Honestly Image123, you don catch me baaad! I didn't want to make a single post on this thread at all since the "unitarians", JWs, "Jesus is a godists" (and Moslems etc) say that they want to discuss among themselves "lovingly", "brotherly" etc.

But the question you asked has been screaming to be asked!

Interestingly, I notice that the JWs have not so far made clear to their "friends" and "brothers" that they believe Jesus is the same as the angel Michael.

Enigma: Honestly Image123, you don catch me baaad! I didn't want to make a single post on this thread at all since the "unitarians", JWs, "Jesus is a godists" (and Moslems etc) say that they want to discuss among themselves "lovingly", "brotherly" etc.

But the question you asked has been screaming to be asked!

Interestingly, I notice that the JWs have not so far made clear to their "friends" and "brothers" that they believe Jesus is the same as the angel Michael.

they are creeping in slooowly.

ijawkid: Jesus did pre-exist b4 is descension to earth...

Like I've always said and also supported by the scripture,Jesus is Gods 1st born.....

he(Jesus) is less than his God and Father but greater than the angels and all humans.....

That's how it is my bro frosbel.......

I wonder why Frosbel should doubt all scriptures that clearly showed this obvious

Anyway, i will join the talk later when i get small chance

plappville:

I wonder why Frosbel should doubt all scriptures that clearly showed this obvious

Anyway, i will join the talk later when i get small chance

2 things :

I do not believe that JESUS existed as the second person of a Trinity or an angel.

We have to be very careful when analysing scripture.

Please provide me with evidence that Jesus existed either as an angel or as the second person of the Trinity.

Thank You.

frosbel:

2 things :

I do not believe that JESUS existed as the second person of a Trinity or an angel.

We have to be very careful when analysing scripture.

Please provide me with evidence that Jesus existed either as an angel or as the second person of the Trinity.

Thank You.

John 16:28: 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 14:12: 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:2: 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Let's not go back to that trinity circle. Pls

Reyginus: Let's not go back to that trinity circle. Pls

You re right, the topic is about Christ pre-existance.

frosbel:

2 things :

I do not believe that JESUS existed as the second person of a Trinity or an angel.

We have to be very careful when analysing scripture.

Please provide me with evidence that Jesus existed either as an angel or as the second person of the Trinity.

Thank You.

I cannot tell you what is not supported by the scripture. If Jesus was an angel or second person its left for the bible to speak for itself.
You have been given numerous verses that proved Jesus pre-existance but they seem not to be enough for you.

We can see this review, The book of John starts with, “In the beginning was the "Word", and the Word was with God, and the "Word was God".
The same was in the beginning with God” (John 1:1-2). You can see that these verses reveal that two Beings existed “in the beginning.” One is the Word, and the other is God.
Just this background stroke out certain myths in revealing that Jesus did existed right from DEBUT DU MONDE. And the verses even made it clear that the word was God.

These doesn't say the word was Angel nor Second person, but it says the word was God. Further reading makes it clearer. Even if i am not agree that God is triune, I may agree that this verse speak about two eternal being which are seperated. The word was with God, THESAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING, Bros Frosbel.

[quote author=frosbel][/quote] frosbel said Jesus had no bging of day and still says Jesus didnt preexist, frosbel i hate to say this but u lack coherence, u are sounding like a broken record.

frosbel:


"and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written, 18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, 19 to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." 20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." - Luke 4:17-21

oh! So that was wen Jesus became aware of his mission abi? To be sincere frosbel (no offence meant) your discussion gives me no joy whatsoever, it pains my heart, it wounds me as i see u skipping scripture in some sort of acrobatics and throwing off parts that do not support u, i weep really, i weep for you. I pray the eye of ur mind may be opened and you will come to the understanding of "the true God and christ Jesus whom he sent" for therein is eternal life.
I will try to stay clear of arguements like this, it doesnt help me, it pains my heart. I wish u all blessings.
Peace

Hahahahahahaha! Lol. . .mr. Frosbel welldon. . .i thought you said Jesus is the judge of all creation(in other thread) and now he's not YAHWEH?? Interesting, choping popcorn

tintingz: Hahahahahahaha! Lol. . .mr. Frosbel welldon. . .i thought you said Jesus is the judge of all creation(in other thread) and now he's not YAHWEH?? Interesting, choping popcorn

You just revelealed your ZERO knowledge of the bible

"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son " - John 5:22

John 5:27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

frosbel:

2 things :

I do not believe that JESUS existed as the second person of a Trinity or an angel.

We have to be very careful when analysing scripture.

Please provide me with evidence that Jesus existed either as an angel or as the second person of the Trinity.

Thank You.

John 16:28: 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 14:12: 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:2: 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

These words are not the ones of someone who who just came into existence.

I believe our founding fathers had prepared all of this for us to build upon. It dosen't make sense that after many years we beging to doubt the pre existence of christ and question the trinity. We should have progressed into greater works and not start digging into the begining and origin of our christian race.

Yes we need to kmow! But that really is not a priority.

This same trinity is what many great men of God on earth today have preached and have performing wonderous miracles even till this day.

I leave you with the this verse.

Luke 7:22: 22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

frosbel:
You just revelealed your ZERO knowledge of the bible
"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son " - John 5:22
John 5:27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

Lol. . .dont wanna derail this thread cuz i have given verses that Jesus judgement is limited only to twelve tribes of isreal "matt 19:28" he can do nothing and only judge as he hear "john 5:30" finaly he said "i judge no man john 8:15"
Now to those who said Jesus pre-exist they should explain what solomon said in proverbs 8:23 "ages ago i was set up before the begining of the earth". . .also God question job 38:4-21 saying you were already born during my creation, God knew jeremiah 1:4-5 before he was form in the womb!. . .if solomon, job and jeremiah claim they were pre-existing why can't we call them Gods existing with Jesus in heaven

Ubenedictus: oh! So that was wen Jesus became aware of his mission abi? To be sincere frosbel (no offence meant) your discussion gives me no joy whatsoever, it pains my heart, it wounds me as i see u skipping scripture in some sort of acrobatics and throwing off parts that do not support u, i weep really, i weep for you. I pray the eye of ur mind may be opened and you will come to the understanding of "the true God and christ Jesus whom he sent" for therein is eternal life.
I will try to stay clear of arguements like this, it doesnt help me, it pains my heart. I wish u all blessings.
Peace

very touching....

oiseworld:

very touching....

i doubt that, i wasnt trying to be poetic, things are what they are. I have decided to tap the unfollow botton, bye.

frosbel: In the beginning was the WORD, I am sure John knew what Son or Jesus meant.

Brother Frosbel na waoooh

Lets take a good look at this verse.

“Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness” (Gen. 1:26).

You will agree with me that when God said this, He was nt talking to Himself na . Abi you won tellme say He been confused?. Of course not.
God is plainly more than one Person. The Hebrew word used here is elohim. A uni-plural word. THEREFORE, one God, but meanin' more than one Person. God and Christ represent two separate Beings, As plainly illustrated in the start of John's writting.
Together, they represent the “Us” and “Our” of this verse.

Back to John writing....You have been giving it several meaning in your comments forgetting thet,the only way the "WORD" could both be God and be “with” God is if there were two separate Beings. One Being, the Word who became Jesus Christ, came to earth and “dwelt among men,” until His crucifixion as the Savior. The other Being, the Father, remained in heaven and was the One to whom Jesus Christ prayed. He (Christ's Father) was the One who resurrected Him from the dead so that He could return to His throne in heaven. The Muslims always say to trinitarians:

If Jesus is God then who does He pray to? , A good question indeed no? Jesus left Heaven to earth.
He left His Father in Heaven for the sake of Mankind. So while He was on earth, He prayed to His father. If He was Yahweh Himself, He definately cannot pray to Himself. John 1 told Us He was the word. And that He was in the beginning/Debut.


I take to your advise when you say we should becareful in the way and manner we interprets Scriptures.
But sometimes even when the scripture esplains itself, you still try harder to fit it with a meaning.
This baffles me alot. Bros Frosbel, Maybe you can explain what Christ meant here in the verse below as well.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Ubenedictus: i doubt that, i wasnt trying to be poetic, things are what they are. I have decided to tap the unfollow botton, bye.

You must be calm if you must learn or teach others, if you vex commot here because ur eyes see wetin you no like, then u no get patient at all.
And if you have something that others might learn from you, because of anger, you would not be able to pour them out.

I understand you Love your lord, But know ye that the Op does too, likewise everyone of us here seeking to know the truth.

Be calm bros...

plappville:

Brother Frosbel na waoooh

Lets take a good look at this verse.

“Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness” (Gen. 1:26).

You will agree with me that when God said this, He was nt talking to Himself na . Abi you won tellme say He been confused?. Of course not.
God is plainly more than one Person. The Hebrew word used here is elohim. A uni-plural word. THEREFORE, one God, but meanin' more than one Person. God and Christ represent two separate Beings, As plainly illustrated in the start of John's writting.
Together, they represent the “Us” and “Our” of this verse.

But plappville if you can say all of these, then what is your problem or fight with "Trinitarians" ---- you are not much different from them afterall!

The bit that I've bolded in blue is basically saying the same thing as the "Trinitarians".

The bit that I've bolded in red will need adjustment. The "Trinitarians" put it this way: the Father is one Person, Jesus is one Person but both of them are of one Being or of one substance or of one essence ---- so they are not "two separate Beings".

plappville: Back to John writing....You have been giving it several meaning in your comments forgetting thet,the only way the "WORD" could both be God and be “with” God is if there were two separate Beings. One Being, the Word who became Jesus Christ, came to earth and “dwelt among men,” until His crucifixion as the Savior. The other Being, the Father, remained in heaven and was the One to whom Jesus Christ prayed. He (Christ's Father) was the One who resurrected Him from the dead so that He could return to His throne in heaven. The Muslims always say to trinitarians:

If Jesus is God then who does He pray to? , A good question indeed no? Jesus left Heaven to earth.
He left His Father in Heaven for the sake of Mankind. So while He was on earth, He prayed to His father. If He was Yahweh Himself, He definately cannot pray to Himself. John 1 told Us He was the word. And that He was in the beginning/Debut.


I take to your advise when you say we should becareful in the way and manner we interprets Scriptures.
But sometimes even when the scripture esplains itself, you still try harder to fit it with a meaning.
This baffles me alot. Bros Frosbel, Maybe you can explain what Christ meant here in the verse below as well.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Notice that I have marked the word "Being" in red three times; from the point of view of the "Trinitarians", the word "Being" should be replaced with "Person".

Consider the words of that song:

Holy Holy Holy
Lord God Almighty
. . . .
God in Three Persons
Blessed Trinity.

Enigma:

But plappville if you can say all of these, then what is your problem or fight with "Trinitarians" ---- you are not much different from them afterall!

The bit that I've bolded in blue is basically saying the same thing as the "Trinitarians".

The bit that I've bolded in red will need adjustment. The "Trinitarians" put it this way: the Father is one Person, Jesus is one Person but both of them are of one Being or of one substance or of one essence ---- so they are not "two separate Beings".





Notice that I have marked the word "Being" in red three times; from the point of view of the "Trinitarians", the word "Being" should be replaced with "Person".

Consider the words of that song:

Holy Holy Holy
Lord God Almighty
. . . .
God in Three Persons
Blessed Trinity.

SMH!!!!!!

I am not sure why we cannot simply accept that JESUS was a real MAN like you and me.

While I am beginning to admire the JW and their stance on a number of issues , we still have our differences , one of which is the issue of this pre-existence.

One thing I have learnt over the years is not to make things more complex than they really are . Also I have refused to let any church dictate my belief, rather I go to my bible for answers and pray for wisdom for the correct interpretation.

The only different between US and JESUS is that JESUS was fathered by Almighty GOD through his holy spirit , while WE and are the seed of ADAM stained by the corruption of SIN.

It is this holy spirit that overshadowed Mary and made her conceive the Son of GOD that makes Jesus , special, unique and divine.

Jesus is 100% MAN , if he ever was the second person of an erroneous Trinity or another spirit being, then he could not have died fully, a part of him was alive even when he died.

The last ADAM had to be like the first ADAM to qualify for the sacrificial death ordained from time immemorial , for the atonement of our sins.

Because of time and gradual exhaustion due to Nairaland I suggest you peruse the following ARTICLE

Enigma:

But plappville if you can say all of these, then what is your problem or fight with "Trinitarians" ---- you are not much different from them afterall!

The bit that I've bolded in blue is basically saying the same thing as the "Trinitarians".

The bit that I've bolded in red will need adjustment. The "Trinitarians" put it this way: the Father is one Person, Jesus is one Person but both of them are of one Being or of one substance or of one essence ---- so they are not "two separate Beings".





Notice that I have marked the word "Being" in red three times; from the point of view of the "Trinitarians", the word "Being" should be replaced with "Person".

Consider the words of that song:

Holy Holy Holy
Lord God Almighty
. . . .
God in Three Persons
Blessed Trinity.

Sorry, I in no way in accord with the trinity dogman. John stated that In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
Two seperate being or person if you want are involve here not one. (One Being, the Word who became Jesus Christ) and The other (Being, the Father/God),
If Jesus is one being or person and the Father is one being/person then they are two seperate beings.

frosbel: I am not sure why we cannot simply accept that JESUS was a real MAN like you and me.

While I am beginning to admire the JW and their stance on a number of issues , we still have our differences , one of which is the issue of this pre-existence.

One thing I have learnt over the years is not to make things more complex than they really are . Also I have refused to let any church dictate my belief, rather I go to my bible for answers and pray for wisdom for the correct interpretation.

The only different between US and JESUS is that JESUS was fathered by Almighty GOD through his holy spirit , while WE and are the seed of ADAM stained by the corruption of SIN.

It is this holy spirit that overshadowed Mary and made her conceive the Son of GOD that makes Jesus , special, unique and divine.

Jesus is 100% MAN , if he ever was the second person of an erroneous Trinity or another spirit being, then he could not have died fully, a part of him was alive even when he died.

The last ADAM had to be like the first ADAM to qualify for the sacrificial death ordained from time immemorial , for the atonement of our sins.

Because of time and gradual exhaustion due to Nairaland I suggest you peruse the following ARTICLE

If you say so, then you have to ask question on numerous verses in the Bible

plappville:

If you say so, then you have to ask question on numerous verses in the Bible

Of course, we are here to learn, I am not 100% accurate on doctrine.

So share with me these scripture and we can discuss.

thanks.

frosbel:

Of course, we are here to learn, I am not 100% accurate on doctrine.

So share with me these scripture and we can discuss.

thanks.

Bros, you have overlooked/jumped some of these verses in the above comments already.....

frosbel:

Of course, we are here to learn, I am not 100% accurate on doctrine.

So share with me these scripture and we can discuss.

thanks.

This ur new argument shows it hahaha (jk) well no one is 100% accurate.


In addition to previews posts. I still cannot know or trust where you are driving to and how you can disprove these verses. Christ proved He existed, no two ways about it. The Bible not only explicitly teaches this doctrine but also implies this evidence at various points througout the Gospels and epistles of The Apostles.  Making this fct more solid, Jesus own character reveal His divine identity and, His pre-existence. 

Several places in the NT explicitly teach this. If you do not want to trust John 1, then u can at least trust Jesus' speach in (John 17:5) which is more than sufficient to show that the Scripture supports His pre-existence, but it is just one of many such passages.
I present you more chapters as requested. Jesus Himself taught His own pre-existence in thses verses: (John 3:13, 6:33, 38, 62; 8:23; 16:28). He proved it prior to Abraham’s birth (John 8:58-59) despite Abraham’s birth preceeded His own birth by centuries! Jesus as pre-existing with His Father (God) (Romans 8:3; 1 John 1:2; Galatians 4:4). 

Do we have to reject these verses

ijawkid:


SMH!!!!!!

My broda, why the silent from you? SYH is not enough ooo