striktlymi:

Bros no need to vex o!

I never said that the whole of Europe is religious!

I suggest you read my posts again and verify the bases of my argument. You might want to read the first post from ooman too.

Logicboy03:

@striktlymi: my approach is attacking the influence of religion of the african mind, rather than religion itself. attacking a particular religion is a premise for another debate

We africans have a history of totally relying on a god and belief that all events that happens to us are either a result of his anger or love, because of this, whenever an action is needed, like solving an issue in the community, a God is called upon. This leaves the issue virtually unattended to!

It can be agreed that even though the whites brought major religions to africa, africans are more religious than the whites. Polls show that "blacks spend more time in prayer than whites" and that "blacks expect a God to do things for them than the whites" and that "a blackman would rather prayer than read or think for himself".

The influence that religion has on people is different and that depends on how a people takes their religion or how much they expect from it. We have a history of expecting everything from our gods, this is why no african community ever made a civilisation compared to that which white communities in human history. Whites are "more" evolved than the blacks in knowing that success is by hard work and no God decides success. Religious mentality puts an ounce of laziness in the black man. The thought that "i can take all to the lord in prayer" would make one feel secured and less inclined to carry all responsibility, therefore, our cities are deteriorating.

A black man prefers to pray than work: It has been estimated that africans people spend less time working and more time praying because they believe that mans actions are amplified by God. This is why people pray before or during a football match expecting a God to favor their sides, during such requests, i wonder if people ever think that God answering their prayer deciding which teams wins will make God biased. People think that their prayers can influence football or other events so rather than give in their best, they resort to prayer. This method that has never produced a tangible result, african communities as prove. When Zambia won the last nation's cup, a fan wrote that God is a Zambian, one will just wonder what happens to God is a "zambian" now that they couldnt reach the final, but like all other religious minds, rather than think they need improvement in national team, they would think they are not praying enough.

Having the thought that a "God is always around to help" when there are proofs that Gods does not lacking makes one complacent. This is why religion is dangerous.

Science community believe that if majority were religious, there would be no major scientific discovery because they "take it all to their God in prayer".

Here is a word to ponder on: before science cured most diseases, people died of it, God did not apparently do anything about it, he folded his arms and enjoy watching them die. When science cured most diseases, there was no sign that a God was pleased or not, when science said there is no God, God is remained silent. This shows that even if God exists, he doesnt care about what happens to us, african communities another bleeding proof

The silence of God alone is a prove of his nonexistence.How can he claim to love us and allow a "path to destruction" in the first place.

That said. It is known that God is silent in major areas where evidence should be pouring with him, the gullible african mind failed notice that, so african people remained religions and therefore, we lack basic amenities for a comfortable living because rather than make life comfortable for ourselves, we look to a God to help us and because we look to someone that doesnt exist, we dont have help. We havent even build a single city comparable to NewYork or even Tbilisi in eastern europe.
This is a prove that Prayer cannot help but hardwork.

ooman: @striktlymi: my approach is attacking the influence of religion of the african mind, rather than religion itself. attacking a particular religion is a premise for another debate

ooman are you sure that's your approach? Unless you tell me that your argument is not that religion be kicked of the face of the Earth then I will believe but until then I believe you fight against religion.

You still mistake the misapplication of religion with the right application of it. Applied properly and one's mindset will change for the better.

ooman:
We africans have a history of totally relying on a god and belief that all events that happens to us are either a result of his anger or love, because of this, whenever an action is needed, like solving an issue in the community, a God is called upon. This leaves the issue virtually unattended to!

Like I have mentioned before, a Christian who leaves what he is supposed to do for God then he is far from being a Christian. Every Christian should work hard to achieve results. Praying does not prevent one from working hard.

ooman:
It can be agreed that even though the whites brought major religions to africa, africans are more religious than the whites. Polls show that "blacks spend more time in prayer than whites" and that "blacks expect a God to do things for them than the whites" and that "a blackman would rather prayer than read or think for himself".

I really do not take some poles seriously because this has to do with individual's. The fact that one white man does this does not mean that another white man will do the same. To attribute something done by some members of a population to every member of a population is fallacious. Now check out the following argument:

ooman, Logicboy and Advocate666 are black men...

ooman, Logicboy and Advocate666 are Atheists...

Therefore every black man is an Atheist...

#get my point?

ooman:
The influence that religion has on people is different and that depends on how a people takes their religion or how much they expect from it. We have a history of expecting everything from our gods, this is why no african community ever made a civilisation compared to that which white communities in human history. Whites are "more" evolved than the blacks in knowing that success is by hard work and no God decides success. Religious mentality puts an ounce of laziness in the black man. The thought that "i can take all to the lord in prayer" would make one feel secured and less inclined to carry all responsibility, therefore, our cities are deteriorating.

The bold is actually your personal opinion on the matter as I have pointed out before. People are lazy because they want to and not because of religion...this is just like saying that a man died because of a gun...gun's don't go about killing people. I have shown how the item in red is not taught by religion.

ooman:
A black man prefers to pray than work: It has been estimated that africans people spend less time working and more time praying because they believe that mans actions are amplified by God. This is why people pray before or during a football match expecting a God to favor their sides, during such requests, i wonder if people ever think that God answering their prayer deciding which teams wins will make God biased. People think that their prayers can influence football or other events so rather than give in their best, they resort to prayer. This method that has never produced a tangible result, african communities as prove. When Zambia won the last nation's cup, a fan wrote that God is a Zambian, one will just wonder what happens to God is a "zambian" now that they couldnt reach the final, but like all other religious minds, rather than think they need improvement in national team, they would think they are not praying enough.

I am black but I prefer to work and pray. Those who work less and depend more on prayer are missing the point. WORK IS AN ACT OF PRAYER!...nothing really is wrong with praying...one can pray and work.

ooman: Having the thought that a "God is always around to help" when there are proofs that Gods does not lacking makes one complacent. This is why religion is dangerous.

I don't know what you call proof but what I see here on nairaland are opinions rather than proofs.

ooman: Science community believe that if majority were religious, there would be no major scientific discovery because they "take it all to their God in prayer".

I don't know where you got the above information from but Israel has over 90% of it's population in one religion or the other but Israel is developed. You don't attain development with the mentality you described above.

ooman:
Here is a word to ponder on: before science cured most diseases, people died of it, God did not apparently do anything about it, he folded his arms and enjoy watching them die. When science cured most diseases, there was no sign that a God was pleased or not, when science said there is no God, God is remained silent. This shows that even if God exists, he doesnt care about what happens to us, african communities another bleeding proof

The silence of God alone is a prove of his nonexistence.How can he claim to love us and allow a "path to destruction" in the first place.

The above are just opinions not proof. By your analysis you imply that if an individual decides to use a wheel chair and does not get up when there was a fire in his home...it automatically imply that he cannot walk? This is not correct sir. I believe you need to understand the scientific process for proof. However, since the existence of God is another matter, I won't dwell on this.

ooman:
That said. It is known that God is silent in major areas where evidence should be pouring with him, the gullible african mind failed notice that, so african people remained religions and therefore, we lack basic amenities for a comfortable living because rather than make life comfortable for ourselves, we look to a God to help us and because we look to someone that doesnt exist, we dont have help. We havent even build a single city comparable to NewYork or even Tbilisi in eastern europe.
This is a prove that Prayer cannot help but hardwork.

Even white men have those who are into religion...like I said there is a need to understand the process for proving an assertion.


Thanks!

Area_boy: I've studied this issue extensively and have come to a number of conclusions. we are physically as developed as any other race. However, the way you bring up a child makes all the difference. The way we bring up our children is the one plague for the black man.

Wish I could sit here long enough to explain my point but i have a bad cold . When i get better i'll be back to explain

We drum t far tooooooooooo much religious and superstitious garbage in the minds of our young people. That is the problem.

I have said and asked on numerous occasions why advanced nations do not teach religion or bible or scriptural studies to their elementary and secondary school kids?
There is a good reason.: It is because they have come to understand that it is poison that it hinders imagination and intellectual development.

In Nigeria, religion is drummed in our skulls from infancy as it was food that necessary for survival.

@striktlymi: You know quite well that i dont endorse any religion, though if i am forced to choose between the xtian God, the muslim God, and the Almighty Ifa and the Eternal Ogun, i'd choose the last two, you know why? because when ever i a mistake, hell is not waiting for me.

We can go on and on with this argument but in all of your rejection of my view, mainly because you think inside the Bible, you must agree that religion has an influence in a person state of man. Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the nigerian found guilty of attempted murder in US, would be a great engineer now if not for religion. I also heard that Rev King is about to be killed, the man could be living a great life with his family right now if he hadnt thought that he was hearing from a God.

Religion totally changes the way someone thinks, i do have a different opinion about everything now that i am no longer religious than when i was, and i can tell you i am doing far better now.

What i am attacking in essence is the influence of religion on people and how it gets them to think there is security when there is none.

People spend their time worshiping God because they think that will get them to an heavenly city, but they failed to build an earthly one. That is because they think that making an heavenly city is better than building an earthly one and so our cities lies in deterioration.

Our natural religion never promised people heaven or hell and you know what? Research showed that the african man was better when he was worshiping his own Gods, than now that he worships the strange xtian and muslim God.
We can also blame the xtian God for making slavery part of human history.

The greatest evil on the black community is the advent of the worship of Allah and Jesus.

Thinking they are always around to save one makes the person complacent.

People call for prayer rather than for debates about national matters.

Religion influences the state of mind of a person, i think we both will agree on that, but to prove that religion, especially the strange religions, xtian and islam have a bad influence in the state of mind of a person, i will leave you to do the work, check into the African community, tell me how much success you record in govt and in life convenience?

striktlymi: Good morning ooman,

I am of the opinion that you opened your post well, your premise is a bit shaky and your conclusion is fallacious.

The fact that the black man appears unintelligent to you, does not in any way imply that he is. Intelligence has nothing to do with one's religious affiliation or colour.

Intelligence has to do with an individual's capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts and similar forms of mental activity. It also connotes a high mental capacity. It is a proven fact that the black man has demonstrated all these repeatedly over the years and as such deserves the right to be seen as intelligent.

It is fallacious to conclude that the black man's problem is religion. Italy is one of the 10 most developed countries of the world and as at 2006 they boast of a religious population of over 95%. Spain happens to be another developed country and as at 2011 has over 70% of it's population in one form of religion or the other.

So ooman, if something is to blame for the ish in our dear country and by extension the black race, it is definitely not religion.


Thank you!

Italians and Spaniards are cultural christians. Even at that, it is not surprising that Italy , Spain and Portugal are the economic basket cases of Europe.
They do not, like our fellow citizens , believe the bible to be factual history. They do not, like our fellow citizens, believe that prayer can move mountains. They do not believe, like our fellow countrymen, that god enjoys soccer and favours the Super eagles to win matches.

Evening Plaetton,

Nice of you to drop by!

plaetton:


We drum t far tooooooooooo much religious and superstitious garbage in the minds of our young people. That is the problem.

I have demonstrated repeatedly in my previous posts that religion is not the problem. Those 'superstitious garbage' are also in the minds of many people in some developed countries and they are doing just fine.

plaetton:
I have said and asked on numerous occasions why advanced nations do not teach religion or bible or scriptural studies to their elementary and secondary school kids?

The comment in bold is not accurate. see link below for details:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Israel#Educational_tracks

plaetton:
There is a good reason.: It is because they have come to understand that it is poison that it hinders imagination and intellectual development.

I guess you are not aware that "In 2012, Israel was named the second most educated country in the world according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development's Education at a Glance report". They are religious, they have some state funded schools who teach religion and I bet you that their imagination is not impaired and a lot of them are intellectually developed.

plaetton:
In Nigeria, religion is drummed in our skulls from infancy as it was food that necessary for survival.

See above!

Thank you!

Evening ooman,

ooman: @striktlymi: You know quite well that i dont endorse any religion, though if i am forced to choose between the xtian God, the muslim God, and the Almighty Ifa and the Eternal Ogun, i'd choose the last two, you know why? because when ever i a mistake, hell is not waiting for me.

The above is very funny!

ooman:
We can go on and on with this argument but in all of your rejection of my view, mainly because you think inside the Bible, you must agree that religion has an influence in a person state of man. Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the nigerian found guilty of attempted murder in US, would be a great engineer now if not for religion. I also heard that Rev King is about to be killed, the man could be living a great life with his family right now if he hadnt thought that he was hearing from a God.

I thought Atheists pride themselves in pursuing the truth? Don't tell me that your case is different...you know too well that the bold is false. I challenge you to go through all my posts and bring out anything that suggests that my arguments have been biblical. The only bible reference I put forward was the comment from Paul and that was meant to disprove your assertion that if one is into religion the person is necessarily lazy.

I reject your argument because for the most part they are fallacious. I believe any truth seeking atheist would see that even though he might not necessarily agree on my stance. If you say something true, I will surely agree with it but I can't agree with a statement that is fallacious. That would be running away from the truth.

ooman:
Religion totally changes the way someone thinks, i do have a different opinion about everything now that i am no longer religious than when i was, and i can tell you i am doing far better now.

ooman the above shows that when you were into religion you did not practice what was preached (assuming you were a christian now). Quick question: the religion teach you to be lazy when you were involved?

ooman:
What i am attacking in essence is the influence of religion on people and how it gets them to think there is security when there is none.

People spend their time worshiping God because they think that will get them to an heavenly city, but they failed to build an earthly one. That is because they think that making an heavenly city is better than building an earthly one and so our cities lies in deterioration.

Our natural religion never promised people heaven or hell and you know what? Research showed that the african man was better when he was worshiping his own Gods, than now that he worships the strange xtian and muslim God.
We can also blame the xtian God for making slavery part of human history.

The greatest evil on the black community is the advent of the worship of Allah and Jesus.

Thinking they are always around to save one makes the person complacent.

People call for prayer rather than for debates about national matters.

Religion influences the state of mind of a person, i think we both will agree on that, but to prove that religion, especially the strange religions, xtian and islam have a bad influence in the state of mind of a person, i will leave you to do the work, check into the African community, tell me how much success you record in govt and in life convenience?

I believe I have responded to the above in my previous arguments.


Thank you!

plaetton:

Italians and Spaniards are cultural christians. Even at that, it is not surprising that Italy , Spain and Portugal are the economic basket cases of Europe.
They do not, like our fellow citizens , believe the bible to be factual history. They do not, like our fellow citizens, believe that prayer can move mountains. They do not believe, like our fellow countrymen, that god enjoys soccer and favours the Super eagles to win matches.

Well Plaetton I don't understand what you mean by 'cultural christians'. What I do know is that the Spaniards and Italians are not all Christians.

@Bold: if I didn't know any better, I would have thought that you were trying to speak for the white man...in the event that I am wrong, I do not think you are in the best position to speak for them.

Thank you!

@striktlymi: what is funny in accepting the wise Ogun and Ifa and rejecting the cruel xtian and muslim God.

You refused to agree that you are thinking within the book, but if you are not thinking within the book, why are you speaking for the book and its supposed spiritual writer.

It is obvious that since nothing is biologically wrong with the black man, then something must be wrong with his way of life. What way of life does the black man hold so dearly? Religion.

You argument are baseless on the fact that you would accept that everything else is wrong with the blackman, or even that he less evolved or was created with less intelligent, but you never agree with the fact that something could be wrong with your religion, because you have been brainwashed by the book.

When i said your thinking are within the book, i dont mean you quoting the bible, i mean you thinking only in line with what your God wants that you forgot to think about what is needed to be done about the black man's community.

You may not realize the point am making because of your shortsightedness as caused by the Holy Book. when you think outside the book, you will understand that something needs to be done about the black man's community and religion needs to be eradicated from among us.

Good morning ooman,

ooman: @striktlymi: what is funny in accepting the wise Ogun and Ifa and rejecting the cruel xtian and muslim God.

Funny ke? Sorry sir, it aint funny. If you choose to follow Ifa then it will be purely your choice which you have a right to.

ooman:
You refused to agree that you are thinking within the book, but if you are not thinking within the book, why are you speaking for the book and its supposed spiritual writer.

You are really funny! Does the fact that I speak up for gay rights make me gay? There have been occassions where I have spoken up for some criticism against Muslims...does that make me a muslim? Or does that make me a believer of the quran? I think not! Note that my argument have not being in favour of a particular religion...on the contrary I have argued that religion in general is not the problem and I have backed each argument with verifiable evidence.

ooman:
It is obvious that since nothing is biologically wrong with the black man, then something must be wrong with his way of life. What way of life does the black man hold so dearly? Religion.

I have shown repeatedly that thoughts like the above are fallacious. The fact that striktlymi is black and does things in a particular way does not imply that ooman (who is black) will do those same things too. Anyways, I have proven that some of those developed countries have people who hold religion dear and they are doing just fine.

ooman:
You argument are baseless on the fact that[b] you would accept that everything else is wrong with the blackman, or even that he less evolved or was created with less intelligent,[/b] but you never agree with the fact that something could be wrong with your religion, because you have been brainwashed by the book.

The bold are your arguments that I have continually refuted and disproved. Hope you are not pushing them to me o? They are your thoughts and you should take ownership for them afterall the black man needs to start taking responsibilities for his actions.

ooman:
When i said your thinking are within the book, i dont mean you quoting the bible, i mean you thinking only in line with what your God wants that[b] you forgot to think about what is needed to be done about the black man's community[/b].

Sorry to say ooman but the bold comment is a blatant lie. I have been the one trying to bring your attention to the need of re-defining the problem in order for us to identify the actual problems and probably tackle them but you are so focused on your fight against religion that you seem to forget about the black man.

ooman:
You may not realize the point am making because of your shortsightedness as caused by the Holy Book. when you think outside the book, you will understand that something needs to be done about the black man's community and religion needs to be eradicated from among us.

The above is a classic example of one who is attacking the straw man. All my arguments are backed up by verifiable evidence. I challenge you to refute all that I have said so far with hard evidence and not opinions.


Thank you!

@striktlymi: speaking for gay rights doesnt make you gay, it only makes you a supporter of the gay behavior, therefore all your thinking will be decided by what favors the gay movement, which is why you would support their rights in the first place. Therefore, though you are not gay, gay behavior controls your thought!

There are other things wrong with the black man, but religion is on top of the list.

All you arguments are not backed by "variable" evidences, you dont know the way of life of the people you are refering to, they dont think like the black man, they dont believe that God can help them build their cities or influence their govt or football. I live among them so i know.

Before i continue, let me leave you to answer a question i posed to you before, which you ignored:

Religion influences the state of mind of a person, i think we both will agree on that, but to prove that religion, especially the strange religions, xtian and islam have a bad influence in the state of mind of a person, i will leave you to do the work, check into the African community, tell me how much success you record in govt and in life convenience?

striktlymi: Evening ooman,



The above is very funny!



I thought Atheists pride themselves in pursuing the truth? Don't tell me that your case is different...you know too well that the bold is false. I challenge you to go through all my posts and bring out anything that suggests that my arguments have been biblical. The only bible reference I put forward was the comment from Paul and that was meant to disprove your assertion that if one is into religion the person is necessarily lazy.

I reject your argument because for the most part they are fallacious. I believe any truth seeking atheist would see that even though he might not necessarily agree on my stance. If you say something true, I will surely agree with it but I can't agree with a statement that is fallacious. That would be running away from the truth.



ooman the above shows that when you were into religion you did not practice what was preached (assuming you were a christian now). Quick question: the religion teach you to be lazy when you were involved?



I believe I have responded to the above in my previous arguments.


Thank you!

Ha ha ha.
Using fallacies to back up fallacies.

I find it funny that of all the advanced countries in the world, you chose to use Israel as your sample. Have you lived in Israel? Why did you not use Saudi Arabia?

And pls where and when did Israel qualify or classified as an advanced country? What is Israel GDP? How do they rank in the standard of living index?

And by the way, are you aware or did you forget that Israel gets approximately $20 billion in free aid every year from the US? Take away that freebie, and lets measure Israel's economy and standard of living?

Take away the enormous financial clout and donations of diaspora jews, the intellectual and technological contributions of returnee jews from the former Soviet Union and the US, and lets see how strong and advanced the nation really is.

Pls stop trying to sell your personal delusions about Israel being a prosperous nation.
While they have done well, they have not been classified as an advanced nation by any measurable standards.

And lastly, let me remind you, in case that you dont know, that although most Jews still practice their Judaic faith, A significant number of Jews are not religious, and even hold atheistic viewpoints.

So using Israel as poster nation to showcase the goodness of religion is , at best, disingenuous.

Good afternoon ooman,

ooman: @striktlymi: speaking for gay rights doesnt make you gay, it only makes you a supporter of the gay behavior, therefore all your thinking will be decided by what favors the gay movement, which is why you would support their rights in the first place. Therefore, though you are not gay, gay behavior controls your thought!

It seems you can't post without being fallacious! All you said up there is nothing but FALLACY!

ooman:
There are other things wrong with the black man, but religion is on top of the list.

I have already disproved the bold comment.

ooman:
All you arguments are not backed by "variable" evidences, you dont know the way of life of the people you are refering to, they dont think like the black man, they dont believe that God can help them build their cities or influence their govt or football. I live among them so i know.

'Variable' evidence? Why one Earth would you want an evidence to be 'variable'? Evidence is meant to help one determine what is true and draw a conclusion. If the evidence becomes 'variable' then you want to vary what is true.

You live among them then you KNOW them?...this got to be the joke of the century. What gives you the impression that you truly know your dad or mum talk less of a complete stranger?...for your info, the only person you know is YOURSELF!!!

Now, you claim to fight for the CAUSE of the black man...you would give up your salvation for them but when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is, you are nowhere to be found.

Unlike you, I believe in the CAUSE of the black man, I don't go off running abroad and leave the people behind...even when I go out, it's never for long. If you are there, who do you want to build the country for you?...I get it, you prefer enjoying the fruits of the white man's labour?...makes perfect sense now! You have no right whatsoever to accuse any black man when you also are not ready for nation building.

ooman:
Before i continue, let me leave you to answer a question i posed to you before, which you ignored:

Religion influences the state of mind of a person, i think we both will agree on that, but to prove that religion, especially the strange religions, xtian and islam have a bad influence in the state of mind of a person, i will leave you to do the work, check into the African community, tell me how much success you record in govt and in life convenience?

I will leave you to come back from wherever you ran to, to determine the answer for yourself. I know practical answers casuse I am not a runaway. Come back home then we will talk about it.

@striktlymi: When i said "live among them", i dont mean permanently, i also come back home. But we will all agree that "there" is just better. I need to move away from the african mentality a bit, so that i dont get possessed by the same "holy" spirit that seem to possess all of you

You seem to always run away from that question. Pls answer it for sincerity's sake and we will pick up from there.

Well you can run away from it all you want, but the fact is that our leaders are religious, and they are not successful. They failed in their fields and its because of their thinking, as driven by their various religions. Check other lands, the reason for their success is because of the separation of the state from the church. Now dont start giving me Isreal, Saudi Arabia etc as examples of countries that do not separate state from church, we know that those are religious lands besides, Israel's past rulers were either atheists and agnostics so you see their success was never driven by people with a god in their mind.

Once God is off a person's mind, he see things the way they are, he see approach matters the way they should be approached. Once God is out of Africa, we will start raising better leaders, i just wonder where people like you will be then, probably in paradise, because i dont see religion leaving africa in a short time, and that also means poverty will persist.

I just wish to add that teaching Judaism to jews is just like a history lesson to them. Just like telling a bunch of yoruba kids that oduduwa fell from heaven and here they are. It is their own history so should not adversely affect them as there is no disconnect.
The problem is when a black fellow starts believing that he is somehow also part of that history and forms his life accordingly. Only poverty and misery could result from such belief.

advocate666: I just wish to add that teaching Judaism to jews is just like a history lesson to them. Just like telling a bunch of yoruba kids that oduduwa fell from heaven and here they are. It is their own history so should not adversely affect them as there is no disconnect.
The problem is when a black fellow starts believing that he is somehow also part of that history and forms his life accordingly. Only povertry and misery could result from such belief.

Bros, the bolded is the one that not only amuses me, but also makes me wanna cry.

How does a black skinned African foolishly delude himself into accepting that he is somehow, connected to ancient Hebrew myths and legends?

The black race , more than any other race, suffer from the worst case of self-deprecation and self-denial.

It is very sad to see a black man worshiping and begging to be accepted by a mythical deity that clearly(in the bible) promoted racial hatred, and absolutely had no tolerance for foreigners.

advocate666: I just wish to add that teaching Judaism to jews is just like a history lesson to them. Just like telling a bunch of yoruba kids that oduduwa fell from heaven and here they are. It is their own history so should not adversely affect them as there is no disconnect.
The problem is when a black fellow starts believing that he is somehow also part of that history and forms his life accordingly. Only povertry and misery could result from such belief.

Sorry advocate but your conclusion does not follow logic. Christians in Europe are not Jews yet Christianity made it's way there.

Using someone's colour as a basis for the level of influence from religion is fallacious. You are black but you chose Satanism. The link you provided to me for satanism was created by white men.

It seems to me that you are what you accuse people of. Your thoughts are about satanism in line with what your white bosses want.

Why can't we practice what we preach?

Good day ooman,

ooman: @striktlymi: When i said "live among them", i dont mean permanently, i also come back home. But we will all agree that "there" is just better. I need to move away from the african mentality a bit, so that i dont get possessed by the same "holy" spirit that seem to possess all of you

You seem to always run away from that question. Pls answer it for sincerity's sake and we will pick up from there.

The above comment is a typical example of what you accuse the black man of. You talk about liberation of the mind but yours is not liberated...so you need to leave Africa to think and act right?...Haba ooman that is not the way...Well that's the difference between you and I.

I know who I am and I don't need to leave the country to act right and think right. Even when I travel out, I am always aware of who I am...I don't permit unnecessary negative influence from any white man.

You really need to know who you are and be you wherever you go. You really do not need to leave Africa to have an opinion or the right mentality. This is what some African's lack. Self belief and confidence!

ooman:
Well you can run away from it all you want, but the fact is that our leaders are religious, and they are not successful. They failed in their fields and its because of their thinking, as driven by their various religions.

This is where you are very wrong. The fact that one claims to be religious does not imply it. I have seen people claim what they are not! If you say you are a Christian and you steal then what kind of Christian are you?

One does not fail because of religion. I have given a number of evidence to support my claims. So I won't dwell on that.

ooman:
Check other lands, the reason for their success is because of the separation of the state from the church. Now dont start giving me Isreal, Saudi Arabia etc as examples of countries that do not separate state from church, we know that those are religious lands besides, Israel's past rulers were either atheists and agnostics so you see their success was never driven by people with a god in their mind.

Oh ooman...you really disappoint me with this argument. What makes you think that success is driven by someone's beliefs? Now let me enlighten you a bit...we have what they call success drivers....these are not based one's belief, lack of belief or a refusal to believe so it is immaterial who the leader is. I don't care if Nigeria is lead by an Atheist tomorrow...if a leader does not follow the path to success he or she will fail.

Let me give you an example...if we have two students, one is an Atheist while the other a christian. Success for both is not dependent on their belief or refusal to believe. Success in studies depends on other factors like: ability to assimilate, number of time put into personal studies etc It's not about the belief.

Now, if you are made the president and your first term in office you outlaw religion then you are heading on a collusion cause because you will be chasing shadows. Do you know the difference between a Russia and an Israel?...I will tell you: The 'leaders' of Russia were chasing after shadows, trying to eradicate religion while that of Israel knows all too well that religion is not the problem, they did not attempt to eliminate religion as Russia did...they focused rather on these success drivers...the result today is that Israel is developed while Russia is still developing.

ooman:
Once God is off a person's mind, he see things the way they are, he see approach matters the way they should be approached. Once God is out of Africa, we will start raising better leaders, i just wonder where people like you will be then, probably in paradise, because i dont see religion leaving africa in a short time, and that also means poverty will persist.

I have previously demonstrated that the above is false!

Thank you!

You need to learn from those who have answers, if not you will only continue to languish in your plight, one reason why most africans remain religious. I also know who i am, there is no denying that fact, i am black and that always remind me i dont belong anywhere outside home, which is why i have traded the salvation of my soul for the "salvation" of my land in the first place!

I disappointed you with my argument, no, no, you disappointed with refusing to accept the simple fact that success is driven by your beliefs. What makes you think that success is not driven by one's beliefs. what makes you an achiever is if you think you can achieve. i am going to repeat it again, SUCCESS IS DRIVEN BY YOUR BELIEFS AND THOUGHTS. IT IS VERY DANGEROUS WHEN YOUR THOUGHTS ARE CONTROLLED BY ANCIENT MYTH WRITTEN IN HOLY BOOKS, THE ONLY RESULT OF SUCH IS FAILURE, AS SEEN IN AFRICA.

The problem is not that the black man can't work harder, the problem is that the black man loves to pray for longer hours.

Here is a fact i love: when there is no God to thank and when there is no Devil(Lucifer, the Great) to blame, you feel the responsibility laid on you.

ooman: You need to learn from those who have answers, if not you will only continue to languish in your plight,

I laugh in swahili...who has answers?...certainly not you! Fallacy and answers have nothing in common!

ooman:
one reason why most africans remain religious. I also know who i am, there is no denying that fact, i am black and that always remind me i dont belong anywhere outside home, which is why i have traded the salvation of my soul for the "salvation" of my land in the first place!

Your comment below shows that the bold is a lie:

ooman: But we will all agree that "there" is just better. I need to move away from the african mentality a bit,

ooman:
I disappointed you with my argument, no, no, you disappointed with refusing to accept the simple fact that success is driven by your beliefs. What makes you think that success is not driven by one's beliefs. what makes you an achiever is if you think you can achieve. i am going to repeat it again, SUCCESS IS DRIVEN BY YOUR BELIEFS AND THOUGHTS. IT IS VERY DANGEROUS WHEN YOUR THOUGHTS ARE CONTROLLED BY ANCIENT MYTH WRITTEN IN HOLY BOOKS, THE ONLY RESULT OF SUCH IS FAILURE, AS SEEN IN AFRICA.

Now ooman, beliefs do not make someone successful! If you refuse to believe in God this does not stop you from achieving something in the society. If you believe you are going to pass an exam but do not work towards achieving that goal, you will FAIL!...If you believe you can swim but refused to learn the rudiments of swimming you will drown...you get the picture or should I continue?

Beliefs without action is NOTHING!...If someone does not believe in studying but decides to study anyways and does it diligently despite his lack of belief, that individual will most likely pass his exams, other factors remaining constant. Belief does not give you success...ACTION does!!!

ooman:
The problem is not that the black man can't work harder, the problem is that the black man loves to pray for longer hours.

I have explained the above before. It bothers on the fallacy of hasty generalization. Not every black man is like that. Some blacks are sadly like that but the problem is not that they pray longer...nope, the problem is that some black men do not know how to pray.

I have explained to you that working is a form of prayer. One can dedicate his or her work as an act of prayer to God. One need not spend donkey hours in church before he or she prays for a long time. So those who misplace their priorities are doing wrong.

ooman:
Here is a fact i love: when there is no God to thank and when there is no Devil(Lucifer, the Great) to blame, you feel the responsibility laid on you.

Are you serious?...you call the above fact?...for the purpose of this discuss FACT is something that is true, on the other hand an opinion is a personal view about something. I need not kill time disproving the above cause it is just your opinion.

Thank you!

you laugh over what exactly? would you also deny that the whites have scientific, therefore emperical, therefore logical answers to nature than the gift of bible they have endowed the blackman?

moving away from my land, to learn from the pros and then returning doesnt mean i don't love my land. its because I care that we are having this discussion in the first place.

your beliefs drive you. if u believe you can swim, then after learning, you will swim, but if you dont believe that you can swim, dont bother learning, you will not get it right. your beliefs influence your every action
this is what successful men call their secret yet you deny it.

I have realized that you are not ready to accept anything outside the view of your religion, I should have realized this earlier.

believing in god makes you think that somehow, a god cares for you and therefore is involved in all of ur success, when things aren't good, believe in a god also makes u think that 'Jehovah knows'. That thought is enough to make you complacent, the result is failure, as it is evident all over africa.

I maintain that when you dont have a rich sky daddy to pray to, you would feel the need to work. and when you dont have a younger brother to lie on for stealing the meat, you'd feel the urge to take responsibility for your actions.

Good evening plaetton,

Sorry I just saw your post!

plaetton:

Ha ha ha.
Using fallacies to back up fallacies.

Do itemize the fallacies I committed with evidence!

plaetton:
I find it funny that of all the advanced countries in the world, you chose to use Israel as your sample.

The above shows that you haven't been following our conversation because I have used several advance countries and really in order to disprove an assertion, a sample of one is sufficient. Anyways, it is on record that I used Spain, Italy and Romania also.

plaetton:
Have you lived in Israel?

plaetton are you sure you are in the 21st century? Have you heard the phrase: "the world is a global village?". Don't tell me that there are Atheists who still live in the past! That question is like saying one needs to live in the USA to get information about Abraham Lincoln.

plaetton:
Why did you not use Saudi Arabia?

Don't tell me that you are not aware of the development status of Saudi Arabia?...or do you think I need to live there to know? Okay...I didn't use Saudi Arabia because it is a developing country. We are concerned about developed countries.

plaetton:
And pls where and when did Israel qualify or classified as an advanced country? What is Israel GDP? How do they rank in the standard of living index?

plaetton sorry to say but the above questions are embarrassing. Since you do not know...let me school you a bit:

Israel is a developed country.

Israel's GDP in terms of purchasing power parity (PPP) at 2011 estimates is about $237 billion which is 50th in the world.

Israel's nominal GDP at 2011 estimate is about $244 billion which is the 41st in the world.

Israel's per capita income in terms of PPP is $%31,467 which is the 26th highest in the world.

Israel's per capita income (nominal) is $32,351 which is the 27th highest in the world.

Israel is ranked 47th in the Standard of living index and 17th in the Human Development Index as at 2011.

Should I go on?

plaetton:
And by the way, are you aware or did you forget that Israel gets approximately $20 billion in free aid every year from the US? Take away that freebie, and lets measure Israel's economy and standard of living?

plaetton must you lie about the aid Israel get from the USA each year? Israel's aid is an average of $3 billion dollars each year and the chunk goes to the military. see evidence below.

Now plaetton let me school you a bit more..."freebies" are not used to calculate the standard of living of a people. To measure the standard of living of a people, you consider both qualitative and quantitative factors. Generally, we use the level of real income (i.e income adjusted for inflation) per person and the poverty rate. Other factors we consider are: quality of health care and access to it, standard of education, life expectancy etc. A good measure for most of these factors is the Human Development Index (HDI) of which the state of Israel boasts of one of the highest in the world with a score of 0.888, which happens to be the 17th highest in the world where the UK comes a far 28th as compared with Israel.

plaetton:
Take away the enormous financial clout and donations of diaspora jews, the intellectual and technological contributions of returnee jews from the former Soviet Union and the US, and lets see how strong and advanced the nation really is.

Plaetton I need not say anything about the above cause you don't know what you are talking about. Just know that Israel is a developed country. Don't go out to tell people all that you have posted here o.

plaetton:
Pls stop trying to sell your personal delusions about Israel being a prosperous nation.

From the evidence I have provided everyone knows who is delusional. Let your argument speak for you!

plaetton:
While they have done well, they have not been classified as an advanced nation by any measurable standards.

@Bold: DELUSION EXTRAORDINAIRE!!!

plaetton:
And lastly, let me remind you, in case that you dont know, that although most Jews still practice their Judaic faith, A significant number of Jews are not religious, and even hold atheistic viewpoints.

So using Israel as poster nation to showcase the goodness of religion is , at best, disingenuous.

Well plaetton the above shows that you don't know what the argument is about and how I have used the countries I sighted.


Thank you!

Good morning ooman,

I trust you had a splendid night's rest and your family is fine!

ooman: you laugh over what exactly? would you also deny that the whites have scientific, therefore emperical, therefore logical answers to nature than the gift of bible they have endowed the blackman?

I am shocked that you have consistently shown that you lack a proper grasp of some basics...though you seem better than plaetton. Take a seat again let me school you...

Anyone can apply the scientific process. The scientific process does not belong to the whites. Science is not affiliated to any race, colour or creed, Science is neutral and is available to anyone who cares to use it.

Secondly the 'gift of the bible' was not given solely to the black man. The white men you worship were also presented with this gift...I will suggest you study how the bible got to Europe and beyond.

Thirdly, comparing science and the bible only shows a lack of insight. Science is empirical which we can describe as a source of knowledge 'acquired by means of observation and experiment'. On the other hand the bible is a collection of various books which Christians believe are inspired by God.

Having the bible does not in any way imply that someone cannot study or apply science. Have you heard of Georges Lemaître? Have you heard of the theory of the metric expansion of space?...Well I don't think you have...you really should read more. This theory was propounded first by Georges Lemaître who happens to be a priest. He combined both science and sacred scriptures successfully.

The only difference between an Atheist scientists and a religious scientists is that in areas where science is yet to provide answers, the religious person allows faith to take over as opposed to the Atheist. I need not be teaching you all these...these are things you ought to know.

ooman:
moving away from my land, to learn from the pros and then returning doesnt mean i don't love my land. its because I care that we are having this discussion in the first place.

You are getting it very wrong again. I know you care (though your motive is suspicious) and I believe it is good to go there to learn in areas where facilities are not adequate in Nigeria but my problem with you is that you went there without having an informed opinion hence the change in mentality you talked about. Like I have mentioned before, I don't need anyone whether white, black, pastor or priest in order to have an informed opinion.

ooman:
your beliefs drive you. if u believe you can swim, then after learning, you will swim, but if you dont believe that you can swim, dont bother learning, you will not get it right. your beliefs influence your every action this is what successful men call their secret yet you deny it.

You still get this wrong after I took my time to school you?...Let me illustrate with another example. Not every soldier believes in the cause of, say, a war. Success in the war however does not depend on the soldiers beliefs but on some other factors like the best equipped side, best in war tactics, the survival instinct and a host of other factors. Belief in itself does not achieve results...I agree that it can be an edge but it does not achieve result Belief without action is NOTHING!!!

ooman:
I have realized that you are not ready to accept anything outside the view of your religion, I should have realized this earlier.

I provided you with evidence yet you adamantly refuse to accept but you want me to accept your opinion that is not backed by evidence? Haba ooman, I am not that gullible...I thought Atheists pride themselves in pursuing truths backed with evidence? Don't tell me your case is different o!

ooman:
believing in god makes you think that somehow, a god cares for you and therefore is involved in all of ur success, when things aren't good, believe in a god also makes u think that 'Jehovah knows'. That thought is enough to make you complacent, the result is failure, as it is evident all over africa.

I maintain that when you dont have a rich sky daddy to pray to, you would feel the need to work. and when you dont have a younger brother to lie on for stealing the meat, you'd feel the urge to take responsibility for your actions.

I have disproved the above a number of times.

No one says the process belongs to them, but they understand it better than YOU do so i will learn from them

You claim to "teach, school" me, if that makes you seem intelligent to your self, enjoy it, but i think i am the one trying to save you from the stupidity of religion and from the slavery of God.

You claim to have disproved my points but failed to realize most africans want everything from God, therefore you cannot say because YOU dont, then you are right.you cant offer yourself as proof, what matters is what the majority believes. The majority believes that God can do all things and we are in poverty, you believe that you should work and i suppose you are working, but what difference does that make on that african community? none, because what matters is what the majority believes.

Yes, I left because i was interested in genetics and studying genetics in nigeria is like digging your own grave before commiting suicide. You will never find work, i have so many jobless (but brilliant) geneticist as friend today in Nigeria, trying to read pharmacy so that they could get work and raise a family.

I am well informed about everything i speak of and for, though i dont claim to know it all.

Yes i know about Georges Lemaître, i know cosmos so you presuming i wouldnt know about him is rude. He proposed big bang in a sense. I also know of Faraday's work on electricity, these people are xtians but their work neither proves or disproves God, it only add to general understanding of science. Therefore, they are irrelevant in this discussion

if you really thing that comparing science with the bible "only shows a lack of insight", pls dont bring up God or bible whenever we are discussing science.

Keep talking for this god like an obligation, i hope that gives you a room in paradise, dont be so disappointed when you realize that paradise itself is another children story.

Oh ooman you are up already!

ooman:

No one says the process belongs to them, but they understand it better than YOU do so i will learn from them

Um...ooman you said:

ooman: you also deny that the whites have scientific, therefore emperical, therefore logical answers to nature

The bold suggests ownership!

ooman:
You claim to "teach, school" me, if that makes you seem intelligent to your self, enjoy it, but i think i am the one trying to save you from the stupidity of religion and from the slavery of God.

LWKMD...ooman has turned from a concerned Nigerian to saviour. If the phrase 'school you' offends you, I will stop using it.

ooman:
You claim to have disproved my points but failed to realize most africans want everything from God, therefore you cannot say because YOU dont, then you are right.you cant offer yourself as proof, what matters is what the majority believes. The majority believes that God can do all things and we are in poverty, you believe that you should work and i suppose you are working, but what difference does that make on that african community? none, because what matters is what the majority believes.

ooman you are wrong again...I did not set out to prove that I am an exception to the case. I only used myself as one example to disprove your claims...you only need a sample of one to disprove an assertion. I allso do not claim to know how the black man tinks. I only know how I think hence the example of myself.

You on the other hand claims to know how the majority of black people think. Are you aware that you do not know upto a million black men? Talk less of knowing how a majority (which suggests more than 50%) think and react to religion. Stop the claims and focus on the facts.

ooman:
Yes, I left because i was interested in genetics and studying genetics in nigeria is like digging your own grave before commiting suicide. You will never find work, i have so many jobless (but brilliant) geneticist as friend today in Nigeria, trying to read pharmacy so that they could get work and raise a family.

Bravo ooman you just spoke the truth...let's try and make this a habit.

ooman:
I am well informed about everything i speak of and for, though i dont claim to know it all.

I don't know it all too but in areas where you do know, demonstrate this knowledge through your argument.

ooman:
Yes i know about Georges Lemaître, i know cosmos so you presuming i wouldnt know about him is rude. He proposed big bang in a sense. I also know of Faraday's work on electricity, these people are xtians

@Bold: I apologize if I came out as rude!

ooman:
but their work neither proves or disproves God, it only add to general understanding of science. Therefore, they are irrelevant in this discussion

This now is what is irrelevant to the discuss...we are not discussing about God's existence.

ooman:
if you really thing that comparing science with the bible "only shows a lack of insight", pls dont bring up God or bible whenever we are discussing science.

Well ooman, you are the one bringing up God into the conversation not me.

ooman:
Keep talking for this god like an obligation, i hope that gives you a room in paradise, dont be so disappointed when you realize that paradise itself is another children story.

You are the one talking about God as if it is your life's ambition to discredit him. So let's leave God out of it and discuss.


Thank you!

I can say i know how majority think because decisions are result of what the majority think, so the poverty of africa is as a result of the majority being poor, therefore, the mentality of the majority affect us, do you understand?

You are the one who said "He combined both science and sacred scriptures successfully" therefore, i said that you shouldnt bring God up in this subject matter because you saying "combined both science and sacred scriptures successfully" suggest that a God must exist.

We are discussing how religion affects the blackman's state of mind, but you have brought up the white man times and again. You are the one going off course always.

Why dont yo let's limit it to africa alone.

I like you by the way, you got me thinking. I love it when people get me thinking.

ooman: I can say i know how majority think because decisions are result of what the majority think, so the poverty of africa is as a result of the majority being poor, therefore, the mentality of the majority affect us, do you understand?

You are the one who said "He combined both science and sacred scriptures successfully" therefore, i said that you shouldnt bring God up in this subject matter because you saying "combined both science and sacred scriptures successfully" suggest that a God must exist.

We are discussing how religion affects the blackman's state of mind, but you have brought up the white man times and again. You are the one going off course always.

Why dont yo let's limit it to africa alone.

I like you by the way, you got me thinking. I love it when people get me thinking.

I will attend to this when I return! I am about driving down to see my parents.

Don't miss me too much!

Good afternoon ooman,

I just got to my destination and I am a bit tired but I will respond as 'best' as I can given the circumstance.

ooman: I can say i know how majority think because decisions are result of what the majority think, so the poverty of africa is as a result of the majority being poor, therefore, the mentality of the majority affect us, do you understand?

I beg to disagree with the bold ooman. History and even the present do not support your claim that decisions are the result of what the majority think. I agree that some decisions are taken by a majority in some cases but this is not always the case, hence the flaw in your thought process.

I believe you know of the term: "Dominant minority". This is when a minority of people have overwhelming influence on the culture, economics and politics of a country even when they constitute a small fraction of the total population. An example of countries who have been affected by this seeming anomaly includes South Africa during the apartheid regime. So if you base your argument on vast majority then I respectfully say it is incorrect.

ooman:
You are the one who said "He combined both science and sacred scriptures successfully" therefore, i said that you shouldnt bring God up in this subject matter because you saying "combined both science and sacred scriptures successfully" suggest that a God must exist.

Wrong again...I only used the phrase: "He combined both science and sacred scriptures successfully" as an illustration to disprove the claim you made. You attempted to put science and the Bible on opposite sides and I argued that one can combine both successfully.

ooman:
We are discussing how religion affects the blackman's state of mind, but you have brought up the white man times and again. You are the one going off course always.

ooman, you and I know that the bold is very FALSE!!! You have been the one bringing up the ish between the black and the white. Take responsibility for your words and let me be responsible for mine. See evidence below:

ooman:
It has been found that blacks and whites have the same number of brain cells, muscle cells etc. It has been biologically confirmed that both races belong to the same species.

ooman:
[i]All white people share one thing in common, their cities are developed and they are very modern in their behavior.
All white people also share one thing in common, they are not "all" (majority are not) religious.[/i]

ooman:
Why dont yo let's limit it to africa alone.

I can limit it to Africa but the problem is your argument compares Africa with other Continents of the world. If you argue this way, I am forced to disprove your assertions in a similar way. If you want Africa then let's stop the comparison. Using words and phrases like: Developed countries, Developing countries, whites etc is not restrictive to Africa alone.

ooman:
I like you by the way, you got me thinking. I love it when people get me thinking.

@Striklymi

Thanks for the correction. My figure of $20 billion were wrong. $3 billion per annum of direct aid is more like it. But you forgot to mention of several billion in loan guarantees by the US to Israel.

$3 billion in free money and several billions in loan guarantees(loans without collateral) is no small change to a developing country.
A freebie by any other name is still a freebie, whether it is for military or economic development. Besides military development spill over into other areas of the economy.

Now, I admire Israel for their tenacity and their ingenuity for doing well under harsh geographical conditions. But how does a country that ranks 27th,41st,50th and 27th on various indices qualify as an advanced country?

You mentioned earlier that Israel is know for technology. So what ?
Ireland is a hightech hub. Taiwan is a hightech hub. Hong Kong is a hightech hub, India is a hightech giant. Brazil is a hightech middleweight, China is a hightech giant, and so on.
What makes Israel different from all the above?
In this century, there is no mystery behind technological advancement.

Israel is a developing country that is doing well, because , just like all the countries mentioned above, they put a high premium on quality education.

Its all about education education, education. Quality education.
It has nothing to do with any religious or spiritual mumbo jumbo.
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

plaetton: @Striklymi

Thanks for the correction. My figure of $20 billion were wrong. $3 billion per annum of direct aid is more like it. But you forgot to mention of several billion in loan guarantees by the US to Israel.

$3 billion in free money and several billions in loan guarantees(loans without collateral) is no small change to a developing country.
A freebie by any other name is still a freebie, whether it is for military or economic development. Besides military development spill over into other areas of the economy.

Now, I admire Israel for their tenacity and their ingenuity for doing well under harsh geographical conditions. But how does a country that ranks 27th,41st,50th and 27th on various indices qualify as an advanced country?

You mentioned earlier that Israel is know for technology. So what ?
Ireland is a hightech hub. Taiwan is a hightech hub. Hong Kong is a hightech hub, India is a hightech giant. Brazil is a hightech middleweight, China is a hightech giant, and so on.
What makes Israel different from all the above?
In this century, there is no mystery behind technological advancement.

Israel is a developing country that is doing well, because , just like all the countries mentioned above, they put a high premium on quality education.

Its all about education education, education. Quality education.
It has nothing to do with any religious or spiritual mumbo jumbo.
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Sorry Plaetton but responding to the above would be a waste of time for some reasons:

1) Israel is a developed country but you deny this when there are facts and figures. No need to show it here. Ask some other Atheists may be you will listen to them.

2) The talk about the loan guarantee only shows that you haven't gone through the data I gave previously. Scroll to the bottom and read it again. Use your glasses this time please and you will find the answers you seek. Below is the data again.

3) Some of the points you raised are irrelevant to the discuss e.g Israel being a high tech country

4) You are derailing the thread cause the discuss is not about Israel as a country.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/US_aid_to_Israel_1946_2013.jpg