With so much cries today about too much emphasis on money and prosperity in the church of God, I would like to sample the opinion of supporters and critics alike on this trend.  Is money evil?  How much emphasis should be placed on prosperity?  Are Christians meant to be poor?  Did Jesus and the Disciples led by example in being super poor or super rich?  Should properity be taught in our churches in the first place?  Does money make you a better or worse christian?  Would you rather be rich or poor?  How does God make people rich if He wants to?
Let the debate begin.

TayoD, hello and well spoken,

Scripturally, in the body of Christ, money only moves for one reason. That reason is "Need". Be it to those within or without the household of faith. It's a form of Christian love and witness.

One of the biggest lies in Christendom today is the saying "It takes money to spread the Gospel". No it doesn't. It didn't in the book of Acts did it?

Can anyone show me one scriptural example (NT) where money moved for anything other than personal need?

It takes money to build temples, pay salaries, host programs. It takes money to create a religious system. Religion is a devourer of widows houses!

The "prosperity Gospel" is not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's "Another".
A place where it is preached may well be called a church, doesn't mean it's a church of God.

Money is not evil, the love of money is!
I think the example was more about not taking thought or paying undue attention to material things.
Material abasement or abounding should make absolutely no difference to a true Christian.
There will always be poor people, ergo there will always be poor Christians.

My starter for 10.

And one last thing, God didn't invent money!

God bless

@ TV01,

My observations:

1) Could you be more specific about what you mean by 'personal need'?

2) Your constant use of the term 'religion' is narrow and seems to be an angst you express towards others who do not fall into your system. Do you care to clarify what you mean by 'religion' and to whom you're referring whenever you use it.

3) What in your eyes is the Church of God?

4) That God didn't invent money means that it is evil in His eyes or what? Has He never directly involved His people in financial transactions in a very positive way? What's the tick with "God didn't invent money"?

Hi 4get me,

By number and in turn.

1.
If there is a "lack" that can be answered by money.

1John 3:17 - But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

James 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

2.
You are right in that my use of the term is narrow. I use it in a pejorative sense at best and as evil at worst. I realise that is not a pure dictionary or even biblical definition. The bible is neutral in it's use of the word, and maybe I have been remiss in not clarifying how I use it.

However, I don't ascribe the term religious to those who do not "fall into my system". I don't belong to any system. I am simply a Bible believing Christian. I have some default positions, some literally taken ones, some researched ones and some revealed ones. All are subject to change if I come across a deeper understanding. No dogma, and no forcing my views on anyone. So for example,  I see this as sharing and not teaching, but we can all come away taught, sharpened and edified.

Religion (still in the pejorative sense) is essentially a system, and there various "systems" within Christianity. Please don't get me wrong. I do not subscribe to, champion or rail against any tradition, I believe there are God's people in them all (but not all in them are God's people). My posts are always on a position by position basis and not a denominational one. So, I agree with certain parts of most traditions, but am bound by none. I see some truth in all and varying degrees of error in all. One thing is that "error" when codified can be/become heresy, if that abounds, then when does error become outright "apostasy"?

Interesting to note, you can trace religion (again in it's pejorative sense) in the Bible right back to Cain and Abel. Simple faith and religion are never compatible. It's why Cain slew Abel. Trace it all the way to the Lords day, and it's why the "Religious system" of the day killed the Lord. And of course it's still with us. I can even see it here on this forum. Religion as dogma, ritual, obligation, temples, priesthoods and all that entails is deadly. It's where the evil one does his best work. That's why he goes to church (as in the religious system) like everyone else! Maybe we'll have opportunity to share on that sometime.

3.
I see the church of God as all those who "repent towards God and put their faith in Jesus Christ". Nothing added or taken away. Wherever they are.

4.
I didn't say or mean that money is evil in God's eyes. Just noted, it wasn't originally of God
It's a human invention and perhaps a needed one given the way we live.

God's "currency" was gold silver, precious metals etc. Inflation proof, a real store of wealth and unchanging value. Our paper money is debt driven. But again, it's a whole other topic and one I'm still on (although not currently, as I don't see it as that important).

Hope it clarifies things somewhat.

Your observations where on my take. Pray, share yours with us.

God bless.

Prosperity gospel is being heavily advocated especially in the mostly black churches. Even the churches that claim that they don't preach it, slyly promote it. There seem to be almost a race to build the biggest church, have the largest turnover, the most concregation, collect the most offering and promise the most salavation, the most blessing, etc, Sometimes i feel i'm at a sales convention, If yu don't give yu are made to feel guilty or that yu could miss yur blessing?? I once went to a church were the concregation was asked t o bring their WHOLE salary tha month and soe it into the church, needless to say that was the last time i went there, I don't about you, but ti think that too much emphasis on money is spoiling it for me.

Okay, let me say this unequivocally.  I plan to be rich, infact, super-rich.  Though Jesus said indeed that "the poor you will always have with you," but I don't plan to be amongst those.  I plan to be amongst those that cater to the need of the poor instead.

From Jesus parable of the talent, I get the notion that I am God's steward and the job of a steward as defined in the parable, is to create surplus.  I plan to create surplus from what I have so that as Paul said, "And God will generously provide all you need. Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with others." -  2 Corinthians 9:8.  

While there is danger of compromise when you are rich, no one can deny also that you stand even greater chance of compromise when you are poor.  If that is the case, I personally prefer the temptations of the rich.  I have been poor ones, and it wasn't fun.  Not that I am super rich now, but I know I don't wake up each day wondering where the next meal is coming from and not knowing where to sleep tonight.  That is a great blessing.

Hi TayoD,

TayoD:

Okay, let me say this unequivocally. I plan to be rich, infact, super-rich. Though Jesus said indeed that "the poor you will always have with you," but I don't plan to be amongst those. I plan to be amongst those that cater to the need of the poor instead.

As you said, "your plan". If that's how your walk with the Lord is developing, who is to say otherwise?

Money is not the only need of the "poor". Plus the term itself is relative.

TayoD:

Not that I am super rich now, but I know I don't wake up each day wondering where the next meal is coming from and not knowing where to sleep tonight. That is a great blessing.

As Christians, I don't think we can ask for anything more.

1 Timothy 6:8 ~ And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content.

God bless

TV01,

Does God say we should live without a plan? In fact, the Bible teaches us to plan a lot in whatever we do, but that we should have God in the plan.

Of course, I am content. Contentment is relative. My real treasure is not in gold, but in the Lord. There are a lot of rich people who are les content than the poor. contentment is a state of mind and lack of it is a plague that affects the rich and the poor.

I have one question for you. Would you rather be rich or poor? To me, poverty is not equal to righteousness, and you can prove otherwise if you feel the Bible says so. By the way, the Bible say, "Whatsoever we desire, whenyou pray, " If your heartfelt conviction is poverty, then it will be hypocritical of you if you don't pray to be poor everyday.

Over to you.

Hi TayoD,

Like I said "your plan" based on "your walk"
All I meant was, it's no one's place to tell you how to plan or walk. That's something everyone should do themselves

Who in their right minds chooses to be poor? I believe this is the "mature Christian" position.
Philippians 4:11 - Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content:

No I don't believe poverty  equates to righteousness, is there any reason (Biblical or otherwise) why I should?

Prayers are not granted just on desire, there is also a question of motivation.

If you are content, why do you desire to be super rich?
1Timothy 6:9 - But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition

Poverty is not my "heartfelt conviction"
I pray and thank God for meeting my needs.

Besides, if one wants poverty, why pray? you can simply give everthing away and quit work   !

Over to you sir

God bless

We deceive ourselves a lot. WE CAN'T ALL BE RICH IN THIS WORLD! Even in the bible days, some were rich while some were poor. Some were masters while some were slaves. We have more of orators than preachers these days. Respect goes to the richest man in church. In some churches some seats have been reserved for the special members. In my church, a very wealthy member comes into the church with armed bodyguards. Nobody dare take their reserved seats. The members had to fight before the bodyguards were stopped from bringing guns into the church. The truth of the matter is that the church services go to the highest bidder. If you are a poor man, junior members of the church hierarchy will attend your child's dedication ceremony while the Senior pastor to the millionaires functions.

We just shouldn't bother our heads about certain things cos THAT'S LIFE!

Rottweiler,

I think you should refer the leaders of the churches you mentioned to the passage below:

James 2 (NLT)

My dear brothers and sisters, how can you claim that you have faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ if you favor some people more than others?
2 For instance, suppose someone comes into your meeting dressed in fancy clothes and expensive jewelry, and another comes in who is poor and dressed in shabby clothes. 3 If you give special attention and a good seat to the rich person, but you say to the poor one, "You can stand over there, or else sit on the floor"-well, 4 doesn't this discrimination show that you are guided by wrong motives?
5 Listen to me, dear brothers and sisters. Hasn't God chosen the poor in this world to be rich in faith? Aren't they the ones who will inherit the Kingdom he promised to those who love him?

They may of course be aware of it and are just choosing to do their own thing ---- rather than what the Bible teaches.

And following on from Enigma's post, a couple of things could be asked?

1. Are they true leaders? (why do I so detest that word leader/s?)
2. Is it true church??

God bless

Hmmm, let's see:

There are leaders in the Church by their various offices and functions. Several words in the Bible all point to leaders/leadership positions in the Church - "rule" (e.g., I Tim. 5:17, KJV) and "authority" (e.g., II Cor. 10:8, KJV). You don't have to detest a word or position just bacause you feel in a certain way about them, even if they have been much abused today in many circles. It's there in the Bible in positive sense, and that should be helpful enough.

You don't define a "true church" by problems in them. The Lord knows who are His, so let's leave this matter alone in His hands. As long as they don't profess faith in anyone or anything else than the Lord Jesus Christ and seek to honour Him by the Word, there's no reason to be hard-pressed about this issue of trying to point out just who and who are the "true churches" and others who are "false/fake churches."

Another example from the Laodicean Church in Rev. 3:14-22 might be helpful. The situation was dire, and these dear folks had fallen into materialism as a gauge for measuring spirituality. Nonetheless, in His rebuke, the Lord did not call them a "fake/false church" because of their spiritual malady - He simply counselled them (vs.18 ), and challenged them to be zealous, and to repent (vs. 19).

A lot of sad stuff are in our various churches. He who has ears, let him/her hear God's gracious call to walk in His word. Where we observe whatever we're not happy with, it would be better to leave matters of divine judgement in His hands alone. Much as we decry the wrong principles and practices in many quarters, let's do so without overstepping our bounds.

With love.

When I came upon is site, I was in the process of searching for other people's positions on materialism in the north American evangelical church. I think the most powerful thing I can probably do is share a little bit of my story.

In Revelations, it says that the way to overcome the devil is by the *blood of the lamb, and the word of our testimony*. This is a piece of mine.

I grew up with a very religious narcissistic Christian mom. My father was killed when I was four months old , and I am an only child. I was raised in a dysfunctional Christian shame based church that put a lot of emphasis on religiosity and Calvinistic obedience. Throughout the course of my young life, I watched the damaging effect of shame, condemnation and isolation that a church without love or compasion can create. By the age of sixteen, I still believed in God, but no longer had any respect for the Christian church.

I believed that somewhere in the world must exist a genuine love, that Christ talk and modelled in the new testament. I became involved in drugs and the grateful dead and spent the next sixteen years of my life being blown and tossed in the wind . In the process of my desperate search, I ended up hopelessly addicted. After I finally broke , I was on my second failed marriage , I had three different children in three differant provinces and a life that could only be put together by a true author of confusion. It was then that I broke and cried out to God . Laying on the living room floor of my home in tearful desperation the Lord answered me. He told me to go to teen challenge. I was blown away, how could he be clearer.

I spent the next year in a very charismatic teen challenge center in mid-west Canada. While I was there I was indoctrinated over and over again by the prosperity gospel. This message never sat right with my spirit. I searched the scriptures endlessly but came to the conclusion. That we are made in the image of God, being conformed into the image of Christ. If God did not spare his son from suffering , how could we be any differant. I saw too much scriptural evidence including Christ's powerful sermon on the mount that pointed in the direction of selflessness and suffering.

None the less, I have always been bright, outgoing and resourceful and when I left the center I was wooed by a Christian business man to come and work for his company. Immediately I felt an uneasiness .The Holy Spirit spoke to me and showed me that this man had willingly partnered with an unbeliever who not only did not share his faith, he did not share his ethics.

None the less, I assumed because of my lack of spiritual maturity. This brother being highly esteemed in the church. Being older, wiser and more mature in his faith with Christ Jesus may in fact be mentor material. I decided that in fact the Holy Spirit may be guiding me. I decided that God probably had led me to this company because this gentleman was in fact so convinced it was God's will for me.

Almost seven months after working at this company. I was spiritually, morally and emotionally bankrupt. I had in the process become indoctrinated with the prosperity gospel message by my boss and fair-weather friend my current employer. I had stopped listening to the word of God, and had replaced it, with the truth according to Paul Sr. my new boss.

Whenever there was something shady, or just plain unethical at my new company it was always justified. Cut corners, no problem, it's God's will because his financial blessing is on the company. Unethical associates , no problem, they where brought there by the Lord. The company was making millions, money is God's blessing. So everything else simply did not matter.

To make a long story short God never gave up on me, he kept leading me to scripture that showed me a differant truth. After months of being of being in extreme emotional turmoil at this company. My health gave out and I became chronically ill. Even though my sales where higher than any other employee at the company. I was given the option of demotion. I could do the exact same job I had always done without any of my commisions. I was treated like a leper, and despite doctors notes and proper documentation. I in fact did not matter. God had taken his blessing off my life and I now was a determent to the company. The relationship with my boss became abusive , and I opted for resignation. Upon resignation I was promised that I would receive the commisions for around 14 projects I had worked on. I had not been paid out my commisions for months, there was always an excuse when it came to me receiving the funds that I had worked for.

It has now been months, and I still have not received a penny or an explanation from my former employee.Multiple e-mails have gone unanswered and my family has become financially devastated.

I have learned a powerful lesson in the process. The world of God is alive and real, and is without question the final authority on life. I am a living example that the prosperity gospel is not the Way, the Truth of A Life Giving reality.

There is no right way to do a wrong thing. When I walk with my family to church I see the wealthy drive past me in there expensive cars it was very difficult for me. Until I realized.

Man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart. Just because man esteems someone because they have acquired wealth and position. It does in fact not make them Sons of God. The word clearly says that if a brother has material possessions and See's his brother in need and has no compassion he is not a brother. I agree.

Please pray for my family and me. As we navigate our way through this faith journey

Your friend and brother in Christ Jesus
David

cozmicgravy@yahoo.ca

David,

Your story touches me very much. It also underscores a very important point. Money is important in this world (anyone who has ever suffered for lack of it can tell you that), it is also important to the church because without it we would not be able to do the work of evangelism commanded by Jesus. Where then do we draw the line? Your story explains it perfectly. Where the pursuit of money requires you to carry out actions that contradict the word of God.

Money makes the world go round so why not the church too?

David,

I am very sorry for all the troubles you have been to in the hands of "brethren" , even as prayers offered on your behalf; always listen to the Holy Spirit that is within you which speaks better things than the blood of Abel. To do otherwise will be suicidial. Even now in I am not very comfortable with some things going on in the body of christ here in Port Harcourt, Nigeria and I tell em - till I feel peace in my inner most being I will be a spectator in their way of doing things.

Is money evil?  
No. Money is not Evil. The idea of money dates back to when man began to trade with one another. Money can be used to do evil things and in todays world, its not too hard to explain.

How much emphasis should be placed on prosperity?  
It is Gods will for us to prosper and be in good health even as our soul prospereth. In the Bible we find a lot of saints of old who were well to do, rich in their own standards. Abraham was rich, Isaac was rich, Jacob was rich, at several times Israel was rich and comfortable. All through the Bible, we find those who were rich and those who were poor. While Abraham still pleased God in his riches, Pharaoh used his own to oppress people. Another example is King Ahab, who with all his riches still coveted the vineyard of Naboth, a poor man. Solomon was rich, at first his heart was right with God, later he backslid.

The Bible exhorts believers not to place their minds on riches, because the world and its riches will one day pass away. Rather it exhorts believers to focus their mind on how they can "be rich towards God", meaning, rich in spiritual things, spiritual gifts, rich in good works, rich in faith, rich in activities that will gather to them great rewards in heaven.

Not that prosperity should not be taught in the church, but all emphasis(like we have in some new-generation churches today) should not be placed on prosperity. The Bible says, "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness, "

Are Christians meant to be poor?  
NO.

Did Jesus and the Disciples led by example in being super poor or super rich?  
Jesus wasnt poor. That he said "the Son of Man doesnt have somewhere to lay his head" didnt mean He was walking the streets. Jesus maintained a balance. Note: the Israel of his days were expecting a Messiah that would come with chariots, horses, etc, who would be the ultimate human being, but contrary to their expectation, the King of Kings came in a manger, lowly and humble, and He truly potrayed the lifestyle of a child of God.

Should properity be taught in our churches in the first place?   YES, because it is part of Gods plan for man.

Does money make you a better or worse christian?  
Both. Money can make one a good Christian, and Money can make one a very bad Christian. It depends on how such a Christian values Money. The right attitude a believer should potray should be that one, me/you are stewards of whatever God has given us, and we should be responsible to use them wisely.

Would you rather be rich or poor?  
I would rather want to have just enough.

How does God make people rich if He wants to?
It doesnt take him a day. Joseph is a prime example of how God can lift one out of grass into Grace. Nebuchadnezzar is an example of going from Grace to grass. The dividing line: man determines it. But the truth is: when your time comes, no man can stop God from working out his plan.

where is TV01? please i need your immediate comment on this

a friend of mine went for midweek service wherein they were told that their pastor's birthday is coming up. the person making announcements proceeded to give the pastor's shoe size, shirt size and suit size and then said it must not be ABA made. That if they can't get good quality ones they can attack the pastor's bank account because the bank is not yet complaining. For the records both the pastor and his wife just bought 2 brand new tear rubber toyota cars costing nothing less than six million naira in the last six months. My friend's spirit does not agree with this arrangement and I have told him not to give a dime to that contribution but he wants a second opinion.

otokx

Tell your friend not to give a dime; tell him also that he should be careful about the "teachings' in that church and any of its kind.

I will tell Him

There is nothing wrong with blessing your Pastor with material goods. Which do you think is more important - material enrichment or physical enrichment? Your Pastor enriches you spiritually every week at least, is it too much that you enrich him physically once a year during his birthday? I do not think so. Check out: Romans 15:27 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things 1 Corinthians 9:11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
Give your gift in obedience unto this scripture as unto the Lord and not unto man. Never mind if the Pastor is looking fatted. Eli was a vary fat man who was obviously well compensated from working in his office as a Priest, but this doesn't mean those who he ministers to should not bless him. He still remained a Priest of God and a means through which God could bless his people. Remember Saul's statement while going to see Eli? He said something like this: "I can not go and see the man of God empty handed". All of these are written for our instructions so we could follow. SELAH.

Your Pastor enriches you spiritually every week at least, is it too much that you enrich him physically once a year during his birthday?

With the statistics of "2 brand new tear rubber toyota cars costing nothing less than six million naira in the last six months", the guy has enuf! I won't give him kobo, because the same Bible urges balance - ". . . I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children." (II Cor. 12:14). It is such kinds of pastors that Jesus will readily ask them to sell all they have and give to the poor, and then they can come and follow Jesus. A true servant of the Lord knows where to draw the line between unbridled materialism and true spirituality.

Okay, T-D, I wasn't gunning at you; but I'm becoming weary of Nigerian pastors losing focus of their calling to start settling on their lees and paying too much attention to material pursuits. That the suit "must not be ABA made" - what's with that? May God help us. Otokx, good advice from Enigma - take it.

I don't think it was the Pastor who made the request.  Someone else did.  No doubt people go too far in interpreting some scriptures, but the principle remains the same:  every man should give as God has prospered him.  You can't buy a Designer suit for your pastor when you can't even afford a tee-shirt. 

I think the issue of wealth management should lie on the shoulders of the Pastor.  Seeing him prosper is not a reason for us to quit blessing him as the scripture commands.  It is up to the Pastor to know what he should give away and what he should keep from amongst the gifts.  God is able to get through to His man in this regard.  His lack of obdience should not lead the rest of us to disobedience.

As you rightly noted mlks_baby, 2 Cor 12:14 addresses the Pastor while Romans 15:17 and 1 Corinthians 9:11 is for the flock.  I don't think we should reason outside the scriptures.

TayoD:

I think the issue of wealth management should lie on the shoulders of the Pastor.

Wisdom there, and I agree. That's why I expected he should very well have observed a balance while the MC was creating such an atmosphere suggesive of unbridled materialism.

TayoD:

His lack of obdience should not lead the rest of us to disobedience.

Another good point. No matter how bad a situation may be, my obedience to God's Word comes first. Giving to a pastor's birthday bash is not obligatory, but that doesn't stop me from giving to him where appropriate.

Well thanks all for the advise, My friends spirit is at rest now and so is mine. I don't know why when it comes to the things of "GOD" we don't make use of our common sense which "GOD" has giving us. Those people that want to and are able to should minister carnality to the pastors. We forget that Paul was a tenth maker and could proudly boast that no man can say he made him rich.

Hi Peeps,

I've been in Nigeria for a little while.
I purposely stayed offline and away from telly and the papers.
I felt blessed to fellowship with a few people, who where starting to lift up their heads
and question some of the practices and outworkings of "Christianity" as currently practised.

Otokx dude,

That kind of practice is to be expected where precepts like "bless the man of God and God will bless you" are callously rammed down peoples throats. Combined with distorted teaching on authority and submission, a lot of what is called "church" these days is nothing short of "cultic" in the nastiest sense of the word.

Personally my position is this - Money moves in the body of Christ in response to need (that is personal physical or material need, not temples, programs or other pointless religious activity).

The last few verses of Matthew 25 speak powerfully to this. Help the needy not the greedy.

Hope this helps.


God bless

TV01


ps.
As for the term/office/function "pastor", no one has yet been able to show me a pastors mandate (as widely practiced in the "church" today) from the bible. I can't find the pastor as head/leader anywhere in scripture. The word itself is a transliteration and appears once in the NKJV. Men make it what they like and they use it as they please! How sad. Pastor is like a first name nowadays. I ask peoples names and they say "pastor" this or that, just appending their surnames. A man-made functional approach to Christianity. Relationship anyone?

TayoD:

I think the issue of wealth management should lie on the shoulders of the Pastor.

mlks_baby:

Wisdom there, and I agree.

TayoD & Mlks_baby,

As noted in my previous post, I take fundamental issue with the whole "pastor" concept. But laying that difference aside, I personally still don't consider that statement about wealth management to be wise.

1. We are all stewards of whatever God entrusts to our care (1 Corinthians 4:1-2, 1 Peter 4:10)
2. We shall all individually give account for said resources Luke 16, Romans 13:12, Hebrews 4:13)

Personally (i.e just me!), I don't think equating pastors to Paul a foundational Apostle or Eli an OT Priest, is correct, or validates that kind of practice. NT Christians share each others burdens and minister to each others needs. By all means honour elders who labour, but I don't think that stretches to intimidatory and coercive appeals in order to shake down the flock. Why do people feel the need to be apologists for what is plainly unscriptural practice?


God bless

TV01

when it comes from becoming rich . i discover that rich peoplein the world didnnot do waht we do to get rich. i think we need to go and learn from rich people how they get rich not giving away our money in decit. dont getme wrong i belive in giving. but am not gona alllow motivation giving and sin blame giving to get to me. i think we really to stop this thing of money and focus on how god will use us reach the dieing people. i still belive if u wann be rich learn from rich people

I have been doing some soul searching about blessing my "pastor" and this is what I have come up with.

We are supposed to take care of the people who do the work of the ministry, especially those who teach and preach the word!

1 Timothy 5:17 "Let the elders (pastors, overseers) that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine. "

So Paul is telling Timothy to see to it that the people who help him pastor and oversee the ministry of the church as paid and paid well "double honor" if they are laboring in the word and doctrine.

My pastor loves us and truly seeks God in the word and seeking sound doctrine to deliver us the right message for the right time, and he is worthy of this double honor!!

You guys keep quoting one scripture, but you need to look at the context of your arguments, this scripture v.17 seems to mean honor you give a man, but if you keep reading in (v. 18) "For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The laborer is worthy of his reward!"

So Paul is saying that we are to actually pay our pastors and the ones who deserve to be blessed in double portion, are to be blessed!!! To what degree is a good question and I'm from America so 6 million whatever is beyond me to comment on its reagents, but I can say this. Blessing comes in measures and portions, and maybe the pastor of that flock has been sowing for years into something and has been driving a bucket, and now is the time of blessing for him and his family!!! To say that he is not worthy of anything else and don't give him a dime, is a very narrow comment and shows no maturity on your part! However, if the motivation is for showing off, and if the pastor is not a good steward of his things, if the family is not seeking after God and they are only seeking after acceptance in material things, then we have a problem!

The bible says the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Again our motivation for the money determines is ability to build or destruct. Loving the money and the things it buys will bring about evil and bad things in your life, but if you love God and see money as the thing that makes helping people possible, and you give with that attitude, then money is not evil by itself!!

I agree with a lot that has been said from different people here, and I think most are saying similar things.

It is about the motivation in all cases. God is searching for seekers of his heart, and those He will bless, because God knows if he can get it through you! He will get it to you!!

So if you are blessed and intent to bless others, then money and blessing will come.

Is everyone destined to be a millionaire? NOPE! God know who he can trust with money and who he can't, and sometimes we are given more than normal just to prove it.

If he gives you 10,000 and you use it all on you, then maybe your not the guy who is going to be blessed a millionaire by The Lord!

This is a deep subject, and unfortunately many people do abuse the concept of blessing and being prosperous. I believe Jesus was never in need, lack, he was never without, and I believe always had an abundance! When he blessed things he ended up with more than he started with! That is pretty good in my book, and leads me to believe he was not hurting in the monetary sense! Find me a scripture that suggests otherwise?

As for not operating like the true church did by having pastors, that is a huge streth, Eph 4 11-15. We are given pastor, teachers, etc, "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ"

I hope we can all agree that God is interested in our hearts first, then he can make us knowledgable about the use of money for His glory, and not just for our satisfaction! But there absolutely nothing wrong with blessing your pasotr for an anniversary, birthday, or for any occassion for that matter!

Thanks for listening,

Peace,

TS

Personally, I believe that the greatest problem with the church in Nigeria is money. The church is running after money and has forsaken the calling of God. Money is now the master, rather than the servant. In the early church, money wasn't exactly a factor. Those who had brought what they had and shared with the needy. The apostles faced their evangelistic callings and appointed people over the sharing of things. Today, it is not so. I feel very passionate about this issue because I belong to a church where money is being abused. It wasn't like this years ago. Nowadays, the church only wants members to give and doesnt think of the welfare of members. They tell members to trust in God for their own, but they want members to contribute to the church fund. The tithes that should be used to take care of widows and orphans (and pastors) are used to build large, enviable structures. It's like the churches, even within denominations, are competing with themselves. Church buildings have become a status symbol. Churches spend over 20 million naira building, when members can't eat. How can they spend so much beautifying a building, and neglect the actual Temple of God - the individuals. Gradually, we're having more and more hungry and needy ppl coming to worship in magnificent buildings. All the pastors have to say is give, trust God. They're almost making God look like a liar.

From the bible, we see that money is meant to take care of the needy. Money is supposed to meet the needs of the full time workers - including pastors -, widows, orphans, foreigners.

It's so unfortunate that they're not doing this.