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Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? - Autos - Nairaland

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Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by dpresident(m): 4:49pm On Jan 29, 2008
Someone gave me a V6 cheaper than a similar 4 cylinder end of discussion <<Accord?>> and I became skeptical about the performance of the V6.

Please does anyone knows if the V6 is less superior than the I4 engine?
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by qimpex: 5:10pm On Jan 29, 2008
dpresident:

Someone gave me a V6 cheaper than a similar 4 cylinder end of discussion and I became sceptical about the performance of the V6.

Please does anyone knows if the V6 is less superior than the I4 engine?

No, the V6 is more superior than the 4 cylinder, in terms of performance.However, because of the little difference in fuel consumption, which in my opinion can't be compared with the better performance, many Nigerians run away from V6 engine. The market is polluted with many stories about issues with the Honda V6 engine, hence the 'bad-mouth' in the market. I painfuly, sold a 2000 Accord V6 for N1.2m last week. Painful, in the sense that I would have made more money selling it in the US than in Nigeria. You win some you lose some!

I will advise you to go with the V6.Ever wondered why SUVs don't come with 4 cylinders.You will enjoy it if you maintain it well.

1 Like

Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by dpresident(m): 10:51am On Jan 30, 2008
@gimpex

I really appreciate your comment. Thanks and God bless

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Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Ivvie: 7:10pm On Feb 08, 2008
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Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Midas02(m): 2:59pm On Feb 11, 2008
The two responders have answered you question correctly but let me add a little  something; Honda's V6 engines are particularly popular in the US because of excellent reliability, comparable economy to some other manufacturers 4 Cylinder and loads of Power. The 3.0L V6 in the 2003-2007 Honda Accord delivers over 240Hp to the wheels as compared to the 2.4L 4 cylinder's 160Hp. Ultimately, both engines are reliable with the V6 trading some economy for performance/power. Also V6 engines that are well maintained do tend to outlast 4 cylinder engines because they wear at a slower rate however the maintenance cost is higher because of the extra pair of cylinders, components and the larger displacement of the engine.

The question isn't about superiority or which is better, rather the real question is what is important to you - Power or Economy, Performance or Low cost. The choice is yours!

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Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Ivvie: 7:27pm On Feb 11, 2008
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Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Midas02(m): 10:38pm On Feb 11, 2008
Ivvie, your prior statement is not only wrong but also misleading. One of the interesting things about us Naijas is that everybody is an expert!!
I know you have read a lot of things here and there and you are entitled to your own opinion however it would be wrong of you to educate other people with half-baked information. Now let me explain - An engine with 6 pots (meaning 6 cylinders) has a crankshaft that is designed to handle heavier loads (torque) and the desired maximum output (Bhp - brake horse powers) which is far greater than in a 4 pot (4 cylinder) engine. Now if you have handled, driven, fixed and understand cars and have any hands on experience you will know that a 6 cylinder engine at any speed does fewer RPM's (revolutions per minute) than an equivalent 4 cylinder counterpart. The displacement of an engine notwithstanding, more cylinders means less RPM (revolutions per minute) at a given speed (or for any given work/load) which means your engine is more relaxed on the highway and your pistons are doing less work. What causes wear is the friction generated by the up and down movement of the pistons (reciprocating motions) throughout the course of internal combustion. So therfore, when you have an engine that has 4 pistons, it will do its job adequately however, 6 pistons will do the work with even less stress per piston. Anybody that knows cars will know that when your engine wears the first thing they tell you to change are your rings!
Rings are special alloyed components that fit snugly around a piston and thereby take all the friction rubbing against the cylinder wall of the engine block. Worn engines smoke when these piston rings wear and do not fit snugly into the cylinder wall anymore thereby causing and allowing oil residues to remain in the cylinder; This causes the engine oil (which shouldn't be there after each stroke) to mix with the fuel/petrol mixture during the combustion phase, this results in incomplete combustion, loss of compression and diminished output/power, the final phase is the bluish gray smoke (which is a sign of poor combustion & poor output) that comes out of the exhaust valve to the manifold. This is why worn engines smoke and use up engine oil!
Now, it only makes sense that the more revolutions an engine makes, the more work the pistons do (up and down movement). This piston motions are transferred to the Crankshaft via connecting rods and advanced lower bearings. So that the load on the crankshaft is a direct consequence of the output of the pistons which sit on it. 4 Cylinders use smaller crankshafts because they have fewer pots and have to move more frequently to keep the engine at the same load/output as a 6 cylinder. Compression is the phase or stroke in which the piston pushes in to compress the Air/fuel mixture. An optimised design calls for higher compression ratio, this achieves greater output per volume of fuel thus new high efficiency engines can/do put out more power relative to its displacement (size of engine) and also achieves higher fuel economy while doing this. Compression ratio has little or nothing to do with wear and tear in engines, it does however affect engine efficiency and output. If anything at all, all engines ultimately wear over periods of time and with use, however, the rate of wear in smaller engines is much greater - that is why you see motorcycles (okada) smoke so much from wear! (most okadas have one cylinder and a few ones have two cylinders!)

Honda makes excellent engine and they have a long history of making durable, efficient and reliable engines. I do not know where you get your information from but a well maintained Honda engine at 130,000 miles will easily give you over 160psi per cylinder in a compression test and that my friend, is by no means close to being mechanically compromised (I remember testing a 6 months old 505 and getting compression figures of under 156psi on all cylinders!!). Hondas and Toyotas did not just rise to the top for no reason infact, it is not uncommon  to see cars (especially hondas and toyotas) with over 240,000 miles here in the US!!

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Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Ivvie: 10:54am On Feb 13, 2008
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Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by abbyode(m): 4:28pm On Feb 13, 2008
Siena, where are u? we need u to seal this discussion.
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Midas02(m): 11:02pm On Feb 13, 2008
Ivvie,
I was going to just let it go, however I have to say that you obviously do not have a true understanding of what you are saying. Either you lack real world experience or true technical understanding or both! The truth is most of the things you just said have no relevance to the argument and are just car techno-jargon, secondly a good half of it is misinformation and crap!!. It is always easy to spot people who read stuff and do not actually have full experience and knowledge. I interview, spot and fire people like that frequently in my line of business. Now, I do not need to start spelling out my credentials here or anywhere, a full understanding of Internal combustion and automotive engineering concepts and not a book knowledge means I do not need technical jargon to explain stuff, I will bring it down to the level of anybody. People are not idiots even if they do not know much about cars? Understanding the concept and relationship between Torque and Power and engine speed is one of the most difficult to grasp in automotive engineering and I see you don't have it. The constipated and illogical flow of your argument exposes your confusion – to put it nicely!.
Torque = in a car is measured in (ft Ib) foot pounds - this is known and defined as the spin or twist power in other words this measures the magnitude of energy delivered to twist the crankshaft. This could also be referred to as angular acceleration.
Horsepower (HP) = Is the rate of delivery of energy. It is measured as an element of energy for instance 1HP is equals to 33,000ft Ib/min. From this definition it is easy to see that there is a relationship between Horsepower and Torque. The Power output of an engine is expressed as its torque multiplied by its rotational speed. Simply put power is the rate at which energy is transmitted. Power = Torque x Rotational speed!!
When an engine outputs power, it transmits energy in two forms - both torque and Horsepower are generated, however Internal-combustion engines produce useful torque only over a limited range of rotational speeds. Essentially, engines are designed so that most of the torque is generated in the first 1000 - 3000 RPM's and that is where it is most needed to move the mass of a car with credible acceleration. Contrary to what you think, Ivvie, torque is the biggest contributing factor to acceleration. Once the mass of the car has acquired velocity then you have momentum which means that you need less torque and more horsepower to reach and maintain a higher rotational speed.
I have already given step by step and extensive explanation in my preceding statement about how wear occurs inside internal combustion engines. Now you say that my theory about 6 cyl vs 4 cyl rate of wear is wrong and I am going to quote what you said: 
“Your theory of a 6 cylinder being more efficient in longetivity than 4 violates Heat Engines and the Second Law of Thermodynamics with respect to thermal efficiency and work in process of reversible isothermal compression at low temp, reversible adiabatic compression at low temp to high temp, reversible isothermal expansion at high temp to reversible adiabatic expansion from high temperature to low temperature (phases in a closed system).  The fact the pistons in a high output vehicle can withstand the tensile load at continuous high heat of the combustion process, there is enough stress/strain, wear is generated and in most cases elaborated. Higher compression engines run hotter than lower compression engines.  The irony in Honda's is it has only one heat or exothermic system (single enthalpy).  Would the engine still be in shape in a progressive state as its 4 cyl cousin?!  This is called Thermal Stress and Misfits or Prestrain.  This why some cars have blocks or heads that fracture.”

What the heck are you talking about?? These verbose and ostentatious display of gibberish techno-jargon reflects a feeble minded attempt to appear technically vast and knowledgeable but it isn’t going to work here!.  Do you even have any idea what the second law of thermodynamics says?? What does this have to do with rate of wear?? - nothing!!.  For your information the second law of thermodynamics states that: 
“The entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.”
In the layman’s language this means that it is impossible to extract energy by heat from a high-temperature energy source and then convert all of the energy into work. At least some of the energy must be passed on to heat a lower-temperature energy sink. Thus, an engine with 100% efficiency is thermodynamically impossible. It is impossible to convert heat completely into work without loss of energy.  I see you using words like “Exothermic”, “Endothermic” and “Enthalpy” and you simply can’t explain how they affect an engine!. These are all heat related terms that have no bearing whatsoever on the argument you are trying to make. But since you have mentioned heat then I will educate you - most internal combustion engines waste about 36% of the energy in gasoline as heat lost to the cooling system and perhaps another 30% through the exhaust. The rest, 20-25% is used for motion and about 6% is lost to friction - that is what the second law of thermodynamic is about in this context!. Just so that you know – Exothermic refers to systems that give up latent heat and Endothermic is the opposite (it absorbs heat). Enthalpy is simply the heat content measured as the difference between the two!. I hope you get that. Now, you said: 

"Horsepower in a vehicle does not determine how fast your car goes.  As a matter of fact, it is used only 1% of the time you drive.  What determines your response is the amount of torque have and not horsepower.  You only need horsepower when taking off.  When you hot, you trade off horsepower for torque or torque for horsepower.  Horsepower really is the ideal “governor” to engine wear.  Torque doesn’t wear your engine.  The higher the horsepower in a vehicle, the shorter the longetivity and unforgiving if not engineered precisely.” 

Now in pure car-speak (engineering lingo aside), torque is that part of an engine output that will propel you from 0-60 in a few seconds however, anybody that knows cars knows that there is a power curve or power bandwidth within which all engines operate optimally. Which means, depending on how the engineers choose to design and tune the powerplant, there will be a trade off between maximum horsepower and maximum torque. There are obviously other factors for the engineers to consider such as purpose or function of car, transmission delivery method, final drive ratio, gearing ratio and the mass (weight) of the vehicle. As speed builds torque output peaks out and diminishes while horsepower continues to build to the peak of the engine’s power delivery curve. Thus, it is ultimately horsepower that take you to a car’s top speed and partly what enables a car to have mid-range to top-end performance!. This is why say a Bulldozer or CAT engine delivers marginal horsepower ratings but incredibly massive torque (the engine is designed to push, pull or move objects supporting loads of immense proportions, it is however not designed for speed).  However, a sports motorbike engine (e.g Honda CBR 1000FF or Suzuki GSX-R Hayabusa) isn’t tuned for great amounts of torque but it does deliver incredible horsepower for high-end  delivery because they where designed for speed with less mass and load consideration. A car's engine usually has to find a careful balance between the two depending on its purpose.
Now we could go on and on with this argument but I think I have said enough for one day. If you want to understand why engines wear – read my preceding statements. Wear is caused by only one thing Friction!! (which is a direct consequent of motion under load of course – that is why changing your engine oil frequently is so important!).  Your final statement says:
Honda's mechanical limit is 130000 miles.  It doesn't mean it wouldn't run but its designed for that span.  I will have to explain using terms of the Finite Element Method of major drivetrain components and I will not go there.  Toyota is the only japanese car that is designed 10 years or 250000 miles (although the new Camry and worse, the tundra defies the fact). 
I am totally at loss for words when I hear people get grandiloquent and bombastic, using technical terms without a clear understanding as to the meaning! The quoted statement above is such a load of sh*t, where is your information from?, can you show me one technical attestation to back up your Honda claims. Hondas are being used by millions of people all over the world and without going any further they will be the first to tell you that you do not know what you are talking about. "Finite element method of major drivetrain components" - what a load of crap!! - every mechanical device in the world has a finite life expectancy. Anyone reading your statements will see that there is no clear understanding and thought process being expressed. It is just hot air!!

1 Like

Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Gamine(f): 11:13pm On Feb 13, 2008
ye!

see physics o shocked shocked

2 Likes

Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by baby4u2(f): 11:14pm On Feb 13, 2008
just had to say u guys are educated, dont still know anything about auto
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by abbyode(m): 4:03am On Feb 14, 2008
Midas, a beg can u email me one of your manuals? I wish to upgrade my auto knowledge .I can be contacted on abiodunode@yahoo.com.
Thanks.
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by adechuks(m): 7:51am On Feb 14, 2008
Now i know i did not miss anything by not reading Mechanical Engineering.
Everything I need is right here, on this page

Midas, Ivvie,
Fire on ! Grandiloquently !
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Ivvie: 7:59am On Feb 14, 2008
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Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Ivvie: 8:03am On Feb 14, 2008
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Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Seun(m): 8:04am On Feb 14, 2008
What is an "end of discussion"?
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by adechuks(m): 8:22am On Feb 14, 2008
@Seun
"End of Discussion" is the Honda Accord 2003-2005 models

I understand that the 2006 version is known as "The discussion continues"

1 Like

Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by mamaorga(f): 8:51am On Feb 14, 2008
Hmmm two people who are very abreast withe engineering on each other's throat
so which do we pick?
anyway am loving it
i like all the technicalities
keep it up guys
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by delegiwa(m): 8:58am On Feb 14, 2008
What is all these grammer just because someone wanted an advice? And now you guys have succeded in confusing the poor guy the more. Anyway @poster, just go to berger and you will see people who will be more willing to help you instead of these two show offs.
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by mamaorga(f): 9:01am On Feb 14, 2008
@Delegiwa
abi oooooo
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Emperoh(m): 9:09am On Feb 14, 2008
Chei!!! The Discussion don turn to car!! shocked shocked shocked


S I E N A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where U dey now

Abeg come 'End this physicscussion' grin grin grin grin

Seun your banning power has been rendered impotent if you don't tell how many cylinder it is and its Rpm and Bhp cheesy cheesy cheesy cheesy

At least i don learn now!! wink wink No be so grin cool cool grin
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by obua: 9:51am On Feb 14, 2008
Ivie made the 1st blunder and tried to cover it up with theory.
I do not like V6 engines simply because they tend to consume more fuel, but their throttle response is smooth.
Because  they tend to be underworked , they tend to last longer.
In naija, V6 are not liked by our quack mechanics, because they do not know a thing about it.
I guess that it is high time we start formal training of mechanics with input from the likes of Midas, Siena and Ivie

1 Like

Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by astinno(m): 9:52am On Feb 14, 2008
Ivvie  and Midas02. Both of you are missing one important aspect of technical arguments!!!

Quote your references as you make your arguments. That way other mechanical engineers like me  that appreciates your angle of reasoning can check up your reference and better understand you point of view in addition to the fact that references gives more substance to your arguments.
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by cyprianjr(m): 9:55am On Feb 14, 2008
Honda Accord 2003-2005 models

NICKNAME : END OF DISCUSSION OR KOSORO


Ever wonder why Americans love this particular ride?
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Midas02(m): 9:57am On Feb 14, 2008
Dpresident,

I am sorry the entire purpose for your starting this thread has gone to the dogs!. The answer to your question was adequately answered in the first few entries.

Ovvie,

Earlier you said:
Horsepower in a vehicle does not determine how fast your car goes.  As a matter of fact, it is used only 1% of the time you drive.  What determines your response is the amount of torque have and not horsepower.  You only need horsepower when taking off.  When you hot, you trade off horsepower for torque or torque for horsepower.  Horsepower really is the ideal “governor” to engine wear.  Torque doesn’t wear your engine.  The higher the horsepower in a vehicle, the shorter the longitevity and unforgiving if not engineered precisely. 

Then after I had educated you and you had gone back to do some more reading, you now said:
Horsepower is used only 1% of your total driving.  Torque as time derivative of angular momentum (with angular being its rotational speed).  You don't have power without torque in relationship with angular speed.  You cannot have power without torque nor torque without power.  The main factor to which a vehicle picks up speed within speed is torque and not horsepower [((torque)(angular momentum) / (5252)) = power].  This is the basic horsepower.  Horsepower is categorised to 4 groups in automotive with 4 different derivations.

Well, are you going to keep changing your mind about what you think torque and horsepowers are responsible for??. Cos last time I checked the fundamental laws of physics and mechanics hadn't changed.

It is ok for you to continue to blow hot air! I personally feel a little too old and too busy for this, however my dialogue with you has led me to an inevitable but interesting conclusion - you are one of those guys who is more interested in appearing good rather than getting some real knowledge and correction. Nothing you have said so far makes much sense nor do they support your arguement. Anybody could cut and paste from physics textbooks but the actual test is in the sound understanding and logical presentation of what you know. Much of your statements are incoherent gibberish being thrown out there in a tirade of misguided and bombastic pomp!! Lets face it - you know squat! - you are either a wannabe or you are still in school. Hopefully, someday you will read your statements and have a hearty laugh!

I still look forward to you presenting us here with some credible proof and attestations alluding to your claims about Honda engines being designed for only 130,000 miles and Toyotas for 250,000 miles. And for the records, textbooks don't always cover one's ineptitude but modesty does! Have a nice one.
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by webmaster3: 10:33am On Feb 14, 2008
This is physics in action. Mehn you guys are Professors. Abeg my car (Honda Accord 1996 model (Bulldog)) dey show check engine light what could be the problem.
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Ivvie: 10:44am On Feb 14, 2008
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Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Ivvie: 10:52am On Feb 14, 2008
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Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Ivvie: 11:01am On Feb 14, 2008
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Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Midas02(m): 11:02am On Feb 14, 2008
Ast inno,
Quotation of references is a very good way of making headway in the presentation of a concept that is either new, untested or cutting edge (not yet universally accepted or understood). However, what we argued about is common, everyday, old school, physics and mechanics. The facts can be cross checked and deduced by anybody who has the slightest inclination in science and mechanics. If I state the fact that flying from Abuja to Lagos takes an hour, I am sure nobody will be ask me to quote my references. In the same way, the facts I pointed out above are plain old standard facts that has been established since before I came into being. How a so called "super experienced!, ASE trained engineer and designer!" does not grasp it is beyond me!
Re: Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4? by Ivvie: 11:10am On Feb 14, 2008
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