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I Need Answers From Muslims by Nobody: 9:38am On May 08, 2013
Why did Muhammed divorce his wife Sawdah bint Zam'ah? I read some info on a certain site that said he divorced her because of her old age and because she was no longer attractive but I doubt that it is the truth considering the fact that Muhammed was a very upright man with exemplary character and could never send a wife away for such a superficial and shallow reason.
Therefore, I have come to present this question to the Muslims; why did prophet Muhammed (pbuh) divorce sawdah bint zam'ah?
This is a reference from Islamic sources about the matter;

The late Sunni scholar Ibn Kathir wrote on his Tafsir of Quran 4:128;
Making peace is better than seperation. An example of such peace can be felt in the story of Sawdah bint Zam'ah who when she became old and aged, the prophet wanted to divorce her, but she made peace with him by offering the night he used to spend with her to Aisha so that he would keep her.
The prophet accepted such terms and kept her.

Did prophet Muhammed divorce sawdah because of her old age? Thank you. May Allah reward you all for answering my question.
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by AbdH: 11:06am On May 08, 2013
NL member: Why did Muhammed divorce his wife Sawdah bint Zam'ah? I read some info on a certain site that said he divorced her because of her old age and because she was no longer attractive but I doubt that it is the truth considering the fact that Muhammed was a very upright man with exemplary character and could never send a wife away for such a superficial and shallow reason.
Therefore, I have come to present this question to the Muslims; why did prophet Muhammed (pbuh) divorce sawdah bint zam'ah?
This is a reference from Islamic sources about the matter;

The late Sunni scholar Ibn Kathir wrote on his Tafsir of Quran 4:128;
Making peace is better than seperation. An example of such peace can be felt in the story of Sawdah bint Zam'ah who when she became old and aged, the prophet wanted to divorce her, but she made peace with him by offering the night he used to spend with her to Aisha so that he would keep her.
The prophet accepted such terms and kept her.

Did prophet Muhammed divorce sawdah because of her old age? Thank you. May Allah reward you all for answering my question.
Is their an Islamic reference for this info? This is the first time I am seeing this.
Moreover, the first page on google that contains websites on Islam are anti-Islamic websites, hope you know that.
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by Nobody: 4:03pm On May 08, 2013
AbdH:
Is their an Islamic reference for this info? This is the first time I am seeing this.
Moreover, the first page on google that contains websites on Islam are anti-Islamic websites, hope you know that.

Asalamalaikum AbdH
Yes, my brother.
There are indeed Islamic sources for this info.

The verse in the Quran 2:128;
128. And if a woman fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no sin on them both if they make terms of peace between themselves; and making peace is better. And human souls are swayed by greed. But if you do good and have Taqwa, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do.)

was revealed about that issue as we find in tafsir ibn kathir.

Allah states, and thus legislates accordingly, that sometimes, the man inclines away from his wife, sometimes towards her and sometimes he parts with her. In the first case, when the wife fears that her husband is steering away from her or deserting her, she is allowed to forfeit all or part of her rights, such as provisions, clothing, dwelling, and so forth, and the husband is allowed to accept such concessions from her. Hence, there is no harm if she offers such concessions, and if her husband accepts them. This is why Allah said,

﴿فَلاَ جُنَاْحَ عَلَيْهِمَآ أَن يُصْلِحَا بَيْنَهُمَا صُلْحاً﴾

(there is no sin on them both if they make terms of peace between themselveswink He then said,

﴿وَالصُّلْحُ خَيْرٌ﴾

(and making peace is better) than divorce. Allah's statement,

﴿وَأُحْضِرَتِ الأنفُسُ الشُّحَّ﴾

(And human souls are swayed by greed.) means, coming to peaceful terms, even when it involves forfeiting some rights, is better than parting. Abu Dawud At-Tayalisi recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Sawdah feared that the Messenger of Allah might divorce her and she said, `O Messenger of Allah! Do not divorce me; give my day to `A'ishah.' And he did, and later on Allah sent down quran 4 verse 128


SOURCE = http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=599&Itemid=59

Other hadith on the matter:
Narrated Aisha:
Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to go on a journey, he would draw lots as to which of his wives would accompany him. He would take her whose name came out. He used to fix for each of them a day and a night. But Sauda bint Zam’a gave up her (turn) day and night to ‘Aisha, the wife of the Prophet in order to seek the pleasure of Allah's Apostle (by that action). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 47, Number 766)

‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Never did I find any woman more loving to me than Sauda bint Zam'a. I wished I could be exactly like her who was passionate. As she became old, she had made over her day (which she had to spend) with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to ‘A’isha. She said: I have made over my day with you to ‘A’isha. So Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) allotted two days to ‘A’isha, her own day (when it was her turn) and that of Sauda. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3451).


So I want to know if there is another side of the story to this incidence or if Muhammed (pbuh) actually divorced his wife because she was no longer attractive to him.
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by tbaba1234: 5:16pm On May 08, 2013
i. The messenger never divorced any wife. That is false.

ii. There is no evidence to say that the messenger wanted to divorce her because of age... She is one of the mothers of the believers.

There is some information about Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) wanting to divorce Sawda. However, the reason for this is not that she was old or behaved slowly.

In As-Siratu'n-Nabawiya by Ibn Hisham, one of the most important sources of the history of Islam, there are some narrations apart from those above. According to this book, some time after the marriage, Sawda caused some delay in the Prophet's relations with his daughters. Again in the same source, the event in which the Prophet decides to divorce Sawda is also mentioned. It is narrated that when Sawda sees Suhayl b. Amr, the brother of her deceased husband, among the prisoners of Badr War with his hands tied, she said: “O Aba Yazid! How did you surrender? Could you not die with your honor?” When the Prophet heard this, he said: “Sawda! Do you oppose Allah and His Messenger?” Sawda replied: “O Messenger of Allah! I swear to Allah Who has sent you as the rightful Prophet that I could not help saying this when I saw Abu Yazid like that.” Thereupon, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) intended to divorce Sawda, but she pleaded: “O Prophet, do not divorce me! Keep me in your wedlock; show me mercy! Do not let me drift into oblivion!” Then the Prophet accepted her wish. Islamic sources are of the same opinion that after this event, their marriage continued without any problem.
In short, Sawda is a lady who alleviated the sadness of the Prophet upon Khadija's death, who did the housework, who fulfilled the duty of motherhood for six children and most importantly who earned the title 'the mother of the believers'.

Read more here: http://www.questionsonislam.com/question/it-true-our-prophet-offered-divorce-his-wife-hazrath-sawda
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by AbdH: 5:37pm On May 08, 2013
@op
tbaba1234: i. The messenger never divorced any wife. That is false.
That one I know and besides everything the op posted doesn't point to an eventual divorce and you don't see such assertions in Islamic texts except anti-Islamic.
tbaba1234 has answered everything anyway.
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by Nobody: 6:31pm On May 08, 2013
tbaba1234: i. The messenger never divorced any wife. That is false.
ii. There is no evidence to say that the messenger wanted to divorce her because of age... She is one of the mothers of the believers.
There is some information about Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) wanting to divorce Sawda. However, the reason for this is not that she was old or behaved slowly.
In As-Siratu'n-Nabawiya by Ibn Hisham, one of the most important sources of the history of Islam, there are some narrations apart from those above. According to this book, some time after the marriage, Sawda caused some delay in the Prophet's relations with his daughters.

Thank you for answering tbaba.
Please how did Sawda cause a delay in the Prophet's relations with his daughters?

Again in the same source, the event in which the Prophet decides to divorce Sawda is also mentioned. It is narrated that when Sawda sees Suhayl b. Amr, the brother of her deceased husband, among the prisoners of Badr War with his hands tied, she said: “O Aba Yazid! How did you surrender? Could you not die with your honor?” When the Prophet heard this, he said: “Sawda! Do you oppose Allah and His Messenger?” Sawda replied: “O Messenger of Allah! I swear to Allah Who has sent you as the rightful Prophet that I could not help saying this when I saw Abu Yazid like that.” Thereupon, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) intended to divorce Sawda, but she pleaded: “O Prophet, do not divorce me! Keep me in your wedlock; show me mercy! Do not let me drift into oblivion!” Then the Prophet accepted her wish.

Ok. The prophet accepted her wish and didn't divorce her but did they continue to have conjugal relations after that? Did she give up her days and nights to Aisha till the prophet died?
Islamic sources are of the same opinion that after this event, their marriage continued without any problem.
What islamic sources are those? I posted a hadith that mentioned that the Sawdah gave up her rights to intimacy just to stay married to the Prophet. Is a situation like that problem free? Is it taken to be problem free when the wife no longer receives sexua.l gratification from the husband all her life?

In short, Sawda is a lady who alleviated the sadness of the Prophet upon Khadija's death, who did the housework, who fulfilled the duty of motherhood for six children
Agreed, so why couldn't Rasullulah just forgive her for the wrong statement she uttered instead of depriving her of s3x for the rest of her life?
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by Nobody: 7:17pm On May 08, 2013
Besides there are hadith that say Sawdah was divorced by Muhammed(pbuh) because of her old age.

‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Never did I find any woman more loving to me than Sauda bint Zam'a. I wished I could be exactly like her who was passionate. [size=15pt]As she became old[/size], she had made over her day (which she had to spend) with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to ‘A’isha. She said: I have made over my day with you to ‘A’isha. So Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) allotted two days to ‘A’isha, her own day (when it was her turn) and that of Sauda. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3451)


... When Sauda daughter of Zam'ah [size=15pt]BECAME OLD AND FEARED THAT THE APOSTLE OF ALLAH (may peace be upon him) WOULD DIVORCE HER,[/size] she said: Apostle of Allah, I give to 'A'ishah the day you visit me. The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) accepted it from her. Sunan Abu Dawud


So which is more accurate? Was she offering up her nights because the prophet wanted to divorce her for her old age or was she offering up her nights because she said some thing wrong to her husband's brother?
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by tbaba1234: 7:29pm On May 08, 2013
SubhanAllah, what kinds of questions are these? what have you been reading?

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 3, Book 47, Number 766:

Narrated Aisha:

Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to go on a journey, he would draw lots as to which of his wives would accompany him. He would take her whose name came out. He used to fix for each of them a day and a night. But Sauda bint Zam'a gave up her (turn) day and night to 'Aisha, the wife of the Prophet in order to seek the pleasure of Allah's Apostle (by that action).

Volume 3, Book 48, Number 853:

Narrated Aisha:

Whenever Allah's Apostle intended to go on a journey, he used to draw lots among his wives and would take with him the one on whom the lot fell. He also used to fix for everyone of his wives a day and a night, but Sauda bint Zam'a gave her day and night to 'Aisha, the wife of the Prophet intending thereby to please Allah's Apostle.

Sahih Muslim

Book 008, Number 3451:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Never did I find any woman more loving to me than Sauda bint Zam'a. I wished I could be exactly like her who was passionate. As she became old, she had made over her day (which she had to spend) with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to 'A'isha. She said: I have made over my day with you to 'A'isha. So Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) allotted two days to 'A'isha, her own day (when it was her turn) and that of Sauda.

The reason why Sauda gave up her day to the Prophet was because of her old age she thought that the Prophet would not be interested in her anymore and that he would divorce her. Therefore, in order to remain the Prophet's wife and to please him she gave up her day and night to Aisha.

First thing to note is that there is no evidence that the Prophet (PBUH) ever intended to divorce Sauda.

The missionaries cite this as a proof...

Some reports say that Mohammad did actually divorce Sauda but she negotiated a settlement with him which he accepted.

Al-Qasim ibn Abi Beza said the prophet sent to Sauda a message divorcing her. So she waited for the prophet on his way to ‘Aisha. When she saw him she said I implore you by Him who revealed His words to you and chose you above all his creation why did you divorce me. I have become old and have no need of men but I wish to be resurrected amongst your wives in the last day. So he changed his mind and she said I have given my day and night to [‘Aisha] the prophet’s beloved... (See Ibn Kathir on Q. 4:128)

However, Ibn Kathir says at the end of the narration...

Source: http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=4&nAya=128

And this is mursal ghareeb.

That means that the hadith is a mursal and ghareeb hadith.

What does that mean?

mursal or "unattached" hadeeth is one that contains a gap of one generation (according to both Azami and Hasan it is a hadeeth reported by a Successor who drops the Companion from whom he learned it in the isnad).

among them ghareeb ("scarce" or "strange"wink,

Source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/historyandhadeeth/azzamcomparison.html

So you can't use a hadith that has a gap in it and is scarce to prove a point.

Plus the Prophet would not have divorced her just because she became old and was not attractive anymore. Sauda was not even attractive in the first place...

Sahih Bukhari



Volume 2, Book 26, Number 740:

Narrated 'Aisha :

Sauda asked the permission of the Prophet to leave earlier at the night of Jam', and she was a fat and very slow woman. The Prophet gave her permission.

Sahih Muslim



Book 007, Number 2958:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Sauda (the wife of the Holy Prophet) who was bulky sought the permission of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the night of Muzdalifa to move from (that place) ahead of him and before the multitude (set forth). He (Allah's Apostle) gave her the permission. So she set forth before his (Holy Prophet's) departure. But we stayed there until it was dawn and we moved on, when he departed. And if I were to seek the permission of Allah's Messenger. (may peace be upon him) as Sauda had sought permission, I could have also gone with his permission and it would have been better for me than that for which I was happy.

Ibn Kathir says...

There was great surprise in Mecca that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) would choose to marry a widow who was neither young nor beautiful. (Ibn Kathir, Wives of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), Source)

It was a habit of the wives of the Prophet to give up their days in order to try and satisfy the Prophet. Here is an example...

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) was, once, angry with Safiyyah and so Safiyyah went to Aisha and said to her, "Could you make the Prophet (peace be upon him) forgive me and I would give up my day for you?" Aisha said, "Yes." Aisha then took her yellow veil and perfumed it and then sat beside the Prophet (peace be upon him) who said, "O Aisha, keep away from me, it is not your day". Aisha said, "It is Allah's Grace and He bestows it upon whomever He wants," and then she told him the whole matter and he forgave Saffiyyah. (Ibn Majah, An-Nikah, vol. 1 p.634, Cited in Muhammad Fathi Mus'ad, The Wives of the Prophet Muhammad: Their Strives and Their Lives, p.174)

This shows that the Prophet was strict in keeping his days to his wives. The only reason why he agreed to not give it to Sauda is because SHE IS THE ONE that offered to give up her day. Read the hadith carefully...

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 3, Book 47, Number 766:

Narrated Aisha:

Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to go on a journey, he would draw lots as to which of his wives would accompany him. He would take her whose name came out. He used to fix for each of them a day and a night. But Sauda bint Zam'a gave up her (turn) day and night to 'Aisha, the wife of the Prophet in order to seek the pleasure of Allah's Apostle (by that action).

Volume 3, Book 48, Number 853:

Narrated Aisha:

Whenever Allah's Apostle intended to go on a journey, he used to draw lots among his wives and would take with him the one on whom the lot fell. He also used to fix for everyone of his wives a day and a night, but Sauda bint Zam'a gave her day and night to 'Aisha, the wife of the Prophet intending thereby to please Allah's Apostle.

Sahih Muslim

Book 008, Number 3451:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Never did I find any woman more loving to me than Sauda bint Zam'a. I wished I could be exactly like her who was passionate. As she became old, she had made over her day (which she had to spend) with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to 'A'isha. She said: I have made over my day with you to 'A'isha. So Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) allotted two days to 'A'isha, her own day (when it was her turn) and that of Sauda.

These women of such high faith would do anything to keep their husbands happy. Especially if your husband happens to be the glorious Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

The Prophet thought highly of Sauda...

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 2, Book 24, Number 501:

Narrated 'Aisha:

Some of the wives of the Prophet asked him, "Who amongst us will be the first to follow you (i.e. die after you)?" He said, "Whoever has the longest hand." So they started measuring their hands with a stick and Sauda's hand turned out to be the longest. (When Zainab bint Jahsh died first of all in the caliphate of 'Umar), we came to know that the long hand was a symbol of practicing charity, so she was the first to follow the Prophet and she used to love to practice charity. (Sauda died later in the caliphate of Muawiya).

So there is no evidence at all that the Prophet was ever unfair to Sauda. On the contrary, his marriage to her was nothing but an act of mercy...

The Wisdom Behind This Marriage

Imagine what the situation would have come to if the Prophet (peace be upon him) had not married Saudah. Had she been safe from the torture and persecution of her relatives who were still disbelievers?

She belonged to a disbelieving family; her father was an aged disbeliever; and so was her brother. Her husband died and she became a widow having a little girl without a supporter or a provider.

No doubt, her marriage to the Prophet (peace be upon him) was mercy and protection for her from the torture of her family. Perhaps if she had stayed, they would have killed her or tried her in her belief.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) sympathized with this faithful widow immigrant. Her married her to save her from the oppression of her family. (Muhammad Fathi Mus'ad, The Wives of the Prophet Muhammad: Their Strives and Their Lives, p.32)

(Article located at: http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/treatment_to_sauda.htm )

Also, look at this missionary twist:

"Furthermore, this means that Sura 4:128-130 gives Muslim men the sanction to simply ignore any wife whom they no longer feel attracted to, thereby denying them the pleasure of love and intimacy!'

Now, here is what (again) Sura 4:128-130 says:

"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do. Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. But if they disagree (and must part), God will provide abundance for all from His all-reaching bounty: for God is He that careth for all and is Wise."

(The Holy Qur'an, Sura 4 Ayat no. 128-130)

Sam Shamoun please show us:

Where in the Noble Ayats, does it give sanction (Authoritative permission) to ignore your wife? Infact, what it does say is to NOT TURN AWAY FROM A WOMAN, SO AS TO LEAVE HER HANGING..

http://www.answering-christianity.com/umar/umar_mary2_rebuttal.htm
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by tbaba1234: 7:30pm On May 08, 2013
She feared ... Is that the same thing as HE intended ?
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by Nobody: 7:40pm On May 08, 2013
tbaba1234: She feared ... Is that the same thing as HE intended ?


So why did she fear it if there was no indication that it was going to happen.

First of all, you say that Sawdah upset the Prophet with her words to her husband's brother so the prophet became angry and wanted to divorce her.
Then you come back and say that Sawdah gave up her night only because she wanted to please the prophet, not hbecause he wanted to divorce her.

Which of your statements should I believe?



This verse of the Quran;
Now, here is what (again) Sura 4:128-130 says:
"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do. Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. But if they disagree (and must part), God will provide abundance for all from His all-reaching bounty: for God is He that careth for all and is Wise."


was revealed to the prophet (pbuh) about Sawdah's giving up her night to Aisha as the tafsir clearly says;


Quran 4:128 means, coming to peaceful terms, even when it involves forfeiting some rights, is better than parting. Abu Dawud At-Tayalisi recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Sawdah feared that the Messenger of Allah might divorce her and she said, `O Messenger of Allah! Do not divorce me; give my day to `A'ishah.' And he did, and later on Allah sent down quran 4 verse 128.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir


Therefore, Muhammed must have known that Sawdah was giving up her nights because she feared he would divorce her.
Why didn't he reassure her that he had no intention of divorcing her instead of going ahead with the agreement that she made because she was scared?
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by maclatunji: 7:45pm On May 08, 2013
^From whatever angle you choose to look at the topic you created, what are you trying to prove?
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by Nobody: 8:03pm On May 08, 2013
maclatunji: ^From whatever angle you choose to look at the topic you created, what are you trying to prove?

I'm not trying to prove anything. I just want to understand the person of Muhammed better. I could have read the first info about how he divorced Sawdah and stopped sleeping with her and believed it without asking questions but I came here to clarify first so I can hear from both sides before knowing what to believe.
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by tbaba1234: 8:13pm On May 08, 2013
NL member:

So why did she fear it if there was no indication that it was going to happen.

First of all, you say that Sawdah upset the Prophet with her words to her husband's brother so the prophet became angry and wanted to divorce her.
Then you come back and say that Sawdah gave up her night only because she wanted to please the prophet, not hbecause he wanted to divorce her.

Which of your statements should I believe?


Those are two different incidents, what are you talking about??

This verse of the Quran;
Now, here is what (again) Sura 4:128-130 says:
"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do. Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. But if they disagree (and must part), God will provide abundance for all from His all-reaching bounty: for God is He that careth for all and is Wise."

was revealed to the prophet (pbuh) about Sawdah's giving up her night to Aisha as the tafsir clearly says;


Quran 4:128 means, coming to peaceful terms, even when it involves forfeiting some rights, is better than parting. Abu Dawud At-Tayalisi recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Sawdah feared that the Messenger of Allah might divorce her and she said, `O Messenger of Allah! Do not divorce me; give my day to `A'ishah.' And he did, and later on Allah sent down quran 4 verse 128.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir


Therefore, Muhammed must have known that Sawdah was giving up her nights because she feared he would divorce her.
Why didn't he reassure her that he had no intention of divorcing her instead of going ahead with the agreement that she made because she was scared?


I do not know the point you are trying to make;

You want the messenger to do what you think is the best for him in his marriage.. I don't understand your position. Looking through the history of your posts, i can see the kind of crap you post.
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by Nobody: 8:25pm On May 08, 2013
tbaba1234:

I do not know the point you are trying to make;

You want the messenger to do what you think is the best for him in his marriage.. I don't understand your position. Looking through the history of your posts, i can see the kind of crap you post.

I am not trying to upset anybody.

Sorry for any annoyance my post is causing.
I asked these questions because I thought it was kind of unfair to deprive your wife of conjugal relations when you can just tell her that you have no intention of divorcing her and thereby allay her fears.
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by tbaba1234: 9:20pm On May 08, 2013
It is a very subjective matter, Sawdah is the one who offered to give up her days not the other way round. You can't look at the 6th century with a 21st century goggle.

If you read my previous post, you will see that the messenger gave her protection at her most vulnerable time even though she was already old and held her in high regard.

There is no evidence that He was ever unfair to her except the ones you produce in your brain.
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by Nobody: 9:54pm On May 08, 2013
tbaba1234: It is a very subjective matter, Sawdah is the one who offered to give up her days not the other way round. You can't look at the 6th century with a 21st century goggle.
I'm afraid I don't understand how this is related to what happened. Are you saying that in the 6th century nothing was wrong with living with a woman and not satisfying her conjugal needs?

If you read my previous post, you will see that the messenger gave her protection at her most vulnerable time even though she was already old and held her in high regard.
But he stopped devoting the time he gave his other wives to Sawdah just because she was scared he would divorce her.
I wonder why he didn't just tell her he wasn't going to divorce her so that she would get the same (fair) treatment the other wives were getting.

There is no evidence that He was ever unfair to her except the ones you produce in your brain.
Except the ones I produce in my brain?
What about the Quranic verse I quoted and the associated tafsir? Or are you saying nothing is wrong with living with a woman you're married to and doing nothing to satisfy her intimate needs?
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by tbaba1234: 11:24pm On May 08, 2013
You are still missing the point. Now let's break it down.

In Islam, You have to be just to all wives to. Now if you feel you can not fulfill that obligation of justice. Is it better to let the person go or allow the person to persist in injustice.

Now travel to the 6th century...

Sawdah was really old, as a result, The messenger found it difficult giving her conjugal rights to her. She feared that this could lead to a divorce as the messenger is obligated to give each wife equal rights.

But like the Ayah says: "....Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air)."

She decided to give up her time ad let go of HER right. She gave up her right voluntarily. She remained an important member of the home till her death.

The ayah commands the messenger and all muslims to realise that even when equal justice is impossible as in this case because of her age, you must never leave a woman hanging.

I am waiting to get your point.
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by Nobody: 12:46am On May 09, 2013
tbaba1234: You are still missing the point. Now let's break it down.
In Islam, You have to be just to all wives to. Now if you feel you can not fulfill that obligation of justice. Is it better to let the person go or allow the person to persist in injustice.
Now travel to the 6th century...
[size=14pt]Sawdah was really old, as a result, The messenger found it difficult giving her conjugal rights to her.[/size]

Very very superficial reason. Why would it be hard for a man to get intimate with his wife because of her old age?
Is old age a disease?
Was her aging something she could prevent from happening?
I don't think it is fair to suddenly find it hard to give a woman her conjugal rights because she is now old and no longer as nubile as she used to be before. The same woman who was among the very first to accept Islam, who gave her husband comfort after he lost his first wife, who gave him 6 children. . . . .now she has grown old she has become hard to get intimate with and should be deprived of what the other wives were getting.

She feared that this could lead to a divorce as the messenger is obligated to give each wife equal rights.

But like the Ayah says: "....Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air)."
[/size]
She decided to give up her time ad let go of HER right. She gave up her right voluntarily. She remained an important member of the home till her death.



First of all, she feared that she would be given a divorce because of her old age and that was why she gave up her rights. It wasn't something she would have liked to do. She did it out of fear.
The act of giving up her conjugal rights was something she was compelled to do but was not done voluntarily. It was either her marriage ended or she gave up conjugal visits for the rest of her life so of course she had to give up her conjugal rights.


The ayah commands the messenger and all muslims to realise that even when equal justice is impossible as in this case because of her age, you must never leave a woman hanging.
I am waiting to get your point.
The Ayah says that Muslim men will never be able to treat their wives equally no matter how hard they tried but they should never leave the wives hanging.
If you want to put this in the context of the Prophet giving the wives intimate relations, that means that even though he was finding it difficult to be intimate with his wife because she was old, he didn't have to avoid her altogether. He could have still made it a point of visiting her once in a while, even if it not as often as he visited his other wives.
Why was her old age so repulsive to the Prophet that he couldn't even manage a once in a while visit, he started to contemplate divorcing her?
Divorce, which is something Allah hates so much in Islam, that is the same thing Prophet would have carried out instead of managing or trying to be with Sawdah once in a while so that he wouldn't leave her hanging completely?

If Sawdah didn't see any indication that the Prophet was going to divorce her then she would not have given up her rights and instead of agreeing to Sawdah's terms, the Prophet would have cleared her fears about a divorce and still tried to get intimate with her, even if it was only once in a while.
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by tbaba1234: 1:19am On May 09, 2013
Abu Dawood reported this hadeeth (from ‘Aa’ishah): ‘The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) never used to prefer any of us over others in sharing his time (i.e., he was fair in dividing his nights among his wives, and each one of them had her allotted night).

When Sawdah bint Zam’ah grew old and feared that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) might divorce her, she said: ‘O Messenger of Allaah, my day is for ‘Aa’ishah,’ and he accepted this from her. Then concerning this and similar cases, the aayah was revealed (interpretation of the meaning): ‘And if a woman fears cruelty or desertion on her husband’s part…’ [al-Nisaa’ 4:128]. These reports agree that she feared divorce and so gave her day to ‘Aa’ishah.


It is clear that the messenger gave all his wives their due time, and sawdah decided to give hers up. From all indications, the agreement was amicable to both parties. No one complained , so how is it doing you?

You grouse is that the messenger should have said no abi??... Is that what you made this thread for?? Not one of his wives said a bad word about him, during his life or after his death.

How many men with just one wife can confidently say that?

If you do not like what happened, i can't help you.
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by Nobody: 7:35am On May 09, 2013
tbaba1234: Abu Dawood reported this hadeeth (from ‘Aa’ishah): ‘The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) never used to prefer any of us over others in sharing his time (i.e., he was fair in dividing his nights among his wives, and each one of them had her allotted night).
When Sawdah bint Zam’ah grew old and feared that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) might divorce her, she said: ‘O Messenger of Allaah, my day is for ‘Aa’ishah,’ and he accepted this from her. Then concerning this and similar cases, the aayah was revealed (interpretation of the meaning): ‘And if a woman fears cruelty or desertion on her husband’s part…’ [al-Nisaa’ 4:128]. These reports agree that she feared divorce and so gave her day to ‘Aa’ishah.

It is clear that the messenger gave all his wives their due time, and sawdah decided to give hers up. From all indications, the agreement was amicable to both parties. No one complained , so how is it doing you?



You grouse is that the messenger should have said no abi??... Is that what you made this thread for?? Not one of his wives said a bad word about him, during his life or after his death.

How many men with just one wife can confidently say that?

If you do not like what happened, i can't help you.


I have no grouse about anything, please.
I think many Muslims are wonderful and peace loving and its unfortunate that extremists give them a bad name.

Back to the topic,
When one makes an agreement out of fear, that agreement is not a willing one, neither is it an amicable one. It is an agreement one was compelled to make, due to then fact that they feared some type of harm or misfortune.

Sawdah made that agreement of of fear of divorce by the prophet and he accepted it because he was already contemplating divorcing her due to her old age.

tbaba1234: Sawdah was really old, as a result, The messenger found it difficult giving her conjugal rights to her
I think it is unbelievably superficial and shallow to start finding it difficult to sleep with your wife and even contemplate divorcing her just because she is old. A wife that like you said, was very loyal and well behaved all through her years of the marriage.
That is the same person that is now suddenly repulsive because of no other reason than her old age, something she had no control over.

tbaba1234: Not one of his wives said a bad word about him, during his life or after his death.
I thought uttering bad words against the prophet was a sin and displeasing to Allah?
Maybe that was the real reason why they never uttered any bad words about him.
No offense.
Or if you meant they never complained about any of his actions then you would still be wrong because his wives complained about his actions sometimes.
Re: I Need Answers From Muslims by mahdino: 9:55am On May 16, 2013
NL member:

I have no grouse about anything, please.
I think many Muslims are wonderful and peace loving and its unfortunate that extremists give them a bad name.

Back to the topic,
When one makes an agreement out of fear, that agreement is not a willing one, neither is it an amicable one. It is an agreement one was compelled to make, due to then fact that they feared some type of harm or misfortune.

Sawdah made that agreement of of fear of divorce by the prophet and he accepted it because he was already contemplating divorcing her due to her old age.


I think it is unbelievably superficial and shallow to start finding it difficult to sleep with your wife and even contemplate divorcing her just because she is old. A wife that like you said, was very loyal and well behaved all through her years of the marriage.
That is the same person that is now suddenly repulsive because of no other reason than her old age, something she had no control over.


I thought uttering bad words against the prophet was a sin and displeasing to Allah?
Maybe that was the real reason why they never uttered any bad words about him.
No offense.
Or if you meant they never complained about any of his actions then you would still be wrong because his wives complained about his actions sometimes. Of all the wives of the prophet (SAW) only Aisha (RA) was a virgin, most were widows, so not young, he married most due to peity and mercy


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