Many religions justify God ultimately sending almost all of mankind to an eternal punishment that our most evil minds cannot even comprehend.
The basis for this justification is that God gave us freewill and we didn't choose Him.
Aside from the pettiness and jealously that statement portrays, did God really give us freewill?
Looking at it from an unbiased perspective, I was born on this earth without being given a choice. If there was freewill, I should have been able to choose if i wanted to exist or not. But once I can make that choice, then I already exist.
In essence I was not free to make that choice so religion cannot subsequently claim that humans have freewill.

We only have partial freewill from a religious point of view

Bump...
For no good reason...
And I'm not going to contribute...

Hahahaha. Lol at your personal text. The thing tire me sef. I was just weak and didn't know how to respond again

Affiliated: Hahahaha. Lol at your personal text. The thing tire me sef. I was just weak and didn't know how to respond again

Frankly, I don't know how to respond to that too... It's too much for me to think about now sef, my concentration is elsewhere and it would easily screw it up...It could potentially melt my brain just a bit...

This your post here may have some legitimate concerns, yet I see no theist takers, curious...

you missed the definitions.

Image123: you missed the definitions.

Define them please

@Op

To start with: What is freedom? Maybe we should first learn to define this concept before assuming to make judgments.

Freedom is simply the capability to make a choice. It is not the capability to escape your responsibilities or consequences of your choices, which seems to be your idea of freedom and this does not exist. Your concept of freedom is simply a fantasy.

If you choose god, then it is with a eye on what you hope to benefit(and lose) by that choice. Likewise, if you choose an alternative to god, it is also with an eye on the benefits(& costs) of that choice.

okeyxyz: @Op

To start with: What is freedom? Maybe we should first learn to define this concept before assuming to make judgments.

Freedom is simply the capability to make a choice. It is not the capability to escape your responsibilities or consequences of your choices, which seems to be your idea of freedom and this does not exist. Your concept of freedom is simply a fantasy.

If you choose god, then it is with a eye on what you hope to benefit(and lose) by that choice. Likewise, if you choose an alternative to god, it is also with an eye on the benefits(& costs) of that choice.

Maybe we need to also define god.

musKeeto:
Maybe we need to also define god.

Good! please define god, let's see what you think.

okeyxyz:

Good! please define god, let's see what you think.

I'll keep it simple.

Let's assume this world has a creator...

When humans attach feelings, emotions, personality and a name to this creator, then you get a god.

musKeeto:
I'll keep it simple.

Let's assume this world has a creator...

When humans attach feelings, emotions, personality and a name to this creator, then you get a god.

Your "assumption" that there is a creator automatically validates the rest of the attributes in the following line. If there is a creator, then such creator must have a will, a personality and value-system(system of right\wrong). Therefore anybody who wishes to have a "happy/profitable" existence in this universe must do so in conformity with the value-system setup by this god. Therefore, "freedom" is not without consequence.

No. It doesn't.

A creator needs not have a value system, for of what use is this value system if not to the created? In essence, does your God have a conscience? A value system, in my opinion, is only useful to humans...

Please tell what a Creator needs a value system for...

Also consider that Allah, Yahweh and Krishna seem to operate by different rules...eg, pork sin, beef sin, etc... think about this, then read my definition of god again..

Affiliated: Many religions justify God ultimately sending almost all of mankind to an eternal punishment that our most evil minds cannot even comprehend.
The basis for this justification is that God gave us freewill and we didn't choose Him.
Aside from the pettiness and jealously that statement portrays, did God really give us freewill?
Looking at it from an unbiased perspective, I was born on this earth without being given a choice. If there was freewill, I should have been able to choose if i wanted to exist or not. But once I can make that choice, then I already exist.
In essence I was not free to make that choice so religion cannot subsequently claim that humans have freewill.

We only have partial freewill from a religious point of view

@bolded: This pettiness and jealousy......

Are'nt those well known human characteristics?

Can a truly all-knowing and all-powerful be this petty?

okeyxyz:

Your "assumption" that there is a creator automatically validates the rest of the attributes in the following line. If there is a creator, then such creator must have a will, a personality and value-system(system of right\wrong). Therefore anybody who wishes to have a "happy/profitable" existence in this universe must do so in conformity with the value-system setup by this god. Therefore, "freedom" is not without consequence.

He didn't put this value-systems in our DNA. He chose instead to reveal it to Jews and Arabs only

musKeeto: No. It doesn't.

A creator needs not have a value system, for of what use is this value system if not to the created? In essence, does your God have a conscience? A value system, in my opinion, is only useful to humans...

Please tell what a Creator needs a value system for...

God must have created the universe according to some laws, don't you think. Since lawlessness does not produce value or purpose. He must have put himself through these laws to accomplish all that he has, therefore he encourages man to abide by this discipline in order for man to attain "godhood". Just like it applies to secular training, you have to go through training to be empowered to create and make decisions. No? But somehow, you seem to assume that these principles do not apply to god himself. The christian scripture explains that all of natural & human governance reflects the same attributes of god.

Also consider that Allah, Yahweh and Krishna seem to operate by different rules...eg, pork sin, beef sin, etc... think about this, then read my definition of god again..

The fact is there are rules, with rewards and punishments. We are not debating who has the betters, but whether these god's require rules in order to attain godliness/rewards.

turnstoner:
He didn't put this value-systems in our DNA. He chose instead to reveal it to Jews and Arabs only

As a christian, We are told he has his attributes embedded in our consciences. Christianity was meant for all mankind, whether jews or not.

okeyxyz:

God must have created the universe according to some laws, don't you think. Since lawlessness does not produce value or purpose.

Yes, the universe operates under laws, laws that govern its operations, quite different from moral laws which have changed over time.
Also, tornadoes and hurricanes are products of these laws The Creator/God put in place. Does a tornado have a value or a purpose? Do volcanic eruptions have value or purpose?

okeyxyz:
He must have put himself through these laws to accomplish all that he has, therefore he encourages man to abide by this discipline in order for man to attain "godhood". Just like it applies to secular training, you have to go through training to be empowered to create and make decisions. No?

Do you mean to imply that God was subservient to the very rules he created?

okeyxyz:
Somehow, you seem to assume that these principles do not apply to god himself.

Why should they? He's the creator, what's in it for him? He could as well move along and create something more fun, right? Considering that the universe keeps on expanding, isn't it possible we're created by a rather mad Genuis Creator, sort of, who keeps traversing the universe, creating little play-things and quickly losing interest in them, then moving on? Sounds quite human, doesn't he? Let's agree for argument's sake that the fact the universe exists is proof of God's existence. What's the proof that cares or is even bothered about what we do during our short stay on earth?

okeyxyz:
The christian scripture explains that all of natural & human governance reflects the same attributes of god.

Compare the attributes of love/God in Corinthians 13 with the actions of Yahweh in the OT, then get back to me....

okeyxyz:
The fact is there are rules, with rewards and punishments. We are not debating who has the betters, but whether these god's require rules in order to attain godliness/rewards.

Alright, let's stick to that then...

turnstoner:

@bolded: This pettiness and jealousy......

Are'nt those well known human characteristics?

Can a truly all-knowing and all-powerful be this petty?

No, No it can't.

okeyxyz: @Op

To start with: What is freedom? Maybe we should first learn to define this concept before assuming to make judgments.

Freedom is simply the capability to make a choice. It is not the capability to escape your responsibilities or consequences of your choices, which seems to be your idea of freedom and this does not exist. Your concept of freedom is simply a fantasy.

If you choose god, then it is with a eye on what you hope to benefit(and lose) by that choice. Likewise, if you choose an alternative to god, it is also with an eye on the benefits(& costs) of that choice.

The subject matter at hand is freewill and not freedom. Read the initial post again

musKeeto:
Yes, the universe operates under laws, laws that govern its operations, quite different from moral laws which have changed over time.
Also, tornadoes and hurricanes are products of these laws The Creator/God put in place. Does a tornado have a value or a purpose? Do volcanic eruptions have value or purpose?

I understand how you can totally see them as separate, especially when you observe religious people who "moralize" god. Moral laws as we know them today, are simply a misinterpretation of god, The bible calls them shadows and false. But the fact that people misunderstand god does take away the validity of god himself. God's laws is all about establishing and demonstrating the power of god, And to do so, one must "love" that supreme law of god, while human morality is simply to enable people of diverse leaning and capabilities to co-exist together in peace. So my point is that all laws of nature emanates from god's moral law, even though religion does not understand this ultimate law, and have simply substituted human morality for god's. God's law is the liberty(and empowerment) of man, while man thinks god's law is the denial of man's liberties.

Do you mean to imply that God was subservient to the very rules he created?

Why should they? He's the creator, what's in it for him? He could as well move along and create something more fun, right? Considering that the universe keeps on expanding, isn't it possible we're created by a rather mad Genuis Creator, sort of, who keeps traversing the universe, creating little play-things and quickly losing interest in them, then moving on? Sounds quite human, doesn't he? Let's agree for argument's sake that the fact the universe exists is proof of God's existence. What's the proof that cares or is even bothered about what we do during our short stay on earth?

Why should god not be subject to his own values? Does a man love his wife by killing her? Does a man build a house only be homeless? If god created the universe by laws, then he also solicits these laws to maintain the universe. It is only secular opinions like yours who ascribe lawlessness to god. That god is omni-potent does not make god lawless, rather he employ his powers(omni-impotence) to achieve his desires. Omni-potence simply means that god "has stock of all powers", not that he he doesn't recognize them. Like I said: Your interpretation is only a secular one, no spiritual, And any religious person who thinks so simply has no idea what god is.

And yes, It sounds human. Christian doctrine teaches that we are created in god's "image". If you took that into consideration, you wouldn't be here painting god as beyond the reach or attainment of humanity. Your concept of god is very false. True christianity teaches that he is more human than abstract.

Affiliated:
The subject matter at hand is freewill and not freedom. Read the initial post again

Bros., Abeg what's the difference between "freewill" and "Freedom"?

okeyxyz:

Bros., Abeg what's the difference between "freewill" and "Freedom"?

Merriam Webster dictionary.

Free will
1 : voluntary choice or decision *I do this of my own free will*
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Freedom [Relevant definitions picked]
1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : INDEPENDENCE c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous *freedom from care*

By free will I mean that I should have been able to choose if I wanted to exist in the first place. But once I can make that choice, I already exist. Therefore I do not have free will as regards that aspect. Existence was forced on me

And from a religious point of view, God is always almost interfering with the freedom of humans to 1. make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention or 2. our voluntary choice or decision.
So I wonder on what basis religion claims that God gave us freewill.

There is nothing like absolute freedom

okeyxyz:

[size=18pt]As a christian, We are told[/size] he has his attributes embedded in our consciences. Christianity was meant for all mankind, whether jews or not.

says it all. they can't use their own brains. They just regurgitate what they were told like programmed zombies.

advocate666:
says it all. they can't use their own brains. They just regurgitate what they were told like programmed zombies.

Abeg tell us, You belief in satan: is it based on science or on faith??
It's funny how you readily shoot yourself in the face. All because you want to "spite" christianity. pity...

advocate666:

says it all. they can't use their own brains. They just regurgitate what they were told like programmed zombies.

I agree with you. If Christianity was indeed meant for all mankind, then all mankind would have had it from beginning rather than a conscience which is subject to the morals of the time and place. For example one's conscience wouldn't prick if it was the acceptable tradition to have sex with siblings. Also other animals like dogs, cats, lions and so on have consciences too. Is Christianity also meant for them?

First of, learn me thank you for your patience so far. Usually, you'd just shake me off like a troublesome mosquito

okeyxyz:
I understand how you can totally see them as separate, especially when you observe religious people who "moralize" god. Moral laws as we know them today, are simply a misinterpretation of god, The bible calls them shadows and false. But the fact that people misunderstand god does take away the validity of god himself. God's laws is all about establishing and demonstrating the power of god, And to do so, one must "love" that supreme law of god, while human morality is simply to enable people of diverse leaning and capabilities to co-exist together in peace. So my point is that all laws of nature emanates from god's moral law, even though religion does not understand this ultimate law, and have simply substituted human morality for god's. God's law is the liberty(and empowerment) of man, while man thinks god's law is the denial of man's liberties.

I think I get your point now. So far, it seems you've attempted to separate religion from God. You've also differentiated God's morality and man's. How can one 'love' this God then, and by extension, his moral laws? Must one be religious, a believer in any of the religions to do so?

okeyxyz:
Why should god not be subject to his own values? Does a man love his wife by killing her? Does a man build a house only be homeless? If god created the universe by laws, then he also solicits these laws to maintain the universe. It is only secular opinions like yours who ascribe lawlessness to god. That god is omni-potent does not make god lawless, rather he employ his powers(omni-impotence) to achieve his desires. Omni-potence simply means that god "has stock of all powers", not that he he doesn't recognize them. Like I said: Your interpretation is only a secular one, no spiritual, And any religious person who thinks so simply has no idea what god is.

My error then. Thanks for the clarification.

okeyxyz:
And yes, It sounds human. Christian doctrine teaches that we are created in god's "image". If you took that into consideration, you wouldn't be here painting god as beyond the reach or attainment of humanity. Your concept of god is very false. True christianity teaches that he is more human than abstract.

Hmmm, I agree with you so far, though so you skipped some of my questions like the tornado one...

okeyxyz:

Abeg tell us, You belief in satan: is it based on science or on faith??

it is based on reality and mockery.

Affiliated:

I agree with you. If Christianity was indeed meant for all mankind, then all mankind would have had it from beginning rather than a conscience which is subject to the morals of the time and place. For example one's conscience wouldn't prick if it was the acceptable tradition to have sex with siblings. Also other animals like dogs, cats, lions and so on have consciences too. Is Christianity also meant for them?

Took my next question for okey right out my mouth... Okey, waiting...

If God granted man freewill why did he thereafter create commands?

Kay 17: If God granted man freewill why did he thereafter create commands?

Welcome to the conversation. Doesn't seem too free-willy does it?