Boomark:

like i told you, everything in Heb 12:21-24 is about living Christians gathering to serve in the era of Grace which is now different from the time of the LAW, Heb 12:18-20.

John 3:5-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly,
I say to you, unless one is born of
water and the Spirit, he cannot
enter the kingdom of God. 6 That
which is born of the flesh is flesh,
and that which is born of the Spirit
is spirit.

These righteous one are now spirits made perfect because they are born of the spirit and because they are now in Christ Jesus. There is nothing there suggesting the spirits of Mary and Peter in heaven came to fellowship with the saints(righteous one or holy ones).

it didnt just say spirit it says "made perfecta'. besides ur interpretation is just a twist and doesnt make sense. those enrolled in heaven are earthly chistains ane those made perfect are also earthly xtians thotorlogy u are saying d bible made an uneccessary repeatition. i don forget how those profdey call am wen u say "so therefore". interesting

Here is a 3rd century early Christian Church hymn of prayer to Mary called the "Sub Tuum praesidium" found in a Coptic Orthodox Christmas liturgy. It is still prayed in the Greek Orthodox, Byzantine, Ambrosian and Roman Church liturgies. Catholics sing it at Lent, as do these other churches. I have provided a link below. Look at the translation. The Greek and Slavonic translations calls Mary "Theotokos." (The term "Theotokos" is Greek for "Mother of God."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium


Under thy protection
we seek refuge,
Holy Mother of God;
despise not our petitions
in our needs,
but from all dangers
deliver us always,
Virgin Glorious and Blessed

Oh my Goodness! It's a prayer to Mary, Mother of God dating from 250 A.D. As Cardinal John Newman once said, "To know history is to be Catholic."

Clearly, the early Christian Church did not consider prayer to Mary a form of idolatry or adoration. The Sub Tuum prayer tells us that the early Christian community went to their motherly Advocate especially in times of trial and danger.

This link to the website, Early Christians.org, shows that "The Virgin Mary has been honored and venerated as the Mother of God since the first centuries of Christianity.

http://www.earlychristians.org/docs_interest/Mary.html

There is a long list of early Christian saints on the website below including Sts. Jerome, John Chrysostom, & Methodius whose writings urge us to ask the saints to pray for us. The early Christian saints most certainly did pray to Mary because she is the most excellent saint of them all in God's eyes and He cannot say "no" to Her.

<http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc4.htm>

St. Jerome said: "You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

ST. AUGUSTINE SAID TO PRAY FOR THE DEAD WHICH PROTESTANTS DO NOT DO BECAUSE LUTHER REMOVED 1 & 2 MACCABEES FROM THEIR BIBLE. "There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

There are even prayers on the walls of the ancient Christian catacombs asking the dead to pray for the living.

Early Christians attended the Catholic Mass; believed in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist (the communion host); prayed for the intercession of Mary, the angels and the saints; prayed for the dead; and had images of God, His Mother, and the Saints in their Churches.

Ubenedictus: whoever u are i love u. u have d words i dont. thanks a thousand likes. i cant belive it.

Stop encouraging her into wrong doing. At least you know the truth more than she does.

What she has is so many words for the wrong thing. I wount say she is deluded untill i see consistent rejection of truth. What she needs is to learn bit by bit and not pouring too many words and getting confused. The too many words she received got her confusion.

Why would you save the catacomb picture? If you make images out of it, then we will be seeing a whole new set of images you guys tag Jesus.

Ubenedictus: it didnt just say spirit it says "made perfecta'. besides ur interpretation is just a twist and doesnt make sense. those enrolled in heaven are earthly chistains ane those made perfect are also earthly xtians thotorlogy u are saying d bible made an uneccessary repeatition. i don forget how those profdey call am wen u say "so therefore". interesting

I can see that what you want to believe is what the church fathers are teaching you. I have shown you the truth.

The spirit is perfect and what is born of the spirit is a spirit and has been made perfect by the spirit.

You didn't expect that answer. Why not untwist it with the truth according to the scripture.

Sorry, Ubenedictus, but I really don't understand you either. Perhaps it is a problem of understanding one another's language since we live on different continents.

Here are quotes from St. Augustine of Hippo showing he believed in prayers for the dead and the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist (which only Catholic and Orthodox priests are capable of uniting Jesus with the host because only they, not Protestant ministers, can trace their their ordinations to the Apostles).

"That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS." (Sermons 227)

"The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST'S BODY." (Sermons 234:2)

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST." (Sermons 272)

"How this ['And he was carried in his own hands'] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: 'THIS IS MY BODY.' FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS." (Psalms 33:1:10)

"Was not Christ IMMOLATED only once in His very Person? In the Sacrament, nevertheless, He is IMMOLATED for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being IMMOLATED." (Letters 98:9)

"Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator is OFFERED for them, or when alms are given in the church." (Ench Faith, Hope, Love 29:110)

"But by the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the SALVIFIC SACRIFICE, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. FOR THE WHOLE CHURCH OBSERVES THIS PRACTICE WHICH WAS HANDED DOWN BY THE FATHERS that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the Sacrifice itself; and the Sacrifice is OFFERED also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, the works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death." (Sermons 172:2)

"...I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord's feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING." (Psalms 98:9)

From this evidence shown above we clearly see the following from St. Augustine of Hippo --

(1) The bread having been sanctified "IS THE BODY OF CHRIST"

(2) The wine having been sanctified "IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST"

(3) We know Christ in the breaking of the bread; and not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ "BECOMES CHRIST'S BODY."

(4) When Christ said "THIS IS MY BODY" He carried "HIS OWN BODY" in "HIS OWN HANDS"

(5) Christ is "IMMOLATED" (sacrificed in an unbloody manner) in the Eucharist every day (this is not a re-crucifixion but a re-presentation or "making present" before the Father for our benefit and application of His one and only Sacrifice)

(6) Christ is Priest and Victim OFFERING Himself and in the daily Sacrifice His Body the Church OFFERS herself through/with Him

(7) All who wish to have eternal life must take as food and drink the Blood of Christ's Sacrifice in Holy Communion

( The souls of the dead in Christ find relief through the Sacrifice of the Mediator OFFERED for them and through the prayers of the living Body of Christ on earth

(9) The WHOLE Church observes this practice handed down from the Fathers -- the prayers of the Holy Church, the salvific Sacrifice, and alms and works of piety and mercy are offered for those who have died "in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ" so that the Lord might deal more mercifully with their sins

(10) Christ gave us His own flesh "to be eaten unto salvation" and no one eats that flesh unless He ADORES (worships) it in the Holy Eucharist since Christ is truly present and took flesh in the Incarnation

Ubenedictus, you said, "The spirit is perfect and what is born of the spirit is a spirit and has been made perfect by the spirit. You didn't expect that answer. Why not untwist it with the truth according to the scripture."

The Catholic Church would agree with your first sentence above, but I really don't understand what point you are trying to make here. What exactly is your objection? I don't understand why you are bothering to quote that scriptural passage in light of what I have posted.

bukatyne:
1. Mary is not the mother of GOd (God has no mother)
2. We don't have a heavenly mother else Joseph is our 'heavenly' father. Calling Mary our heavenly mother equates her with God
3. Jesus is our King; how can Mary be our Queen?

Nawa o, i tire for catholic people

Eileen111111: Ubenedictus, you said, "The spirit is perfect and what is born of the spirit is a spirit and has been made perfect by the spirit. You didn't expect that answer. Why not untwist it with the truth according to the scripture."

The Catholic Church would agree with your first sentence above, but I really don't understand what point you are trying to make here. What exactly is your objection? I don't understand why you are bothering to quote that scriptural passage in light of what I have posted.

I have taught you how to quote peoples post. Practice it.

That post was mine and i was discussing a different thing with ubenedictus. The best way to learn is to take it one at a time.

You are pouring out the thoughts of your church fathers. We stick to the word of God.

Bukatyne: You wrote:
"1. Mary is not the mother of GOd (God has no mother)"

My response: A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, some people often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinctpersons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity.

However, if you do not follow the faith of the Church fathers, then your faith cannot possibly resemble what early Christians believed.

^^Let me ask you.
Who created Mary? Was it Jesus Christ or not?

If it is him, will it be wrong for you to say that Jesus is the father of Mary? Jesus in his Godly nature in heaven created Mary so JESUS CHRIST IS THE FATHER OF MARY. Do you disagree?

When he was about coming to the earth, he was made a little lower than the angels, Heb 2:7. If you call him God when he is lower than the angels, then it wount be wrong to call an angel God.

Christ was born on earth a man, lower than the angels, lower than God. So Mary is the mother of a man.

This is why i said, Catholics are now deciding what is right for God our Father to do. God made him lower, catholics made him higher and equal to God.

Don't give us long out of context sermon. Focus of things i have said here and refute/debunk them just as i have use it to debunk what you wrote above.

Bukatyne: You said, "2. We don't have a heavenly mother else Joseph is our 'heavenly' father. Calling Mary our heavenly mother equates her with God."

The Bible says that Jesus will inherit the Kingdom of David, also called the Kingdom of Heaven. In the Kingdom of David, David's mother, Bathsheba was Queen. The King and Queen were not married in David's kingdom. They were mother and son. Catholics have always believed that God is far above Mary in stature and that only He is deserving of worship. She, however, is deserving of our respect because she agreed to do as God had asked by bearing Jesus in her womb and cooperating in the salvation of men.

"If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead." Gregory of Nazianzus, To Cledonius, 101 (A.D. 382).

You said, "^^Let me ask you. Who created Mary? Was it Jesus Christ or not? If it is him, will it be wrong for you to say that Jesus is the father of Mary? Jesus in his Godly nature in heaven created Mary so JESUS CHRIST IS THE FATHER OF MARY. Do you disagree?"

My response. Naturally, God created Mary, and there are three persons in one God - Father, Son and Holy Ghost. She is a creature, but also the best of all of the saints. God the Father is her Father. God the Son is her Son. God the Holy Spirit is her Spouse.

I think you misunderstood me. I never called an angel God.

Jesus is God and Man. He was born both God and Man. His divinity was and is a part of His nature. The two natures of Jesus were never severed. Mary is the Mother of the God-Man.

Catholics did not "decide what is right for God our Father to do." Who gave Peter authority when He was on earth? Jesus told Peter whose name means "rock" that He would build His Church on that rock. He also told the apostles "He who hears you hears Me." (Luke 10:16) If you refuse to submit and accept the authority Jesus established here on earth - Peter, the first pope, and the apostles AND THEIR SUCCESSORS - then you are deciding what is right and wrong, good and evil. That's what Satan told Eve when he tempted her to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. "You will be like God".

Boomark:

Stop encouraging her into wrong doing. At least you know the truth more than she does.

What she has is so many words for the wrong thing. I wount say she is deluded untill i see consistent rejection of truth. What she needs is to learn bit by bit and not pouring too many words and getting confused. The too many words she received got her confusion.

Why would you save the catacomb picture? If you make images out of it, then we will be seeing a whole new set of images you guys tag Jesus.

u shuld b beging her to give u d dose in bits, for me i totally understands her points. Veneration of d saints has been in d church since d times of d apostles, protestants are d ones who has diverted from d right path.

Boomark:

I can see that what you want to believe is what the church fathers are teaching you. I have shown you the truth.

The spirit is perfect and what is born of the spirit is a spirit and has been made perfect by the spirit.

You didn't expect that answer. Why not untwist it with the truth according to the scripture.

sorry my dear, since i've been on d thread i havent quote a single church father, and im sure that is itching u. I thought u would do a little research in heb then u would know d meaning of "spirit of d just made perfect". I guess u just gave me more work, i'll help ya.

Eileen111111: Sorry, Ubenedictus, but I really don't understand you either. Perhaps it is a problem of understanding one another's language since we live on different continents.

Here are quotes from St. Augustine of Hippo showing he believed in prayers for the dead and the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist (which only Catholic and Orthodox priests are capable of uniting Jesus with the host because only they, not Protestant ministers, can trace their their ordinations to the Apostles).

"That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS." (Sermons 227)

"The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST'S BODY." (Sermons 234:2)

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST." (Sermons 272)

"How this ['And he was carried in his own hands'] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: 'THIS IS MY BODY.' FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS." (Psalms 33:1:10)

"Was not Christ IMMOLATED only once in His very Person? In the Sacrament, nevertheless, He is IMMOLATED for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being IMMOLATED." (Letters 98:9)

"Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator is OFFERED for them, or when alms are given in the church." (Ench Faith, Hope, Love 29:110)

"But by the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the SALVIFIC SACRIFICE, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. FOR THE WHOLE CHURCH OBSERVES THIS PRACTICE WHICH WAS HANDED DOWN BY THE FATHERS that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the Sacrifice itself; and the Sacrifice is OFFERED also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, the works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death." (Sermons 172:2)

"...I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord's feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING." (Psalms 98:9)

my dear, i have seen those quotes, i know them, i've read them and i know they are d expression of d apostolic faith.
I believe in the real presence, d sacrifice of the mass and d intercession of and for d xtians not in dis life.

Eileen111111: Ubenedictus, you said, "The spirit is perfect and what is born of the spirit is a spirit and has been made perfect by the spirit. You didn't expect that answer. Why not untwist it with the truth according to the scripture."

The Catholic Church would agree with your first sentence above, but I really don't understand what point you are trying to make here. What exactly is your objection? I don't understand why you are bothering to quote that scriptural passage in light of what I have posted.

i wasnt refering to u, i was quoting bookmark.

Boomark: ^^Let me ask you.
Who created Mary? Was it Jesus Christ or not?

If it is him, will it be wrong for you to say that Jesus is the father of Mary? Jesus in his Godly nature in heaven created Mary so JESUS CHRIST IS THE FATHER OF MARY. Do you disagree?

When he was about coming to the earth, he was made a little lower than the angels, Heb 2:7. If you call him God when he is lower than the angels, then it wount be wrong to call an angel God.

Christ was born on earth a man, lower than the angels, lower than God. So Mary is the mother of a man.

This is why i said, Catholics are now deciding what is right for God our Father to do. God made him lower, catholics made him higher and equal to God.

Don't give us long out of context sermon. Focus of things i have said here and refute/debunk them just as i have use it to debunk what you wrote above.

what a joke!!! So Jesus lost d divine nature when he became man abi?? Since when did the divine nature become transferable and renouncable. You are who u are u cant stop been human. JEsus cant stop been God.

Eileen111111: You said, "^^Let me ask you. Who created Mary? Was it Jesus Christ or not? If it is him, will it be wrong for you to say that Jesus is the father of Mary? Jesus in his Godly nature in heaven created Mary so JESUS CHRIST IS THE FATHER OF MARY. Do you disagree?"

My response. Naturally, God created Mary, and there are three persons in one God - Father, Son and Holy Ghost. She is a creature, but also the best of all of the saints. God the Father is her Father. God the Son is her Son. God the Holy Spirit is her Spouse.

I think you misunderstood me. I never called an angel God.

Jesus is God and Man. He was born both God and Man. His divinity was and is a part of His nature. The two natures of Jesus were never severed. Mary is the Mother of the God-Man.

Catholics did not "decide what is right for God our Father to do." Who gave Peter authority when He was on earth? Jesus told Peter whose name means "rock" that He would build His Church on that rock. He also told the apostles "He who hears you hears Me." (Luke 10:16) If you refuse to submit and accept the authority Jesus established here on earth - Peter, the first pope, and the apostles AND THEIR SUCCESSORS - then you are deciding what is right and wrong, good and evil. That's what Satan told Eve when he tempted her to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. "You will be like God".

i agree

Ubenedictus: sorry my dear, since i've been on d thread i havent quote a single church father, and im sure that is itching u. I thought u would do a little research in heb then u would know d meaning of "spirit of d just made perfect". I guess u just gave me more work, i'll help ya.

I am waiting....

Let me see where Mary and Peter died and went to heaven when Paul was writing Hebrew.

Boomark:

I am waiting....

Let me see where Mary and Peter died and went to heaven when Paul was writing Hebrew.

u don't need d sacasm. when i have time i'll write about the just made perfect as dead old t saints and d exposition in heb

Ubenedictus: u don't need d sacasm. when i have time i'll write about the just made perfect as dead old t saints and d exposition in heb

Ok.

Ubenedictus: i agree

Deluded agreement.

I see why you guys sheepishly follow your priest on both true and false doctrine.

She is not even a priest. So you now agree that Jesus did not create Mary but just her son. Have you forgotten how you are busy quoting that Jesus created all things to support the defeated trinity doctrine.

SMH!!

Boomark:

Deluded agreement.

I see why you guys sheepishly follow your priest on both true and false doctrine.

She is not even a priest. So you now agree that Jesus did not create Mary but just her son. Have you forgotten how you are busy quoting that Jesus created all things to support the defeated trinity doctrine.

SMH!!

u see why i dont even take pleasure discussing with you where did she say Jesus didnt create mary?? u have started twisting

Eileen111111: You said, "^^Let me ask you. Who created Mary? Was it Jesus Christ or not? If it is him, will it be wrong for you to say that Jesus is the father of Mary? Jesus in his Godly nature in heaven created Mary so JESUS CHRIST IS THE FATHER OF MARY. Do you disagree?"

My response. Naturally, God created Mary, and there are three persons in one God - Father, Son and Holy Ghost. She is a creature, but also the best of all of the saints. God the Father is her Father. God the Son is her Son. God the Holy Spirit is her Spouse.

I think you misunderstood me. I never called an angel God.

Jesus is God and Man. He was born both God and Man. His divinity was and is a part of His nature. The two natures of Jesus were never severed. Mary is the Mother of the God-Man.

Catholics did not "decide what is right for God our Father to do." Who gave Peter authority when He was on earth? Jesus told Peter whose name means "rock" that He would build His Church on that rock. He also told the apostles "He who hears you hears Me." (Luke 10:16) If you refuse to submit and accept the authority Jesus established here on earth - Peter, the first pope, and the apostles AND THEIR SUCCESSORS - then you are deciding what is right and wrong, good and evil. That's what Satan told Eve when he tempted her to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. "You will be like God".

Go to my profile, you will see a thread that exposed the falsehood in trinity doctrine.

Stop shifting of goal post. I know you must have used "let us make man in our own image" to support trinity doctrine. Now you are telling us that he did not create Mary.

Ok. Have you heard that all things where made through him and for him? So he takes care of all that God made for him including Mary as a father. Did Christ create Mary or did he not?

Answer this 1st before you tell us where Peter said he is a POPE. No assumptions, we want bible facts.

Ubenedictus: u see why i dont even take pleasure discussing with you where did she say Jesus didnt create mary?? u have started twisting

Why i wrote that is because she gave a cunning answer which you agreed to.

I said that Jesus created Mary, therefore he is Mary's father.

She said, "God the Father is her Father, God the Son is her son and God the holy spirit is her spouse(this one too needs clarification). With this she left out the fatherly role of Jesus over Mary which is our focus point. This faults the statement that "Mary is the mother of God." She can't be the mother of her father.

God's position remained static while Jesus was glorified above his original position. Therefore he is not equal to God before and after his stay on earth.

Boomark:

Why i wrote that is because she gave a cunning answer which you agreed to.

I said that Jesus created Mary, therefore he is Mary's father.

She said, "God the Father is her Father, God the Son is her son and God the holy spirit is her spouse(this one too needs clarification). With this she left out the fatherly role of Jesus over Mary which is our focus point. This faults the statement that "Mary is the mother of God." She can't be the mother of her father.

God's position remained static while Jesus was glorified above his original position. Therefore he is not equal to God before and after his stay on earth.

u are reading what isnt there. mary gave birth to her creator is dat hard for u to understand?? as 4 spouse, i'll like to ask u a question, who is responsible for mary's pregnancy

You said, "So you now agree that Jesus did not create Mary but just her son. Have you forgotten how you are busy quoting that Jesus created all things to support the defeated trinity doctrine."

My response
I did not say that "Jesus did not create Mary but just her son." God created Mary, as he created all creatures, the heavens and the earth. It is possible for Mary to give birth to her Creator. The Bible says, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:16) Nothing is an obstacle for God.

Also read the Angel Gabriel's words to Mary, "And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived* a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren; for nothing will be impossible for God." (Luke 1:36-37)

The Bible says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.’ (John 1:1) Who is called the "Word of God" in the Bible? Jesus Christ! This passage says, "and the Word was God." Hence Jesus is God. He gave evidence He is God by his miracles in the Bible too.

He declares that He will come to be the judge of all men (Matthew 25:31). In Jewish theology the judgment of the world was a distinctively Divine, and not a Messianic, prerogative.

In the parable of the wicked husbandmen, He describes Himself as the son of the householder, while the Prophets, one and all, are represented as the servants (Matthew 21:33 sqq.).

He is the Lord of Angels, who execute His command (Matthew 24:31).

He approves the confession of Peter when he recognizes Him, not as Messias — a step long since taken by all the Apostles — but explicitly as the Son of God: and He declares the knowledge due to a special revelation from the Father (Matthew 16:16-17).

Finally, before Caiphas He not merely declares Himself to be the Messias, but in reply to a second and distinct question affirms His claim to be the Son of God. He is instantly declared by the high priest to be guilty of blasphemy, an offense which could not have been attached to the claim to be simply the Messias (Luke 22:66-71).

The rejection or destruction of religious images and the rejection of belief in the Trinity are Moslem influenced beliefs. Iconoclasm (the rejection and destruction of religious images) was first introduced in Christianity to the eastern emperors in Constantiople in the 8th century at a time when they were first being exposed to Moslem influence.

The doctrine of the Trinity is expressly taught in the New Testament.

The doctrine as to the Holy Spirit is clear. That His distinct personality was fully recognized is shown by many passages. Thus He reveals His commands to the Church's ministers: "As they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Ghost said to them: Separate me Saul and Barnabas . . ." (Acts 13:2).

The Holy Spirit directs the missionary journey of the Apostles: "They attempted to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus suffered them not" (Acts 16:7; cf. Acts 5:3; 15:28; Romans 15:30). Divine attributes are affirmed of Him.

He possesses omniscience and reveals to the Church mysteries known only to God (1 Corinthians 2:10); it is He who distributes charismata (1 Corinthians 12:11);

He is the giver of supernatural life (2 Corinthians 3:;

He dwells in the Church and in the souls of individual men, as in His temple (Romans 8:9-11; 1 Corinthians 3:16, 6:19).

The work of justification and sanctification is attributed to Him (1 Corinthians 6:11; Romans 15:16), just as in other passages the same operations are attributed to Christ (1 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 2:17).

Here is evidence for God the Father.

Jesus said to St. Philip: "Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?" (John 14:10), and in other passages no less explicit (John 14:7; 16:15; 17:21). The oneness of the power and action of God the Father and God the Son is affirmed: "Whatever he [the Father] does, the Son also does in like manner" (John 5:19, cf. John 10:38); and to the Son no less than to the Father belongs the Divine attribute of conferring life on whom He will (John 5:21). In John 10:29, Christ expressly teaches His unity of essence with the Father: "That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all . . . I and the Father are one."

Critics lay great stress upon the text: "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). They argue that this establishes that the author of the Gospel held subordinationist views, and they expound in this sense certain texts in which the Son declares His dependence on the Father (John 5:19; John 8:28). In point of fact the doctrine of the Incarnation involves that, in regard of His Human Nature, the Son should be less than the Father. No argument against Catholic doctrine can, therefore, be drawn from this text. So too, the passages referring to the dependence of the Son upon the Father do but express what is essential to Trinitarian dogma, namely, that the Father is the supreme source from Whom the Divine Nature and perfections flow to the Son.