segyemaro:

they wont hear cos of greediness.They know what they will lose if the should stop collecting tithes.

Evidently they don't fear God, stealing in God's name is the worst kind of sin imaginable no wonder the bible says that Judgement would start in the church.

yes but non of them think of that at all,all they are after is just to amass wealth and fly all over the world,thats why they are afraid of death.

BTW My girlfriend works in the finance dept of her church. She tells me freewill giving of people aren't anything compared to their tithes. That tithe is needful so the work of the ministry can move forward. Said freewill giving alone isn't sufficient for running the Church ie. Rent/Mortgage, Power/Electricity, Gas/Heating/AirConditioning, Sending Missionaries away on missions, Charity and donating to the needy and other logistics.

This was her only justification of the church accepting tithe, very similar to the reasons those Catholics gave when they re-enforced the law donkey years after the death of Christ and the birth of the Church.

She said, normally people don't give up to 10% of their income/produce freely, and in this modern day Church, it is imperative that the Church must be ran based on monetary income. The church can't be doing trade by batter to get electricity/fuel, the church can't do trade by batter to get Gas/Heating. Even if the church doesn't want to pay rent, they need to acquire their own property to worship in the first place. Maybe a member can donate a building/property?

Anyways sha, the one I'm definately not confy with is the Church recording who has paid tithe and who hasn't. The church taking note and register of people who has contributed tithe and offering. Peradventure if anyone misses his/her tithe, the "elders" will come calling , ofcourse using Malachi's teachings. They still haven't answered my questions:
1. "If Tithing was that compulsory, why wasn't there a record that Christ or any of his followers paid it?"
2. "Why wasn't there any commandment in the Bible to CHRISTIANS, on paying Tithe"
3. "Why do we CHRISTIANS, have to referred to the old mosaic law to justify tithing"
4. "Why don't those who pay Tithe, pay it as commanded in the book of Deut"?
5. "Why do some CHRISTIANS make exception for TITHING, when the Bible clearly stated that OLD LAWS are NULLIFIED with the death and resurrection of Christ"?

Then I realized, Christianity is actually not what the new testament church is, Christianity is what the "THIRD COMMANDMENT" Church want it to be. God help us, each and everyone of us will face Christ on that judgment day and not MOSES!

Allta:

BTW My girlfriend works in the finance dept of her church. She tells me freewill giving of people aren't anything compared to their tithes. That tithe is needful so the work of the ministry can move forward. Said freewill giving alone isn't sufficient for running the Church ie. Rent/Mortgage, Power/Electricity, Gas/Heating/AirConditioning, Sending Missionaries away on missions, Charity and donating to the needy and other logistics.

She's right. Freewill giving is not sufficient for running a church but neither is Tithing. God Alone is sufficient for running a church.

All those other costs that she's mentioned are problems faced by her organisation and all other man made institutions.

Why can christians not meet to fellowship in each other's homes, or in the fields or anywhere where they can find some privacy? It only takes 2 or 3 people to form a fellowship and Christ will be in the midst of them as he promised.

Oh sorry, I forgot. It's all about populism. The bigger the church the more blessed, abi? That's why they have the confidence to put up posts like this

zaragoza:

Just try starting up ur own thread and see if anybody wld post in it, if not 4 insane people like you.

from here:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-247254.96.html

They've turned their faith into a popularity contest. It is not Christianity. It is not even religion of any sort. It is Madness.

Pastor AIO:

Why can christians not meet to fellowship in each other's homes, or in the fields or anywhere where they can find some privacy? It only takes 2 or 3 people to form a fellowship and Christ will be in the midst of them as he promised.

For where!! they need the supercharged atmosphere which a crowd generates; without that, their hypnotic brainwashing wouldn't work you know

the bible has stated it all, tithe is a necesity. It is up to you to adhere to God's word or choose to go about it in your own understanding. everyone is entitle to his or her opinion but God's words remain unchangeable.

ohaechesi:

the bible has stated it all, tithe is a necesity. It is up to you to adhere to God's word or choose to go about it in your own understanding. everyone is entitle to his or her opinion but God's words remain unchangeable.

So why are your tithe preaching pastors always trying to change God's word, or is biblical tithes described in deuteronomy the same as the tithes which your pastors preach today. Even after the bible makes it clear that the law of tithes is NOT applicable to christians.

KunleOshob:

So why are your tithe preaching pastors always trying to change God's word, or is biblical tithes described in deuteronomy the same as the tithes which your pastors preach today. Even after the bible makes it clear that the law of tithes is NOT applicable to christians.

where in your bible did it state you must be bed fellow of obasanjo and his thieving group? stop using the bible to hide your hatred of the church and people of God.

the more you throw your slow poison the more you make a fool of yourself.

Allta:

Omo, peeps still dey this tithing or no tithing issue. I guess this will never stop until the second coming of Christ himself , Jees man!

Ok, no be by force to do anything abi? No be by force to pay tithe, no be by force to even be a Christian in the first place. He that wants to tithe, let him tithe without the fear of curses from God. But he has to do it according to how God commanded in Deut. Men, chop up ur tithes Bro, wiv the needy, widowers, levites, orphans, foreigners, anyhow whichway. Just don't be left out in chopping your tithe with these people!

BTW: It's not even compulsory to be born again self!

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

KunleOshob:

So why are your tithe preaching pastors always trying to change God's word, or is biblical tithes described in deuteronomy the same as the tithes which your pastors preach today. Even after the bible makes it clear that the law of tithes is NOT applicable to christians.

mr kunle,

i have observed that you have done so much indepth study on this topic, but let us look at it from another angle.

supposing you are wrong you would have led so many people astray so please be careful

suppose you are right; even at that, there is eternal benefits in sowing into the kingdom, and the tithe would just be added to the eternal account of the tithers

moving forward could you do another comprehensive study on how to get to heaven and enlighten us on your findings

it is well with you my brother

initiate:

mr kunle,

i have observed that you have done so much indepth study on this topic, but let us look at it from another angle.

supposing you are wrong you would have led so many people astray so please be careful

suppose you are right; even at that, there is eternal benefits in sowing into the kingdom, and the tithe would just be added to the eternal account of the tithers

moving forward could you do another comprehensive study on how to get to heaven and enlighten us on your findings

it is well with you my brother

As i have quoted completely from the bible[undiluted] i am quite certain i am not wrong. It is tithe preaching pastors that dilute the scriptures and to justify their collection of tithes and the onus is on them to show us from the scriptures clear directives to christians to tithe[i.e 10% of their income to the churchas opposed to the biblical tithes which is 10% of the produce of the land to be consumed by the tither, his family, the less priviledge and the levites]

ps: If you suppose i am wrong, then you are inadvently saying the bible is wrong cos all i say is strictly from the bible.


On the issue of sowing in the Kingdom, how does Jesus teach us to give to God? Sowing in the kingdom from the perspective of christ was giving to the poor and the needy and NOT giving to the church. If you really want to give to God, give to the needy around you and then you would be sowing in the kingdom this is what Jesus christ teaches. The scripture below addresses the issue further:

Matthew 25:35-40:
35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[a] you were doing it to me!’

KunleOshob:

As i have quoted completely from the bible[undiluted] i am quite certain i am not wrong. It is tithe preaching pastors that dilute the scriptures and to justify their collection of tithes and the onus is on them to show us from the scriptures clear directives to christians to tithe[i.e 10% of their income to the churchas opposed to the biblical tithes which is 10% of the produce of the land to be consumed by the tither, his family, the less priviledge and the levites]

ps: If you suppose i am wrong, then you are inadvently saying the bible is wrong cos all i say is strictly from the bible.


On the issue of sowing in the Kingdom, how does Jesus teach us to give to God? Sowing in the kingdom from the perspective of christ was giving to the poor and the needy and NOT giving to the church. If you really want to give to God, give to the needy around you and then you would be sowing in the kingdom this is what Jesus christ teaches. The scripture below addresses the issue further:

Matthew 25:35-40:
35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[a] you were doing it to me!’

I quite agree with kunle on this issue of Tithing,i am still yet to see where Jesus commanded us to give tithe, and we are all following the footsteps of Jesus Christ

initiate:

mr kunle,

i have observed that you have done so much indepth study on this topic, but let us look at it from another angle.

supposing you are wrong you would have led so many people astray so please be careful

suppose you are right; even at that, there is eternal benefits in sowing into the kingdom, and the tithe would just be added to the eternal account of the tithers

This is why we need to be very careful in drawing conclusions. Of course, everyone would like to say that what they have asserted is "100% from the Bible. . . undiluted" blah-blah-blah. This is not the case in every instance, and some of those flawed assertions have been examined and retired because they cannot be defended.

KunleOshob:

As i have quoted completely from the bible[undiluted] i am quite certain i am not wrong. It is tithe preaching pastors that dilute the scriptures and to justify their collection of tithes and the onus is on them to show us from the scriptures clear directives to christians to tithe[i.e 10% of their income to the church as opposed to the biblical tithes which is 10% of the produce of the land to be consumed by the tither, his family, the less priviledge and the levites]

No, the onus is on you to show us from the Scriptures clear directives to Christians when you said it is "perfectly okay" for them to tithe, going so far as to say that such a Christian "is tithing or giving whatever percentage of his income to the church out of his own desire to contribute to the church". You cannot be opposing in other people the very same thing that you have acknowledged as "perfectly okay".

KunleOshob:

ps: If you suppose i am wrong, then you are inadvently saying the bible is wrong cos all i say is strictly from the bible.

Nope, the Bible would not be wrong, but you will be. You cannot bend the veracity of Scripture to your own idea, so that when you are pointed out as being wrong, you then try to fault the Bible.

KunleOshob:

On the issue of sowing in the Kingdom, how does Jesus teach us to give to God? Sowing in the kingdom from the perspective of christ was giving to the poor and the needy and NOT giving to the church. If you really want to give to God, give to the needy around you and then you would be sowing in the kingdom this is what Jesus christ teaches.

Half truth is a very dangerous thing. Christ taught giving BOTH to the poor and to the Church. To say that Christ's teaching did not involve giving to the Church would mean you either are deliberately ignoring what Scripture teaches or are simply uninformed about what it says on this matter. Refresher: ~ 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, at least there you find an example of what the Lord taught as giving in the Church, something which He "ordained". Also, if giving in Church is not taught for Christians, then where is the funding for the wages/salaries of Godly elders to come from (1 Tim. 5:17-18)?

initiate:

mr kunle,

supposing you are wrong you would have led so many people astray so please be careful

The onus would then be on those who have twisted the real meaning of biblical tithes to show how any of the several scriptures i quoted is wrong or how my understanding of the scriptures is wrong. [I also hope they would not give me that crap that i need the holy spirit to interprete the scriptures to me] as this is the usual line they use when they want to twist the scriptures.

pilgrim.1:

This is why we need to be very careful in drawing conclusions. Of course, everyone would like to say that what they have asserted is "100% from the Bible. . . undiluted" blah-blah-blah. This is not the case in every instance, and some of those flawed assertions have been examined and retired because they cannot be defended.

Exactly we have to be very careful in drawing conclusions, as there is no direct biblical evidence to support the way tithes is preached and practised today we should just not conclude that since a pastor said it it must be right or it is the will of God. we should actually study the scriptures ourselves like the berean christians did to be sure we are not being deceived.

KunleOshob:

The onus would then be on those who have twisted the real meaning of biblical tithes to show how any of the several scriptures i quoted is wrong or how my understanding of the scriptures is wrong.

This has been done several times.

KunleOshob:

[I also hope they would not give me that crap that i need the holy spirit to interprete the scriptures to me] as this is the usual line they use when they want to twist the scriptures.

Hmm, I hope you certainly don't mean what you said above. Advising that one needs the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture is not 'crap'.

KunleOshob:

Exactly we have to be very careful in drawing conclusions, as there is no direct biblical evidence to support the way tithes is preached and practised today we should just not conclude that since a pastor said it it must be right or it is the will of God.

That is why we have been waiting for you to show us from Scripture the same tithes you clearly declared to be "perfectly okay". You've always been focusing on what others are teaching: now we want you to show us what YOU are declaring to be "perfectly okay".

KunleOshob:

we should actually study the scriptures ourselves like the berean christians did to be sure we are not being deceived.

We hear. That's why your attention has been called several times to do the same.

pilgrim.1:

No, the onus is on you to show us from the Scriptures clear directives to Christians when you said it is "perfectly okay" for them to tithe, going so far as to say that such a Christian "is tithing or giving whatever percentage of his income to the church out of his own desire to contribute to the church". You cannot be opposing in other people the very same thing that you have acknowledged as "perfectly okay".

I am tired of you trying to quote my above stated statement out of context, i have consistently told you that my problem is NOt with giving to the church[ call it tithes, offerings or whatever] my problem is with the deception that supposed men of God preach it as compulsary 10% of our income and the twisting of the word of God to support a fraud against his children, this i consider a very grievious sin and all those who have been preaching this evil seriously need to repent.

pilgrim.1:


Nope, the Bible would not be wrong, but you will be. You cannot bend the veracity of Scripture to your own idea, so that when you are pointed out as being wrong, you then try to fault the Bible.

I cannot be wrong as all my submissions are 100% based on undiluted scripture unlike tithe preachers who have to twist the bible and meaning of scriptural tithes to justify their greed. So if you don't agree with me you are inadvently saying the bible is wrong and your greedy pastors are right.

pilgrim.1:


Half truth is a very dangerous thing. Christ taught giving BOTH to the poor and to the Church. To say that Christ's teaching did not involve giving to the Church would mean you either are deliberately ignoring what Scripture teaches or are simply uninformed about what it says on this matter. Refresher: ~ 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, at least there you find an example of what the Lord taught as giving in the Church, something which He "ordained". Also, if giving in Church is not taught for Christians, then where is the funding for the wages/salaries of Godly elders to come from (1 Tim. 5:17-18)?

There is no half truth in what i posted i quoted Jesus whilst you quoted paul. There is no were in the gospels that Jesus preached on giving to the church. The only time he spoke about it was when commenting on the widows mite and peter asked him about payment of temple tax [matthew 17:24-27] whilst paul was purpotedly quoting from old testament laws concerning the temple.He could even have been quoting jesus and that is not a propblem as i have always maintained that it is okay for christians to support the church but church leaders should also endeavour to follow pauls example in 2 thessalonians 3:6-10, in this way there would be more money for the church to spend on their main mandate which is to help and assist the poor and needy and the church would be actually impacting on the society.

2 Thessalonians 3:6-10:
6 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we give you this command in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ: Stay away from all believers who live idle lives and don’t follow the tradition they received from us. 7 For you know that you ought to imitate us. We were not idle when we were with you. 8 We never accepted food from anyone without paying for it. We worked hard day and night so we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We certainly had the right to ask you to feed us, but we wanted to give you an example to follow. 10 Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: “Those unwilling to work will not get to eat.”

KunleOshob:

I am tired of you trying to quote my above stated statement out of context, i have consistently told you that my problem is NOt with giving to the church[ call it tithes, offerings or whatever] my problem is with the deception that supposed men of God preach it as compulsary 10% of our income and the twisting of the word of God to support a fraud against his children, this i consider a very grievious sin and all those who have been preaching this evil seriously need to repent.

I'm not worried at all about what tires you, as it appears you've been inconsistent about this issue from the onset. If it is certainly "perfectly okay" for CHRISTIANS to TITHE (10% or ANY percentage of their income to the CHURCH), what then has been the quarrel you have about other people preaching that very same thing? Your problem is to make tithe-preachers into fraudsters and you have this idea that your own parlance is not as skewed as theirs - which is why I keep asking that same question. If you cannot point out what you see as "perfectly okay" from Scripture, just where did you get that idea from, and yet condemn that same thing in others who preach tithe in Churches? The same things you have been mentioning is what they have been mentioning - "income". . "tithes". . ."any percentage". . . "to the church". . . "out of their own desire", etc. So, just what is your cark if these fellows are preaching the same thing as you make "perfectly okay"? If it is a "grievious evil" on their part for saying the same things as you affirm, you also need to join them in the repentance that you recommend. Don't you think so?

KunleOshob:

I cannot be wrong as all my submissions are 100% based on undiluted scripture unlike tithe preachers who have to twist the bible and meaning of scriptural tithes to justify their greed.

Okay, I leave you to your pride. That's not a virtue, though.

KunleOshob:

So if you don't agree with me you are inadvently saying the bible is wrong and your greedy pastors are right.

I didn't say any such thing. Where you're wrong, you're dead wrong, regardless any pastor who preaches vice.

KunleOshob:

There is no half truth in what i posted i quoted Jesus whilst you quoted paul.

Excuse me, are you reading ANOTHER Bible? Or do you have TWO different Lords?  What do you understand by "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel" (1 Cor. 9:14)? Is that a different 'Lord' from the Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospels? I don't see how your excuse underscores anything here for you though.

KunleOshob:

There is no were in the gospels that Jesus preached on giving to the church.

Compare these scriptures:

         ~ the labourer is worthy of his hire [Luke 10:7] - the Lord Jesus

         ~ And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. [1 Tim. 5:18] - apostle Paul

In their application, does that pertain to the ministers in Church or poor people on the streets?

Oh, and if you want to know if actually the Lord "ordained" giving in Church, what does 2 Cor. 13:3 mean by Christ speaking in the apostle?

KunleOshob:

The only time he spoke about it was when commenting on the widows mite and peter asked him about payment of temple tax [matthew 17:24-27]

Oh, I see - you admit that He actually spoke about giving in church ("the only time he spoke about it"? Then just what is your protestation about, Kunle? Are you not confusing issues for yourself? It's either He did not speak about it; or He actually spoke about it - they are not the same things.

KunleOshob:

whilst paul was purpotedly quoting from old testament laws concerning the temple.

Ah, finally. . . you're coming home. So, Paul quoted from Old Testament Laws - for the CHRISTAIN?? I no fit laugh finish!!   How many times did I make that point so plain that even a child could not miss it?!? Now you of all people are now acknowledging the point that Christians actually resort to the OT LAW?? Hahahaha!! Well done, my brother! You go soon get another revelation, soon eh?

KunleOshob:

He could even have been quoting jesus and that is not a propblem as i have always maintained that it is okay for christians to support the church

Lol, look at the above of what you have "always maintained". . . and compare it to your assertion that Christ did NOT teach us to give in church. I'm not making any inference, just asking you to be clear, that's all.

KunleOshob:

but church leaders should also endeavour to follow pauls example in 2 thessalonians 3:6-10, in this way there would be more money for the church to spend on their main mandate which is to help and assist the poor and needy and the church would be actually impacting on the society.

There are MANY pastors who are already doing that same thing. So many, many of them.

pilgrim.1:

I'm not worried at all about what tires you, as it appears you've been inconsistent about this issue from the onset. If it is certainly "perfectly okay" for CHRISTIANS to TITHE (10% or ANY percentage of their income to the CHURCH), what then has been the quarrel you have about other people preaching that very same thing? Your problem is to make tithe-preachers into fraudsters and you have this idea that your own parlance is not as skewed as theirs - which is why I keep asking that same question. If you cannot point out what you see as "perfectly okay" from Scripture, just where did you get that idea from, and yet condemn that same thing in others who preach tithe in Churches? The same things you have been mentioning is what they have been mentioning - "income". . "tithes". . ."any percentage". . . "to the church". . . "out of their own desire", etc. So, just what is your cark if these fellows are preaching the same thing as you make "perfectly okay"? If it is a "grievious evil" on their part for saying the same things as you affirm, you also need to join them in the repentance that you recommend. Don't you think so?

I see you have decided to be very dis-honest in your dialogue, as i have repeated several times it is okay if the giving is being done from the free will of the tither and he is not being manipulated into doing it. I don't critisize any form of christian giving it is the manipulative and unscriptural way that tithing is preached that i condenm in all it's ramifications. If you don't comprehend the english i have written here maybe you should get someone to explain it to you cause i am almost certain that you would still try and confuse issues on this topic again, then again maybe you are trying to confuse other readers by trying to give them an impression that i am not consistent

pilgrim.1:

Excuse me, are you reading ANOTHER Bible? Or do you have TWO different Lords?  What do you understand by "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel" (1 Cor. 9:14)? Is that a different 'Lord' from the Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospels? I don't see how your excuse underscores anything here for you though.

Have you ever heard of the Lord God almighty?

pilgrim.1:

Lol, look at the above of what you have "always maintained". . . and compare it to your assertion that Christ did NOT teach us to give in church. I'm not making any inference, just asking you to be clear, that's all.

Please state one single bible passage were Jesus himself taught that we should give to the church. Mind you i am not saying we shouldn't give to the church.

KunleOshob:

I see you have decided to be very dis-honest in your dialogue, as i have repeated several times it is okay if the giving is being done from the free will of the tither and he is not being manipulated into doing it. I don't critisize any form of christian giving it is the manipulative and unscriptural way that tithing is preached that i condenm in all it's ramifications. If you don't comprehend the english i have written here maybe you should get someone to explain it to you cause i am almost certain that you would still try and confuse issues on this topic again, then again maybe you are trying to confuse other readers by trying to give them an impression that i am not consistent

Kunle my dear, being accusative is the language of losers - and that's what you often demonstrate. You have been haranguing others to show you "from Scripture" that tithing is for the Christian - but YOU who say it is "perfectly okay" cannot show what you affirm. What then is the difference between you and those whom you have been pejoratively accusing? You condemn in other people the very thing you assert is "perfectly okay", and yet when called to show your own from Scripture as you demand of others, you keep turning in circles.

KunleOshob:

Have you ever heard of the Lord God almighty?

My question was simple: if you have no answer, please say so - it won't be a new thing from you.

KunleOshob:

Please state one single bible passage were Jesus himself taught that we should give to the church. Mind you i am not saying we shouldn't give to the church.

You're a very funny personality. You can't argue against giving in Church, but you have a problem with it initially and only now saying you're not against it. Please learn to be consistent and reasonable. Let's remind you of your original statement:

       'Sowing in the kingdom from the perspective of christ was
        giving to the poor and the needy and NOT giving to the church.'

That was your statement, to which I initially referenced as half truth. In the first place, when "sowing" is connected with "giving", it is in 2 Corinthians 9 we find the concept used in that manner. If you carefully read again that chapter, you will find that "sowing" is pointing to giving in CHURCH, contrary to your denying it is so. Can we quote you some verses now to show it? Here -

[list][li]verse 6:
   -  But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly;
   -  and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully[/li]
.
.
[li]Verse 10:
    -  Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food,
    -  and multiply your seed sown,
    -  and increase the fruits of your righteousness[/li][/list]

Look again at your statement: your idea that "sowing" was "NOT giving to the church" makes one wonder if you had so soon forgotten 2 Corinthians 9 - at least, the apostle was addressing giving in Church in that chapter when he spoke about "sowing".

On the other hand, in the Gospels where Christ spoke about "sowing" (including Matthew 25 which you quoted from), it does not appear that He used that word in the way you have used it. Go and read it again (verses 35-40) and you will not find Him speaking there about "sowing"; rather, it is the earlier verses of that chapter that speak of "sowing", and that is in relation to stewards (verses 14-30, parable of the talents).

I know you have problem with this issue of sowing, that is why you measured out half truths to deny that "sowing" is a matter also of giving to the Church. Here's an earlier assertion of yours where this half-truth and prevarication stands out:

KunleOshob:

@origina9ja
Please note that most teachings on christian giving in the new testament was about giving to the poor and needy, it is our mordern day preachers that twist it to mean giving to the church.

. . . in other words, you don't find giving to the Church taught anywhere in the New Testament (not even 2 Corinthians 9)? If giving in church is definitely taught in the NT, why are you accusing others as if it was never taught in the NT in the first place? Why use your half-truths to attack others, Kunle?

pilgrim.1:

Kunle my dear, being accusative is the language of losers - and that's what you often demonstrate. You have been haranguing others to show you "from Scripture" that tithing is for the Christian - but YOU who say it is "perfectly okay" cannot show what you affirm. What then is the difference between you and those whom you have been pejoratively accusing? You condemn in other people the very thing you assert is "perfectly okay", and yet when called to show your own from Scripture as you demand of others, you keep turning in circles.

My question was simple: if you have no answer, please say so - it won't be a new thing from you.

You're a very funny personality. You can't argue against giving in Church, but you have a problem with it initially and only now saying you're not against it. Please learn to be consistent and reasonable. Let's remind you of your original statement:

'Sowing in the kingdom from the perspective of christ was
giving to the poor and the needy and NOT giving to the church.'

That was your statement, to which I initially referenced as half truth. In the first place, when "sowing" is connected with "giving", it is in 2 Corinthians 9 we find the concept used in that manner. If you carefully read again that chapter, you will find that "sowing" is pointing to giving in CHURCH, contrary to your denying it is so. Can we quote you some verses now to show it? Here -

[list][li]verse 6:
- But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly;
- and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully[/li]
.
.
[li]Verse 10:
- Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food,
- and multiply your seed sown,
- and increase the fruits of your righteousness[/li][/list]

Look again at your statement: your idea that "sowing" was "NOT giving to the church" makes one wonder if you had so soon forgotten 2 Corinthians 9 - at least, the apostle was addressing giving in Church in that chapter when he spoke about "sowing".

On the other hand, in the Gospels where Christ spoke about "sowing" (including Matthew 25 which you quoted from), it does not appear that He used that word in the way you have used it. Go and read it again (verses 35-40) and you will not find Him speaking there about "sowing"; rather, it is the earlier verses of that chapter that speak of "sowing", and that is in relation to stewards (verses 14-30, parable of the talents).

I know you have problem with this issue of sowing, that is why you measured out half truths to deny that "sowing" is a matter also of giving to the Church. Here's an earlier assertion of yours where this half-truth and prevarication stands out:

. . . in other words, you don't find giving to the Church taught anywhere in the New Testament (not even 2 Corinthians 9)? If giving in church is definitely taught in the NT, why are you accusing others as if it was never taught in the NT in the first place? Why use your half-truths to attack others, Kunle?

For christ's sake what is your point of argument ,Since obviously you agree with the fact that it is not compulsory to give.Likewise there is nothing wrong in freely giving your money afterall the money is yours and you determine what you do with it.

All Kunle has been trying to say all this why is that there is no commandent in christianity which makes it mandatory for christians to donate 10% of their incomes to the church or their Pastors.

Several criminals masquerading as men of God has used the writings of prothet Malachi to fleece their members of their hard earned Money telling them that they would be cursed unless the contribute 10% of their incomes to the church.This heretic practise has been going on for long and it therefore beholves of every responsible christian to educate their ignorant and uninformed colleagues about this delvilish teaching.That is what Kunle has chosen to do.

In doing so he did not ask you to stop giving money to your church ,rather such gestures should be borne out of your genuine desire to donate not due to fear of any curse.

Your arguments don't make sense since obvously you are not in supprt of compulsory giving except you are hiding something from us

chukwudi44:

For christ's sake what is your point of argument ,Since obviously you agree with the fact that it is not compulsory to give.Likewise there is nothing wrong in freely giving your money afterall the money is yours and you determine what you do with it.

If you are reading a discussion mid-way through, relax and digest the issue before jumping off the cliff. Half-truths are a dangerous part of the confusion to use tithing to attack people, and that is an issue that must be addressed as equally as we all frown on any shade of falsehood.

chukwudi44:

All Kunle has been trying to say all this why is that there is no commandent in christianity which makes it mandatory for christians to donate 10% of their incomes to the church or their Pastors.

And your point is. . .? Where have I been discussing a "mandatory" tithe?

You really don't seem to have a clue about this, chukwudi44. We've retired this mantra about "mandatory" arguments long ago; so where have I made it "mandatory" again? In the latest reply I posted (I doubt you even read it), the issue is not whether or not tithes are mandatory to anybody, but using half-truths to confuse people. A case in point: it's either you don't believe that the Bible teaches giving in Church, or you're confused about it and can't see that a denial is being made by the statement: "it is our mordern day preachers that twist it to mean giving to the church".

chukwudi44:

Several criminals masquerading as men of God has used the writings of prothet Malachi to fleece their members of their hard earned Money telling them that they would be cursed unless the contribute 10% of their incomes to the church.This heretic practise has been going on for long and it therefore beholves of every responsible christian to educate their ignorant and uninformed colleagues about this delvilish teaching.That is what Kunle has chosen to do.

Is that excuse enough to condemn GIVING IN CHURCH? Are you even reading at all?

chukwudi44:

In doing so he did not ask you to stop giving money to your church ,rather such gestures should be borne out of your genuine desire to donate not due to fear of any curse.

You obviously are not reading and merely reacting. Look again to see his quote:
          @origina9ja
          Please note that most teachings on christian giving in the new testament
          was about giving to the poor and needy, it is our mordern day preachers
          that twist it to mean giving to the church.
This is why I point out the fallacy of that statement - because it turns out quite too often that anti-tithers are circling the same fallacies over and over again and even confusing themselves. If it is against the teaching of the New Testament to give in church, there's no need for you chukwudi44 to patronise or compromise here. Unless you just didn't read through carefully before assuming what you did. If it is pastors today who twisted Scripture to teach giving in Church, then YOU have no business giving in church - for doing so would mean you join the band of those affirming the very things they condemn in others.

My point? Be consistent and stop using the same fallacies you affirm to condemn others when you are practising the very same things yourself (Rom. 14:22 - Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth).

chukwudi44:

Your arguments don't make sense since obvously you are not in supprt of compulsory giving except you are hiding something from us

You actually make no sense at all seeing you hardly read through before jumping off the cliff.

pilgrim.1:


'Sowing in the kingdom from the perspective of christ was
giving to the poor and the needy and NOT giving to the church.'

That was your statement, to which I initially referenced as half truth. In the first place, when "sowing" is connected with "giving", it is in 2 Corinthians 9 we find the concept used in that manner. If you carefully read again that chapter, you will find that "sowing" is pointing to giving in CHURCH, contrary to your denying it is so. Can we quote you some verses now to show it? Here -

[list][li]verse 6:
- But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly;
- and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully[/li]
.
.
[li]Verse 10:
- Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food,
- and multiply your seed sown,
- and increase the fruits of your righteousness[/li][/list]

Look again at your statement: your idea that "sowing" was "NOT giving to the church" makes one wonder if you had so soon forgotten 2 Corinthians 9 - at least, the apostle was addressing giving in Church in that chapter when he spoke about "sowing".

Once again i am being forced to expose your lies and deceptions as exemplified in the highlighted above. For the benefit of all i would post the said passage below then everyone would be free to decide who the beneficiary of the "sowing" aposlte paul spoke about was.


2 Corinthians 9:1-14:
The Collection for Christians in Jerusalem

1 I really don’t need to write to you about this ministry of giving for the believers in Jerusalem. 2 For I know how eager you are to help, and I have been boasting to the churches in Macedonia that you in Greece were ready to send an offering a year ago. In fact, it was your enthusiasm that stirred up many of the Macedonian believers to begin giving.

3 But I am sending these brothers to be sure you really are ready, as I have been telling them, and that your money is all collected. I don’t want to be wrong in my boasting about you. 4 We would be embarrassed—not to mention your own embarrassment—if some Macedonian believers came with me and found that you weren’t ready after all I had told them! 5 So I thought I should send these brothers ahead of me to make sure the gift you promised is ready. But I want it to be a willing gift, not one given grudgingly.

6 Remember this—a farmer who plants only a few seeds will get a small crop. But the one who plants generously will get a generous crop. 7 You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. “For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.” 8 And God will generously provide all you need. Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with others. 9 As the Scriptures say,

“They share freely and give generously to the poor.
Their good deeds will be remembered forever.”[d]

10 For God is the one who provides seed for the farmer and then bread to eat. In the same way, he will provide and increase your resources and then produce a great harvest of generosity in you.

11 Yes, you will be enriched in every way so that you can always be generous. And when we take your gifts to those who need them, they will thank God. 12 So two good things will result from this ministry of giving—the needs of the believers in Jerusalem[f] will be met, and they will joyfully express their thanks to God.

13 As a result of your ministry, they will give glory to God. For your generosity to them and to all believers will prove that you are obedient to the Good News of Christ. 14 And they will pray for you with deep affection because of the overflowing grace God has given to you.

KunleOshob:

pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg3908563#msg3908563 date=1243012199:

       'Sowing in the kingdom from the perspective of christ was
        giving to the poor and the needy and NOT giving to the church.'

That was your statement, to which I initially referenced as half truth. In the first place, when "sowing" is connected with "giving", it is in 2 Corinthians 9 we find the concept used in that manner. If you carefully read again that chapter, you will find that "sowing" is pointing to giving in CHURCH, contrary to your denying it is so. Can we quote you some verses now to show it? Here -

[list][li]verse 6:
   -  But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly;
   -  and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully[/li]
.
.
[li]Verse 10:
    -  Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food,
    -  and multiply your seed sown,
    -  and increase the fruits of your righteousness[/li][/list]

Look again at your statement: your idea that "sowing" was "NOT giving to the church" makes one wonder if you had so soon forgotten 2 Corinthians 9 - at least, the apostle was addressing giving in Church in that chapter when he spoke about "sowing".

Once again i am being forced to expose your lies and deceptions as exemplified in the highlighted above. For the benefit of all i would post the said passage below then everyone would be free to decide who the beneficiary of the "sowing" aposlte paul spoke about was.


2 Corinthians 9:1-14:
The Collection for Christians in Jerusalem

Kunle,

Please show what your problem actually is in my reply. Just singing about "lies and deceptions" is infantile, it says nothing and cheapens your arguments. I was hoping you have problems in 2 Corinthians 9 on sowing - and yet you had to quote the same passage as if it was NOT saying the very same thing you read in my reply. Are you seriously missing it now that you can't actually discuss? Please let me know.

pilgrim.1:

Kunle,

Please show what your problem actually is in my reply. Just singing about "lies and deceptions" is infantile, it says nothing and cheapens your arguments. I was hoping you have problems in 2 Corinthians 9 on sowing - and yet you had to quote the same passage as if it was NOT saying the very same thing you read in my reply. Are you seriously missing it now that you can't actually discuss? Please let me know.

In your reply you lied that 2 corinthians 9 was talking about giving to the church and that is why i had to re-post it in full so every body can see it was talking about giving to christians in jerusalem who were in need at that time. It is also a typical example of how pastors twist the bible to make it say what it is not saying

KunleOshob:

In your reply you lied that 2 corinthians 9 was talking about giving to the church and that is why i had to re-post it in full so every body can see it was talking about giving to christians in jerusalem who were in need at that time. It is also a typical example of how pastors twist the bible to make it say what it is not saying

Thank you.
Now when you're calm, carefully read and then be assured that I did not lie, nor would I return the 'compliment' of such an accusation. You need to be careful the type of spirit you often exhibit and not be an 'accuser'.

Here is your problem: Kunle, who are the "Christians in Jerusalem" - are they in any sense the 'church', or they are not the CHURCH?

When you answer that simple question, then I'll show you why your accusation was uncalled for.

pilgrim.1:

Thank you.
Now when you're calm, carefully read and then be assured that I did not lie, nor would I return the 'compliment' of such an accusation. You need to be careful the type of spirit you often exhibit and not be an 'accuser'.

Here is your problem: Kunle, who are the "Christians in Jerusalem" - are they in any sense the 'church', or they are not the CHURCH?

When you answer that simple question, then I'll show you why your accusation was uncalled for.

You are trying to play with words with me abi won't work as we both know that the definittion of the word church in the bible and the present day realities are two totally different things. Especially when it comes to use of church funds

KunleOshob:

You are trying to play with words with me abi won't work as we both know that the definittion of the word church in the bible and the present day realities are two totally different things. Especially when it comes to use of church funds

Please answer the question - if you cannot, say so and save all the drama. Thank you.

I have already answered your question or you want me to fall into your trap of techninalities[abi you be lawyer] won't fall for that except you address the issue of the context of the church in new testament times and the reality of what a church is today.

KunleOshob:

I have already answered your question or you want me to fall into your trap of techninalities[abi you be lawyer] won't fall for that except you address the issue of the context of the church in new testament times and the reality of what a church is today.

I didn't expect you would answer that question - always the same game you play, but no worries. The issue was not about the technicalities of what the church is defined to be - you're deviating and losing focus unnecessarily. The question is simple -

Kunle, who are the "Christians in Jerusalem" -
are they in any sense the 'church', or they are not the CHURCH?

If you have no answer, simply say so. Thank you again.

@Pilgrim.1
Who are the major benficiaries of the collections in your "church" today? You being part of the "church" do your apostles pastors share this proceeds with you or any of the other individuals that make up "your church" as was exemplified in Acts 4:32-35? Your honest answer to this would go a long way in assisting me to know how exactly to answer your questsion.

KunleOshob:

@Pilgrim.1
Who are the major benficiaries of the collections in your "church" today? You being part of the "church" do your apostles pastors share this proceeds with you or any of the other individuals that make up "your church" as was exemplified in Acts 4:32-35? Your honest answer to this would go a long way in assisting me to know how exactly to answer your questsion.

Please Kunle, be man enough to stop this game of ducking simple questions. If you can't address the question I offered you earlier, say so simply and honestly.

      Kunle, who are the "Christians in Jerusalem" -
     are they in any sense the 'church', or they are not the CHURCH?

If you can address the above honestly and simply (no prevarications), then I'll address yours. If you can't do so, say so.