Thanks for Kunle raising up Heb 7: 5 - 28 in the other flagged post

Check this out: Heb 7: 5 - 28

5And it is true that those descendants of Levi who are charged with the priestly office are commanded in the Law to take tithes from the people--which means, from their brethren--though these have descended from Abraham.
6But this person who has not their Levitical ancestry received tithes from Abraham [himself] and blessed him who possessed the promises [of God].

8[b]Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received by men who are subject to death[/b]; while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually].
9A person might even say that Levi [the father of the priestly tribe] himself, who received tithes (the tenth), paid tithes through Abraham,

Also Levi paid Tithe because he was still part of Abraham when Melchizedek met Abraham.

10For he was still in the loins of his forefather [Abraham] when Melchizedek met him [Abraham].

11[b]Now if perfection (a perfect fellowship between God and the worshiper) had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood--for under it the people were given the Law--why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest[/b], one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order and rank of Aaron?



12[b]For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is of necessity an alteration of the law [concerning the priesthood] as well.[/b]
13[b]For the One of Whom these things are said belonged [not to the priestly line but] to another tribe, no member of which has officiated at the altar[/b].

14For it is obvious that our Lord sprang from the tribe of Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe.

15And this becomes more plainly evident when another Priest arises Who bears the likeness of Melchizedek, †1
16Who has been constituted a Priest, not on the basis of a bodily legal requirement [an externally imposed command concerning His physical ancestry], but on the basis of the power of an endless and indestructible Life.
17For it is witnessed of Him, You are a Priest forever after the order (with the rank) of Melchizedek. †2
18[b]So a previous physical regulation and command is cancelled because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness[/b]--
19[b]For the Law never made anything perfect[/b]--but instead a better hope is introduced through which we [now] come close to God.


Now before anyone start, I'm not saying Old testament shouldn't be in the Bible, but the same Bible says we're ministers of the New Testament, and that the letters of the old testaments killeth and brings veil on people's eyes when they read it today.

2 Cor 3:6 - 17 (AMP)

6[It is He] Who has qualified us [making us to be fit and worthy and sufficient] as ministers and dispensers of a new covenant [of salvation through Christ], not [ministers] of the letter (of legally written code) but of the Spirit; for the code [of the Law] kills, but the [Holy] Spirit makes alive. †2
7Now if the dispensation of death engraved in letters on stone [the ministration of the Law], was inaugurated with such glory and splendor that the Israelites were not able to look steadily at the face of Moses because of its brilliance, [a glory] that was to fade and pass away, †3
8Why should not the dispensation of the Spirit [this spiritual ‡2 ministry whose task it is to cause men to obtain and be governed by the Holy Spirit] be attended with much greater and more splendid glory?
9For if the service that condemns [the ministration of doom] had glory, how infinitely more abounding in splendor and glory must be the service that makes righteous [the ministry that produces and fosters righteous living and right standing with God]!
10Indeed, in view of this fact, what once had splendor [ ‡3 the glory of the Law in the face of Moses] has come to have no splendor at all, because of the overwhelming glory that exceeds and excels it [ ‡for the glory of the Gospel in the face of Jesus Christ].
11For if that which was but passing and fading away came with splendor, how much more must that which remains and is permanent abide in glory and splendor!
12Since we have such [glorious] hope (such joyful and confident expectation), we speak very freely and openly and fearlessly.
13Nor [do we act] like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze upon the finish of the vanishing [splendor which had been upon it].
14[b]In fact, their minds were grown hard and calloused [they had become dull and had lost the power of understanding]; for until this present day, when the Old Testament (the old covenant) is being read, that same veil still lies [on their hearts], not being lifted [to reveal] that in Christ it is made void and done away.[/b]
15[b]Yes, down to this [very] day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their minds and hearts.[/b]
16But whenever a person turns [in repentance] to the Lord, the veil is stripped off and taken away.
17[b]Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (emancipation from bondage, freedom)[/b]. †4

So Guys, in as much as I'm not saying paying tithe is wrong, I know very well that God wouldn't destroy me for not paying it. He himself told me the letters of the old testament kills, and that I'm a minister of the New testament , a testament of the glorification of Christ in me, and also the demonstration of the Holy Spirit (God's Spirit) at work in me.

So for those who still want to live under the shadows of the law (Malachi 3); please carry on, you might just add burning of rams, goats, incense, lambs to the list. Afterall the Levites did those things in those days, abi now?

It is really fun to see Christians,talk back and forth like babies, instead of us teaching and learning of each other, we speak not from what we have learnt from God but from what our pastors have told us we should learn, the christians in Galatians,barbarians as they were when ever they were thought they went back and studied to see if what they were taught is true, that one does not need any revelation by the holy spirit, Kunle raised a very good topic with strong biblical background, no be say him talk from him head ohhh, scriptures where quoted, these scriptures back the guy ohh na from the bible, before i say more please give me 5 scriptures backing 10% tithes paying to the church from your incomewhat is the meaning of meat in the house of the lord, please study, kunle good one

@kunleOshob

Guy! l must confess this ur revelation is long awaited. l have always have this feeling that there is something wrong in this tithing thing. There was a time l even stopped paying because some branch pastors were caught up in the act of not accounting for tithes they collected. Sometimes, l feel l should give it to the needy but l kinda feel guity. Recently what l do is that l don't pay my tithe in one church. l divide my tithe into 4 parts and pay each sunday and if l happen to be in another chuirch on invitation, well, l will pay one part there.

But now l know better , thanks to you. l have taken note of the passages you quoted and will study them very well to be sure of what l am doing. Something tells me you are not far from the truth thoh. l hope other xtaina get to read this extract so they won't be fooled anymore.

Thank you once again for opening my eyes to this because from now on, l will spend my tithe also on widows and orphans and when l marry will judiciously practice gathering our tithes and enjoy it in God's presence with my family.

May God bless you

Revelation 22:18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book"

@KunleOsho @nwando

Please, Please, Please, I've gone to study more and more of these passages. I've prayed but still no conviction that God will Curse me If I give into Offering and NOT tithe.

While I continue to pray and await the Spirit's conviction, could you please provide your own take on these:

- Could the "O you Sons of Jacob", in Malachi 3:6 possibly not be referring to all the house of Jacob and not the Levites/Priests to be specific. I know so many things have been said concerning this point here, but I still can't get that conviction that verse 6 wasn't contigous all the way to verse 9.

- Could it be possible that the "For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law." in Heb 7:12 be reffering to a "restructing" in the law ,  in that we now don't have to go through the Levites and Sons of Aaron to get our Tithes to God. Another Argument is that verse 12 simply means our Tithes now go directly to God, since Christ has died and broken the barrier between us and God. So, we don't have to go through the Aarons and Levites to offer our Tithe to God. Although verse 8 says setting aside of the former laws, could setting means alteration in the sense of the way our tithes go to God, ie. not through the Levites n Aarons anymore, ie. through the modern day pastors/churches.


I know understand what Tithe is, I know it's definately not money, becuase people earn them those days and still don't "pay" money. But, it will be nice if you can help discuss these points Bro. I'm also trying to get my head round the fact of why Christ never paid tithe, and why the early Christians never did; at least their was no record in the Bible they did. Only that Christ mentioned Pharisees which were doing the Mosaic Laws deligently, and Christ was like: (Matt 23:23)
"It was right to do these, and not to have leftthose aside." GLT;
"These are the important things you should have done, though you should not have left the others undone either. " CEV;
"You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave undone the more important things. " NLT; - Could it be that Christ was trying to say , TITHING is not the issue although commendable, but the ISSUE and the REQUIRED THING were in the MORE IMPORTANT THINGS.
"You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You keep meticulous account books, tithing on every nickel and dime you get, but on the meat of God's Law, things like fairness and compassion and commitment--the absolute basics!-you carelessly take it or leave it. Careful bookkeeping is commendable, but the basics are required. " THE MESSAGE

Let me pause here , Christ actually said Careful Bookkeeping is Commendable, not that it's REQUIRED ie. COMPULSORY , only the BASICS(in another version, the weigthier things of the LAW) are REQUIRED.

Also, I feel TITHING was commendable because it was part of the 613 Mosaic laws and Christ was very careful not to abolish the Laws in his days, However, he did engage some of the ridiculous ones. But after his Death, after he paid the price (once and for all) the Laws, a New ORDER (Testimony) came into force. Heb 7:18 said the former laws were set aside! No WONDER the early Christians never paid TITHE (whether 500 years after Christ's Death or Not); there is no record in the Bible that they did.

Having said all these, not only Christ but also the early Apostles preached about giving:

2 Cor 9: 6-7
6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.

There are other plenty verses after the Death of Christ where Giving unto the needy was mostly stressed. I'm still digging to find where "TITHING" equate the so much COMPULSION it enjoys today. Even Christ himself taught about giving as in Thanksgiving and Offering, Christ after healing a man with leprosy in Luke 5:12, in verse 14, Christ himself gave charge:
"And He charged him to tell no one, "But go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as a testimony to them, just as Moses commanded."
The word OFFERING here comes from the greek Prosphero, and it means "to bring a present or a thing, to reach or hand a thing to one"

In a nutshell, If you TITHE, Thank God for you , But some believe Christ died once and for all the former laws. I mean, the Bible even said this in Heb 7, check out verse 18 , so, if you still think the TITHE is a commendable adaptation of the old ORDER, that's fine , afterall, EVERYONE with their own Faith and Believe, isn't that What this Christianity is all about in the first place? But, WHAT I HATE MOST is well people tell me, You're Cursed if you don't pay TITHE, as in God will punish you, and raise all the bad experiences in life on you, if you don't pay TITHE as you believed from the NEW ORDERS that Christ as paid for all those things , ONCE AND FOR ALL

If you pay TiTHE, please continue, as long as you believe in it
If you don't pay TITHE, please you're not CURSED

According to Christ himself, TITHE is commendable (as part of the Law before his death); BUT ONLY THE WEIGHTIER THINGS OF THE LAW ARE REQUIRED! & Ofcourse we all know Tithing is not part of the Weigthier parts of the Law.

Cheers

anonimi:

Dear Allta,

Kindly note from your quote that Jesus Christ was referring to the Pharisees & scribes, as the ones to pay tithes.
The correct identification of those to pay tithes on God's altar is also confirmed in Malachi 1:

6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the Lord of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the Lord is contemptible.
8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the Lord of hosts.
9 And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the Lord of hosts.
10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand.
11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.
12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the Lord is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.
13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the Lord of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the Lord.
14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the Lord of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.

Kindly go through the whole Malachi to see who God was referring to in the oft-quoted, much-abused Malachi 3: 8-12.

Allta,

Did you see my earlier response above? May I humbly suggest you read through Malachi completely. Let us all strive to be Bible scholars as we are enjoined to be.

I have read every post and one thing that strikes me is the need for objective thinking and also the ability to listen, think about what you have read then reply on the part of some posters (detruth most notably, sorry but sometimes u sound like a fundamentalist/extremist). Kunle never said people should not pay tithes, all he asks is that pastors stop forcing their congregation to pay with the fear that those that don’t pay it are under a curse or are stealing from God.

Guys think about it, I think what God really wanted was a society where everybody was taken care of, where everybody (rich or poor) has food to eat and is happy and content.
The Levites, priest, widows and the less privileged in society get enough to get by (not the scandalous wealth flashed by our mega pastors these days) because they are given tithes once in every three yrs.

Imagine a Nigeria where every 3 yrs everybody (including the Jim Ovias’ and Dangotes etc) gives a tenth of their earnings to the less privileged, priests/pastors etc, we would have no poor people in this country. That was God’s vision, think about it
I think the Core message here is love and a giving spirit to people who truely need it.

Look around you, who needs your tithe more, the pastor being driven around in a hummer and flown in helicopters or the poor guy on the street begging for a meal.
Guys, please let us be moved by love and compassion rather than fear of curses.

@anonimi
Allta,

Did you see my earlier response above? May I humbly suggest you read through Malachi completely. Let us all strive to be Bible scholars as we are enjoined to be.

Yes, I do, if I don't wanna be a Bible scholar, I wouldn't be pushing for more exposition. I am open to learning more and more, and have taken what you mentioned on board.

Acutally, I'm not 100% with KunleOsho, on everything. eg. I sincerely still strugle with the fact that Malachi wasn't written for all the House of Jacob.

This is because when Malachi started writing that book, he directed it at "Isreal" , the people, and in Chapter 2, he quickly spoke of the "(High) Priests" and then was chastising using Judah as example from verse 10 - 11. I believe from verse 13, Malachi refocused his letter at the poeple of Isreal, and started using "YOU", "YOU", "YOU" & "YOUR". This he carried onto Chapter 3 - which is one of the quoted Old Testament Scriptures in our days. Having said that, why wasn't this scripture , if so so REQUIRED, wasn't quoted like other scriptures were in the time of Christ and the early apostles?

Anyway, back to Malachi, if you examine the context of verse 1, He was actually speaking to some group of people (I believe the House of Jacob , Isrealites) and then he told them, that God will send his messenger which will prepare the way before him. He went on in verse two by saying, but who will endure the coming of the Lord? ofcourse KunleOsho can't say ths messenger is meant for only the levites or the priests. Because they were not the only ones "seeking" this Lord , this change from what they're seeing.

EVERYONE was seeking the Lord, and the messenger of the covenant they had desired, could it be that those messengers then does what they didn't desire? And Malachi went on saying, who will witstand the days of his coming. He even said, he who was to come (like fire and soap) will refine the Levites.

NOW STOP HERE!

The verse 3 to verse 5 actually supports what Kunle has been saying all day about Malachi 3:6-12; Before I start, notice I began by saying Malachi wrote for all Isrealites which includes the Priests, Levites, Judah and all Jerusalem.

BUT CHECK THIS OUT ,

Verse 3 says this messenger will REFINE the Levites, as in the you can only be REFINE if you're IMPURE right? it didn't say he who was coming was to REFINE ALL ISREAL

He Then said, after this REFINEMENT Process, the LORD will have men bring offerings in righteousness. And then the Offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, AS IN THE DAYS GONE BY, AS IN FORMER YEARS

Although literally, the OFFERINGS (with an S) that was being talked about here originated from the Hebrew word: "Minchah" literally meaning "gift, tribute, offering, present, oblation, sacrifice, meat offering, grain offering"; But notice the S at the end of these , mean many offerings or in other words all kinds of OFFERING.

BUT, just not to deviate, I've mentioned that "FROM MALACHI 3:3&4" that it was the LEVITES that needs refinement, right? Only then can all OFFERINGS be acceptable unto God. So, the question is, why do LEVITES need REFINEMENT and not Judah , even it was acclaimed in Chapter 2 that Judah was wayward, he did unbearable things , but then LEVITES are the ones to be REFINED by the coming messenger , in my opinion simple , BECAUSE LEVITES DOES SOME THINGS JUDAH CAN'T , TITHE & OFFERING COLLECTION. & They need to be REFINED from their bad ways of defrauding the labourers of their wages!

Check out Verse 5 (which is the leading verse to the most quoted old testament verse in 6): "Then I will draw near to you for judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me," says the LORD of hosts.

REMEMBER THAT I said, I believe Malachi was writtten concerning, as in to the Isrealites, but God had to mention he will send a messenger which they have desired, and that there will be purification of the Levites , only then will their OFFERINGS WILL be acceptable.

In verse 5, I believe this was still written concerning all Isreal, because I can't for once imagine that the Levites are also the sorcerers, that they are also the adulterers, that they swear falsely, BUT they could be those who Oppress the WAGE earner in his wages, right? remember I used the word COULD! ok, maybe they're widows, orphans, and they turn aside foreigners not to fear God , ACTUALLY, I don't see the priests or the LEVITES being all THESE. But I believe the bits which has to do with Oppress the wage earner in his wages refers to them not acruing unto the PRIESTS their dues. Why will I believe such , because of what was written in verse 3 about ONLY THE PURIFICATION OF LEVITES , and this is the ONLY THING WE KNOW OF LEVITES , THEY COLLECT TITHE AND OFFERING.

Ofcourse, I've only been writing in the CONTEXT of MALACHI as a BOOK WRITTEN UNTO ISREAL (from verse 1)

Now I believe, God verse 6 and 7 is written unto the whole Isreal, After reading this properly, I believe 8 and 9 is also written unto Isreal, "The whole Nation of YOU" can't 100% be referring to just a lineage, as in Family, A NATION is a collection of people, families, lineages who dwell in a region. But how did God asked them to make amends: verse 10, "BRING THE WHOLE TITHE INTO THE STOREHOUSE", WHY? , "SO THAT THERE MAY BE FOOD IN HIS HOUSE"; As long As there is FOOD in God's House, I believe that's all that matters in this context. Remember "People (whichever you interprete it)" were ROBBING GOD, not ONLY IN TITHES! but also OFFERINGS! verse 8b

NOW, Malachi continues to write using the "YOU" "YOU" "YOU", he has been doing this even after he chastised the Priests in the early verses of Malachi 2. NOW in verse 14 & 15, he used YOU again, and then say: "THE PEOPLE" he was referring to as "YOU" asked what have we done to you , and that "It is futile to serve God, What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the LORD"?

NOW WaIT a second , assuming the YOU all along refers only to the levites, the big question, is why is it in verse 17 God said "In the day when I make up my treaseured possession, I will spare them , ie. those who serve God" A scroll of remembrance was signed concerning them in verse 16, and in verse 18 , God promised that when he takes up his treasured possession, "YOU will again see the distinction between the RIGTHEOUS and the WICKED, THOSE who serve God and THOSE WHO DON'T"

My view and understanding so far is that, the God couldn't have spared just the LEVITES, I believe he was referring to the Isrealites, the House of Jacob, when he was saying he will spare those WHO SERVE HIM, and THOSE WHO ARE RIGHTEOUS in Him.

So, in Conclusion, Malachi is written mostly concerning everyone, although he did chastised the Priests, and established the need for the PURIFICATION of the LEVITES before the sacrifice can be acceptable unto God. Malachi also in my own view, said the House of Jacob was robbing him of TITHES and OFFERINGS, not only TITHES! So, please only TITHE Shouldn't enjoy the so much COMPULSION.

Now I've been speaking  all along from Malachi just to establish what I think of it. If I now move away from Malachi back to Deut 14, it was established of what TITHE is and how to pay it in Deut, no Controversy about that. Also the old testament established TITHE as part of the MOSAIC LAWS ,  I think there are over 500 of those laws.

Also quickly zooming into New Testament, Jesus did mention TITHE in the context of telling the Pharisees that it's not the COMPULSORY THING, in Christ's own words ,  "It's commendable"; but the Much more important things are REQUIRED!

Obviously Christ was still alive then, and the some of the Laws were still being upheld, actually, he did challenged some, I wonder how long he would have taken him to challenge every of those 613 laws. But those aren't the reason why he came ,  "I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly" God kind of Life.

But after his death, I believed all was fulfilled ,  the LAW, the Mosaic Law I believe is a mirage of the NEW ORDER  that came after Christ's Death. Heb 7 explained this, these are not my words ,  verse 12: For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

AND verse 18 more clearly: 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Having said all these, Christ's ministry never taught on TITHING AND HOW TO DO IT OR IF IT WAS REQUIRED OR COMPULSORY, neither did the Apostles; even it was discovered that 500 years after his Death, the Christians didn't pay this TITHE, ok maybe you don't want to believe that statement. But I believe you believe the Bible which never recorded early Christians paying TITHE after the DEATH of CHRIST.

So, the BIG Question is, when and how and why DID TITHE CREEP INTO HIS CHURCH with SUCH COMPULSION AND REQUIREMENT TO BEING A CHRISTIAN. If it's NOT COMPULSORY For the EARLY CHRISTIANS, WHY IS IT TODAY? WHY DIDN't the EARLY CHRISTIANS get CURSED, or why wasn't it RECORDED THAT THEY ARE CURSED? or WHY wasn't it RECORDED THAT THEY PAY TITHE or were TAUGHT TO? WHY DID WE HAVE ACCOUNTS OF OFFERING AND THANKSGIVING Taught and Encouraged to the CHURCH by CHRIST, and WHY HE NEVER DID ENCOURAGE THOSE HE HEALED TO PAY TITHE? HE ACTUALLY ASKED THEM TO DO OFFERING, WHY WHY WHY!!!!

TITHING IS GOOD IF YOU GIVE IT
BUT IT's NOT A REQUIREMENT AND COMPULSION
IF IT IS THANKSGIVING, GIVE
IF IT IS TITHE, GIVE
IF IT IS OFFERING, GIVE
IF YOU CAN DO THE 3, FANTASTIC, but DO WILLINGLY
IF YOU CAN DO 2, GREAT, but DO WILLINGLY
IF YOU CAN DO 1, BEAUTIFUL, but DO WILLINGLY

God Loves a Cheerful Giver, and wants us to give willingly and not forcefully or with fear, ie. with fear that he's going to Curse us IF WE DON'T GIVE ONE of THOSE

SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES, and HOLD ON TO THAT WHICH IS TRUE ,  The Truth is GOD will not PUNISH me if I DO 3 out of 3, or 2 out of 3, and God will noT PUNISH me if I DO 1 out of 3 ,  As long as there is food in the storehouse for pastors, needy, orphans, foreigners, widows to be fine with.

JUST GIVE FROM YOUR HEART ,  whatever you feel like or are happy with ,  DON'T LET ANYONE DEFRAUD OR BAMBOOZO YOU, God doesn't Need or EAT your Money , & will never curse you if you don't give him anything to NEED or EAT; the Poor in Spirit are the ones who do, the motherless babies, the widows, orphans, the needies, foreigners in our lands eg. the missionaries, the less privileged and ofcourse including our Pastors (Not Pastors who drive HUMMER JEEPS while workers in Church can't afford to pay rent in 8months) , BUT DO THESE OUT OF LOVE, OUT OF FREE-WILL, NOT OUT OF FEAR!

GIVE AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN UNTO YOU, SOW and you shall REAP ,  these are Christ's Teachings not mine! Simple law of Harvests!

Hello @ all, poster, replies and onlookers,

I read the original post and all replies and responses over the past few days before i make this submission. I will not copy any Bible verse here b'cos that has been extensively done by poster et al; I will only reference a few of the books and verses.

1. The intention of the poster is clearly stated in the original post(read it) i.e. the current day GENERAL teaching about tithe and tithing does not conform to a balanced reading and understanding of scriptures. See Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Malachi, Hebrew 7, 1 Tim 3-6

2. Tighting sorry tithing is no longer a requirement or obligation for christians. Hebrew 7

3. Nobody stands condemned for  paying tithe today but they deserve to know the truth according to scripture

4. He condemns in the strongest terms todays men of God who teach and preach compulsory tithing to their members by often quoting only a portion of a book Malachi 3 with woe attached to not conforming and by omission or commission most don't teach Deuteronomyand Hebrews etc and drawing a conclusion clear to the average Xtian

5 In addition, the poster has not prescribed a certain percentage that must be paid or NOT to be paid. He has stressed giving without compulsion (read as compulsory) as is widely taught today about tithe.

6. At times he betrays his irritation by his own aadmissionto some replies that are usually not well thought out by some replies which i also see as wishy washy assertions with no basis in scripture.


@ Alta i like the way you are seeking answers to the book of Malachi verse by verse trying to decode if the message is directed to Levities alone, or the whole of Israel as a nation. I had that strugglealso and i understand b'cos that is the only potent weapon wielded by our modern day 'Levites' . if you can prove that the message is to Levites alone the only weapon in their arsenal would have been destroyed and the doctrine of tithe will completely collapse. However if the message is to all and can be proven they (Tithe preachers) will still have some straw to cling to.
But read Hebrews 7 and 1 Timothy 6 and the one on how to give as a christian (meanwhile there is no single christian ('born again or otherwise in the Old testament). I am NOT aware of where Jesus Christ claim descent from tribe of Levi - the only people authorised by God to collect tithe. I don't understand by any twist of imagination how my current or past Pastor could have descended from that Israeli tribe ( they've all been black like me except for one who is an albino from Delta state!) If Jesus is not qualified to demand or collect tithes how come my Pastor?

But by all means give to the work of God and the propagation thereof as laid in your heart and as needed by the church, don't neglect obvoius needs in your community and say i have paid my tithe so all will be well with ME, that is absolute selfishness. we are encouraged to minister to the needs of one another according the means availale to us and our abilities. Anybody who is not giving need not be forced by false doomsday preaching.

Well said, my friend.

DippThinka:

I have read every post and one thing that strikes me is the need for objective thinking and also the ability to listen, think about what you have read then reply on the part of some posters (detruth most notably, sorry but sometimes u sound like a fundamentalist/extremist). Kunle never said people should not pay tithes, all he asks is that pastors stop forcing their congregation to pay with the fear that those that don’t pay it are under a curse or are stealing from God.

Guys think about it, I think what God really wanted was a society where everybody was taken care of, where everybody (rich or poor) has food to eat and is happy and content.
The Levites, priest, widows and the less privileged in society get enough to get by (not the scandalous wealth flashed by our mega pastors these days) because they are given tithes once in every three years.

Imagine a Nigeria where every 3 years everybody (including the Jim Ovias’ and Dangotes etc) gives a tenth of their earnings to the less privileged, priests/pastors etc, we would have no poor people in this country. That was God’s vision, think about it
I think the Core message here is love and a giving spirit to people who truely need it.

Look around you, who needs your tithe more, the pastor being driven around in a hummer and flown in helicopters or the poor guy on the street begging for a meal.
Guys, please let us be moved by love and compassion rather than fear of curses.

@Dippthinka

I totally agree wt you.

Quote
One man believes has conviction that the payment of tithes is mandatory while another man is having his own conviction that it is not.
This to me is not enough reason to be confronting one another with malicious words in a forum like this.
The TRUTH of the matter is sipmly that the LAW OF TITHING does not apply to XTIANITY. However, if any xtian chooses to be paying 10% of his income to God via church/pastor, he will surely reap God's blessings for so doing.
People should also note that Matthew 23:23 earlier on referred to by some people in this forum, which they also interpreted to mean that Jesus "commended the Pharisees for paying tithes and rebuked them for omitting or failing to do the weightier matter of the law" was as at the period the law was still in operation. Jesus,therefore, would not object in anyway the payment of tithes or tell people to stop paying tithes because the people then were still operating under the OLD TESTAMENT and it is also a form of giving to God/men.
THE NEW TESTAMENT/CHRISTIANITY began after the death of Jesus Christ- our Testator- on the cross. Then the law and the curses of the law ceased to operate beacuse we now have the fulfilment of the law in JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

BELOW IS MY SUBMISSION ABOUT THIS TOPIC:

* The leaders of the early church ( born after the death of Jesus Christ,pricesely on the day of penticost in the Acts of Apostles) never at any time placed/read curses on believers for not paying tithes but ENCOURAGED BELIEVERS TO GIVE GENEROUSLY TO GOD & GOD'S PEOPLE without compulsion but out of a willing heart because they new that the more you give,whether 5%,10%,15%,20% , , the more you recieve God's blessing: ", he who sows sparingly,shall reap sparingly, he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully, "
Therefore, let all our fathers in the Lord,pastors/church leaders, stop pronouncing/reading curses to the congregation of God's people on the issue of tithing but rather encourage believers to give generously ang cheerfully " , for God loves a cheerful giver."
* Let those who have been faithful/regular payer of tithes keep it up while seeing this practice as a devotion/service/worship to God rather than something they must observed by compulsion if they are to evade the curse attached to it by the law.
* Let those who have been hiding under the umbrella of the saying that "xtians are not mandated to pay tithes" and as a result are being stingy as in not fulfilling their financial obligations to their pastors/church, go and pray that God should forgive them for such attitude of ingratitude to God & men.
* Let everyone go and learn to give generously,cheerfully( not because of curses), and bountifully to God's works, pastors, orphans, widows, and the needy. They will surely reap bountifully. ", he that sows sraringly shall reap sraringly, and he that sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully."
* Let every xtian learn to read GOD'S WORD without PUTTING ON RELIGIOUS GOGGLE: Read the Bible with an open mind and stop reading to criticise/judge other xtians because we are not called to criticise/judge one another.
Thanks.


Enough said. I don't think there is any need to over flog this tithing issue. The topic had been very educative and informative and i for one has really learnt from it. I don't think any further arguement will add value, rather, the law of diminishing returns is likely to set in.
Dammy4U had said it all in the above quote. Any other arguement is a waste of time and effort.
As far as i can see, both sides have come to an agreement. I say this because, if we're not arguing for any one of the following statements:

1. Tithing is a sin
or
2. Tithing is mandatory and non payment will result in curses and absence of blessings from God

then we don't have an arguement

@ Dammy4U

Thank you for your matured and spirit filled contribution. It couldn't have been said any better.

@ all

I wish you all more understanding of the word of God and the spirit and grace of not just being hearers of the word but doers as well.

@roughlen
Thanx for your objective contribution, really i don' t have a problem with people giving any percentage of their income towards God's work, what annoys me is the deception and deliberate manipulation of the word of God by people who are supposed to be men of God all in the pursuit of material gain. I am not out to stop people from "giving" what i am set out to do is to enlighten people about the real truth about tithes. if after they know the truth they still decide to "tithe" of their own free will, all well and good. but the church should stop intimidating people to tithe. I still cannot rationalize how the church as an instituition that is supposed to be exemplary can degenerate to be duping people of their hard earned income all in the name of tithes which is clearly not required of christians. It is my belief that if people like me who have discovered the truth about tithes spread this knowledge to other christians and the knowledge is wide spread amongst christians, pastors would think twice before mis- representing the word of God to their congregation in the name of tithes. What these greedy pastors are capitalizing on is the weak knowledge of the word of God by most christians. Once this knowledge spreads, people would be liberated. "PEOPLE PERISH FOR LACK OF THIS KNOWLEDGE"

The truth is that, thiting is not only the old testament issue, it is also been commanded in the new testament by Jesus christ in matthew 23 v 23 . "woe unto you, scribes and pharisees, hyprocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement,mercy,and faith:these ought you to do,not leave the other undone.(NOTE: and not leave the other undone i.e not undo thiting.)
One additional important point I will like to make is tthat thiting is for the payer advantage, it is not a compulsion,it is a covenant between God and man. God covenanted that when we do it we shall be bless and devourer shall be rebuke for our sake.However any body that think it is only for the isrealits or the levits should not also claime some blessing in the old testament e.g call upon me and I will answere you, no weapon formed aginst me shall prosper e. t . c. I think why most of us regret of paying tithe or why we are not been bless when we pay our thite is because of the place( the church) we pay it. their is always a divine appointed place to pay thite and offering if we want to be bless. it now depend upon us to locate that appointed places. what I mean by appoited places are churches being pastor by God appointed servants and not exploiter so call pastors.
Hence thiting is not only old testament issue.

@ Bolasunmi,
did u ever consider the context in which Jesus spoke with the Pharisees?Do u know that when Jesus was on earth the Mosaic Law was still operational?Do u also know that the death of Jesus brought an end to the Law? Have u ever wondered how tithing was being done in the past?Have u ever asked yourself whether Jesus,His disciples ever tithed?Have u ever studied the Acts of the Apostles to see how the early church organised itself?
Please enlighten us more on the type of church to pay tithes to

bolasunmi:

The truth is that, thiting is not only the old testament issue, it is also been commanded in the new testament by Jesus christ in matthew 23 v 23 . "woe unto you, scribes and pharisees, hyprocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement,mercy,and faith:these ought you to do,not leave the other undone.(NOTE: and not leave the other undone i.e not undo thiting.)
One additional important point I will like to make is tthat thiting is for the payer advantage, it is not a compulsion,it is a covenant between God and man. God covenanted that when we do it we shall be bless and devourer shall be rebuke for our sake.However any body that think it is only for the isrealits or the levits should not also claime some blessing in the old testament e.g call upon me and I will answere you, no weapon formed aginst me shall prosper e. t . c. I think why most of us regret of paying tithe or why we are not been bless when we pay our thite is because of the place( the church) we pay it. their is always a divine appointed place to pay thite and offering if we want to be bless. it now depend upon us to locate that appointed places. what I mean by appoited places are churches being pastor by God appointed servants and not exploiter so call pastors.
Hence thiting is not only old testament issue.

It's so sad, the church doesn't practise christianity any more

@ Kunle
I really appreciate you for starting this thread and bringing enlightenment to Christians who have been in the dark concerning this "modern day" tithe issue. You and others have proven beyond any reasonable doubt dat tithing is not required of us as christians and is therefore, not mandatory.
Thank God that those arguing for tithing (having tried fruitlessly to defend their arguement) have shifted grounds and agreed that it is not compulsory to pay tithes neither is it a requirement for getting blessings from God, and they have also agreed that no punishment is reserved for non-tithers.
It is for these reasons, and for the fact that you have said it time and time again that you are not against tithing as a from of giving to the church, that i called for an end to this arguement.
It is pointless to keep repeating yourself over and over again. A word, they say, is enough for the wise.
I share your views 100%.

@KunleOshob, It is either you are suffering from a mental disease or a sick person.
You're a disgrace to christianity.
You are telling Christians not to pay tithe because you think the pastor or preacher will eat their money.
Make una no mind am o.

disease:

@KunleOshob, It is either you are suffering from a mental disease or a sick person.
You're a disgrace to christianity.
You are telling Christians not to pay tithe because you think the pastor or preacher will eat their money.
Make una no mind am o.

come to think of it who eats the money, part of the tithe monies is used to pay pastors kids school fees, and some pastor kids even collect money from them parents and spend it on stuff like clubbing, them de spend money for heaven, man shine ur eyes all tithes are spent here on earth.

Bros, you too must be suffering from the same illness. Go and meet your pastor for healing.

disease:

Bros, you too must be suffering from the same illness. Go and meet your pastor for healing.

do i sound like some one who would follow pastor, that word doesnt exist in my dictionary, for ur information am catholic and the only men of God i know are reverend fathers, bishops and the pope.

Hi Roughlen,

Roughlen:

You and others have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that tithing is not required of us as christians and is therefore, not mandatory.

There is not a single type of "giving" in the NT that is required or mandatory. Often times, people switch onto something else that was never said in Scripture and make it a "requirement, command, mandate," etc. whereas it was not taught as such. Any believer who doesn't want to give in anyway should feel free of their conscience to keep their pennies - it is not mandatory.

Roughlen:

Thank God that those arguing for tithing (having tried fruitlessly to defend their arguement) have shifted grounds and agreed that it is not compulsory to pay tithes neither is it a requirement for getting blessings from God,

I was one who consistently discussed the veracity of tithes and other types of giving in the NT - I never "shifted" my grounds at any time, nor did I speculate about tithes as a mandatory profession in the NT.

Roughlen:

and they have also agreed that no punishment is reserved for non-tithers.

That may be so; but no one can argue against the fact that givers are never treated in Scripture the same as "withholders".

Roughlen:

It is for these reasons, and for the fact that you have said it time and time again that you are not against tithing as a from of giving to the church, that i called for an end to this arguement.

Aiight! If non-tithers are not against tithing, what is the bother to have argued against it at all?

Roughlen:

It is pointless to keep repeating yourself over and over again. A word, they say, is enough for the wise.

The repetition ad hominem underscores the restlessness we often feel about a subject, which in itself is a good sign - because it forces the person who draws a hasty conclusion to go back and study his ideas again.

@idupaul, even better. Go and meet your reverend for prayers. This illness is getting serious.

I attended a church recently (Free Church of Scotland), it's a pentecostal church but there was no preaching/praying about offerings and there was no time set aside for offerings. There was a box outside into which anyone could at anytime before, during or after the service put any offering if they felt giving offering/tithes.

I was very impressed with that system.

The sermon was about living for Christ and appreciating God's creation

Mal 3:8 - Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Eph 4:28 - Let him that stole steal no more
Many Christians rob by stealing the tithe. If you are financially tight, check your tithe
If you are suffering in any way, check your offering.
In these last days, GOD is looking for men and women of integrity. A new breed without greed. I charge you brethren to pay you tithes and give quality offering cheerfully. What do you have that has not been given to you? Naked you came, certainly you shall return naked. Apart from your tithe (10% of gross) and offering, there is also the principle of first fruit where you honor GOD with the first fruit of your increase.

kingrd:

Mal 3:8 - Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Eph 4:28 - Let him that stole steal no more
Many Christians rob by stealing the tithe. If you are financially tight, check your tithe
If you are suffering in any way, check your offering.
In these last days, GOD is looking for men and women of integrity. A new breed without greed. I charge you brethren to pay you tithes and give quality offering cheerfully. What do you have that has not been given to you? Naked you came, certainly you shall return naked. Apart from your tithe (10% of gross) and offering, there is also the principle of first fruit where you honor GOD with the first fruit of your increase.

What a load of Bull The only people who steal as far as tithing is concerned are the pastors who preach this false doctrine (not meant for christians) with the aim of using distorted scripture to de-fraud them of at least ten percent of the their income on a regular basis. It as since been established on this thread and several others that tithing is not meant for christians so brethen beware.

Tithing we are told is part of God's law as given in the Old Testament. When however I talk about marrying two wives nearly all born again Christians will say that marrying of two wives is not a part of God's Laws. Well please help me explain this. [b]Deuteronomy 21 Verse 15 [/b]which says [b]" If a Man Has Two Wives , " [/b]Read the rest of the scripture and let me know what it means.
Thanks

KunleOshob:

What a load of Bull The only people who steal as far as tithing is concerned are the pastors who preach this false doctrine (not meant for christians) with the aim of using distorted scripture to de-fraud them of at least ten percent of the their income on a regular basis. It as since been established on this thread and several others that tithing is not meant for christians so brethen beware.

The only thing you are trying to establish in several threads is your own misgiving. Talk about "distorted scripture", you have them all littered in your submissions. We know them - the false assertion of 613 mosaic laws that you repealed by Christ's death, is a case in point. Lesson? Just learn to share your points simply without these *pladdra.


_{*pladdra - Swedish word for babble or jabber.}

Check Page 20 of today's Daily Sun for more on this subject

It's interesting I was watching a programme on how foreign aid is used in Africa (well mainly Uganda and Sierria Leone) 2 days ago and with the poverty shown on TV, I thought to myself, what is the role of the church in all this? And I come across this today.

Before the TV programme, I had been seriously reconsidering what I do with my tithes i.e. pay it to the church or actually pay it to an orphanage in Nigeria where I know it will make a positive difference. I still haven't been able to decide and whilst the original article does make score a few points; I am still unclear. I have started paying the equivalent of my tithes to a Nigerian orphanage caring for underprivileged children and still pay my tithes to the church but one has to give way at some point as I cannot afford both for long.

I certainly am not happy when we are shown the church's annual reports that shows that more was spent on visiting guest ministers and other types of hospitality than was actually spent on charity. Something like 10:1! The reports suggests what is given to charity is an after thought. Half the time we are asked to make special contributions for charity if it is Xmas presents for underprivileged children or to build a refuge in Uganda when visiting pastors stay in the best hotels with funds taken from the church's accounts. We build the largest churches in the world but our people languish in poverty.

One day the church has bought a building with the building funds, another day, they say we are renting the building. Do they think people forget? I believe in God but I can't help but feel some pastor's just see tithes as free money.

One of my friends is a treasurer at a new start-up church in London (she's unpaid but it just so happens that she is the only one with a finance qualification in the church and the responsbility fell on her). It was started 5-10years ago and the pastor's bought 2 properties (fully paid up) in London and more in Nigeria in that time. Question is, where did he get the money from , she always reserves her comments.

I do agree with some parts of the original post but if we don't tithe where will the maintenance of the church come out from? Where will pastors and church staff be paid from if we don't pay tithes and would it not be hypocritical to be part of something and not contribute towards the upkeep? These are the questions that I still have no answers to that make me pay my tithes still.

All of these have left me very disillusioned.

Ilelobola:

I do agree with some parts of the original post but[b] if we don't tithe where will the maintenance of the church come out from? [/b] Where will pastors and church staff be paid from if we don't pay tithes and would it not be hypocritical to be part of something and not contribute towards the upkeep? These are the questions that I still have no answers to that make me pay my tithes still.

All of these have left me very disillusioned.

The maintenance of the church would come from free will offerings given by the congregation. Please note that the more established and better organized Orthodox churches don't preach tithes and they don't lack in any thing.