do not understand what Image means, no ? Maybe image123 can help you with this one !

Obviously you have not understood these scriptures:
1. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. [Col 2:9]
2. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [Php 2:6]
3. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[Col 1:15-16]
4. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; [Heb 1:3]
You think of the word image in limited human terms and thus you stumble. The image of God is much more than that. It says God is light, "dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see". God is the source of light and you can only perceive that source by the emanations of light that proceed therefrom. Are the rays of light that come forth from the source of light different from the source of light? Thus you see why John 1:1 talks of the Logos of God in such terms as this. . .In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
That is why the scriptures uses such words as "being in the form of God"; "the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person".

Consider and meditate on what Ezekiel wrote:
And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.[Eze 1:26-28]

Who did Ezekiel see here? Hint: not an angel.

frosbel: The personification of Wisdom is similar to the personification of God's word , no difference.
Wisdom here is not a being but obviously God's wisdom and so is his WORD both seperate from but an integral part of him.
This same Word was personified in Christ when God formed him in the womb of Mary through his Spirit.

Wrong again! The personification of wisdom that you allude to in proverbs is a literary device that goes by the term personification ( ). It is most definitely not the same as the Incarnation of the Word of God. If it were, you would have to show us where the wisdom took on flesh. It is probable that you want to argue that the Word of God is the same as the Wisdom alluded to in Proverbs. Before going down that route do not fail to note that the personification of Wisdom in Proverbs is always female. Is the Word of God female?
The personification of Wisdom in proverbs is a literary device no different from that of the leech in the same Proverbs. . .The horseleach hath two daughters, crying, Give, give. And yes the book of Proverbs does refer to God the Father and His Son: Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? [Pro 30:4]

His Son's Name is Jesus of Nazareth who in heaven is the Word of God.

truthislight:


guy, are you ok?
who made you a judge of what is an idiom and what is a plane statement here?

Must you twist the words of the bible to suit your quran?

That statement is very clear if you dont like it the way it is Thats your cup of tea, please, dont attempt that act of misrepresenting the bible again.


that is a very clear statement in the bible that your religion does not agree with, but this is not islam but christianity and has nothing to do with what islam teach and belive in.

You teach that muhamad and jesus are just prophet and that they have never never existed befor, well, if that is the case with your muhamad note, it is not so with christ.

While you are here you better not try to twist the scriptures all you can do is ask question or quote a counter scripture from bible if you have any and not to lie and say that the words of Jesus was an idiomatic statement just to suit your islamic stance.

Dont attempt that again please.

My friend using emotional outburst to reply with the aim to warn and threaten people not to air their beliefs will not validate your claims.

The verses presented thus far make two point:

1. Jesus descended from heaven
2. He was there "before".Jesus (as) is even recorded as saying "before Abraham was I was".

I explained those two points by talking about Jesus (as) being "the word of God".but I equally stated that the "word of God" is not Jesus (as).when the word/command of God descended upon Mary (as) she conceived.now that is the power and spirit of God Almighty to create.now you cannot say the "word" is in Mary (as) literally because you cannot render God "wordless".God will continue commanding "BE" and His command will manifest.His "word" will keep working and descending from heaven even after Jesus (as) was made and living on earth.

By no means does all that prove that Jesus (as) was in heaven as a living being created/uncreated by God just the way he was on earth.

Now I would ask you to stop your emotional outburst and stop sounding like a nagging woman pleading for something she's deprived of.it doesn't validate your claims.if you want to convince me Jesus (as) pre-existed in heaven as a living being,there is a small challenge or rather christian belief you got to prove using the words of Jesus (as) from the bible.

christians believe Jesus (as) was the one who quelled satan's rebellion in heaven,in the belief that Jesus (as) pre-existed.Jehovah's witnesses have even gone a step further to say Jesus (as) in his "heavenly days" was the angel Michael.now prove to me that Jesus (as) actually pre-existed by proving to me what he did in heaven.validate from Jesus' words in the bible that there was a rebellion in heaven and he was the one who quelled it.

you cannot prove that because it is "christian mythology" formed to fill in a gap and prove a point on Jesus' (as) "divinity" the early church fathers attributed to Jesus (as) to prove he was a "pre-existing god" before he was born by Mary (as).

As for Prophet Muhammad (sa) and also Imam Ali (as) and as a Shia myself,all the twelve holy Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) we have a belief recorded in Sunni texts that they were pre-existing in the form of the light God created to make them.but we do not claim at all they were living beings in heaven as they were on earth.here is a narration for you to see:

the Prophet (sa): "I and Ali were created of the same Divine Light 14,000 years before Adam was created".(Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani in Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, Ibn Maghazili Shafi'i in Manaqib, and Dailami in Firdaus have quoted the Prophet s.a. )

LagosShia:

My friend using emotional outburst to reply with the aim to warn and threaten people not to air their beliefs will not validate your claims.

The verses presented thus far make two point:

1. Jesus descended from heaven
2. He was there "before".Jesus (as) is even recorded as saying "before Abraham was I was".

I explained those two points by talking about Jesus (as) being "the word of God".but I equally stated that the "word of God" is not Jesus (as).when the word/command of God descended upon Mary (as) she conceived.now that is the power and spirit of God Almighty to create.now you cannot say the "word" is in Mary (as) literally because you cannot render God "wordless".God will continue commanding "BE" and His command will manifest.His "word" will keep working and descending from heaven even after Jesus (as) was made and living on earth.

By no means does all that prove that Jesus (as) was in heaven as a living being created/uncreated by God just the way he was on earth.

Now I would ask you to stop your emotional outburst and stop sounding like a nagging woman pleading for somethinh she's deprived of.it doesn't validate your claims.if you want to convince me Jesus (as) pre-existed in heaven as a living being,there is a small challenge or rather christian belief you got to prove using the words of Jesus (as) from the bible.

christians believe Jesus (as) was the one who quelled satan's rebellion in heaven,in the belief that Jesus (as) pre-existed.Jehovah's witnesses have even gone a step further to say Jesus (as) in his "heavenly days" was the angel Michael.now prove to me that Jesus (as) actually pre-existed by proving to me what he did in heaven.validate from Jesus' words in the bible that there was a rebellion in heaven and he was the one who quelled it.

As for Prophet Muhammad (sa) and also Imam Ali (as) and as a Shia myself,all the twelve holy Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) we have a belief recorded in Sunni texts that they were pre-existing in the form of the light God created to make them.but we do not claim at all they were living beings in heaven as they were on earth.here is a narration for you to see:

the Prophet (sa): "I and Ali were created of the same Divine Light 14,000 years before Adam was created".(Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani in Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, Ibn Maghazili Shafi'i in Manaqib, and Dailami in Firdaus have quoted the Prophet s.a. )

Lagosia my bro....

Jesus being the word of God doesn't mean he is infacts Yahwehs literal voice....

It seems u've got a lil mis-conception.....

Many call Jesus the word of God as if Jesus was Yahwehs literal voice or that Jesus was in Yahwehs vocal cords .........

But I'll tell u,if that were true then Yahweh would have been dumb in heaven when Jesus descended to the earth.....

But the bible account makes it clear that Yahweh spoke from heaven even while Jesus was on earth......

Meaning Yahweh still could talk after Jesus's descending to the earth.......

Now u might ask in what sense is Jesus called ""the word""....

Ask me....

ijawkid:

Lagosia my bro....

Jesus being the word of God doesn't mean he is infacts Yahwehs literal voice....

It seems u've got a lil mis-conception.....

Many call Jesus the word of God as if Jesus was Yahwehs literal voice or that Jesus was in Yahwehs vocal cords .........

But I'll tell u,if that were true then Yahweh would have been dumb in heaven when Jesus descended to the earth.....

But the bible account makes it clear that Yahweh spoke from heaven even while Jesus was on earth......

Meaning Yahweh still could talk after Jesus's descending to the earth.......

Now u might ask in what sense is Jesus called ""the word""....

Ask me....

I never said that the "word of God" refer to God's literal voice or a sound.

But since you have forwarded an invitation,let me ask you in what sense is Jesus (as) called the "word of God"?

Let me remind you that you've up till now not proved from the bible the other mythology that Jesus (as) could appear and disappear or materialize and dematerialize.but never mind.you can please answer me on the invitation you just put forward.

[quote author=aletheia]
Is this a point raised in favour of your Arianism, or an emotional response? Clearly an emotional response. What does the Bible say?

You forget that you hold on to similar beliefs with the JWs and Arianians who suggest that Jesus Christ existed as a spirit being prior to his coming down to earth.

1. The Word was God.
2. The Word became flesh
So clearly the Word who was God resided in Mary's womb for 9 months! The Bible said it and that settles it!
At the annunciation: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. [Luk 1:35]

The word which was GOD resided in Mary's womb for 9 months

If Jesus Christ was GOD prior to coming to earth , of what purpose was the overshadwoing of the Spirit of GOD over Mary to initiate the conceiving of a new human being.

Surely Christ as a pre-existent GOD could have performed this task independently of the Holy Spirit, no ?

According to you and the JWs, there are 2 Spirts in operation here, in fact 3.

God the Father
Holy Spirit
and Jesus Christ the pre-existing Spirit.


now Jesus Christ is fully God and Fully Man , so we have 3 Spirits and 1 Man.


Guys , this is getting messy.



Read this beautiful exposition by a Unitarian brother.


The proposition introduced by Gentile, philosophically-minded "Church Fathers" that Jesus was either a second "member" of the Godhead (later orthodoxy) or a created angel (Arians and, in modern times, Jehovah’s Witnesses) launched the whole vexed problem of the nature of Christ in relation to the Godhead and put under a fog the true Messiahship of Jesus and his Messianic Gospel about the Kingdom. Jesus of Nazareth is what the Word (God’s Wisdom) of John 1:1 became.

He is the unique expression, as a human being, of the Wisdom of God. It was the Wisdom of God which existed from the beginning, and that Wisdom became a person at the conception of Jesus. This explanation leaves intact the great cardinal doctrine that the One God is the Father and that Jesus is the Lord Messiah, not the Lord God.16 It was the early Greek Church Fathers who confused the issue of Jewish/Christian monotheism by introducing the idea of a "numerically second God."

Did I not say your points are semantic contortions. You know what reincarnation claims to be and you know what the incarnation is. Stop this dishonest word substitution.

Incarnation or Reincarnation are 2 sides of the same coin.

Incarnation which suggests that a spirit being came down to earth and indwelth the body of a woman is the stuff of Greek Mythology and Pagan thinking.

Jesus Christ came fully man , bones and flesh . He was 100% Man , 100% annointed by God , he was sent, he is not GOD.

Kindly explain the following verse.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God - 1 Corinthians 11:3

Obviously you have not understood these scriptures:
1. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. [Col 2:9]

First of all Godhead is a Trinitarian corruption from the KJV bible which Trinitarians hold on to for their dear lives.

Let us use the Aramaic bible.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For all The Fullness of The Deity dwells in him bodily.

or the NLT


New Living Translation (©200
For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.

The fact that Christ has “all the fullness” of God does not make him God. Ephesians 3:19 says that Christians should be filled with “all the fullness of God,” and no one believes that would make each Christian God.

If Christ were God, it would make no sense to say that the fullness of God dwelt in him, because, being God, he would always have the fullness of God.

The fact that Christ could have the fullness of God dwell in him actually shows that he was not God. 2 Peter 1:4 says that by way of God’s great and precious promises we “may participate in the divine nature.” Having a “divine nature” does not make us God, and it did not make Christ God.

We are indwelt by God through His Holy Spirit” (we would say “holy spirit, referring to God’s gift). Likewise Christ, who was filled with holy spirit without limits, had the fullness of “Deity” dwelling in him.

2. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [Php 2:6]

Again you are not looking at the words used.

What does FORM mean ?

form   [fawrm]
noun
1.
external appearance of a clearly defined area, as distinguished from color or material; configuration: a triangular form.
2.
the shape of a thing or person.
3.
a body, especially that of a human being.
4.
a dummy having the same measurements as a human body, used for fitting or displaying clothing: a dressmaker's form.
5.
something that gives or determines shape; a mold.



Jesus Christ was in the form of GOD , why did this verse not explicitly say, who being God ? Why in the form of GOD ?

Going by the your logic , it should read :
Who being GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


The word form which in greek is morphe appears four times in the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament):

Then he said to Zebah and Zalmunna, "What kind of men were they whom you killed at Tabor?" And they answered, As you, so they; each one the[b] form [/b] of the son of a king." (Judges 8:18).

Then a spirit passed by my face; the hair of my flesh bristled up. It stood still, but I could not discern its appearance; a form was before my eyes. (Job 14:16).

Another shapes wood, he extends a measuring line; he outlines it with red chalk. He works it with planes and outlines it with a compass, and makes it like the form of a man, like the beauty of man, so that it may sit in a house. (Isaiah 44:13).

Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury, and the form of his face has been changed. (Daniel 3:19).

Jesus Christ was in the form of GOD , he was in the Image of GOD , he was his exact representation, he was not GOD.

And then Paul in verse 9 says " Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"


Again here we have a clear distinction between GOD and his SON , not sure why this is so mysterious to trinitarians.

3. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[Col 1:15-16]
4. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; [Heb 1:3]
You think of the word image in limited human terms and thus you stumble. The image of God is much more than that. It says God is light, "dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see". God is the source of light and you can only perceive that source by the emanations of light that proceed therefrom. Are the rays of light that come forth from the source of light different from the source of light? Thus you see why John 1:1 talks of the Logos of God in such terms as this. . .In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
That is why the scriptures uses such words as "being in the form of God"; "the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person".

Image means exactly what it says Image, stop contradicting scripture to make an invalid point. No human reasoning is allowed here. The Image of GOD is not GOD, get it. This is simple grammar that any English man or woman will tell you at the drop of a hat.

Here is where strong's debunks your statement :

1504 eikṓn (from 1503 /eíkō, " be like " ) – properly, " mirror-like representation, " referring to what is very close in resemblance (like a "high-definition" projection, as defined by the context). Image (1504 /eikṓn) then exactly reflects its source (what it directly corresponds to). For example, Christ is the very image (1504 /eikṓn, supreme expression) of the Godhead (see 2 Cor 4:4; Col 1:15).

Again firstborn, if he was the firstborn how can he then be God who pre-existed

I think this debate is now based on the misinterpretation of words and grammar.

Read this