The Proper Role Of Money In The Church - Religion (2) - Nairaland
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| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by otokx(m): 12:50pm On Jun 06, 2006 |
Giving to the Pastors, Priest should be done freely under the unction of the Holy Spirt to meet a specific need and not at the request of someone. This days there is a lot of contribution and exchange of money in the house of God. Mr A lost his father so we are contributing. Miss B just put to bed, again we are contributing. Its the Papa's birthday (thats what some call their pastor) and we are contributing. Recently the pastors had to put a limit on the money we could contribute per head because it was getting out of hand. I can see them very soon putting a limit on the circumstance too. We should be sensitive to the economic situation on ground, some of the members can barely afford the transport money to and from church, not to talk of offering then u now add all manner of spurrious contributions. I wonder if the people JESUS chased out of the temple were not engaging in such activities. |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by GL(f): 1:18am On Jun 07, 2006 |
Some ppl say Jesus was rich while on earth, I don't think so. Which passage in the bible supports that position? I think the problem is that the way they talk about money in the church gives the impression that being wealthy is a sign of God's approval. This means that all rich people have God's approval, while the poor ones don't. This is a very bad teaching, as even the apostles knew poverty. This teaching is leading church members to look for money from anywhere at all costs. This is anti-christian. We are supposed to seek the Kingdom of God and wait for the money and other things to come. Money seems to be the most important issue in church now. |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by GL(f): 1:22am On Jun 07, 2006 |
imagine that they want church members who might not even know what their next meal would be to contribute to buy birthday presents for a pastor who has 2 Toyota cars |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by otokx(m): 3:26pm On Jun 07, 2006 |
there is an eroneous doctrine which some lazy christians have taking to, they are taught that giving to the church, pastors is the best form of investment  . They don't understand that the gospel is about things of eternal value. So they give and start counting when the next surprise blessing which they call return on investment will land and if does not come in good time they become hardened criminals moving about with a veagance. |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by otokx(m): 3:31pm On Jun 07, 2006 |
there is an erroneous doctrine which some lazy Christians have taking to, they are taught that giving to the church, pastors is the best form of investment . They don't understand that the gospel is about things of eternal value. So they give and start counting when the next surprise blessing which they call return on investment will land and if does not come in good time they become hardened criminals moving about with a vengeance. |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by TV01(m): 5:41pm On Jun 07, 2006 |
Hi Otokx, otokx: Well said. And so true. 1. First they reinvented the meaning and essence of the term "Pastor". 2. Then they re-engineered his mandate, and 3. reinforced this error by missaplying OT precepts like "Touch not my annointed", they 4. then bolstered this with "bless the man of God and God will bless you" teaching, and 5. nailed it with warped interpretations of authority and submission. otokx: No, because they are too busy plugging/being suckered by the "give to get" teaching (and always in the here and now). Having re-introduced redundant OT precepts, they couldn't help but bring the promises along with them. All material. All temporal. One of the big differences in the NT is "Eternal Life in Christ Jesus" No one want to so much as contemplate the sacrifice, suffering, privation, rejection and abasement that one may well have to go through to truly witnes for Him and lay hold of that. It's religion for the greedy, venal and downright rapacious. The cross has no meaning for such. It's church Lord, but not as we know it!  .God bless |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by Gwaine(m): 9:09pm On Jun 07, 2006 |
TV01, TV01: So, how has the OT precepts become redundant? TV01: Are you quarrelling with some people or what?  "No one"? Your statements are so broad yet sadly narrow in the sense that there are lots of Christians actually sacrificing, suffering, enduring privation, rejection and abasement in witnessing for the Lord Jesus. |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by mrmayor(m): 10:04pm On Jun 07, 2006 |
Gwaine: Gwaine, The laws of the old testemant in indeed REDUNDANT,Jesus gave two simple commandments and thats why christainity is simple The Greatest Commandment Matthew 22:36-40 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love he Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by GL(f): 3:17am On Jun 08, 2006 |
I read a book that warned christians to be careful of pastors who style themselves after O.T. prophets. Many nigerian pastors do it and that's wrong. O.T. prophets had ALL the authority because only they heard from God and the ppl had to obey them. In the N.T. God, thru Jesus, came down to our level and christians don't need to go thru any man to get to God. N.T. churches are more like fellowships, the leader isn't far above the rest like it was in the O.T. I love to point out how Paul (a relative new-comer, who even persecuted christians in the past) openly criticized Peter (the Leader chosen by Jesus Himself) before gentiles. Obviously, Peter accepted the criticism and wasnt offended. Many pastors would rather be like the O.T. prophets, who no one dared challenge. |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by Gwaine(m): 7:05am On Jun 08, 2006 |
Thank you, mrmayor; but I was waiting for TV01's answers. I don't think "precepts" are the same with the "Law" - and even if they were/are to you, why quote Matt. 22.36-40 as if that was not part of the Mosaic Law that Jesus re-iterated (Duet. 6:5 and Lev. 19:18)? Besides, I think that the Lord Jesus gave more than just the two commandments you referenced in Matt.22:36-40. I agree with you, though, that Christianity is quite simple - as long as we live it in the power of the Holy Spirit. No, i wasn't referring to the "laws of the old testament" but rather to the very same words in TV01's post - "the OT precepts". And I don't believe they're REDUNDANT! |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by mrmayor(m): 9:41am On Jun 08, 2006 |
Gwaine: |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by TV01(m): 9:58am On Jun 08, 2006 |
Hi Gwaine, Thanks for your rejoinder. In response to your post. Gwaine: As concisely stated by mrmayor, the whole of the OT is summed up in the Royal law of Christ. Love, for God and one another. Am I saying that the OT is irrelevant in it's entirety? No, I am not. But clearly somethings do not apply. Not to mention that some things are being blatantly missapplied to the detriment of the faith and the brethren in this dispensation. Point in question ~ "Touch not my anointed" In the OT only Kings, Prophets & Priests were anointed. Now all who put their faith in Christ are. In the NT the word is used twice, once to assure us that we all have the anointing and once in relation to the sick. Not to mention that the three OT roles mentioned are in a sense inherent in all believers in this dispensation. The use of TNMA to silence legitimate questions or testing amongst brethren is not biblical. As is it's use to elevate certain people beyond accountability, regardless of their actions or utterances. Gwaine: Nothing personal sir, but having experienced liberty in Christ, the thought of becoming a "slave to men" is anathema to me. I also realise it's my duty to contend earnestly for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints (i.e. me!). Am I always right? No. Do I get it wrong? Often. I am more than happy to be corrected when in error and assured when in doubt. I am subject to rebuke, chastening and scourging like everyone else. Gwaine: Apologies for the broadness of my statement. "No one" was a bit sweeping, and not meant to be taken strictly as read. Apologies also to those who are truly witnessing for Christ. I trust they will not take offence, knowing it was not directed at them. God bless ps, What do you reckon? will 2 turtledoves adequately atone for my misuse of words? or maybe I could get away with a simple grain offering? |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by Gwaine(m): 11:12am On Jun 08, 2006 |
@mrmayor, mrmayor: I wasn't asking about which to choose or not choose; my question was simply - "how has the OT precepts become redundant?" That you probably fancy God sending a message to the Israeli PM for genocide could be understood in light of your personal persuasions, but that's neither me nor what I was asking about. mrmayor: Okay, I see your point. In which case, according to you, Deut. 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 which are in the OT are either applicable today, or they are not - yes? |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by Gwaine(m): 11:37am On Jun 08, 2006 |
Hi TV01, TV01: Well, you seem to have lost me in stating two opposites: on the one hand, "the whole of the OT is summed up in the Royal law of Christ"; but on the other hand, "clearly somethings do not apply." So, while the whole is 'summed up', 'somethings' in the whole do not apply? I don't think it was necessary at this time to tell who is misapplying what - whether blatantly or otherwise (there's lots of room for that discussion in other threads). I don't want to lose track of the issue - that in your view, the OT precepts are redundant. My question is: How is that so? Loving God is part of the OT precepts; and loving my neighbour is part of it as well. God's precepts are also found in the Psalms and Proverbs - are they redundant as well? That's why I thought earlier on that there was a difference between the 'precepts' and the 'Law' (in the sense of the latter being generally understood as the Mosaic Law), and we might do well to note the distinction. Last two points you added: ernestly contending for the faith, and the broadness of your statements. I understand where you're coming from, and there's no problem with them. Only need to add that while contending for the faith, I should take care that it's done in the spirit of humility and love. Alas, I'm not perfect in that, and that's why I usually ask questions first before assuming anything. As for the subscript to turtle doves and a grain offering, whenever I could possibly choose to become a Jewish priest and Rabbi, come to my synagogue and we'll deal with your matter in the presence of the LORD (disclaimer: you certainly should hold me indemnified from the possibility that you may not "get away with" your ideas). |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by TV01(m): 12:47pm On Jun 08, 2006 |
Hi Gwaine, Let me try and clarify my position. The essence of the OT was Love of God and your neighbour. I don't see that as having changed in the NT. But we have moved from a works based/appeasement/ritual/lawkeeping way of doing so. Circumcision is always a good metaphor. It was of "the flesh" now it's of "the heart". So does the precept on physical circumcision still apply? No (that's my position anyway). And does that in any way detract from Love of God or man? Again no. As a general rule I find that anything from the OT that is relevant in the NT is usually mentioned in the NT. I hope I've made myself clearer. God bless ps, If you do choose the "Jewish Priest" option, presumably you get to keep some of the offering? However, I won't be seeing you at the synagogue. It'll have to be a proper temple or at least a transportable Tabernacle. |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by Gwaine(m): 2:24pm On Jun 08, 2006 |
TV01, TV01: That was all I was after - to clarify from you how the OT precepts had become redundant. And after all, we've come back to ground zero to note that the "precepts" have not been redundant - as you proffered with the examples of circumcision and Love of God. They may have different forms of application in both covenants, but the precept as such holds true. TV01: That sums it up then, and I agree - in hope that mrmayor shares that with us (but, of course, he's entitled to a second opinion). Your subscript: man, there's no need to amuse yourself on the issue - whether a transportable temple/synagogue, I didn't suggest at all that I'd be considering being a Jewish priest soon ("could possibly choose to become" was just facetiously saying that it's remotely unlikely one of my interests). |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by TV01(m): 2:48pm On Jun 08, 2006 |
Hi Gwaine, Gwaine: Do I understand your point as being; The law has not been made redundant, rather it has changed (Hebrews 7:12)? So for example, Atonement still has to be made for sin, but I don't have to kill anything (Due to the once for all time sacrifice of the Lord) ? And things are more spiritual (i.e. circumcision) than physical? If so, point taken. And I'm more than happy to concede that you are right. In the context of the discussion, I was making the point about mis- (interpretation, application, use) of the OT precepts in the NT dispensation. So is atonement redundant? No. But sacrifice of livestock certainly is. Is anointing done away with ? No, but is it solely for one or a few? No! I hope I've made myself clear. As for the references to Judaic practice, I was being equally facetious. God bless |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by Gwaine(m): 3:38pm On Jun 08, 2006 |
TV01, Let me take you back to what I posted earlier: Gwaine: So, in response to your latest concern, TV01: "The Law" is not the very same thing as "precepts" - the latter is contained in the former. The Law has been both "set aside" ['redundant', if you will, but not me] and 'changed' - Hebrews 7:12; see also 8:13, and 10:9. The 'precepts' (the essence of the Law) are not redundant, and that's why you find the 'old' explained in the 'new' (see Rom. 15:4). So, hope this clarifies what you probably are concerned about in my replies. Enjoy. |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by DRPYGRU: 2:20pm On Nov 06, 2013 |
bump |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by Candour(m): 2:49pm On Nov 06, 2013 |
Very interesting and educative thread indeed. only Enigma still comes around these days out of the people who featured here. It is well |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by Nobody: 3:04pm On Nov 06, 2013 |
Rottweiler: We deceive ourselves a lot. WE CAN'T ALL BE RICH IN THIS WORLD! Even in the bible days, some were rich while some were poor. Some were masters while some were slaves. We have more of orators than preachers these days. Respect goes to the richest man in church. In some churches some seats have been reserved for the special members. In my church, a very wealthy member comes into the church with armed bodyguards. Nobody dare take their reserved seats. The members had to fight before the bodyguards were stopped from bringing guns into the church. The truth of the matter is that the church services go to the highest bidder. If you are a poor man, junior members of the church hierarchy will attend your child's dedication ceremony while the Senior pastor to the millionaires functions.bro, its ur decision to be rich that brings it. For the stereotyping church, i think ur church have a problem. |
| Re: The Proper Role Of Money In The Church by Alwaystrue(f): 8:34pm On Nov 06, 2013 |
TayoD: Is money evil?I Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows TayoD: How much emphasis should be placed on prosperity?As much emphasis as seen in the Word of God. TayoD: Are Christians meant to be poor?I Timothy 6:17 Teach those who are rich in this world not to be proud and not to trust in their money, which is so unreliable. Their trust should be in God, who richly gives us all we need for our enjoyment It will be strange if we have abundant life in Christ and serve a rich God yet still think Christians are meant to be poor. However, riches in God's eyes is totally different from that of man...2 Cor. 8:2; Rev. 3:17-18; Luke 12:20-21 TayoD: Did Jesus and the Disciples led by example in being super poor or super rich?Philipians 4:11-13 11 Not that I was ever in need, for I have learned how to be content with whatever I have. 12 I know how to live on almost nothing or with everything. I have learned the secret of living in every situation, whether it is with a full stomach or empty, with plenty or little. 13 For I can do everything through Christ,[a] who gives me strength They led by example of being content irrespective of situations. TayoD: Should properity be taught in our churches in the first place?THe whole gospel of the Kingdom is to be taught which includes prosperity. TayoD: Does money make you a better or worse christian?Depends on your heart. God gives and supplies all our need. Can you handle worldly riches? Or will you become so high minded and scornful once you get a tease of earthly wealth? Luke 16:10-11 10 If you are faithful in little things, you will be faithful in large ones. But if you are dishonest in little things, you won’t be honest with greater responsibilities. 11 And if you are untrustworthy about worldly wealth, who will trust you with the true riches of heaven? TayoD: Would you rather be rich or poor?I am rich. TayoD: How does God make people rich if He wants to? Colossians 3:23-24 23 Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people. 24 Remember that the Lord will give you an inheritance as your reward, and that the Master you are serving is Christ John 15:7 If ye. abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Matthew 6:33 Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need. Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. There are lots more scriptures showing true riches both in the old and the new testaments. 1 Like |
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