https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp8rMsOCsvY

The above is a rather long discussion however, it is something I would like you to look into and hopefully we can discuss in depth at some point.

The discussion is open for everyone else who wants to join in (it is not limited to Goshen). I am not particularly taking sides on this one but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

God bless y'all

Yours acknowledged. I'm busy this weekend but will try see if I can make out time to discuss. If not, anytime from Monday will be fine. Thanks.

Goshen360: Yours acknowledged. I'm busy this weekend but will try see if I can make out time to discuss. If not, anytime from Monday will be fine. Thanks.

That's cool. Take your time with it. I am not in hurry at all.

Mr_Anony2:

NT Wright vs. James White - St. Paul & Justification - Unbelievable?

The above is a rather long discussion however, it is something I would like you to look into and hopefully we can discuss in depth at some point.

The discussion is open for everyone else who wants to join in (it is not limited to Goshen). I am not particularly taking sides on this one but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

God bless y'all

@Mr_Anony2

What exactly do you want to look into and what hopefully do you want in depth discuss about.

Which parts in the almost a hour and half discussion do you want to talk about?

The participants are all traveling on the same train but in different carriages (e.g. first class, carriage hallway, quiet carriage or the other carriage where one who doesn't want to be quiet sits in) Also some are traveling facing the direction of travel only, some are traveling backing the direction of travel only and some are traveling taking in the whole scenery ...

I think Tom was wary and wasn't explicit enough.

There were elements of cold feet without getting the feet wet or stepping into deep waters as it were by some of the other participants

What about those who would have loved to participate(esp. me) but have no via(i mean like enough internet data,time,etc) to watch the video?

Well, just speaking for myself anyway, but am sure there are many others like me with same issue.


Maybe i would just follow the topic and see how it ends.
Thanks

Mayowura:

What about those who would have loved to participate(esp. me) but have no via(i mean like enough internet data,time,etc) to watch the video?

Well, just speaking for myself anyway, but am sure there are many others like me with same issue.


Maybe i would just follow the topic and see how it ends.
Thanks

@Mayowura

Automatic caption/transcript
0:00
well good afternoon unwelcome along to unbelievable with me justin brierley
0:04
it's the program every saturday afternoon here on prime your christian
0:07
radio
0:08
lengths to get you thinking and we've got all wonderful parrot guests coming
0:11
up today james white and anti rights that they're going to be talking about
0:16
justification a special program today dino number of people have been looking
0:20
forward to sinn fein ousted last week
0:23
but before we get their full introductions and getting to today's
0:26
program
0:27
can i tell you dot unbelievable the conference twenty thirteen is coming on
0:30
saturday the twenty fifth of maggie it's uh... conference for anyone interested
0:35
in apologetics evangelism theology thinking through your faith in how to
0:39
present it rationally reasonably to other people
0:42
it is outside the major apologetics event of the year
0:45
in central london
0:47
so if you can come along on sunday the twenty fifth of night why not register
0:50
your interest now we've got a website up and running
0:53
uh... datya premio dot org dot u_k_ slash jesus that spring it dot org dot
0:59
u_k_ slash jesus
1:01
why jesus well because of the theme of the conference
1:04
unbelievable the conference twenty thirteen jesus lie absolutely take
1:08
legend or lord
1:11
might be able to tell if you are into apologetics a little bit of a reference
1:14
to
1:15
the uh... newest try them ucsd is destroyed and lower lip added another
1:18
category that because we are talking about jesus uh...
1:22
he asked his disciples who do you say that i am not question resounds today
1:26
we're going to be looking in some depth with special guest speakers
1:30
alistair mcgrath
1:31
annual ewing p_-two as williams
1:34
buzz around there
1:35
uh... travis tamas and other guest besides
1:37
at the question of jesus who he was how we can
1:41
transmit that truth to other people wheels to be looking at c_s_ lewis and
1:44
he's continuing legacy after fifty years from his death
1:48
and also based on the front will be tackling some of those controversial
1:51
ethical issues like abortion
1:53
euthanasia
1:54
what science has to say
1:56
if you can join us idly
1:58
love to see that it is or is a fantastic thing it is the third year we've been
2:01
running it
2:02
saturday the twenty fifth of night two thousand and thirteen in central london
2:06
how do you go and register your interest and will be able to do full booking once
2:10
that becomes life uh... but you can if you're if you're interested as your
2:14
email address you'll get the full details of what's happening at the
2:17
conference and of course you'll be the first night when the booking lines to
2:21
open site premio dot org dot u_k_ slash
2:25
jesus is the place to go
2:27
well let me introduce today's guest yet
2:33
likely to be looking forward to having
2:35
and she writes that home is feel nine uh... tone right anti rights that
2:40
joining me on the program today research professor of new testament early
2:44
christianity at andrews necessity
2:46
and we're here to talk about
2:49
the example release a about justification that's the question
2:54
that we looking at on today's conditions of unbelievable
2:58
tom has
2:59
in many ways thing at the forefront of looking into the historical jesus
3:03
resurrection implement some of those victory for the most part
3:08
also the at nature all orenthal writing has been a major papers in the last few
3:13
years you've got a new book coming out later in the year
3:16
uh... all in the faith with the court
3:18
and uh...
3:20
a lot of the argument to say that have been raging the academic world and if
3:23
you look at the world have been to do with
3:25
what he writes about the nature or justification
3:29
uh... that what's sometimes called
3:31
the new perspective
3:33
uh... so
3:34
we gonna get tool that's also on the program joining me today
3:37
uh... show regular he's been on a number of times before james white joins the
3:41
director of alpha anindita ministries
3:43
absent arizona in the states
3:45
uh... he's myself um... is a bible scholar and uh... he's
3:49
uh... parts of
3:50
what you would call
3:51
generally the reform tradition uh... he's accompanist what does that mean
3:55
there when it comes to this debate why particularly have some of the more
3:58
influential voices in that world john piper
4:02
is that the specific example
4:04
today now we're talking about just dictation welcome a long time to your
4:08
program thank you very much good to be with you
4:10
well as a side oblong wants to have you on so when i saw that there was a
4:14
possibility of you coming in i thought let's not in let's go ahead at last
4:19
week ago which calm but anti right is how many people you know you as as an
4:23
offer uh...
4:24
you seem to be a produce more books and i've had hoped
4:28
dinners admits what is the secret seal prolific output uh... there's no secrets
4:33
uh...
4:34
simply aspects of the first twenty years of my adult life during losses reading
4:38
studying praying thinking
4:40
discussing
4:41
and sometime around just when i turn forty i thought you know i've been doing
4:45
some time as thomas dot iraq sits on the down
4:48
and uh... happily the whole word processing fee of taken off and wifi and
4:53
i can use could be so it might very fast
4:57
in a sense i was cutting a lot of seeds for twenty years which have been in the
5:00
last twenty years been bearing fruit
5:02
they certainly have uh... hands
5:04
many people would see years at the forefront of
5:07
modern scholarship especially uh... person of paul uh...
5:13
at the same time doing anything you often means that people will disagree
5:16
with your thesis is and not leases a mention people like ad in the states
5:20
john piper but
5:22
uh... what what is exactly that you said if you can condense into a nut shell
5:25
that has got people buddies
5:28
very interested but also some people rather skeptical
5:32
it's hard to say one thing because there's three or four different things
5:35
which kind of
5:36
uh... rush together a certain point uh... for instance one of the things
5:40
that i and many others have become convinced is that many first-century
5:43
jews
5:44
really well living out of a long story which goes back to daniel nine which
5:49
says that there is a sense in which the exile hasn't finished yet
5:52
and that called me to do something new which will finish it this is a space
5:56
tint on your mind
5:57
and for many people that's very scary the idea of a continuous story which is
6:01
now reaching fulfilment that's not how they've seen portal
6:05
but then it's a quite different level
6:06
it's to do with wanted first introduce really believe
6:10
that they were doing when they were keeping the lol were they earning
6:13
favor with called or something like that
6:15
and in a sense yes they were in a sense no they weren't
6:18
my my real problem is that i think am i have glimpsed in the first century a
6:24
sense that they are much more concerned as jesus himself was with colds kingdom
6:28
come on earth
6:29
hasn't happened
6:30
and western christianity has been concerned of how to leave the thumb go
6:34
to heaven and the justification debates have often been framed in appalachia
6:38
uh... context and so when i said no actions is about new creation it's about
6:42
resurrection it's about called you world and how you tell in the president's who
6:46
is going to be part of gold's new world
6:48
people get very steady m
6:50
and so it's it's a combination of several different things as well as
6:54
particular texts which
6:56
have been favorites for for exigency preaches
6:59
and which when i've looked at them some of them i've said lou
7:03
looks to me really as though that doesn't mean what we all thought it
7:06
meant
7:06
and then that is that is very upsetting people naturally unit and
7:10
plus and work
7:11
this is
7:12
what drives you isn't it going back to the text going back to the background of
7:16
the context of a texan and
7:18
in this debate that we're having today about justification your feeling is that
7:22
very often people are looking too
7:24
the city debates in the medieval church more than the debates that was going on
7:28
people's day yes uh... without wishing to be picky let me just pick you up this
7:31
isn't something i feel is something i think this is a man a major problem in
7:35
contempt for the schools that needs a few when we mean thinks it was sort of a
7:38
very fine them
7:39
uh... particular i think that's the way that the reformers
7:43
work addressing the question
7:45
came to them actually from the fourteenth and fifteen sentry from the
7:48
theories of justification of the matching his tutsi which was very
7:51
and powerful prevalent in medieval church
7:54
and the way i say it is a social trend is that the reformers are doing their
7:57
best to give biblical ons is to the wrong questions ortiz dot entirely the
8:02
wrong questions but at least questions that was significantly floored and i'm
8:06
really interested in getting back and saying
8:09
water of the questions that were out there in the first century the polls
8:12
giving his answers to
8:14
parts of the tricky is to see
8:16
uh... how the whole of paul's letters fit together in other words you called
8:20
stop romans three at first twenty six
8:22
and you come to meet romans nine to eleven
8:25
you columns and pull apart bits of the nation's three and just con straight on
8:29
buses ten to fourteen forget other bits and so on and so on
8:32
so i'm really concerned about the whole flow of each letter
8:36
i have a sense the different from calvin listening to that claim
8:39
they would say yeah that's the thing you have to do go for it they might disagree
8:42
i did it but that's my agenda is to go back to the text in
8:46
get it right
8:46
i know you've got another quote your
8:48
papers i've does magnum really if that's the right word
8:52
is coming out late in the uh... uh... that's the big evol you on paul's and
8:57
say we look forward to that way you
8:59
to begin b keep people even more cool stuff potentially
9:02
find follow ups and millions of hostages to force in the but i'll tell you all
9:06
schisms and
9:07
evidences and answers as to what's going on
9:10
so we lay out exactly what you
9:12
say
9:13
about the way pull really means justification what he really meant when
9:17
he's that would
9:19
uh... before we get to you in that case out let's introduce our other guest for
9:22
today's program that is of course james whites
9:25
and james nate strange to this program uh... last oh i think james talking with
9:31
muslim guest in the light of stuff going on around the uh... the film of the
9:34
prophet muhammad and so on
9:36
you coming back to shore soon i think i need to do a few more discussions
9:39
debates in tool
9:40
i actually i'll be in uh... dublin at the end of this month but really college
9:45
uh... and you know you cd i believe uh... both uh... two different to
9:49
tonight's uh... discussing
9:50
the koran as the word of god with some of most americans out of their soul
9:54
justice couple weeks but i won't actually being the one that at that
9:57
point
9:57
i'll be teaching berlin in june so i may get the london abap level we will see
10:01
its uh... still sort of the new york how great stuff well if you're in the island
10:05
area and work to make a day-to-day to check out the details and of course
10:09
details for both my guests in their websites
10:11
with the podcast of today's program
10:13
uh... that's premier tofu dot u_k_ slash unbelievable
10:17
and jiang's and thank you so much for coming on st
10:21
we should say from the outset you haven't had much time to prepare for the
10:24
sake of very late notice once i found tom was coming in
10:27
and so on so and
10:29
with that uh... is sort of addendum uh... tell us a little bit about what
10:34
you've made of
10:35
tom's work as you interacted with over the years
10:38
well yeah i did like contrast the when i had my debated john donne across in the
10:42
uh... incredibly intelligent term and i had six months to immerse myself his
10:47
lectures about this that
10:48
uh... his autobiography and everything else of seventy hours not quite the same
10:53
thing but
10:54
uh... actually uh... the new perspective was a focus of my studies uh... back
10:59
around two thousand three two thousand five
11:02
and i live in the side primarily because that's my really begin my serious uh...
11:06
study of
11:07
as farm in the car on another defense
11:10
of picking up arabic and all that uh... wonderful fun stuff not really a whole
11:13
lot of overlap there though i think we will see that there are some questions
11:16
that that arise uh... that i that i want to raise that at some of later point but
11:21
um... in this subject uh... out all the ostriches past couple days has been very
11:25
interesting because
11:27
i have a very well worn copy of what same poll really said in my hands and
11:32
overwhelm markets and lots of lots of
11:34
uh... comments the notes and things like that
11:37
but there've been development sense then and so looking at the exchange between a
11:42
doctor right in dr piper
11:44
in their published works
11:45
um... was somewhat helpful
11:48
though not as helpful as i hoped it would be sleeper goss with you
11:51
and so i'm gonna ask uh... uh... and again i a m i was just races that's way
11:56
that you use contradict the titles for their own the writer editor doctor
12:00
patient i don't know
12:01
hydrogenated years there but insist
12:06
just great against membrane that anyways uh... what i found an ad like that i'd
12:10
like to ask if this would be
12:12
really
12:13
representational of where tom feels himself to be today
12:17
is your jets article from archer twenty eleven that's about as close as i can
12:21
get
12:21
okay justification yesterday today and forever with that
12:25
uh... seat
12:27
i apologize and so when i for example deal with islam
12:31
uh... i don't know who'd run this in my head years ago in really i was a
12:36
conviction mine before menstruation
12:38
you go to the original sources
12:39
and one of things that has really concern me just over the past couple
12:43
days
12:44
is i hear a lot of talking past from both directions there's a lot of
12:49
um...
12:50
language problems were using the same words mean different things by them
12:54
uh... this is nothing new you go back to the early transferring controversies
12:58
east and west with costly talking past rhythm
13:00
partly because of greek and and latin and so and so forth
13:04
i've just says the lot of of uh... miscommunication between both sides
13:09
ans uh... especially in listening to people attempting to summarize new
13:14
perspective is the most don't think that's even a
13:16
a possible thing to do
13:18
in there so many different new perspectives i mean there's so many
13:21
different nuances between yourself and james d_ g_ donner are uh... sanders or
13:25
or whoever else it might be
13:27
that i've tried to find a way of really focusing upon you individually because
13:32
he
13:33
uh... for example you have and much higher view of uh... the consistency in
13:39
inspiration scripture
13:41
than many others who would call themselves new perspectives
13:44
and that has to be brought out it's not brought out there's going to be a
13:46
flattening out this could be a misrepresentation and that's something i
13:49
think you complain about many many times
13:52
uh... in yemen different concepts
13:54
uh... so my background as an apologist primarily drove me to this article and
13:59
and that's really were i'm gonna be focusing my about my talents if that's
14:03
if that's useful to you is that certainly useful in anonymity ways and
14:07
because of
14:08
the constraints the program like this we won't be able to
14:11
betty grace the surface of many of thick issues here and but what we will have to
14:16
do is layout
14:18
the perspective uh... on justification
14:20
allow you some time to make some critics are some questions
14:24
a south james and uh... and see what all has to say in response and and let
14:27
people go away in uncut more things if they wanted
14:31
that who perhaps i could just say if thats chaps article would be is a good
14:34
place to start that was a recent short statement
14:37
in a conference where i was in debate with frank field semen from descended
14:40
into school and uh... atone tryna from southern seminary
14:44
and both aus calls that i've enjoyed engaging with i've used to work on other
14:48
occasions
14:48
where not head to head on everything has a lot we agree on but let me just very
14:52
firmly say yes to ward was just said about
14:55
the new perspective there is no one thing called a new perspective
14:59
several different scholars with very very different views and indeed ever
15:02
since
15:03
uh... the publication of its on this in nineteen seventy seven which really got
15:06
this thing going
15:07
i've spent as much time attacking or modifying all pulling away from saunders
15:11
as i have agreeing with him
15:13
he kind of
15:14
alerted assaults one particular phenomena namely a misrepresentation of
15:18
first-century judaism i don't think he got it right either
15:21
and the tosca is to go on beyond that to the scene now where can we all
15:25
welcome well that's the topic up today in general terms anthony perspective
15:30
uh... even though it's a hopping to pin down
15:33
but particularly within that new perspective we asking today wanted
15:37
simple release a about justification within a cat
15:40
psalm to explain why he thinks
15:42
the church has misunderstood
15:45
what paul manned by justification for quite a long time
15:48
if you want to get involved if you want to add respond to anything you hear on
15:51
today's program i would welcome your emails that unbelievable at premio dot
15:56
org dot u_k_
15:57
you can equally find me on twitter at unbelievable j_p_ if you want to tweet
16:01
me uh... and face book dot com slash unbelievable j_p_ if you want to like
16:06
the face book page
16:07
don't get all the links including to both my guest today james white and tom
16:11
right i'm gonna get confused on site between hasty and their own available
16:15
from the cherry page premier dot org dot u_k_ slash
16:19
unbelievable
16:20
you're listening to the sherry that aims to get you thinking
16:27
hide
16:34
so coming back to you that tom and in the last tends to texas as a starter
16:39
question you on this and
16:42
in a nutshell
16:44
you know and i'll tell you i was it
16:48
it's important say about just protection
16:50
what have we often issues he was saying
16:53
what do you think
16:54
he actually said
16:56
let me try make this is brief as i can it it's it's not as straightforward as
17:00
its ultimatum indeed one of the main problems is oversimplification
17:04
i'm committed to understanding each of the biblical texts in the proper context
17:08
and in trying to say what to do a very specifically have to say
17:13
galatians is the first major statement
17:16
and in donations poor is really concerned about the fact that you do not
17:20
have to become physically jewish by males getting circumcised in order to
17:24
belong to the covenant people of god
17:26
however ever since the medieval period is going to the start of martin luther
17:31
people pulled away from the idea of the couple of people the people of a brown
17:36
that was in the middle ages wanted to know about they want to know how do i go
17:39
to heaven
17:39
and so they took
17:41
pulls arguments about belonging to the
17:43
historic people of golden of the children abraham and they translated
17:47
that into language about going to have him which actually
17:50
relations doesn't have anything to say about doesn't mention salvation
17:53
certainly doesn't mention
17:56
dimension which is now so familiar to us
17:58
and so there's been a major misunderstanding that it's about how we
18:01
know
18:02
all those who believe in jesus pot right now
18:05
members of the same family at the same table
18:08
this is not something although then
18:10
forgiveness of sins of sector because
18:12
in order to create this family out of a sinful humanity
18:16
gold has to deal with this and that the emphasis of deletions
18:19
and of what what the language of just occasion
18:22
is a people coming into that family then in philippians chapter three more
18:26
briefly
18:27
tapestry versus two for eleven bull sets out to stall
18:31
this is the kind of july walls i was the real zealous type the hardliner
18:35
box
18:36
i have discovered a bit into the messiah jesus
18:39
all that has been stood on its head and by dying and rising with the missile i
18:43
have
18:44
a state to solve
18:45
righteousness which is my own
18:47
not a statement which is not my own based on the role but his
18:50
a status which is gold's gift it's a righteous news from gold upon the face
18:55
here again it's about covenant membership
18:57
there's nothing in philippines three to two eleven abouts in and being forgiven
19:02
that's really important we have to do justice to that when paul expands that
19:06
language in romans
19:08
he expands it by using
19:10
lol court language which goes with justification as well
19:15
in a way which he doesn't in deletions in philippians and in the law court
19:19
there are two different things going on all the as quickly because i can about
19:22
this but but it really is is quite tricky
19:25
in romans too
19:26
he talks about a future justification that is the time when god will judge the
19:31
whole world
19:32
and declare that some people really are his people and that's what's going to be
19:37
there's a line from that in the letter which goes all the way to captivate when
19:41
he says there is no condemnation for those who are in christ jesus and at the
19:45
end
19:46
it is but it is going to justifies who's to condemn
19:49
so the line from romans tutor romans eight
19:52
is all about the ultimate future
19:54
justification then romans three
19:57
he describes how verdict which will be announced on the future date
20:02
is brought
20:03
all woods into the president's
20:04
when someone believes in jesus and that's question complicated scheme for
20:09
us to grasp but it was very easy for palmas that's had pheasant regions
20:12
thought there is that great coming day how do we know in the president's
20:16
who is going to be among gold's people on that day surrenders three is about
20:20
the fact that on the basis of the the death of jesus and because of
20:25
people coming to face
20:27
going to class in the present that they are in the right that their sins are
20:31
forgiven that they're part of a brown's family
20:33
that i think what somalia did sorry well i'm not a very candid and abrasive
20:37
lifetimes coalition in september
20:40
uh... and if i can try and
20:41
trying spell this out and and you will have to grant me
20:44
but can we say the justification and as far as paul was consent is about
20:48
membership more than personal salvation like uh... this is precisely because the
20:54
role that we have to avoid ok because
20:57
the membership questions the membership in the family of paper hand
21:00
and the purpose of abraham is family whilst undo
21:03
listener adam that is the huge thing which
21:06
once you put that in the middle of the picture
21:08
everything becomes clear why do you want to belong to the family of abraham for
21:11
goodness sake onset
21:13
because they are the people
21:15
room the odometer entail of sin and death
21:18
has been dealt with so it's got to be both
21:21
and did the reformers get it wrong then
21:23
i mean did they get the wrong and that the speak essentially about what
21:26
justification aids they came with them meaning for the world used to pick up
21:31
seeing in latin justification
21:33
which walls about
21:35
uh... the medieval doctrine of use tutsi a justice and they screamed out
21:40
biologically thinking for more than calvin
21:43
all the jewish emphasis all the abraham emphasis all of that
21:46
the calls for luther
21:48
the jews were teaching justification by works therefore this couldn't be of
21:51
jewish idea because that would slide you back many scholars make that's a mistake
21:55
today
21:58
will get gangs to respond to this that
22:03
a lot of people seem worried that your somehow undermining
22:08
the group that's we saved by grace
22:11
because many people said when paul talks about his poss life is a to uh... uh...
22:16
uh... nor keeping view
22:19
that says to us today that you're not going to get back to heaven by your good
22:23
works
22:24
it's all about wolcott is done for you in jesus christ
22:27
and that you are somehow undermining that court doctrine that cool unit
22:31
aspect of protestant
22:34
christianity part of the difficulty is the new testament is not turbine shit
22:37
about going to happen that's interested in the new heavens in the new with and
22:41
in the kingdom of god coming on earth has in heaven
22:43
and as long as we persist in talking about how we get to heaven
22:47
we're reversing what the new testament is really all about
22:50
i've often said happen is important but it's not the end of the world when we
22:54
had i don't know if we are if where christ we got to be with christ which is
22:57
far better but but then actions is this isn't a separate discussions this
23:01
effects
23:02
how do you talk about present justification
23:05
in terms of how you see the future
23:07
all right well we've we've had it spelled out and and gangs
23:10
to some initial thoughts what what are your main concerns with the way toned
23:15
the news perspective deal with issues she of justification
23:19
always fascinates me is as i approached this of the justice the word from my own
23:24
experience uh... when i was in seminary
23:27
um... again because i had this go to the original sources i've found a local
23:31
christian bookstore i'd personally purchase the mission arnott and decency
23:35
nepal mud
23:36
uh... this is back to free to do that electronico interest
23:39
and uh... i
23:41
have always recognize that there is a spectrum of jewish belief i think one of
23:45
the issues that has to be addressed it went well the reason this is such a
23:47
complex issue
23:49
is because there's so many underlying issues in regards to tentative judy is a
23:53
man
23:53
and what is second temple jews believe and of course are all sorts of different
23:56
kinds of perspectives amongst them and all the rest the stuff
24:00
i've just never been in a position where
24:03
love like i guess as as tom input of certain especially lutherans would would
24:08
be a
24:09
right viewed the jews in this monolithic pull yourself up by your boot straps
24:12
mode anyways as this business never have understood it
24:16
and
24:16
in the basque of reform theology you have union with christ you have the
24:21
covenant of grace
24:22
you have just vacation having its proper place in the midst of all of this and it
24:28
just seems to me that
24:29
the things that i hear in uh... especially in tom's present asian
24:34
that resonate with me and i see is being biblical i ready hat
24:38
um... identified i don't think that uh... it's it's addressed to me because
24:42
i didn't view it in that way
24:44
and the questions and then come up though
24:47
that many people have read drivers repeated or over and over again
24:52
has to do with this
24:53
what is the ground
24:55
lose and the basis
24:57
of my standing before god
24:59
and does that change between now
25:02
and the future
25:03
in other words when you say that digest fish is primarily an ecclesiastical
25:07
ethnically theology issue who's in how can we know now
25:12
what is the grounds that i have as an individual
25:16
in having peace with god and in however we understand romans foreign city one
25:20
issues i don't know for you don't get to it but
25:23
uh... but but on the missing aromas for one
25:26
if he will have to admit is outside the normal range of exegesis are saying the
25:30
same print is five twenty one of romans ten and and how we understand some of
25:34
things there
25:35
there's some issues we can get into there and and that's where it becomes
25:38
somewhat complicated but
25:40
how do we know
25:41
not just from the external sends of how do we know who's in the covenant now
25:46
but the big issue that there's a lot of concern about is when we get to the and
25:53
and tom says that the final declaration of justification will be based upon the
25:59
life live
26:00
the issue of based upon
26:03
according to
26:04
new these are all issues that the people become very uncomfortable
26:08
by understand i think by understand i'm trying to understand in distinction to
26:12
other new perspective this
26:14
what tom is saying at that point
26:16
but my concern is that when i think about the jews idols see them as as
26:21
moralists trying to pull themselves up other bootstraps
26:24
but idea lucy and i i i can't see how paul can be read in any other way
26:28
then speaking of a synergistic righteousness
26:32
on their part
26:33
that's
26:34
the new perspective even as tom announces that by don't see how
26:38
it closes the door on that synergism in in fact
26:41
maybe one of the things we can bring up a disgrace to explain what you mean by
26:45
synergistic what i mean by that is uh... as as i see or what the jews were saying
26:51
and as i see polls concern it's not jobs and i and the thing i appreciate it
26:55
appreciate about what uh... tom wright as saying it is
26:58
there is clearly a national and ethnic
27:01
aspect
27:02
to their concerns but i don't think it's just that's
27:06
because a person who would for example limit god's blessings
27:09
to just are ethnic group
27:11
that doesn't speak well of their entire moral character
27:14
and clearly when we read matthew will read all the poll says
27:17
there was and ethical and moral aspect to what the jews were saying as well
27:22
and so the the kind of law keeping that they were doing
27:28
partook of both of these aspects enhanced the
27:31
the meritorious standing before god comes from their fulfilment of these
27:35
things is both ethical and moral
27:38
and i don't know how the new perspective or at least let's we believe that firm
27:42
on his side
27:43
howell thomas position in light of this statement
27:46
that the final verdict just occasion the based upon the life live
27:50
how it can close the door on that
27:52
cooperation where you have a mixture of god's gracious uh... extension of the
27:58
covenants and bring people into the coming graciously and all those things
28:02
bc the issue the reformation
28:04
was not the necessity of grace
28:06
and the council trent
28:07
condemned anyone who said that you can be saved apart from god's grace the
28:10
issue the reformation has never been
28:13
the necessity of grace
28:14
the issue the reformation has always been the sufficiency
28:18
of grace
28:19
and that's really where the issue is the discomfort exists
28:22
shall we say
28:23
ip also by the way i just got a mention this and i'll just throw it out there
28:26
'cause we're gonna it later
28:28
also the issue of grounds touches on the issue of imputation invitation has to be
28:33
discussed will delay dot we we will talk about imputation
28:36
week right now gonna go to a breaking story time for a passport earlier on on
28:39
them will let tom respond to some of james's concerns there
28:43
week talking about simple on what he really said about justification mike
28:48
special guest with mean steiger today is professor anti rightists home as he's
28:53
also nine tom right research professor of new testament and early christianity
28:57
uh... v_h_s_ at saint andrews university ortho of many many books and of course
29:03
this issue has been one that he's written on few times well james white
29:07
director of alpha anamika ministries is on the line from the states and we
29:10
getting uh... that conversation on this whole area of what pull really meant
29:15
about justification comeback in a couple of minutes time
29:18
and will be continuing
29:21
welcome back to unbelievable with me justin brierley back into our discussion
29:24
between anti right
29:26
and james white in just a moment stand
29:28
this quick reminder that that you can now register your interest to attend
29:32
unbelievable the conference twenty thirteen
29:34
jesus liar lunatic legend
29:37
or lord
29:38
happening on saturday the twenty fifth of night
29:40
just visit the website premier talktalk dot u_k_ slash jesus and you can read
29:45
your email address with s you'll get in return for full details of the
29:49
conference what the seminars are he's going to be speaking about what and of
29:53
course you'll be the first and i want you can finalize your booking premiered
29:57
talktalk dot u_k_ slash jesus is the place to go we're going to be joined by

@ Mr Anony2,

I follow up with our brother moredendisc. What do you want us to discuss on the subject of justification. I've listened to the debate.

moredendisc:

@Mr_Anony2

What exactly do you want to look into and what hopefully do you want in depth discuss about.

Which parts in the almost a hour and half discussion do you want to talk about?

The participants are all traveling on the same train but in different carriages (e.g. first class, carriage hallway, quiet carriage or the other carriage where one who doesn't want to be quiet sits in) Also some are traveling facing the direction of travel only, some are traveling backing the direction of travel only and some are traveling taking in the whole scenery ...

I think Tom was wary and wasn't explicit enough.

There were elements of cold feet without getting the feet wet or stepping into deep waters as it were by some of the other participants

Actually, what I am about is the question of Justification i.e. What was Paul really talking about? How did the Jews understand it, and how does it apply to us today? At the moment I am on the fence though I lean a little bit towards Tom however I am being careful not to be carried away by the lure of something novel. I will give it a careful study and discuss later but in the meantime, I would really appreciate your input. If you have some understanding of the subject, please share and perhaps it may help my understanding along a bit.

Cheers

P/s: How did you do the transcript?

Goshen360: @ Mr Anony2,

I follow up with our brother moredendisc. What do you want us to discuss on the subject of justification. I've listened to the debate.

I am on about the topic of Justification itself i.e. How is a christian justified before God? What I am most interested in is: What did Paul really mean? and how would the Early Christians who were reading him at the time have understood it? That I believe is the key to answering the question.

The transcript is difficult to read. And I can't watch the video because of the poor network where I am. But I'm interested in the discussion. Can anyone help me out with a summary of both arguments?

Ihedinobi:

The transcript is difficult to read. And I can't watch the video because of the poor network where I am.

But I'm interested in the discussion.

Can anyone help me out with a summary of both arguments?

@Ihedinobi

What was posted is not actually the whole transcript.

This was a hour and half discussion, and encourages the spam-bot to be on your case when attempting to paste the rest of the transcript

It wasn't arguments as such but presentation of views (e.g. Tom's James' etc), dodging views as in moving to one side or out of the presented view's way (e.g. Tom's), subtle passive aggressive views etc

I think the Justification matter was skirted a lot and without debating it well enough or conclusively

Tom was right, James was right too, however one was ahead in other matters, the third guy wasn't that comfortable with Tom's views and so was advocating caution

Still unclear

Mr_Anony2:

I am on about the topic of Justification itself i.e. How is a christian justified before God?

What I am most interested in is: What did Paul really mean? and how would the Early Christians who were reading him at the time have understood it?

That I believe is the key to answering the question.

@Mr_Anony2

That program claimed to be a program that gets one thinking

Understanding God as Just, is a precursor to understanding Justification and the intricacy(ies) around it

If you're game, we can chat using instant messenger or meet somewhere mutually convenient to chat over coffee/tea

ATMC:

Still unclear

@ATMC

I know it wouldn't be . . .

The transcripts is not fool proof

I can easily correct it but the spam-bot would not take kindly to pasting it here

Okay. We will begin digging this subject of Justification this week. Are y'all ready. I can see our brother moredendisc and Ihedinobi warming up with our sister ATMC, getting ready to jump in. Y'all welcome. First, we need to understand what justification means or is, then we can fly. Justification is NOT sanctification and NOT Glorification. All three are distinct one from the other. The question that then follow AFTER understand what each means is, how are we justified?

Justification is a legal declaration of being declared not guilty. It is a pronouncement of being cleared the guilt. When one is justified, he is declared right before the Lord; he is pardoned and cleared of any violation. It speaks of a declaration that gives us, Christians a right standing before God. It is a one time event involving an imputed righteousness of Christ in which we, although we are sinners, are pronounced "not guilty" of sin as in a court of law. We are cleared of any charges against us. Christ's sacrifice means he was punished in our place, satisfying the demands of the law, and God's justice upon sin.

New International Version (©1984)
Therefore, since we have been justifIED through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, - Romans 5:1

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Much more then, being now justifIED by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. - Romans 5:9

Sanctification on the other hand, is a continuous process that conforms us through the work of the Holy Spirit into the image of Christ whereby we separate ourselves unto Christ's service. Sanctification commences with our justification. Hence, the fruit of the Spirit is evidence in our sanctification.

New International Version (©1984)
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. - 2 thess. 2:13

Glorification. This is the completion of our Christian life on earth, at the end of the sanctification process and occurs when we get to Heaven. The completion of our Christian walk IN Christ is to be glorified, which is the end result of our salvation and it is future glory of the believer IN Christ.

New International Version (©1984)
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
New Living Translation (©2007)
And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory. - Romans 8:30

Goshen360:

Okay. We will begin digging this subject of Justification this week. Are y'all ready. I can see our brother moredendisc and Ihedinobi warming up with our sister ATMC, getting ready to jump in. Y'all welcome. First, we need to understand what justification means or is, then we can fly. Justification is NOT sanctification and NOT Glorification. All three are distinct one from the other. The question that then follow AFTER understand what each means is, how are we justified?

Justification is a legal declaration of being declared not guilty. It is a pronouncement of being cleared the guilt. When one is justified, he is declared right before the Lord; he is pardoned and cleared of any violation. It speaks of a declaration that gives us, Christians a right standing before God. It is a one time event involving an imputed righteousness of Christ in which we, although we are sinners, are pronounced "not guilty" of sin as in a court of law. We are cleared of any charges against us. Christ's sacrifice means he was punished in our place, satisfying the demands of the law, and God's justice upon sin.

New International Version (©1984)
Therefore, since we have been justifIED through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, - Romans 5:1

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Much more then, being now justifIED by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. - Romans 5:9

Sanctification on the other hand, is a continuous process that conforms us through the work of the Holy Spirit into the image of Christ whereby we separate ourselves unto Christ's service. Sanctification commences with our justification. Hence, the fruit of the Spirit is evidence in our sanctification.

New International Version (©1984)
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. - 2 thess. 2:13

Glorification. This is the completion of our Christian life on earth, at the end of the sanctification process and occurs when we get to Heaven. The completion of our Christian walk IN Christ is to be glorified, which is the end result of our salvation and it is future glory of the believer IN Christ.

New International Version (©1984)
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
New Living Translation (©2007)
And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory. - Romans 8:30

@Goshen360

My brother you are teacher . . .

Don't put the cart before the horse, so teach with explanations

How can you dive straight into Justification without tackling Justice or Just first

Just, this essence of God is a key ingredient to understanding Justification and all/any intricacies that surrounds it

Understanding justice or God's position as a Just God paves the way to appreciate the dynamics of Justification, the evolution, the process, the importance and the run of it

Why does one need to be declared right before the Lord? (i.e. be pardoned and cleared of any violation)

How did God go about making this a reality or go about making it possible?

If intending to guide the thought, then I believe this path should be thread first . . .

Goshen360: Okay. We will begin digging this subject of Justification this week. Are y'all ready. I can see our brother moredendisc and Ihedinobi warming up with our sister ATMC, getting ready to jump in. Y'all welcome. First, we need to understand what justification means or is, then we can fly. Justification is NOT sanctification and NOT Glorification. All three are distinct one from the other. The question that then follow AFTER understand what each means is, how are we justified?

Justification is a legal declaration of being declared not guilty. It is a pronouncement of being cleared the guilt. When one is justified, he is declared right before the Lord; he is pardoned and cleared of any violation. It speaks of a declaration that gives us, Christians a right standing before God. It is a one time event involving an imputed righteousness of Christ in which we, although we are sinners, are pronounced "not guilty" of sin as in a court of law. We are cleared of any charges against us. Christ's sacrifice means he was punished in our place, satisfying the demands of the law, and God's justice upon sin.

New International Version (©1984)
Therefore, since we have been justifIED through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, - Romans 5:1

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Much more then, being now justifIED by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. - Romans 5:9

Sanctification on the other hand, is a continuous process that conforms us through the work of the Holy Spirit into the image of Christ whereby we separate ourselves unto Christ's service. Sanctification commences with our justification. Hence, the fruit of the Spirit is evidence in our sanctification.

New International Version (©1984)
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. - 2 thess. 2:13
Glorification. This is the completion of our Christian life on earth, at the end of the sanctification process and occurs when we get to Heaven. The completion of our Christian walk IN Christ is to be glorified, which is the end result of our salvation and it is future glory of the believer IN Christ.

New International Version (©1984)
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
New Living Translation (©2007)
And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory. - Romans 8:30

while i love your exposition, i'll asked from what passage did u deduce that u are justified once and for all.
Correct me if i misunderstood your position.

moredendisc:

@Goshen360

My brother you are teacher . . .

Don't put the cart before the horse, so teach with explanations

How can you dive straight into Justification without tackling Justice or Just first

Just, this essence of God is a key ingredient to understanding Justification and all/any intricacies that surrounds it

Understanding justice or God's position as a Just God paves the way to appreciate the dynamics of Justification, the evolution, the process, the importance and the run of it

Why does one need to be declared right before the Lord? (i.e. be pardoned and cleared of any violation)

How did God go about making this a reality or go about making it possible?

If intending to guide the thought, then I believe this path should be thread first . . .

i good part, but very long.

moredendisc:

@Mr_Anony2

Thanks a lot.

moredendisc:


@Mr_Anony2

That program claimed to be a program that gets one thinking

Understanding God as Just, is a precursor to understanding Justification and the intricacy(ies) around it

If you're game, we can chat using instant messenger or meet somewhere mutually convenient to chat over coffee/tea

I'm game. Do you live near Oxford by any chance?

Ihedinobi: The transcript is difficult to read. And I can't watch the video because of the poor network where I am. But I'm interested in the discussion. Can anyone help me out with a summary of both arguments?

Bros na hardwork you wan give person be that

Mr_Anony2:

Thanks a lot.

I'm game. Do you live near Oxford by any chance?

@Mr_Anony2

Hi.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, an authenticating question for me to reply back with

I'll follow up with the answer and we can then take it from there. Yeah?

Mr_Anony2:
Bros na hardwork you wan give person be that

Lol. Sorry. i'll play it by ear, don't you worry.

Mr_Anony2:

Thanks a lot.

I'm game. Do you live near Oxford by any chance?

@Mr_Anony2

Thank you and I am just about replying back. One moment please

Ubenedictus: while i love your exposition, i'll asked from what passage did u deduce that u are justified once and for all.
Correct me if i misunderstood your position.

Thank God you quoted me. I never said it is once and for all. I said, it is a one time event that happened when a man is saved in obedience to the gospel of Christ. However, it is dangerous also to teach the one and for all stuff or abusing the Grace of God that comes from the privilege of justification. There's also justification as past and present guilt provided we DO NOT CONTINUE IN SUCH OR SAME SIN thinking the Grace is available.

@moredendisc, Whatz up son (of God)! No mind me joor. You know say sometimes, teacher head dey too full so he no go know wetin to pour out anymore Whatever I miss, kindly contribute my brother and we shall have fellowship with one another.

And why is Gosh more interested in talking about tithe and attacking preachers than this more important issue?

Image123: And why is Gosh more interested in talking about tithe and attacking preachers than this more important issue?

because the Tithe is a lie that brings God's children under the yoke of slavery and is a FRAUD !!

frosbel:

because the Tithe is a lie that brings God's children under the yoke of slavery and is a FRAUD !!

you're now his spokesperson?

Goshen360:
Thank God you quoted me. I never said it is once and for all. I said, it is a one time event that happened when a man is saved in obedience to the gospel of Christ. However, it is dangerous also to teach the one and for all stuff or abusing the Grace of God that comes from the privilege of justification. There's also justification as past and present guilt provided we DO NOT CONTINUE IN SUCH OR SAME SIN thinking the Grace is available.

sorry if i misunderstood, i equate one time event to once and for all (sincerely i can hardly see the difference btw d two statement, but i'll give d benefit of d doubt).

frosbel:

because the Tithe is a lie that brings God's children under the yoke of slavery and is a FRAUD !!

hehe, oga frosbel really passionate. I really think this issue isn't given the attention it deserves, anony and goshen really have questions to answer.

9Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with mena 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11[b]And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God[/b]. 1 Corinthians 6 >>
New International Version

From the above scriptures, we find the origin and source of our sanctification. This is where it first begins, with our justification of one being cleared of guilt. You will never find justification as a process. It is always depicted as a one-time event. Rom. 5:1 says, "Therefore having been justified by faith...". We read here that it is a past event. It is sanctification that is ongoing process of the image of Christ being formed in the believer that is an on going event until one is taken home to be with the Lord. Paul writes in Romans 4 and relates it to Gen. 15, that Abraham was justified 19 years before the event of his obedience to sacrifice his son. Nowhere are works applied to Abraham's grounds of justification before God.

20How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless? 21Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. 23And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”g He was even called the friend of God.h 24So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone. James 2 >> New Living Translation

In what sense was he justified since he was already pronounced right before God years prior to this? James is saying, in contrast to Paul, that God was able to see that Abraham was righteous already, but until Abraham lifted his knife over Isaac in obedience, only God knew his righteousness. One event occurred before God who alone knows our hearts - faith or believe; and the other (works or action) is before man who can only perceive the outward actions. In other words, our faith is invisible and can only be expressed outwardly by our works. This is the point that James is trying to emphasize, we show our faith by our deeds to our fellow man.

Our works justify the believer in the demonstrative sense, not in the procurative sense, meaning good works are not the grounds for our legal justification before God. They justify us before the eyes of man, demonstrating what is alive on the inside. When James says faith without works is dead, he is warning against a "words only" intellectual ascent to faith. James is not speaking about the theological aspect of justification before God, but the practical aspect before man. God alone looks at the heart but by works man is justified before other men, who can only look at the outward appearance.

Paul and James are discussing two different concerns. Looking more carefully this so-called tension is resolved. Paul discusses theologically how a sinner is considered righteous before God. James is concerned with what kind of faith results in salvation, since he is addressing a particular problem that has arisen in the Jerusalem church. If one has no works springing out of their confession of belief of his faith, is this true faith? Can it be saving faith? Works wrought in Christ flow from a living source - faith in Christ and his finished works. We are not doing good works to be created in Christ, which is what this would be if justification is an ongoing process related to one's deeds.

We are doing good works because we are already "in Christ". We are new creations, so what follows is the fruit of the Spirit occurring sometime in a Christian's life. One's works declare and manifest outwardly the reality of faith which is not visible to man. The fruit that a tree bears shows it is alive, healthy and productive. The fruit of a tree is not what makes a tree alive. Spiritually, faith is alive first, then proceeds the good works, showing what is invisible on the inside, outwardly.

to be continue