4They said, “Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY.” 5But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6“But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
Mark 10:5


“When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,
Deuteronomy 24:1

According to Jesus Moses wrote laws that were not issued from God but rather were a compromise to the recalcitrant disposition of the Israelites. Yet these laws are part of our God given biblical laws, according to some bibliolaters.
How much of the OT is a directive from God and how much is Moses' own tinkering?

^^^ They found traces of blood in his alcohol stream.

@Pastor AIO:

I don't see this as any problem though. In as much as Moses does not say of a particular directive that "God said" do so and so, then it is safe to assume that as their leader and spiritual head he can instruct them on how to conduct their social and religious affairs. In some cases he tells them "Thus says the Lord". In the transfer of God's directives, Moses' humanity would have interacted with the information. The laws and scriptures are inspired by God, and not declared to have been a literal regurgitation of God's exact words.

InesQor: @Pastor AIO:

I don't see this as any problem though. In as much as Moses does not say of a particular directive that "God said" do so and so, then it is safe to assume that as their leader and spiritual head he can instruct them on how to conduct their social and religious affairs. In some cases he tells them "Thus says the Lord". In the transfer of God's directives, Moses' humanity would have interacted with the information. The laws and scriptures are inspired by God, and not declared to have been a literal regurgitation of God's exact words.

I hope you know you are acknowledging that according to Human understanding not divine....Moses made Laws that many Christians break their heads over today no?

mkmyers45:

I hope you know you are acknowledging that according to Human understanding not divine....Moses made Laws that many Christians break their heads over today no?

Actually Christians don't break their heads over the Old Testament laws. Instead, Christ told us that Love is the only Law. And that's our watchword.

InesQor:

Actually Christians i don't break their heads over the Old Testament laws. Instead, Christ told us that Love is the only Law. And that's our watchword.

Fixed

I am too sure you know why i edited your above comment.

If you do insist, can i then assume that the laws & commandments of the old testaments are useless due to one new law?

Pastor AIO: 4They said, “Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY.” 5But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6“But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
Mark 10:5


“When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,
Deuteronomy 24:1

According to Jesus Moses wrote laws that were not issued from God but rather were a compromise to the recalcitrant disposition of the Israelites. Yet these laws are part of our God given biblical laws, according to some bibliolaters.
How much of the OT is a directive from God and how much is Moses' own tinkering?

Infact ehn... we need to also extend this question to the NT... how much of Paul's directives/commands to the early church are from God and how much were his own personal judgement?

InesQor: @Pastor AIO:

I don't see this as any problem though. In as much as Moses does not say of a particular directive that "God said" do so and so, then it is safe to assume that as their leader and spiritual head he can instruct them on how to conduct their social and religious affairs. In some cases he tells them "Thus says the Lord". In the transfer of God's directives, Moses' humanity would have interacted with the information. The laws and scriptures are inspired by God, and not declared to have been a literal regurgitation of God's exact words.

I wouldn't also classify it as a "problem" per se...but rather the acknowldgement of room for the personal interjections of scripture authors should inform how we read, interpret and apply scripture to our lives.

Okay....following. Make I go sleep small first. I'll be right back.

JeSoul: I wouldn't also classify it as a "problem" per se...but rather the acknowldgement of room for the personal interjections of scripture authors should inform how we read, interpret and apply scripture to our lives.

Funny, because I remember in my youth fellowship back then, the leader would say 'the Holy Spirit told me' in order to convince us to accept some of personal assertions regarding dressing and code of conduct in the fellowship. Wouldn't it be possible that Moses and indeed some of the other writers of the Bible were guilty of this?

Interesting thread anyways. Not a Xtian, but hopefully I could learn a few things...

JeSoul: I wouldn't also classify it as a "problem" per se...but rather the acknowldgement of room for the personal interjections of scripture authors should inform how we read, interpret and apply scripture to our lives.

+1

Exactly! Such acknowledgement should inform how we read, interpret and apply scripture to our lives. I doubt I could have said it better.

mkmyers45:

Fixed

I am too sure you know why i edited your above comment.

If you do insist, can i then assume that the laws & commandments of the old testaments are useless due to one new law?

Not useless. More like entailed. If love is factored in, all the commandments will be accounted for.

InesQor:

Not useless. More like entailed. If love is factored in, all the commandments will be accounted for.

So how does love pertain to an individuals apparent choice of sexuality?

mkmyers45:

So how does love pertain to an individuals apparent choice of sexuality?

You love them, even if you do not accept their lifestyle (which is not even really your business, come to think of it).

InesQor:

You love them, even if you do not accept their lifestyle (which is not even really your business, come to think of it).

I am talking in relation to its justification...Love is the law right?

How does love being the law justify one to put away his wife, be gay, have an abortion etc (due to the law and not moses's disernment

mkmyers45:

I am talking in relation to its justification...Love is the law right?

How does love being the law justify one to put away his wife, be gay, have an abortion etc (due to the law and not moses's disernment)

Not sure what your point is, exactly. You can't talk about love being the law in the days of Moses and his discernment because that was a different dispensation. Since the days of Christ, love has been the law, summarily. He illustrated this with the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Love is a summariser of the laws in that it dictates how you receive others in God's name. You are, as it were, a physical regent allowing the expression of an intangible God to show forth through you.

Your intentions are what matter in your experiences, and it's Love that controls your intentions.

As per examples you gave, Christ said divorce is not appropriate, but it was because of the hardness of their hearts (read as, opposite of love). I once read that it was common practice to find fault with a woman and divorce her just so you can legally get another woman. My views are a bit controversial on being gay and/or having an abortion (elements of so-called public faith). Nonetheless I feel like Christians place too much emphasis on public/communal faith at the expense of private/personal faith. As for being gay, I won't claim to understand people's reasons (if they have any), but it my duty as a Christian to love them anyway and not deny them of any of their rights because of their sexual orientation. As for abortions, I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer. I consider it on a case-by-case basis, and even then at most I can only offer advice and not discriminate against the person's hard decisions. The final decision lies with the prospective mother, our duty is to love (including support) one another.

I once discussed Christianity beyond Private Faith here https://www.nairaland.com/984483/christianity-beyond-private-faith-personal so my views on such as these are there-present.

@All,
You err when you claim that Paul or Moses simply imposed their personal opinions as laws to the isrealites/christians. These directives may not have been made as express transfers of commandments from god to the people but Paul and Moses being anointed, vested with the principles/spirit of God had authority to apply such principles to whatever situation that calls for attention.To say that it was their personal opinions is either misunderstanding or perverting scripture. So according to the principle of The Law, divorce is permitted though not perfect. Likewise according to principle of christianity: marriage is permitted, though not perfect. Provisions are made(according to principle) to cater for all permissble levels of adherences to commandments, whether of the law or of christianity.

okeyxyz: @All,
You err when you claim that Paul or Moses simply imposed their personal opinions as laws to the isrealites/christians. These directives may not have been made as express transfers of commandments from god to the people but Paul and Moses being anointed, vested with the principles/spirit of God had authority to apply such principles to whatever situation that calls for attention.To say that it was their personal opinions is either misunderstanding or perverting scripture. So according to the principle of The Law, divorce is permitted though not perfect. Likewise according to principle of christianity: marriage is permitted, though not perfect. Provisions are made(according to principle) to cater for all permissble levels of adherences to commandments, whether of the law or of christianity.

I do not fully understand what you're saying above.

If you mean what I think you might mean in the bolded part above then I ask, Is not the church anointed too? There have being many developments in the church since the first century CE, yet these are often subjected to criticisms from rival factions of christianity with a vehemence that is spared Moses and Paul.

^^^
Ok, I can see how the words anointing\spirit can be misleading here. People tend to interpret these words as "miraculous force".

But my point is that anybody with a perfect(I mean matured, not babes) understanding of the knowledge and principles of law\christianity can apply these principles to every situation that he encounters and he would be absolutely justified in his judgements. When you guys insists that every directive must be expressly stated in scripture(of over 2000 years), with detailed pointers to every unimaginable human endeavor, even ones that has not been invented yet, then you guys are simply walking "by the letter" instead of "by the spirit". You demonstrate that you don't yet understand christianity or the Law as a principle but as a list of directives, written in scripture without an understanding of the reasons/principles upon which such directives are based. So my point still stands: that it is a huge error and lack of understanding that leads people to assert that Moses and Paul simply made directives according to their own personal leanings\sentiments, rather than according to mandate and authority from god.

But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one(1 Corinthians 2:15 )

"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."(John 3:8 )

Now the spirit is very flexible; knowing that everybody will not have the same degree of understanding and devotion, therefore it accommodates and rewards everyman according to his input in practice of faith and love. To say that one's beliefs and practices is unchristian or un-LAW-ful because it dosen't measure up to the "ultimate" directive is absolute error. God gives his laws\spirit in it's pure form but it's left to the person to apply and follow according to the extent of his understanding and sentiments. Thus Jesus words:

5 But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6“But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.(Mark 10:5 )

So It may not be perfect; does not mean it is unLAWful or unchristian.

Pastor AIO:

I do not fully understand what you're saying above.

If you mean what I think you might mean in the bolded part above then I ask, Is not the church anointed too? There have being many developments in the church since the first century CE, yet these are often subjected to criticisms from rival factions of christianity with a vehemence that is spared Moses and Paul.

^^^
Which "church anointed" to do what?

The NT was basically written by christ apostles.

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1 Thessalonians 2:13).
.......................

The "church", are they AMONG THE "US"(APOSTLES) OF CHRIST ?

Who are the "us":

"But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast "us" into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out." (Acts 16:37).
............

So, this ^ "us" wrote the NT, where does the "church" comes in?

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1 Thessalonians 2:13).
.......................



The OT was written by prophets of Yahweh judges, anointed kings, levites. (All Jews)

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy spirit." (2 Peter 1:20-21).
..................

So, i still wish to ask:
This "the church" are they Jews?

John4:22

"you worship what you do not know, we worship what we know, salvation originate with the Jews".

InesQor: @Pastor AIO:

I don't see this as any problem though. In as much as Moses does not say of a particular directive that "God said" do so and so, then it is safe to assume that as their leader and spiritual head he can instruct them on how to conduct their social and religious affairs. In some cases he tells them "Thus says the Lord". In the transfer of God's directives, Moses' humanity would have interacted with the information. The laws and scriptures are inspired by God, and not declared to have been a literal regurgitation of God's exact words.

So who is lying here?

NIV:
1 Samuel 15.
1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord.
2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

If they weren't God's actual words, why didn't he bother to correct them? He must have known that those of us who would live milenia later will see that as him being an Evil God?

My question to put it simply is "where is the correction to the Bible"? After all, if these were mere misrepresentations, then what else in the Bible was misrepresented? Could the creation be a misrepresentation? Could Jonah and the big fish? Balaam and his donkey, homosexuality, slavery, Noah's ark and those other stories and commands have been misrepresentations?

thehomer:

So who is lying here?

I think the lying bit are you and your type that are bend from inside out.

you red that the Amalikite attacked the people of Yahweh (Israel) unprovoked killing women, children, animal on their way out of Egypt and you see nothing wrong with it.

The Worshpers of satan killing the people of yahweh is ok with you, why?

Are you blind not to see that the Amalikite were evil?

thehomer:
If they weren't God's actual words,

this were men led by the spirit of God, they are note like you with a poor sense of judgement. Rationality shows consideration when it does not break God's stated commandment or instructions.
Not your type that is crooked in almost every front.

thehomer:
why didn't he bother to correct them?

what nonsense! Correct what?
The law is life for life (soul for soul)

if the Amalikite killed men, women, children, animal(livestocks) of the Israelite on their way out of egypt to the promise land, so shall it be to them. = justice.

Are you blind?

Crooked humans like YOU are so blind to see that what the Amalikite did under the coaching of their God(satan) was bad.

thehomer:
He must have known that those of us who would live milenia later will see that as him being an Evil God?

Which "of us" are you talking about?
Blind kind/type like you?

Am i not living in this melanie? Rubbish!

Your blind type that dont know what is bad or evil are not a yerdstick to use as a reference
to judge yahweh, you are only exposing your ignorance.

Thinks you support and dont know it is a destructive tendency to the human person is an indication of your sense of Justice being crooked.

Every apotunity you lot have is to twist the bible to suit your twisted minds.

Smh.

thehomer:

My question to put it simply is "where is the correction to the Bible"?

how can a blind man correct the bible?

You that cannot see or know what is good or bad?

*sigh* keep deceiving your self.

Trying to bend the bible to suite your corrupt life style abi?

thehomer:
After all, if these were mere misrepresentations, then what else in the Bible was misrepresented?

misrepresent? By who? People limitations has nothing to do with the bible.

thehomer:
slavery, Noah's ark and Could the creation be a misrepresentation? Could Jonah and the big fish? Balaam and his donkey,

guy, are you high on Jamaican vegetable? Lol.

Who sent you. With your blindness, how can you understand spirituality or spiritual things?

Ok, if you understand anything, tell me what sustain your life as you are there?
Ah! No answer! I know, You will blank out, how then can you step into the unknown realm of spiritual matters?

(1 Corinthians 2:13-14).
"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:13-14).
.........................................
Water has it level, but you dont know your level it seems.

thehomer:
homosexuality,

Ah! Now you have spoken the only kind of thing your type knows, unnatural immorality.

Why did you not go straight to the point instead of going round and round and beating about the bushes?

It is in your blood and it has eaten too dip into you, just leave the bible out of it.
Cant you just continue your ar.se fucking life and leave the bible alone?

thehomer:
those other stories and commands have been misrepresentations?

No they have not and they are not.

Says who by the way?

Your type will not understand, just as you dont understand how you happened to be alive now, or can you? No.

Leave the bible alone since you cant understand spiritual things, my advice to you all.
Peace.

Conclusion of the matter:

Whether it's Moses' words or a direct command from God, as long as it is contained (cannonised) in the Holy Scriptures, it is the word of God. These men are oracles of God and their words (contained in Scriptures) are treated as the voice of God. No one has such authority again as the cannon as been closed.

2Peter 1
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


2Timothy 3

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Hebrws 1

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


As per the issue of divorce, Jesus already clarified the matter. He already explained why Moses permitted divorce - cos of the hardness of their heart, their unrepentant and unforgiving heart that can only lead to eternal damnation. If they truly loved God, they would have known that divorce isn't an option for them.

Tgirl4real: Conclusion of the matter:

Whether it's Moses' words or a direct command from God, as long as it is contained (cannonised) in the Holy Scriptures, it is the word of God. These men are oracles of God and their words (contained in Scriptures) are treated as the voice of God. No one has such authority again as the cannon as been closed.

2Peter 1
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


2Timothy 3

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Hebrws 1

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


As per the issue of divorce, Jesus already clarified the matter. He already explained why Moses permitted divorce - cos of the hardness of their heart, their unrepentant and unforgiving heart that can only lead to eternal damnation. If they truly loved God, they would have known that divorce isn't an option for them.

It might edify you to read this post: https://www.nairaland.com/1795370/how-does-translation-process-impact/2#25062560

[quote author=Tgirl4real]Conclusion of the matter:

Whether it's Moses' words or a direct command from God, as long as it is contained (cannonised) in the Holy Scriptures, it is the word of God. These men are oracles of God and their words (contained in Scriptures) are treated as the voice of God. No one has such authority again as the cannon as been closed.

That's being dogmatic sister and the bolded is not true.

PastorAIO:

I do not fully understand what you're saying above.

If you mean what I think you might mean in the bolded part above then I ask, Is not the church anointed too? There have being many developments in the church since the first century CE, yet these are often subjected to criticisms from rival factions of christianity with a vehemence that is spared Moses and Paul.

the big elephant in the living room.

PastorAIO: 4They said, “Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY.” 5But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6“But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
Mark 10:5


“When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,
Deuteronomy 24:1

According to Jesus Moses wrote laws that were not issued from God but rather were a compromise to the recalcitrant disposition of the Israelites. Yet these laws are part of our God given biblical laws, according to some bibliolaters.
How much of the OT is a directive from God and how much is Moses' own tinkering?

hehehe,

i think most of the customs in the torah were mainly that.
Do not use two fabric, if you kill your slave you shouldn't be punished, bla bla bla.

I think the idea was to form a pattern for the isrealites.


Anyway, that is just my rant for now, i'll think later and write.

[quote author=frosbel][/quote]

What makes it untrue?

PastorAIO:

It might edify you to read this post: https://www.nairaland.com/1795370/how-does-translation-process-impact/2#25062560

Hello Sir, I read the post you linked to. I will investigate. But on the matter you brought up, scriptures already explain itself.

Without a doubt I have a beef against 'bible based' christianity.

In fact I have a beef against any religion that is based on any text.

Then when that text is blatantly obviously written by men and even within the text there is an admission from the highest authority in the religion (Jesus in christianity) that a part of the text was written by a human precisely as a compromise for human recalcitrance I am left flabbergasted that people still walk around claiming that the text is the basis of their religion and that it was given directly by God. What Nonsense!

Followed thread, wetin happen. Anyway, for the love of God, where is JeSoul. Nostalgia. People don dey this forum sha.