Bravo Johnnylap! Boomark, God authorized you, me and everyone else to honor Him and His friends, the angels and saints in Heaven (of whom Mary is the perfect saint, Mother of God and Queen of Heaven) when He told the Israelites to put statues of angels on the Ark of the Covenant. The authority is there in the Bible, and Bible-believing Protestants should do what they claim to do - follow the Bible. It was the belief of early Christians that images of Jesus and the saints could be painted on the catacombs. Why don't Protestants agree with the beliefs of the early Christians and Fathers of the Church?

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Biblical pictures in their Sunday school books. If we Catholics followed the logic of Protestants, then Protestants are idolaters! If they have photographs of their loved ones in their homes, they are idolaters! But as long as Protestants don't worship the images, they are not idolaters!

Catholics have statues in their homes and Churches because men are weak, and they are often distracted during prayer. Anti-Catholics charge that we worship the statues, but this is what only the uninformed say. Like Protestants who have images in their Sunday school books, we use the images in our churches as teaching tools. Like Protestants who display photographs of their loved ones in their homes, we are fondly reminded of our Heavenly Father and Mother when we look at their images. It is a reminder to pray, too.

In the Bible it is recorded that as Jesus was dying on the cross, He said to St. John standing at the foot of the cross with Mary, His Mother, "Behold thy Mother." He told Mary, "Behold thy son." How many Protestants honor Mary, their Mother? How many Protestants follow Jesus' command, "Behold thy Mother"?

Eileen111111: Bravo Johnnylap! Boomark, God authorized you, me and everyone else to honor Him and His friends, the angels and saints in Heaven (of whom Mary is the perfect saint, Mother of God and Queen of Heaven) when He told the Israelites to put statues of angels on the Ark of the Covenant. The authority is there in the Bible, and Bible-believing Protestants should do what they claim to do - follow the Bible. It was the belief of early Christians that images of Jesus and the saints could be painted on the catacombs. Why don't Protestants agree with the beliefs of the early Christians and Fathers of the Church?

Obvious lies!

Quote from your bible where:
1 God commanded us to make image of MARY

2 Mary was made mother of God and Queen of heaven. the queen of heaven we knew is an idol. Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-25. God is against making image of anything in heaven.

Who painted the image of Jesus? don't you know there were wrong practices even during the time of the apostles or do you just believe any thing you see without knowing where it came from?

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

All these things were made under God's supervision and to specification, Ex 25:9. it is not a random images made by the imagination of man like what we have today in catholic churches

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
He removed the high places, and broke the images, and cut down the idol poles, and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made: for until those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

this is synonymous to offering incense to the cross, pure idol worship. the brazen serpent and the cross have served their purposes.

Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Biblical pictures in their Sunday school books. If we Catholics followed the logic of Protestants, then Protestants are idolaters! If they have photographs of their loved ones in their homes, they are idolaters! But as long as Protestants don't worship the images, they are not idolaters!

Catholics have statues in their homes and Churches because men are weak, and they are often distracted during prayer. Anti-Catholics charge that we worship the statues, but this is what only the uninformed say. Like Protestants who have images in their Sunday school books, we use the images in our churches as teaching tools. Like Protestants who display photographs of their loved ones in their homes, we are fondly reminded of our Heavenly Father and Mother when we look at their images. It is a reminder to pray, too.

In the Bible it is recorded that as Jesus was dying on the cross, He said to St. John standing at the foot of the cross with Mary, His Mother, "Behold thy Mother." He told Mary, "Behold thy son." How many Protestants honor Mary, their Mother? How many Protestants follow Jesus' command, "Behold thy Mother"?

You write too many things. make it short and straight to the point cos we know most of them already. these people were standing and beholding human beings not carved images.

Jeremiah 7:18 refers to: Queen of heaven: the Assyro-Babylonian Ishtar, goddess of fertility, whose worship was introduced under King Manasseh and was revived after Josiah's death. Cakes shaped like stars (Ishtar was identified with the planet Venus) were offered in her honor.

But Protestants interpret the Bible individually, so what you think it means and what the next Protestant thinks it means are two completely different things. Catholics, on the other hand, submit themselves to the authority of the Magisterium.

You said, "Quote from your Bible where God commanded us to make image of MARY." Why do you believe God had to specifically command us to make an image of Her? He authorized us to make statues in multiple places in the Bible. Why don't Bible-believing Protestants believe the Bible? The Bible isn't the sole authority. Apostolic teaching AND the Bible are.

You said, "Quote from your Bible where Mary was made Mother of God and Queen of Heaven." Denial that Mary was the Mother of God has to do with the denial that Jesus is God. It is called the Arian heresy to deny Christ's divinity. The Catholic book, the Bible (some of whose chapters have been removed by Protestants) isn't the sole authority that Catholics rely on. Apostolic teaching is the other authority.

Let me ask you this question. Is all of what there is to know about God contained in the Bible? Does it contain all of the mysteries of God? Of course not! When you read a book, you make inferences. If Mary bore Jesus in her womb for 9 months and if Jesus is God, then logically, she is the Mother of God. The title, Queen of Heaven, was bestowed on Our Lady at the Council of Ephesus in 431. In the Old Testament monarchy the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom was the Queen Mother. The Kings, for reasons of state and human weakness, had many wives, none of whom fittingly could be called Queen. That honor was reserved for the mother of the King, whose authority far surpassed the many "queens" married to the king. We see this is the role Bathsheba played with respect to King Solomon and the occasions when the Queen Mother acted as regent on behalf of juvenile successors to the throne.

The role of the Queen Mother, therefore, is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Mary, just as the role of the Davidic King is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Jesus. Jesus inherited the Kingdom promised to David, who was told that one of his descendants would rule forever. The angel Gabriel revealed this fact to Mary at her Annunciation,

Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:31-33)

Aside from the prophetic types present in the Kingdom of Judah, there is also the text of Psalm 45, which when speaking of the Kingdom of God also speaks of its Queen.

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir. Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. (Psalm 45:6-11, KJV)

You wrote, "All these things were made under God's supervision and to specification, Ex 25:9. it is not a random images made by the imagination of man like what we have today in catholic churches." As a Bible-believing Protestant, tell me where in the Bible it says God specifically prohibited the construction of other statues. He prohibits the worship of idols. In fact, when the Israelites started worshiping the image of the serpent, it was destroyed. But Catholics repeatedly tell anti-Catholics that they do not worship statues. Therefore, statues are not the same as idols. God made that distinction in Exodus 20 and 25. Statues, like photographs of family members, are reminders to us of God and His friends, those we Catholics love, whose lives we wish to emulate.

"This is synonymous to offering incense to the cross, pure idol worship. the brazen serpent and the cross have served their purposes."

I find that a remarkable statement for a Christian to make. It's an appalling attitude toward the cross on which Jesus died. Shame on you.

gree-die:

no we don't. honour her, yes but not worship her
and she deserves to be honored. its no small feat to be chosen by God to be the vessel to bring the saviour to the world.

I've had enough!

God did not instruct us to honour, worship or bow down to any statue of Mary,
It is cleary written in the ten commandments that we should not MAKE, or BOW down to any image.
Mary was Christ's earthly mother, not the Mother of God! Gosh! BLASPHEMY!
I am the way, the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through ME! Not through Mary or any Saint!

Catholics know the truth but they will never accept it! God have mercy on this world!

Eileen111111: Imagine going to a man's house for dinner and completely ignoring his mother. Don't you think he would be highly offended? Do you think that man would invite you to return to his home for dinner?

That's what people do when they completely ignore Christ's mother. St. Louis De Montfort wrote in his book, True Devotion to Mary, that only a reprobate (or someone uninformed) would encourage a child to ignore his or her mother. Consider for a minute how unnatural that is.

Jesus said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3) Little children love their mother. It is a sin to ignore her. It is a sin to persuade others to ignore her. St. Louis de Montfort taught that Jesus CHOSE to come to us through His Mother. He didn't have to do it that way. He wanted it that way. Similarly, the saint said, we need to go to Jesus through His Mother. A mother living on earth doesn't ignore her children. She protects them from all danger, and she intercedes on their behalf. Our heavenly Mother loves us, too.

Jesus invites all people to attend his heavenly Wedding Banquet, the Catholic Mass, but many refuse his invitation because they are too busy or don't care about the Banquet, so he invites the poor and the sick and the disabled instead. He invites us to love His mother as He does. Those who refuse to love her are not imitating Jesus.

From ur comment, then u guys are commiting a gr8 sin of honouring just the mother. How about putting up statues and images of Joseph, his earthly father and start bowing down to it too. After all he also helped during the childhood days of my Savior!

Did Peter ur acclaimed first pope, BOW to Mary or Pray with a rosary or burn insence? Go and read the history of the pagans of old! And compare with your Roman Catholic Religion!

Boomark:

Wanting to honour her has led you into idol worship unknowingly.

Ask yourself. Did Jesus dishonour Mary in anyway. How about the apostles? Who among them did not honour her?

Then how many of them including Jesus made her image and bow before it just to honour? How many of the apostles sat at her feet to honour her and make prayer request?

Mary is for all of us. What catholics own is an unknown image attributed to her which they use as prayer aid. A very wrong practice.

oga book u were so anxious to respond this because it has points u tink u can refute, but someone u unconciously jumped my post.

Eileen111111: "This is synonymous to offering incense to the cross, pure idol worship. the brazen serpent and the cross have served their purposes."

I find that a remarkable statement for a Christian to make. It's an appalling attitude toward the cross on which Jesus died. Shame on you.

If your answers to these questions are YES, shame on me, if NO, shame on you.

1 Are you using the actual/real Cross Christ died on?

2 Was Christ the only person that died on a Cross?

Say the truth and shame the devil not you.

Ubenedictus: hehehehe, i'll let this slide.

i thought u took time to study d passage i so painstaking posted earlier, clearly u didnt. What did d passage say? It say those of the new covenant have access to or rather are on d spiritual mont zion, a heavenly gathering!
I want u to understand one thing, i DONOT ask for mary's intercession INSTEAD OF going directly to God through christ, instead my been a xtian opens a new horizon for me, through christ who mediates d new covenant i now have access to God and all in "GOD's family". I donot ask for intecession instead of.... No! I go to God thru christ in d fellowship of d saints. The fellowship with d saints isn't a detour road no! My bible says it is d main road, i'm not at mont horeb seeing alone a mediator (moses) and some smoke and light (figures used by God), instead i'm on zion with God d fada, the mediator (JESUS), and d saints in heaven(paul, john, peter mary etc) and d saints on earth (me, etc). Infact im in christ and Thru christ i have access to d fellowship of d saints. I'm not bypassing christ, instead i'm keying into christ just as dat bible passage bear witness. I just dont understand how manage u dont understand dat truth. U are just missing a dynamic part of d covenant.

i'll keep this list for now, when we conclude d above discussion i'll bring dis list out and respond to it.
this one isn't red paint, it as been occuring round d world shedding tears, milk or blood. The blood d statue wept was tested by d diocese of onitcha, it is real blood, i can't remember d blood group but d genotype is AA.

Hebrews 12:22-24

New International Version (NIV)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Where is it written that the saints are in heaven? this the gathering of Christians(saints) whose names are written in heaven to God just like the Israelites gather to God at the mountain, v18-21, Ex 19:11-13. the gathering is no longer as fearsome as it use to be under the LAW, heb 12:21. this is just trying to show that we are now in the era of GRACE.

Boomark:
Hebrews 12:22-24
New International Version (NIV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, [b]to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.[/b]

Where is it written that the saints are in heaven? this the gathering of Christians(saints) whose names are written in heaven to God just like the Israelites gather to God at the mountain, v18-21, Ex 19:11-13. the gathering is no longer as fearsome as it use to be under the LAW, heb 12:21. this is just trying to show that we are now in the era of GRACE.

you didn't read the bolded, it says "to the spirit of the righteous made perfect". Now please answer d post.

If,as Protestants say, Catholics are committing the sin of idolatry by putting statues and other images in their churches, then Protestants also commit the same "sin" by using all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or fish emblem. Why is it ok for you to use images, but we Catholics may not? Be consistent and practice what you preach.

The Catholic Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.

It is a falsehood to argue that early Christian saints did not venerate images. There were many saints, many of them monks, who were martyred or tortured for defending the Catholic faith in the 8th and 9th centuries, such as Sts. Theodore and Stephen.

Look at the images of the catacombs here that show early Christian art. Were the early Christians idolaters?

See images of Christ, the Last Supper, David in the lion's den, etc. Why, I even see images of Mary!!! Look here:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=images+of+early+christian+art+in+catacombs&hl=en&client=firefox-beta&hs=gpf&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=OJU3Ue29M6Gp2gXN2IHoAg&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1228&bih=660>

See images of the cross, St. Dionysas, a shepherd carrying 2 lambs, etc.: <https://www.google.com/search?q=images+in+catacombs&hl=en&client=firefox-beta&hs=oD0&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=D5E3UZTlEsOo2wWA7YFo&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1228&bih=660>.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says on its page entitled, "Veneration of Images":

"That Christians from the very beginning adorned their catacombs with paintings of Christ, of the saints, of scenes from the Bible and allegorical groups is too obvious and too well known for it to be necessary to insist upon the fact. The catacombs are the cradle of all Christian art. Since their discovery in the sixteenth century — on 31 May, 1578, an accident revealed part of the catacomb in the Via Salaria — and the investigation of their contents that has gone on steadily ever since, we are able to reconstruct an exact idea of the paintings that adorned them. That the first Christians had any sort of prejudice against images, pictures, or statues is a myth (defended amongst others by Erasmus) that has been abundantly dispelled by all students of Christian archaeology. The idea that they must have feared the danger of idolatry among their new converts is disproved in the simplest way by the pictures even statues, that remain from the first centuries. There are especially pictures of Christ as the Good Shepherd, as lawgiver, as a child in His mother's arms, of His head alone in a circle, of our Lady alone, of St. Peter and St. Paul — pictures that are not scenes of historic events, but, like the statues in our modern churches, just memorials of Christ and His saints.

"St. Ambrose (d. 397) describes in a letter how St. Paul appeared to him one night, and he recognized him by the likeness to his pictures (Ep. ii, in P.L., XVII, 821). St. Augustine (d. 430) refers several times to pictures of our Lord and the saints in churches (e.g. "De cons. Evang.", x in P.L., XXXIV, 1049; St. Jerome (d. 420) also writes of pictures of the Apostles as well-known ornaments of churches (In Ionam, iv). St. Paulinus of Nola (d. 431) paid for mosaics representing Biblical scenes and saints in the churches of his city, and then wrote a poem describing them (P.L., LXI, 884). Gregory of Tours (d. 594) says that a Frankish lady, who built a church of St. Stephen, showed the artists who painted its walls how they should represent the saints out of a book (Hist. Franc., II, 17, P.L., LXXI, 215). In the East St. Basil (d. 379), preaching about St. Barlaam, calls upon painters to do the saint more honour by making pictures of him than he himself can do by words ("Or. in S. Barlaam", in P.G., XXXI). St. Nilus in the fifth century blames a friend for wishing to decorate a church with profane ornaments, and exhorts him to replace these by scenes from Scripture (Epist. IV, 56)....St. Gregory the Great (d. 604) was always a great defender of holy pictures."

Do you see now how far Protestants have departed from what the early Church believed? The Catholic Church still retains the beliefs of the early Church.

When Protestants compare Mary to a pagan goddess, it insults God. The angel Gabriel revealed who Mary is when he said to her, “'Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.' But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.'" (Luke 1:28-30)

An ANGEL was the first to say these words to Mary. Are human beings better than angels that they can't honor her in the same way that St. Gabriel honored her?

The Bible further states that: "When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, 'Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.'” (Luke 1:41-45)

A non-existent, pagan goddess does not fit this description of Mary, so stop offending God and His Mother by drawing that comparison!

^Emotion ladened post. Things of God are not based on emotions. There are women today that feel more for Christ than what you described.

The pictures you posted of Christ don't look alike. The apostles in your last supper picture looks like children. I wonder if you can't identify similar images.

Let me tell you things that are insuits to God.
1 Man chosing who becomes the queen of heaven nd of Gods kingdom.
2 Man making Mary a goddess.
3 Man making images of unknown people and tagging it Jesus or Mary.

Beware! Satan and his demons might have taken opportunity of the random image making by man to get themselves represented for worship. In other word, satan's image might be one of those you bow to.

@ubenedictus.
I will reply you soon. I have them already.

Boomark: You wrote:

"Let me tell you things that are insults to God.
1. "Man chosing who becomes the queen of heaven nd of Gods kingdom."

My response: There is Biblical support for calling Mary Queen of Heaven.

Mary as the Queen of Heaven is tied in with the Old Testament concept of the royal household. Because the King had many wives it was impossible for one to be Queen. Therefore the King’s mother served in the role. The Queen Mother sat on a throne at the King’s right hand and helped rule the kingdom. Access to the King would often be through the Queen Mother and she would ask favors from the King for those who asked her. You can see an example of this in I Kings 2: 17-25 where Solomon is on the throne next to his mother Bathsheba.

David prefigures God the Father; Solomon prefigures Jesus; and Bathsheba prefigures Mary.

Read Luke Ch. 1 where it says, "You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end."

Luke is saying here that God would give Jesus the throne of his father, David. What is David's throne that Jesus will inherit? Throughout Jesus' ministry, he repeatedly spoke of His kingdom - the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus is the King whose kingdom never ends. Who is Mary? His Mother. Let's use logic here. If he is the King of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of David, the Kingdom of Heaven, then who is the Queen? Mary is the Queen Mother of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of David, the Kingdom of Heaven. If Jesus is to reign as King forever, then Mary will reign as Queen Mother forever.

Revelation 11:19 and Revelation 12 provide support for Mary's Queenship. As you read Revelation 11:19, keep in mind that in the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant carried the Word of God. In the New Testament, Jesus is the Word of God. Who is the Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament? Mary, who carried Jesus in her womb for 9 months is the new Ark of the Covenant. It is one of her titles in the Catholic Church. Revelation 11:19 says:

"Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm."

Revelation 12 follows. It speaks of the "woman clothed with the sun" and "crowned with 12 stars." This passage represents both Mary and the Church:

"A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman* clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.a 2She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.* 3Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon,* with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems.b 4Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.c 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.* Her child was caught up to God and his throne.d 6The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days."

Jesus is the child "destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod." Mary is his Queen Mother. If Jesus' Kingdom will never end, then She, too, will reign as Queen forever.

Eileen111111:

Jesus is the child "destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod." Mary is his Queen Mother. If Jesus' Kingdom will never end, then She, too, will reign as Queen forever.

What utter nonsense.

JESUS reigns as LORD forever more, no co-equal among MEN , not even MARY. May will NOT rule with JESUS as a QUEEN. She is to be blessed but never put on an equal pedestal with JESUS.


Where do you Catholics get these strange doctrines from ?

Blasphemous catholic church.

Boomark: You wrote:

"Let me tell you things that are insuits to God.
2."Man making Mary a goddess."

Protestants judge Catholics uncharitably by accusing us of worshiping Mary and "making Mary a goddess." Ask yourselves what is involved in worship? Pagans worshiped their gods and Jews worshiped God by offering sacrifices. People today don't know what it means to worship God by making sacrifices. They imagine it's about singing and hearing sermons. In the Catholic view, Protestants don't know what worship means because Protestants eliminated the sacrifice of the Mass 500 years ago in their services. In the Protestant view, if you are praying the rosary to Mary, that's the same thing as worship.

We worship God by offering Him the sacrifice of the Mass. This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2)

No Catholic priest offers the sacrifice of the Mass to Mary. Catholics do not offer Mary sacrifices and, therefore, do not worship Her. We honor Her because she has such a high place in God's estimation that He took His flesh from Her. No other creature on earth was given this honor. She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth.

We honor the saints (including the Blessed Mother) not for who they are, but for who God made them to be. We honor in them the completed work of grace. We honor in them their faithful obedience, which itself is a gift from God. The Blessed Virgin says, “the Almighty has done great things for me!” We honor Mary and the saints because we are struck with delight and awe at the wonderful things God has done for them. As the moon reflects the sun, so the Virgin and saints reflect the light of Christ.

Eileen111111: Boomark: You wrote:

"Let me tell you things that are insuits to God.
2."Man making Mary a goddess."

Protestants judge Catholics uncharitably by accusing us of worshiping Mary and "making Mary a goddess." Ask yourselves what is involved in worship? Pagans worshiped their gods and Jews worshiped God by offering sacrifices. People today don't know what it means to worship God by making sacrifices. They imagine it's about singing and hearing sermons. In the Catholic view, Protestants don't know what worship means because Protestants eliminated the sacrifice of the Mass 500 years ago in their services. In the Protestant view, if you are praying the rosary to Mary, that's the same thing as worship.

We worship God by offering Him the sacrifice of the Mass. This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2)

No Catholic priest offers the sacrifice of the Mass to Mary. Catholics do not offer Mary sacrifices and, therefore, do not worship Her. We honor Her because she has such a high place in God's estimation that He took His flesh from Her. No other creature on earth was given this honor. She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth.

We honor the saints (including the Blessed Mother) not for who they are, but for who God made them to be. We honor in them the completed work of grace. We honor in them their faithful obedience, which itself is a gift from God. The Blessed Virgin says, “the Almighty has done great things for me!” We honor Mary and the saints because we are struck with delight and awe at the wonderful things God has done for them. As the moon reflects the sun, so the Virgin and saints reflect the light of Christ.

What does this mean ?

Whomever wrote this message shown below offered no real debate or evidence. There is only an assertion made and negative labels attached to what I wrote. Can that really be considered a non-emotional response? Here is the message:

"What utter nonsense. JESUS reigns as LORD forever more, no co-equal among MEN , not even MARY. May will NOT rule with JESUS as a QUEEN. She is to be blessed but never put on an equal pedestal with JESUS. Where do you Catholics get these strange doctrines from ? Blasphemous catholic church."

Catholics would agree that Jesus reigns as Lord forever more, no co-equal among Men, not even Mary. Logic and Biblical evidence reveal that Mary is Queen of Heaven. The Catholic Church has stated that Mary is not on an equal pedestal with Jesus. These things are not disputed. We agree with you. But if Jesus is the King of Heaven, logic says Mary is Queen of Heaven! Revelation 12 proves it!

^^^^

Does this scripture sound familiar :
Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger.

What don't you understand? The sacrifice of the Mass?

Eileen111111: What don't you understand? The sacrifice of the Mass?

Sacrifice of the body of Christ Jesus for our Sins, not the sacrifice of the Babylonian mass !!

Frosbel wrote: "Does this scripture sound familiar : Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger."

What is the definition of worship, Frosbel? Isn't true worship sacrifice to God? Do you see Catholics making cakes of bread for Mary? Do you see priests offering the sacrifice of the Mass to Mary? Do you hear them saying they offer Mary their bodies and souls? Do you see them pouring out drink offerings to Mary? Of course, you see none of these things. Protestants have forgotten what true worship is. True worship involves sacrifice. Protestants don't realize that because their definition of worship is singing and hearing sermons. Protestants eliminated true worship - the sacrifice of the Mass - 500 years ago when they eliminated the Mass from their services.

Here is the Biblical basis for the sacrifice of the Mass. Jesus said emphatically that He is the Bread of Life:

“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” (John 6 53-58)

Many of his disciples - INCLUDING JUDAS - left Him after that because they didn't believe they had to actually eat His Body. JESUS LET THEM ALL GO. Pay attention to that because you don't want to behave like Judas did.

Luke 22:17, 19-20 - (At the Last Supper) - “Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, ‘Take this and divide it among yourselves;…’ Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.’ “

Protestant ministers cannot confect Jesus in their communion hosts because they cannot trace their ordinations to the Apostles. Only the Apostles and their successors (Catholic or Eastern Orthodox priests and bishops) are capable of confecting Jesus in the Eucharist.

Catholics believe in the REAL PRESENCE OF JESUS CHRIST IN THE EUCHARIST (THE HOST) AT MASS.

Scientific evidence for the REAL PRESENCE OF JESUS CHRIST IN THE EUCHARIST is widely available in Eucharistic miracles. But the link I am sending you shows an atheistic doctor's discussion of the laboratory tests done on 3 of those miracles - all of which took place at Mass in different cities or countries in the 1990s and in one case on a different continent 1300 years ago. The scientific laboratory tests revealed that all three Eucharists consisted of human heart muscle, with the cells still beating. All shared the same DNA and blood type from a Middle Eastern man. Here is the link to the YouTube video:
<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbg_dhI4XCs>.

Heleen, please use this to quote people's post.

*quote]my post[/quote]

the * = [ (opened bracket). It will differentiate your post from others and will look like this:

my post

Ubenedictus: you didn't read the bolded, it says "to the spirit of the righteous made perfect". Now please answer d post.

like i told you, everything in Heb 12:21-24 is about living Christians gathering to serve in the era of Grace which is now different from the time of the LAW, Heb 12:18-20.

John 3:5-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly,
I say to you, unless one is born of
water and the Spirit, he cannot
enter the kingdom of God. 6 That
which is born of the flesh is flesh,
and that which is born of the Spirit
is spirit.

These righteous one are now spirits made perfect because they are born of the spirit and because they are now in Christ Jesus. There is nothing there suggesting the spirits of Mary and Peter in heaven came to fellowship with the saints(righteous one or holy ones).

Eileen111111: If,as Protestants say, Catholics are committing the sin of idolatry by putting statues and other images in their churches, then Protestants also commit the same "sin" by using all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or fish emblem. Why is it ok for you to use images, but we Catholics may not? Be consistent and practice what you preach.

The Catholic Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.

It is a falsehood to argue that early Christian saints did not venerate images. There were many saints, many of them monks, who were martyred or tortured for defending the Catholic faith in the 8th and 9th centuries, such as Sts. Theodore and Stephen.

Look at the images of the catacombs here that show early Christian art. Were the early Christians idolaters?

See images of Christ, the Last Supper, David in the lion's den, etc. Why, I even see images of Mary!!! Look here:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=images+of+early+christian+art+in+catacombs&hl=en&client=firefox-beta&hs=gpf&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=OJU3Ue29M6Gp2gXN2IHoAg&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1228&bih=660>

See images of the cross, St. Dionysas, a shepherd carrying 2 lambs, etc.: <https://www.google.com/search?q=images+in+catacombs&hl=en&client=firefox-beta&hs=oD0&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=D5E3UZTlEsOo2wWA7YFo&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1228&bih=660>.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says on its page entitled, "Veneration of Images":

"That Christians from the very beginning adorned their catacombs with paintings of Christ, of the saints, of scenes from the Bible and allegorical groups is too obvious and too well known for it to be necessary to insist upon the fact. The catacombs are the cradle of all Christian art. Since their discovery in the sixteenth century — on 31 May, 1578, an accident revealed part of the catacomb in the Via Salaria — and the investigation of their contents that has gone on steadily ever since, we are able to reconstruct an exact idea of the paintings that adorned them. That the first Christians had any sort of prejudice against images, pictures, or statues is a myth (defended amongst others by Erasmus) that has been abundantly dispelled by all students of Christian archaeology. The idea that they must have feared the danger of idolatry among their new converts is disproved in the simplest way by the pictures even statues, that remain from the first centuries. There are especially pictures of Christ as the Good Shepherd, as lawgiver, as a child in His mother's arms, of His head alone in a circle, of our Lady alone, of St. Peter and St. Paul — pictures that are not scenes of historic events, but, like the statues in our modern churches, just memorials of Christ and His saints.

"St. Ambrose (d. 397) describes in a letter how St. Paul appeared to him one night, and he recognized him by the likeness to his pictures (Ep. ii, in P.L., XVII, 821). St. Augustine (d. 430) refers several times to pictures of our Lord and the saints in churches (e.g. "De cons. Evang.", x in P.L., XXXIV, 1049; St. Jerome (d. 420) also writes of pictures of the Apostles as well-known ornaments of churches (In Ionam, iv). St. Paulinus of Nola (d. 431) paid for mosaics representing Biblical scenes and saints in the churches of his city, and then wrote a poem describing them (P.L., LXI, 884). Gregory of Tours (d. 594) says that a Frankish lady, who built a church of St. Stephen, showed the artists who painted its walls how they should represent the saints out of a book (Hist. Franc., II, 17, P.L., LXXI, 215). In the East St. Basil (d. 379), preaching about St. Barlaam, calls upon painters to do the saint more honour by making pictures of him than he himself can do by words ("Or. in S. Barlaam", in P.G., XXXI). St. Nilus in the fifth century blames a friend for wishing to decorate a church with profane ornaments, and exhorts him to replace these by scenes from Scripture (Epist. IV, 56)....St. Gregory the Great (d. 604) was always a great defender of holy pictures."

Do you see now how far Protestants have departed from what the early Church believed? The Catholic Church still retains the beliefs of the early Church.

saving the catacomb pics. thanks

Eileen111111: Boomark: You wrote:

"Let me tell you things that are insults to God.
1. "Man chosing who becomes the queen of heaven nd of Gods kingdom."

My response: There is Biblical support for calling Mary Queen of Heaven.

Mary as the Queen of Heaven is tied in with the Old Testament concept of the royal household. Because the King had many wives it was impossible for one to be Queen. Therefore the King’s mother served in the role. The Queen Mother sat on a throne at the King’s right hand and helped rule the kingdom. Access to the King would often be through the Queen Mother and she would ask favors from the King for those who asked her. You can see an example of this in I Kings 2: 17-25 where Solomon is on the throne next to his mother Bathsheba.

David prefigures God the Father; Solomon prefigures Jesus; and Bathsheba prefigures Mary.

Read Luke Ch. 1 where it says, "You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end."

Luke is saying here that God would give Jesus the throne of his father, David. What is David's throne that Jesus will inherit? Throughout Jesus' ministry, he repeatedly spoke of His kingdom - the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus is the King whose kingdom never ends. Who is Mary? His Mother. Let's use logic here. If he is the King of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of David, the Kingdom of Heaven, then who is the Queen? Mary is the Queen Mother of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of David, the Kingdom of Heaven. If Jesus is to reign as King forever, then Mary will reign as Queen Mother forever.

Revelation 11:19 and Revelation 12 provide support for Mary's Queenship. As you read Revelation 11:19, keep in mind that in the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant carried the Word of God. In the New Testament, Jesus is the Word of God. Who is the Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament? Mary, who carried Jesus in her womb for 9 months is the new Ark of the Covenant. It is one of her titles in the Catholic Church. Revelation 11:19 says:

"Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm."

Revelation 12 follows. It speaks of the "woman clothed with the sun" and "crowned with 12 stars." This passage represents both Mary and the Church:

"A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman* clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.a 2She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.* 3Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon,* with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems.b 4Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.c 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.* Her child was caught up to God and his throne.d 6The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days."

Jesus is the child "destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod." Mary is his Queen Mother. If Jesus' Kingdom will never end, then She, too, will reign as Queen forever.

amen my dear u know your onions.

frosbel:

What utter nonsense.

JESUS reigns as LORD forever more, no co-equal among MEN , not even MARY. May will NOT rule with JESUS as a QUEEN. She is to be blessed but never put on an equal pedestal with JESUS.


Where do you Catholics get these strange doctrines from ?

Blasphemous catholic church.

arguement from emotion. eleii never said mary and Jesus are on equal pedestal and i'm pretty sure she will never do so, u are fighting ur own strawman. drop down from ur emotions and make a rational discussion. Jesus is a king in the line of david and by principle he has a mother who is ipso facto queen mother. ur emotional response makes no sense

Eileen111111: Boomark: You wrote:

"Let me tell you things that are insuits to God.
2."Man making Mary a goddess."

Protestants judge Catholics uncharitably by accusing us of worshiping Mary and "making Mary a goddess." Ask yourselves what is involved in worship? Pagans worshiped their gods and Jews worshiped God by offering sacrifices. People today don't know what it means to worship God by making sacrifices. They imagine it's about singing and hearing sermons. In the Catholic view, Protestants don't know what worship means because Protestants eliminated the sacrifice of the Mass 500 years ago in their services. In the Protestant view, if you are praying the rosary to Mary, that's the same thing as worship.

We worship God by offering Him the sacrifice of the Mass. This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2)

No Catholic priest offers the sacrifice of the Mass to Mary. Catholics do not offer Mary sacrifices and, therefore, do not worship Her. We honor Her because she has such a high place in God's estimation that He took His flesh from Her. No other creature on earth was given this honor. She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth.

We honor the saints (including the Blessed Mother) not for who they are, but for who God made them to be. We honor in them the completed work of grace. We honor in them their faithful obedience, which itself is a gift from God. The Blessed Virgin says, “the Almighty has done great things for me!” We honor Mary and the saints because we are struck with delight and awe at the wonderful things God has done for them. As the moon reflects the sun, so the Virgin and saints reflect the light of Christ.

whoever u are i love u. u have d words i dont. thanks a thousand likes. i cant belive it.

Eileen111111: Boomark: You wrote:

"Let me tell you things that are insuits to God.
2."Man making Mary a goddess."

Protestants judge Catholics uncharitably by accusing us of worshiping Mary and "making Mary a goddess." Ask yourselves what is involved in worship? Pagans worshiped their gods and Jews worshiped God by offering sacrifices. People today don't know what it means to worship God by making sacrifices. They imagine it's about singing and hearing sermons. In the Catholic view, Protestants don't know what worship means because Protestants eliminated the sacrifice of the Mass 500 years ago in their services. In the Protestant view, if you are praying the rosary to Mary, that's the same thing as worship.

We worship God by offering Him the sacrifice of the Mass. This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2)

No Catholic priest offers the sacrifice of the Mass to Mary. Catholics do not offer Mary sacrifices and, therefore, do not worship Her. We honor Her because she has such a high place in God's estimation that He took His flesh from Her. No other creature on earth was given this honor. She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth.

We honor the saints (including the Blessed Mother) not for who they are, but for who God made them to be. We honor in them the completed work of grace. We honor in them their faithful obedience, which itself is a gift from God. The Blessed Virgin says, “the Almighty has done great things for me!” We honor Mary and the saints because we are struck with delight and awe at the wonderful things God has done for them. As the moon reflects the sun, so the Virgin and saints reflect the light of Christ.

whoever u are i love u. u have d words i dont. thanks a thousand likes. i cant belive it.