LagosShia: Hello my old friend,Frosbel.hope you're doing fine.

I've tried to seek your attention in the other thread but I'm not sure if you saw my post (in the Islam forum).

Firstly I never knew you are NOT a trinitarian and you regard the trinity as unbiblical and pagan.or is it a recent change?

Also if I may contribute into the topic of this thread as a neutral person,I have some points to make on the topic.

haibe: Islam believes in a physical
paradise and afterlife for humans-sex,food,etc

Sex with virgins (surah 55:54-56)

Sex appeal haha, all those whoremongers go like islam well well Oº°˚˚°ºh

haibe: Islam believes in a physical
paradise and afterlife for humans-sex,food,etc

Sex with virgins (surah 55:54-56)

Sex appeal haha, all those whoremongers go like islam well well Oº°˚˚°ºh

haibe: @lagoshia, sorry for putting mouth in what does not concern M̶̲̥̅Ƹ, pls i want 2 ask a question!

What of the females? Any male virgins prepared for them in al-jannah? And those men having seven virgins, what will happen to their wives on earth? Abi they go become 8?(7 virgin, 1 disvirgined)

frosbel:


The important thing is that we both believe there is ONE GOD not 3 , this is a very important basis for our discussion.
.

frosbel:

My deeperlife friend, kindly take your exit from this thread if you cannot allow a free and fair debate without adding insults.

thanks.

haibe:

Even trinitarians believe there is one God (isaiah 44:6, 43:11)

Even pagans believe in one God, so believing in one God is no big deal when trying to condemn the trinity.

haibe: @lagoshia, sorry for putting mouth in what does not concern M̶̲̥̅Ƹ, pls i want 2 ask a question!

What of the females? Any male virgins prepared for them in al-jannah? And those men having seven virgins, what will happen to their wives on earth? Abi they go become 8?(7 virgin, 1 disvirgined)

frosbel:

You put yourself into a dilemma when you say you believe in ONE GOD who is actually a 3-god GOD.

Does not make sense , stop confusing yourself.

This site might be of benefit to you - Christian Monotheism

Read the bible.

LagosShia: Hello my old friend,Frosbel.hope you're doing fine.

I've tried to seek your attention in the other thread but I'm not sure if you saw my post (in the Islam forum).

Firstly I never knew you are NOT a trinitarian and you regard the trinity as unbiblical and pagan.or is it a recent change?

Also if I may contribute into the topic of this thread as a neutral person,I have some points to make on the topic.

This topic is also of interest for muslims because we can prove many things.you guys (christians) are arguing among yourselves because you're using the bible.based on the bible there is an obvious contradiction.

In one bible verse you'd read that resurrected bodies are "spiritualized".when you come back from the dead you're a spirit!

In another verse we read the disciples were terrified upon seeing Jesus (as) after they "thought" he was killed.why were they terrified upon seeing him? Because they thought he was a spirit.

In another verse we read that Jesus (as) told his disciples to touch him and feel him and that it is him (I.e. Not a ghost they're seeing).

In another verse we read Jesus (as) resurrected Lazarus.ofcourse Lazarus didn't become a spirit roaming.at least the bible didn't say that.

So from these accounts we can ask the following unanswerable questions on the bible which give contradictory answers:

1. If Jesus (as) truly died and was crucified (which Islam rejects) then how come he wasn't a spirit and his disciples touched him? does it mean he didn't die?

2.) If he really "died" and returned from the dead then how come he wasn't "spiritualized"? Remember the bible says resurrected bodies are "spiritualized".does it mean the bible is wrong and those returning from the dead are not "spirits" but physical?

Then there is also the question of physical or spiritual paradise.christians believe in "spiritual" paradise where people who return after death are "spiritualized"-they don't need women,food,etc.

If if people would be spiritualized,the instances of Jesus (as) and Lazarus don't support that.Islam believes in a physical paradise and afterlife for humans-sex,food,etc.

If honestly frosbel recently changed his view on the trinity,then there is hope for him becoming muslim sometime very soon.there are many changes he will surely make upon reading more and growing spiritually.

Bélla3: you dey find trouble o. Dnt u knw infidel children of 8 and 9 yrs of age are virgins?

haibe:

If its the difficulty you have in understanding the trinity that is ur challenge and making you deny the Godhead, just remember, God is wiser than you are.

haibe:

Lol, na true oo

haibe: Colossians 2:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Romans 1:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being
understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are
without excuse:

haibe: 1 John 5:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and
these three are one.



Matthew 28:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the
Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


I often wonder why not names!

ijawkid:

1 peter 3:18 says Jesus was made alive in d spirit.....he was put to death in d body(flesh),and was raised up in the spirit...

The truth is d rationale behind Jesus appearing with a body which his disciples culd see and touch is that Jesus could materialize and de-materialize........

Angels who are spirit creatures can and have done that in the past......its not a new thing

Jesus was able to move to places with d speed of light.....Jesus could pass thru locked rooms....

Only a spirit person can do that.....

And how on earth was Jesus able to go back to reside in d heavens if he wasn't a spirit.....

Flesh can't inherit the kingdom of the heavens.....the scriptures says that.....

The fact is @ one time or the other Jesus had to be a spirit to go back to the abode he came from..........

1 corinthians 15:35-50

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead
raised up? And with what body do they come?”
36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive
unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not
sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—
perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But
God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each
seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is
one kind of flesh[c] of men, another flesh of
animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and
terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the
celestial is one, and the glory of the
terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of
the sun, another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars; for one star
differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in
incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is
raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is
raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body,
it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural
body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so
it is written, “The first man Adam became a
living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-
giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the
natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The
first man was of the earth, made of dust; the
second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As
was the man of dust, so also are those who are
made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so
also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we
have borne the image of the man of dust, we
shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly
Man.
Our Final Victory
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and
blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor
does corruption inherit incorruption. ...


Jesus was raised up a ""spirit"" different from the 1st adam..........

There 2 kinds of body::::

####Spiritual body


##### earthly body....

It is either one or the other......

If Jesus was raised up in d flesh then he is still earthly up there in d heavens.....

Jesus was raised up in the ""spirit""

LagosShia:

I have read your explanation and the main point I understand you're basing your explanation on is that Jesus (as) can materialize and de-materialize and that is why the disciples were able to touch him after "resurrection".you also maintained that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God and therefore resurrected bodies are spiritualized.

Thanks a lot for the explanation.I have a few more questions for you.

1.) Do spirits need to eat and drink?

2.) Will resurrected people eat and drink in paradise?

3.) Can you back your claim up that Jesus (as) could materialize and dematerialize with any verse in the bible? 1 Peter 3:18 doesn't say he could materialize and dematerialize;as in appear and disappear like a magic trick.the verse only says that Jesus (as) was created through the spirit of God and then died as a human in body and then the verse actually support he was "raised up" in spirit-apparently without justifying or explaining why his disciples were able to touch an alleged "spirit".as a muslim I do believe that Jesus (as) was created or "made alive" by the spirit of God.we even call Jesus (as) "ruhullah" which means "spirit of God".also we believe he was a man whose body can die.but we don't believe the last part which says he was "raised up" in spirit (aside from the fact that we muslims don't believe he died in the first place).we believe in bodily resurrection.

The point I am making is the verse doesn't support that Jesus (as) materialize and dematerialize.the parting of the soul from the body doesn't mean you can appear and disappear like angels,which are spiritual beings different from us.

So please back up your claim about materializing and dematerializing.

aletheia: 3. I AM

(Joh 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

"Verily, verily". . .prefaced by a double Amen - the strongest oath - our Lord claims the name of the Divine Being. The Jews recognize His meaning and are angry enough to want to stone Him. An unbiased exegesis of this verses must recognize in it a declaration of the pre-existence of Christ. From the old Testament, we know that "I am" refers to the name of God Himself, Yahweh.
(Exo 3:14) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
The Jews were quite familiar with the idea that Yahweh is the eternally existent One. What was new to them was the identification of this designation with Jesus. From the reactions of the surrounding Jews we have proof that they understood His reference as a claim to absolute deity.

In one single statement the supreme truth about the supreme Man is made known - His pre-existence, His absolute existence.

That the expression "I am" (ego eimi) is intended to declare the full deity of Christ is clear from the fact that Jesus did not attempt an explanation. He did not try to convince the Jews that they had misunderstood Him, but rather He repeated the statement on various occasions.

Compare these two verses:
(Deu 32:39) See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

(Joh 8:23-24) And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

In the original Greek John 8:23-24 does not have the words I am he but rather it is I am that appears there. The translators added he. . .so the verses should properly read:
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.

What I have written here is easily verifiable by checking an interlinear Greek NT.

A clear demonstration of divine name of Jesus is seen in:
As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. (Joh 18:6)

ijawkid:

Trinitarians won't kill me with laughter...

Ok what about Jesus's words when he said::::

New Living Translation (©2007)
Remember what I told you: ""I am"" going away,
but I will come back to you again. If you really
loved me, you would be happy that"" I am"" going
to the Father, who is greater than I"" am"".
.......

Jesus used the words ""I am"" like about 3 times.....

The word ""I am"" denotes ones existence....


It shows ones exclusive person or existence....

Jesus=Jesus

Yahweh=Yahweh..

Aletheia=aletheia

Frosbel=frosbel.....

Jesus said ::the. Father is greater than ""I am""....

It shows Jesus and d Father are 2 seperate individuals and that one is greater than the other or 1 is lesser than the other.....

From ur conclusion of the word ""I am"" we can say that one ""I am"" is greater than another ""I am"".....

Isn't it??

ijawkid:
The word ""I am"" denotes ones existence....

It shows ones exclusive person or existence....

aletheia:
(Joh 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, [size=16pt]I am[/size].

"Verily, verily". . .prefaced by a double Amen - the strongest oath - our Lord claims the name of the Divine Being. The Jews recognize His meaning and are angry enough to want to stone Him. An unbiased exegesis of this verses must recognize in it a declaration of the pre-existence of Christ. From the old Testament, we know that "I am" refers to the name of God Himself, Yahweh.
(Exo 3:14) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

[size=16pt]In one single statement the supreme truth about the supreme Man is made known - His pre-existence, His absolute existence.[/size]

aletheia: In fact, you are double minded and uncertain. . .this is what you wrote on April 23rd.


See how it stands in stark relief to your pasted "analysis".

ijawkid:

1 peter 3:18 says Jesus was made alive in d spirit.....he was put to death in d body(flesh),and was raised up in the spirit...

The truth is d rationale behind Jesus appearing with a body which his disciples culd see and touch is that Jesus could materialize and de-materialize........

Angels who are spirit creatures can and have done that in the past......its not a new thing

Jesus was able to move to places with d speed of light.....Jesus could pass thru locked rooms....

Only a spirit person can do that.....

And how on earth was Jesus able to go back to reside in d heavens if he wasn't a spirit.....

Flesh can't inherit the kingdom of the heavens.....the scriptures says that.....

The fact is @ one time or the other Jesus had to be a spirit to go back to the abode he came from..........

1 corinthians 15:35-50

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead
raised up? And with what body do they come?”
36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive
unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not
sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—
perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But
God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each
seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is
one kind of flesh[c] of men, another flesh of
animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and
terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the
celestial is one, and the glory of the
terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of
the sun, another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars; for one star
differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in
incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is
raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is
raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body,
it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural
body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so
it is written, “The first man Adam became a
living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-
giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the
natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The
first man was of the earth, made of dust; the
second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As
was the man of dust, so also are those who are
made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so
also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we
have borne the image of the man of dust, we
shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly
Man.
Our Final Victory
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and
blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor
does corruption inherit incorruption. ...


Jesus was raised up a ""spirit"" different from the 1st adam..........

There 2 kinds of body::::

####Spiritual body


##### earthly body....

It is either one or the other......

If Jesus was raised up in d flesh then he is still earthly up there in d heavens.....

Jesus was raised up in the ""spirit""

aletheia:


What are you? I doubt if you understand even the meaning of your own words. . .it seems to me you are only regurgitating that which you learned by rote.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God in the flesh.