ijawkid:

Answer am.....

How does Jesus being worshipped make him equal to God.......answer.....

Angels can't worship anyone or anything lesser than God...

ijawkid:

Did john 1:1 say the Lamb was the GOD he was with??......

That is why I say read proverbs 8:22-30 and see that this Lamb who was created but the first of Gods work was with God.......

Now I established the one God as the Father......1 corinthians 8:6 confirms that there are many who are called Gods which ofcourse does not contradict Jesus being called God in john 1:1...

But to us there is one God....

And who is he??

The Father alone......

Now tell me is Jesus the Father.......or seperate from the Father and therefore not the one God who exalted him??....

John 1:1 does not prove Jesus is the one GOD the Father

if I say you they ask dumb question you go vex small abi?
the Lamb is jesus... jesus is the word... the word is GOD... wetin be ya palaba... I go call police for you before you go understand?

the Micah 5:2 quote clearly states that the Messiah has existed from all eternity
- Meaning: "His activities date back to all eternity, without beginning"
- Contrasting the Messiah's future incarnation with His "eternal origins/activities", the only logical conclusion is that Jesus was at the very least of supernatural origin, like Jehovah, for only Jehovah has an eternal origins! The Messiah therefore traced his lineage, not from David, but from all past eternity, being like God himself, has always existed and timeless! No Jew would every apply this language to a created angel!


you said proverbs proves Jesus was created when it does. The simple Question is who is prudence?
However, the "me" who is speaking throughout Proverbs 8:1 through 9:12 is identified as "wisdom," and many other translations reflect the fact that feminine pronouns are used. Wisdom raises her voice in 8:1; she takes her stand in 8:2; she cries out in 8:3; wisdom has built her house in 9:1; she has prepared her table in 9:2--hardly the language one would expect if Jesus Christ were meant.
answer this question.

ijawkid:

Now ask yourself.....what does worship mean??........

It is obvious and I've shown you that david received worship alongside Yahweh the God who aPpointed him king.....

What is worship....??

SMH... now worship don mean another thing... it not obvious david receive worship stop dragging david into it... what ever you say worship means the commandment is that we should not worship anyone except GOD. period

twosquare: Angels can't worship anyone or anything lesser than God...

And what has that got to do with anything here......

The point here is that Yahweh and his appointed king is worshipped......

Your excuse is lame.......

Is david God for sharing worship with God??

benalvino:

SMH... now worship don mean another thing... it not obvious david receive worship stop dragging david into it... what ever you say worship means the commandment is that we should not worship anyone except GOD. period

Lol........

David shared worship with Yahweh.......its down in scriptures....you just read it boldly..........stop running around....and face the ish.......

Define worship.....oya.......

ijawkid:

Lol........

David shared worship with Yahweh.......its down in scriptures....you just read it boldly..........stop running around....and face the ish.......

Define worship.....oya.......

what verse?

benalvino:
if I say you they ask dumb question you go vex small abi?
the Lamb is jesus... jesus is the word... the word is GOD... wetin be ya palaba... I go call police for you before you go understand?

the Micah 5:2 quote clearly states that the Messiah has existed from all eternity
- Meaning: "His activities date back to all eternity, without beginning"
- Contrasting the Messiah's future incarnation with His "eternal origins/activities", the only logical conclusion is that Jesus was at the very least of supernatural origin, like Jehovah, for only Jehovah has an eternal origins! The Messiah therefore traced his lineage, not from David, but from all past eternity, being like God himself, has always existed and timeless! No Jew would every apply this language to a created angel!

Let me face this micah you have been clinging to like a wife..........

2. The Context of Micah
5:2
But as for you,
Bethlehem Ephrathah,
too little to be among
the thousands of
Judah, from you One
will go forth to Me to
be ruler in Israel. His
goings forth are from
old, from the days of
eternity. Therefore
he will give them up
until the time when
she who is in labor has
borne a child. Then
the remainder of his
brethren will return
to the sons of Israel.
And he will arise and
Shepherd his flock in
the strength of
""YHWH"", in the
majesty of the name
of YAHWEH his
God. (Micah 5:4).
Just two verses later we
find that the person in view
has a God; Yahweh is his God.
It should be clear that
the One who will go forth to
be ruler in Israel is not
Yahweh God or a co equal to Yahweh but someone
who has Yahweh God as his
God.
.......
3. His "goings forth"
The Hebrew word here
"motsa'ah" indicates the
concept of "origin." The
English term "goings forth"
is a decent translation of
the Hebrew intent.
.....
Whose ""origin"" is from of
old, from ancient times.
(NAB).

whose"" origins"" are from
of old, from ancient
times. (NIV).
.....
whose origin is from of
old, from ancient days.
(RSV).

........#######
4. Of "old"
The Hebrew "qedem" is the
word we usually translate as
"east." Since the sun dawns
in the east and the day
begins in the east it is a
front place where the day
begins. This Hebrew word
does not really mean "old"
but conveys the idea of a
"beginning" or a "front" and
so with respect to time it
implies the idea of old
beginnings.
.......#####

.....
##The Definition of ""olam""
The word ""olam"" simply does
not mean "everlasting," or
"eternity" defined as an
infinite time continuum, or
as a reality of timelessness,
or whatever reality God
exists in. This word simply
means a very long period of
time or an indefinite period
of time. It does not mean
infinity. It comes from a
root word which means
hidden or concealed. This is
similar to the idea
expressed by the English
term "unforseeable future."
It refers to an indefinite
period of time.
That ""olam"" does not refer to
infinite time, or a state of
timelessness, or some other
kind of reality in which only
God exists, can be seen
from its use in the
Scriptures.
The Nephilim were on
the earth in those days...
they were the mighty
ones of old, men of
renown. (Gen 6:4).

Remember the"" days of
old"", consider the years
of all generations. Ask
your father, and he will
inform you, your elders,
and they will tell you.
(Deuteronomy 32:7).

Joshua said to all the
people, "Thus says
YAHWEH, the God of
Israel, ""`From ancient
times"" your fathers lived
beyond the River,
namely, Terah, the
father of Abraham and
the father of Nahor,
and they served other
gods. (Joshua 24:2).

Now David and his men
went up and raided the
Geshurites and the
Girzites and the
Amalekites; for they
were the inhabitants of
the land from"" ancient
times"". (1 Samuel 27:.
..
Remove not the ""ancient
landmark"" which your
fathers have set.
(Proverbs 22:8; cf.
23:10).

And your ancient ruins
shall be rebuilt; you
shall raise up the
foundations of many
generations. (Isaiah
58:12; cf, 61:4).

In all their affliction he
was afflicted, and the
angel of his presence
saved them; in his love
and in his pity he
redeemed them; he
lifted them up and
carried them all the
""days of old"". But they
rebelled and grieved his
holy Spirit; therefore
he turned to be their
enemy, and himself
fought against them.
Then he remembered
the"" days of old"", of
Moses his servant.
(Isaiah 63:9,11).
.
Then the offering of
Judah and Jerusalem
will be pleasing to the
LORD as in"" the days of
old"" and as in former
years. (Malachi 3:4).
......
It is quite clear in the above
passages that"" olam"" cannot
possibly mean "eternity."
The actual Hebrew at Micah
5:2 literally reads "days of
olam." This phrase is also
used in another place right
here in this very same book
of Micah just two chapters
later.
:::
Shepherd Your people
with Your scepter, the
flock of Your possession
which dwells by itself in
the woodland, in the
midst of a fruitful field.
Let them feed in Bashan
and Gilead as in the
""days of old"" (Micah 7:14)
.
Obviously, the term "days of
olam" in does not mean
"eternity" as "everlasting
time," or "never ending
time," or anything of the
like, or we have the
ridiculous problem of
explaining just how the Jews
were to feed the flock just
as they had done in the "days
of eternity."........

It is clear what Micah 5:2 is about the fact that
Bethlehem is the home of
the Messiah's ancestral
origins. It is the ancient
home of his ancestors.
Genealogical lineages tell us
about our ancestral origins.
Bethlehem is the home of
Jesus' ancient ancestors; it
is ancient origins. We must
remember that David was
born 1000 years before
Jesus and Judah was born
about 1800 years before
Jesus. From Jesus'
perspective in time this is
ancient.
######
The Trinitarian claim is
based on unwarranted
translation of words and
imagining Trinitarian
doctrine into the Hebrew
text. The grammatical and
contextual evidence indicate
the verse is a reference to
the Messiah’s ancient
ancestral origins in
Bethlehem of Ephratah.
Micah has the ruling Davidic
dynasty in mind. The passage
should be understood as
follows:
But as for you,
Bethlehem Ephrathah,
insignificant among the
thousands of Judah, out
of you One will go forth
for Me to be ruler in
Israel (i.e. Messiah will
be born in Bethlehem).
His [ancestral] origins
[in Bethlehem] are from
ancient times, from the
days of old.
There is nothing here about
a Messiah originating in
eternity. The force of the
entire passage is about the
Davidic King Messiah being
born in Bethlehem, the home
of Jesus' ancient ancestors
where his genealogical
lineage began in ancient
times.
.....

Lest I forget let's take a look @ how the goodnews bible translation renders that verse....



.....

GNT-online
Micah 5:2
2 The Lord says, "Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are
one of the smallest towns in Judah, but out of
you I will bring a ruler for Israel, whose family
line goes back to ancient times."


Perfect!!!!!!!......

benalvino:

what verse?

What!!!!....

1 Chronicles 29:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 And David said to all the congregation, Now
bless the LORD your God. And all the
congregation blessed the LORD God of their
fathers, and bowed down their heads, and
worshipped the LORD, and the king.


No tell me say ya eye no dey see am......

ijawkid:

Let me face this micah you have been clinging to like a wife..........

2. The Context of Micah
5:2
But as for you,
Bethlehem Ephrathah,
too little to be among
the thousands of
Judah, from you One
will go forth to Me to
be ruler in Israel. His
goings forth are from
old, from the days of
eternity. Therefore
he will give them up
until the time when
she who is in labor has
borne a child. Then
the remainder of his
brethren will return
to the sons of Israel.
And he will arise and
Shepherd his flock in
the strength of
""YHWH"", in the
majesty of the name
of YAHWEH his
God. (Micah 5:4).
Just two verses later we
find that the person in view
has a God; Yahweh is his God.
It should be clear that
the One who will go forth to
be ruler in Israel is not
Yahweh God or a co equal to Yahweh but someone
who has Yahweh God as his
God.
.......
3. His "goings forth"
The Hebrew word here
"motsa'ah" indicates the
concept of "origin." The
English term "goings forth"
is a decent translation of
the Hebrew intent.
.....
Whose ""origin"" is from of
old, from ancient times.
(NAB).

whose"" origins"" are from
of old, from ancient
times. (NIV).
.....
whose origin is from of
old, from ancient days.
(RSV).

........#######
4. Of "old"
The Hebrew "qedem" is the
word we usually translate as
"east." Since the sun dawns
in the east and the day
begins in the east it is a
front place where the day
begins. This Hebrew word
does not really mean "old"
but conveys the idea of a
"beginning" or a "front" and
so with respect to time it
implies the idea of old
beginnings.
.......#####

.....
##The Definition of ""olam""
The word ""olam"" simply does
not mean "everlasting," or
"eternity" defined as an
infinite time continuum, or
as a reality of timelessness,
or whatever reality God
exists in. This word simply
means a very long period of
time or an indefinite period
of time. It does not mean
infinity. It comes from a
root word which means
hidden or concealed. This is
similar to the idea
expressed by the English
term "unforseeable future."
It refers to an indefinite
period of time.
That ""olam"" does not refer to
infinite time, or a state of
timelessness, or some other
kind of reality in which only
God exists, can be seen
from its use in the
Scriptures.
The Nephilim were on
the earth in those days...
they were the mighty
ones of old, men of
renown. (Gen 6:4).

Remember the"" days of
old"", consider the years
of all generations. Ask
your father, and he will
inform you, your elders,
and they will tell you.
(Deuteronomy 32:7).

Joshua said to all the
people, "Thus says
YAHWEH, the God of
Israel, ""`From ancient
times"" your fathers lived
beyond the River,
namely, Terah, the
father of Abraham and
the father of Nahor,
and they served other
gods. (Joshua 24:2).

Now David and his men
went up and raided the
Geshurites and the
Girzites and the
Amalekites; for they
were the inhabitants of
the land from"" ancient
times"". (1 Samuel 27:.
..
Remove not the ""ancient
landmark"" which your
fathers have set.
(Proverbs 22:8; cf.
23:10).

And your ancient ruins
shall be rebuilt; you
shall raise up the
foundations of many
generations. (Isaiah
58:12; cf, 61:4).

In all their affliction he
was afflicted, and the
angel of his presence
saved them; in his love
and in his pity he
redeemed them; he
lifted them up and
carried them all the
""days of old"". But they
rebelled and grieved his
holy Spirit; therefore
he turned to be their
enemy, and himself
fought against them.
Then he remembered
the"" days of old"", of
Moses his servant.
(Isaiah 63:9,11).
.
Then the offering of
Judah and Jerusalem
will be pleasing to the
LORD as in"" the days of
old"" and as in former
years. (Malachi 3:4).
......
It is quite clear in the above
passages that"" olam"" cannot
possibly mean "eternity."
The actual Hebrew at Micah
5:2 literally reads "days of
olam." This phrase is also
used in another place right
here in this very same book
of Micah just two chapters
later.
:::
Shepherd Your people
with Your scepter, the
flock of Your possession
which dwells by itself in
the woodland, in the
midst of a fruitful field.
Let them feed in Bashan
and Gilead as in the
""days of old"" (Micah 7:14)
.
Obviously, the term "days of
olam" in does not mean
"eternity" as "everlasting
time," or "never ending
time," or anything of the
like, or we have the
ridiculous problem of
explaining just how the Jews
were to feed the flock just
as they had done in the "days
of eternity."........

It is clear what Micah 5:2 is about the fact that
Bethlehem is the home of
the Messiah's ancestral
origins. It is the ancient
home of his ancestors.
Genealogical lineages tell us
about our ancestral origins.
Bethlehem is the home of
Jesus' ancient ancestors; it
is ancient origins. We must
remember that David was
born 1000 years before
Jesus and Judah was born
about 1800 years before
Jesus. From Jesus'
perspective in time this is
ancient.
######
The Trinitarian claim is
based on unwarranted
translation of words and
imagining Trinitarian
doctrine into the Hebrew
text. The grammatical and
contextual evidence indicate
the verse is a reference to
the Messiah’s ancient
ancestral origins in
Bethlehem of Ephratah.
Micah has the ruling Davidic
dynasty in mind. The passage
should be understood as
follows:
But as for you,
Bethlehem Ephrathah,
insignificant among the
thousands of Judah, out
of you One will go forth
for Me to be ruler in
Israel (i.e. Messiah will
be born in Bethlehem).
His [ancestral] origins
[in Bethlehem] are from
ancient times, from the
days of old.
There is nothing here about
a Messiah originating in
eternity. The force of the
entire passage is about the
Davidic King Messiah being
born in Bethlehem, the home
of Jesus' ancient ancestors
where his genealogical
lineage began in ancient
times.
.....

Lest I forget let's take a look @ how the goodnews bible translation renders that verse....



.....

GNT-online
Micah 5:2
2 The Lord says, "Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are
one of the smallest towns in Judah, but out of
you I will bring a ruler for Israel, whose family
line goes back to ancient times."


Perfect!!!!!!!......

I don't know where you Go gather all this bible verse from... but non refute the fact that Jesus is eternal... everlasting...
the fact that Jesus called his father his God is not new.
try stick to 2 bible... kjv and NIV no they jump about.

ijawkid:

What!!!!....

1 Chronicles 29:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 And David said to all the congregation, Now
bless the LORD your God. And all the
congregation blessed the LORD God of their
fathers, and bowed down their heads, and
worshipped the LORD, and the king.


No tell me say ya eye no dey see am......

hahahahaha... really david on earth?
we are talking about heaven man.
Just so you know David was a king to his people while God receive the worship what he Got was civil homage... lmao

benalvino:

I don't know where you Go gather all this bible verse from... but non refute the fact that Jesus is eternal... everlasting...
the fact that Jesus called his father his God is not new.
try stick to 2 bible... kjv and NIV no they jump about.

Lol...I'm not jumping about....I just went straight to the root words which have been misconstrued to mean Jesus exited for everlasting to everlasting....

Innocent micah was just plainly describing Jesus' lineage from bethlehem....trinitarians grabbed it and said this Jesus never had a beginning......

The same words used were used numerous times still in that micah and meant the same thing..never you quote micah 5:2 to prove Jesus never had a beginning......



Jesus had a beginning...

Please go back to explaining what Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation means......

Oya......

benalvino:

hahahahaha... really david on earth?
we are talking about heaven man.
Just so you know David was a king to his people while God receive the worship what he Got was civil homage... lmao

Cheiii........

Please from that verse tell me the LORD and david wasn't worshipped??...

You say civil homage??.....oh..clap your hands......

E be like you no dey read that verse well...

It says the people bowed and worshipped Yahweh and the king.....

Oboy no escape route....

Rememeber my point here is to prove people worshipping GOD and his annointed one in no way proves that that annointed one is an equal with God........

No somersault can get you out of it....

ijawkid:

Cheiii........

Please from that verse tell me the LORD and david wasn't worshipped??...

You say civil homage??.....oh..clap your hands......

E be like you no dey read that verse well...

It says the people bowed and worshipped Yahweh and the king.....

Oboy no escape route....

Rememeber my point here is to prove people worshipping GOD and his annointed one in no way proves that that annointed one is an equal with God........

No somersault can get you out of it....

lol people worship david on earth... understand context. he is not even Divine... even angels stop people from worshipping them.
when you go to revelation you see people honoring the son and the father equally... no time david was called... you are only seeing civil homage if you like do like say u no know just because it helps your argument.

ijawkid:

Lol...I'm not jumping about....I just went straight to the root words which have been misconstrued to mean Jesus exited for everlasting to everlasting....

Innocent micah was just plainly describing Jesus' lineage from bethlehem....trinitarians grabbed it and said this Jesus never had a beginning......

The same words used were used numerous times still in that micah and meant the same thing..never you quote micah 5:2 to prove Jesus never had a beginning......



Jesus had a beginning...

Please go back to explaining what Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation means......

Oya......

Revelation 3:14, "And to the angel of Laodicea write: 'The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the creation of God....'" Here the faithful witness is Jesus and He is called, "The Beginning of the creation."

The Greek word for beginning is arche, which is used in many ways. It is used to mean "origin or source of, or ruler," but not first creation. turn to Revelation 21:6. In these two verses, Jehovah calls Himself the beginning. Does that mean Jehovah was created? No. Therefore you are using the term beginning, incorrectly.

Jesus was never created. John 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word" Jesus was with God from eternity past; Jesus has no beginning because He is the eternal God.

I wonder which verse you go go carry come again. I they pack my things to my new house I no too get time. but I they manage reply you.

benalvino:

lol people worship david on earth... understand context. he is not even Divine... even angels stop people from worshipping them.
when you go to revelation you see people honoring the son and the father equally... no time david was called... you are only seeing civil homage if you like do like say u no know just because it helps your argument.

You don't get it do you??.......

And what you have read are you not seeing people worshipping and honouring the appointed king of God (David) and Yahweh??......

Please point out where u see civil homage in that verse......please point it out......

wether david is divine or not my point stands......both david and Jesus are and were appointed by Yahweh to be king.....

Na lie??.....

Was Jesus not appointed and annointed??......

And both david and Jesus sit/sat on Gods throne......

So tell me how that verse does not show that the honour and worship of the isrealites was shared between Yahweh and david......that verse is as clear as day light......

If I remove david and put Jesus in that verse its still the same thing....

Because Yahweh is greater than all of them and he appointed them...

Stop this dance around.....

benalvino:

Revelation 3:14, "And to the angel of Laodicea write: 'The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the creation of God....'" Here the faithful witness is Jesus and He is called, "The Beginning of the creation."

The Greek word for beginning is arche, which is used in many ways. It is used to mean "origin or source of, or ruler," but not first creation. Turn with the Witness to Revelation 21:6. In these two verses, Jehovah calls Himself the beginning. Does that mean Jehovah was created? No. Therefore, the Witnesses use of the term beginning, is incorrect.

Jesus was never created. John 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word" Jesus was with God from eternity past; Jesus has no beginning because He is the eternal God.

I wonder which verse you go go carry come again. I they pack my things to my new house I no too get time. but I they manage reply you.

Did Jehovah call himself the beginning of someone elses hand work??,......

There you fail bro....you fail big time....

Is Jehovah the beginning of the creation of God??.......

Please read revelation 3:14 well......

Yes arche means beginning...what about the expression arche of??

I thought previous posts I had fully explained what that expression means....all you did was dodge it to the core.....

do you want to see from the bible what it means to be the beginning of someone elses work??......

And john 1:1 got clearer when it was clearly shown that that word is the firstborn of all creation and the beginning of it.....

Stick to scriptural truth....Jesus had a beginning........

ijawkid:

Did Jehovah call himself the beginning of someone elses hand work??,......

There you fail bro....you fail big time....

Is Jehovah the beginning of the creation of God??.......

Please read revelation 3:14 well......

Yes arche means beginning...what about the expression arche of??

I thought previous posts I had fully explained what that expression means....all you did was dodge it to the core.....

do you want to see from the bible what it means to be the beginning of someone elses work??......

And john 1:1 got clearer when it was clearly shown that that word is the firstborn of all creation and the beginning of it.....

Stick to scriptural truth....Jesus had a beginning........

ijawkid the crucial Greek word here is “arche.” It has more than one meaning. First of all, it can mean “ruler.” The NIV translates part of this verse as “the ruler of God’s creation.” Second, “arche” can mean “source” or “origin.” This merely confirms again Jesus is the Creator. For example, the Moffatt translation reads: "the origin of God's creation." The TEV (GNB) has "the faithful and true witness, who is the origin of all that God has created."

True, this text theoretically could mean Jesus was created. It is ambiguous standing just by itself. Suppose the rest of the Bible is ignored when interpreting it. Then it could mean God created the Word as His first creative act when making the universe.

let me look at it in another way...
Let’s now think about the problem of “cafeteria exegesis” when interpreting the Bible. In a cafeteria, we can choose what food want you want when we’re in line. But now, should we interpret the Bible this way? Suppose we open up a heavy-duty Greek-English lexicon. Much like a Spanish-English dictionary, it allows us to look up the words in another language that correspond with the English words. Suppose for a given Greek word there are 5 meanings in English. However, suppose only one of those five meanings supports the particular interpretation of a Scripture that we prefer. Do we then dogmatically insist that that one meaning is correct, and the others wrong, in order to prove the doctrine we want to prove? Could one of those other meanings be what God intended for us to understand? If so, shouldn’t we admit that we can’t prove our case then?

John 1:1-14
It’s very difficult for Unitarians and Arians to explain away this section of Scripture, although they do try really hard.

V. 1: Instead of saying God was in the beginning, it says the Word was in the beginning, compare to Genesis 1:1. Poetic language indicates unusual significance.

V. 3: If the Word created all things, He couldn’t have been created. If someone says “all” doesn’t mean “all,” that this universal term isn’t universal, one needs a clear text from elsewhere in the Bible to limit it.

V. 14: The Word became flesh. The incarnation of God is a true Biblical teaching.
[Hebrews 7:3]

as you can see... if you Choose origin or source it Goes with what other verses have been teaching.

benalvino:

ijawkid the crucial Greek word here is “arche.” It has more than one meaning. First of all, it can mean “ruler.” The NIV translates part of this verse as “the ruler of God’s creation.” Second, “arche” can mean “source” or “origin.” This merely confirms again Jesus is the Creator. For example, the Moffatt translation reads: "the origin of God's creation." The TEV (GNB) has "the faithful and true witness, who is the origin of all that God has created."

True, this text theoretically could mean Jesus was created. It is ambiguous standing just by itself. Suppose the rest of the Bible is ignored when interpreting it. Then it could mean God created the Word as His first creative act when making the universe.

let me look at it in another way...
Let’s now think about the problem of “cafeteria exegesis” when interpreting the Bible. In a cafeteria, we can choose what food want you want when we’re in line. But now, should we interpret the Bible this way? Suppose we open up a heavy-duty Greek-English lexicon. Much like a Spanish-English dictionary, it allows us to look up the words in another language that correspond with the English words. Suppose for a given Greek word there are 5 meanings in English. However, suppose only one of those five meanings supports the particular interpretation of a Scripture that we prefer. Do we then dogmatically insist that that one meaning is correct, and the others wrong, in order to prove the doctrine we want to prove? Could one of those other meanings be what God intended for us to understand? If so, shouldn’t we admit that we can’t prove our case then?

John 1:1-14
It’s very difficult for Unitarians and Arians to explain away this section of Scripture, although they do try really hard.

V. 1: Instead of saying God was in the beginning, it says the Word was in the beginning, compare to Genesis 1:1. Poetic language indicates unusual significance.

V. 3: If the Word created all things, He couldn’t have been created. If someone says “all” doesn’t mean “all,” that this universal term isn’t universal, one needs a clear text from elsewhere in the Bible to limit it.

V. 14: The Word became flesh. The incarnation of God is a true Biblical teaching.
[Hebrews 7:3]

as you can see... if you Choose origin or source it Goes with what other verses have been teaching.

All you have done is dance around...my bro...please can you open an example in the scriptures where the expression beginning of when used for a living being means source??....

Please use scriptures when making examples and stop bringing in greek myths.....

I know what arche means.........

What we are on is Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation..........

Ok let me for mumus sake follow your exegesis and say Jesus is the source of Gods creation....

How can you be the source of another persons work??.....it didn't occur to you that Jesus isn't the God of which he is beginning of his(God) creation......

All I need is a scripture from the bible that supports your stance....

Please just one...

Open a scripture where it says one who is the beginning of someone elses work becomes the source of that persons work there by exempting the person under consideration as part of the handi work of the one he is the beginning of........??...

Please I have my scriptures steaming..open your own and stop this dance around........

And john 1:1 and john 1:14 isn't a problem at all to a unitarian like me.....

Just open scriptures and refute Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation exempts him from being created by God.......

And what are you quoting hebrews 7:3 for??......

You want me to expose that scripture too??....

And please benalvino can we call the Father and the holy spirit the firstborn of all creation and the beginning of the creation by God too??.......

let's use scriptures strictly to iron these issues out....

ijawkid:

Let me expose your ignorance to the full....

It seems the Father has committed a crime for exalting his son to sit down with him on his throne.....

Let me show you the adorement and worship the Father and any of his appointed annointed king enjoys...

And like I said all of Yahwehs exalted kings sits on his throne....so you guys are been fraudulent when you tend to equate an exalted person to the one who did the exalting...

1 Chronicles 29:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 And David said to all the congregation, Now
bless the LORD your God. And all the
congregation blessed the LORD God of their
fathers, and bowed down their heads, and
worshipped the LORD, and the king.


1 Chronicles 29:20-22
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
20 Then David said to all the assembly, “Now
bless the LORD your God.” And all the
assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their
fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the
LORD and to the king.


All annointed kings of God are worshipped along with the God who annointed them...that in no way means Yahweh now has equals...exactly what the isrealites did is what the angels are doing in heaven to Yahweh and his annointed one..



Now this Jesus you are trying to equate with his Father didn't assume this exalted position because he was a Co-God or some equal...

He worked hard for it and was exalted...

Why can't you stubborn headed trinitarians see this glaring points and shove your pride away...


Now see the reason why Jesus is even sitting on that throne...if Jesus was not exalted we wouldn't even be discussing this issue now...

See>>>

Revelation 3:21

New Living Translation (©2007)
Those who are victorious will sit
with me on my throne, just as I
was victorious and sat with my
Father on his throne.


Please I guess when those who are victorius sits with Jesus on his throne they'll become Jesus or equal to him....

And again the Father who is the one God has his own throne of which he exalted his son to sit down with him...

So stop this trinitarian childish acts and stick to the truth...

interesting. We both know that David was not worshiped. Bowing to pay homage and worshiping are not the same thing it is funny how you managed to scout for the only translation that translated that as worship and then pitched your tent there.
If I show you 1john 5:7 from KJV now, you will immediately deny that translation and start scouting other translations to make your claim.

Let us see what some of the translations you dodged had to say.

Then David said to the whole assembly, "Praise the LORD your God." So they all praised the LORD, the God of their fathers; they bowed down, prostrating themselves before the LORD and the king. NIV

Then David said to the whole assembly, "Give praise to the LORD your God!" And the entire assembly praised the LORD, the God of their ancestors, and they bowed low and knelt before the LORD and the king. NLT

and my favorite:

And David said to all the congregation, Now bless Jehovah your God! And all the congregation blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed and worshiped Jehovah, and bowed to the king. MKJV


You have no case.

If you like I can also show you throughout the bible people paying homage, bowing and kneeling and falling flat on their faces before their fathers, uncles, brothers, friends, kings, angels e.t.c. Not all bowing is worship.

But how does your example compare with this:

Rev_5:13 And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever.

or this:

Rev_7:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

Or even better, This:

Rev 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones.

My dear, your argument is seriously taking a beating here

Jesus gave all worship to the father, if indeed the word worship regarding Jesus means actually , I will not go into semantics, I will simply say that this is at the command of GOD his father - Hebrew 1:6

ijawkid:

All you have done is dance around...my bro...please can you open an example in the scriptures where the expression beginning of when used for a living being means source??....

Please use scriptures when making examples and stop bringing in greek myths.....

I know what arche means.........

What we are on is Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation..........

Ok let me for mumus sake follow your exegesis and say Jesus is the source of Gods creation....

How can you be the source of another persons work??.....it didn't occur to you that Jesus isn't the God of which he is beginning of his(God) creation......

All I need is a scripture from the bible that supports your stance....

Please just one...

Open a scripture where it says one who is the beginning of someone elses work becomes the source of that persons work there by exempting the person under consideration as part of the handi work of the one he is the beginning of........??...

Please I have my scriptures steaming..open your own and stop this dance around........

And john 1:1 and john 1:14 isn't a problem at all to a unitarian like me.....

Just open scriptures and refute Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation exempts him from being created by God.......

And what are you quoting hebrews 7:3 for??......

You want me to expose that scripture too??....

lol you took all the example I gave you and flush it down the drain... that beginning some translate as source... I gave you a clear example but I know you...

Hebrews 7:3
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

it shows you he is from the ancient of time... the everlasting eternal... link it with Genesis 1:1 and link in with john 1:1 then link it with Colossians then link it with revelation 3:14 then you will see the meaning of what I explained earlier

benalvino:

lol you took all the example I gave you and flush it down the drain... that beginning some translate as source... I gave you a clear example but I know you...

Hebrews 7:3
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

it shows you he is from the ancient of time... the everlasting eternal... link it with Genesis 1:1 and link in with john 1:1 then link it with Colossians then link it with revelation 3:14 then you will see the meaning of what I explained earlier

Please I want us to do an indepth analysis of what it means to be the beginning of somebodys works........

I didn't flush your definition of arche down the drain.....I agree...what you have failed to do is just provide an example from the scriptures to show what it means the beginning of somebodys works..be it creative works,pro-creative works etc.....

Please open one scripture......

You are being disingenuous.....

Can we have parallels of that expression from the scriptures and get the meaning of it??......

And as regards hebrews 7:3....do you agree that melchizedek also has no beginning and end just like Jesus and so we have a 4th person who had no beginning??......

You don't just quote scriptures to prove Jesus had no beginning...it would land you in wahala......

Did melchizedek have a beginiing or not??......

I would be up with scritpure to scripture meaning of what it means to be the beginning of someone elses business or works.........

Na inside this bible we go die today.......

@belnavino

No need to take us back

may i say that you evade the question you posed which im interested in answering, if you are sure of yourself what stops you from supplying the answer in brief.

God Almighty as the superior to innitiates the move to exault the son to receive worship on his behalf but for his(God's) own glory.

phillipians 2:9-10

Why God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That[b] at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth[/b]

verse 11;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Mr anony:
interesting. We both know that David was not worshiped. Bowing to pay homage and worshiping are not the same thing it is funny how you managed to scout for the only translation that translated that as worship and then pitched your tent there.
If I show you 1john 5:7 from KJV now, you will immediately deny that translation and start scouting other translations to make your claim.

Let us see what some of the translations you dodged had to say.

Then David said to the whole assembly, "Praise the LORD your God." So they all praised the LORD, the God of their fathers; they bowed down, prostrating themselves before the LORD and the king. NIV

Then David said to the whole assembly, "Give praise to the LORD your God!" And the entire assembly praised the LORD, the God of their ancestors, and they bowed low and knelt before the LORD and the king. NLT

and my favorite:

And David said to all the congregation, Now bless Jehovah your God! And all the congregation blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed and worshiped Jehovah, and bowed to the king. MKJV


You have no case.

If you like I can also show you throughout the bible people paying homage, bowing and kneeling and falling flat on their faces before their fathers, uncles, brothers, friends, kings, angels e.t.c. Not all bowing is worship.

But how does your example compare with this:

Rev_5:13 And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever.

or this:

Rev_7:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

Or even better, This:

Rev 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones.

My dear, your argument is seriously taking a beating here

Oh anony says not all bowing down is worship...now you have come......

So it means the word worship is coined from could mean many things....and that infact people can be worshipped and as shown Yahweh and his king was worshipped...

Now you say the case is different from that of Jesus......

Jesus is the greater david and in no way shows the God which annointed them both has changed and that when people worship them then it makes the annointed one Gods equal.....

I just used davids example to expose you that you have no point whatso ever to equate Jesus with his Father...

Now may I ask you...

Was Jesus exalted and annointed or not??....

David was annointed by Yahweh.....was Jesus not annointed??....

Now this is where the problem comes.......

Who do you think made Jesus the king of kings ??......

If Jesus was not exalted would he be even close to being a king more or else sit on Yahwehs throne??.....

Answer me.......

The Yahweh who does the appointing and commands people to adore and bow down before his annointed kings has not changed...get that into your brain......


The whole world bowing before the lamb and his God does not in anyway show the lamb has become equal with God...

And the funny thing is that this God the Father is the GOD of the lamb...

So try again mr anony........

frosbel: Jesus gave all worship to the father, if indeed the word worship regarding Jesus means actually , I will not go into semantics, I will simply say that this is at the command of GOD his father - Hebrew 1:6

Anony eye don clear...so him wan begin define worship because right in front of his eyes the isrealites worshipped david and Yahweh......

ijawkid:

Please I want us to do an indepth analysis of what it means to be the beginning of somebodys works........

I didn't flush your definition of arche down the drain.....I agree...what you have failed to do is just provide an example from the scriptures to show what it means the beginning of somebodys works..be it creative works,pro-creative works etc.....

Please open one scripture......

You are being disingenuous.....

Can we have parallels of that expression from the scriptures and get the meaning of it??......

And as regards hebrews 7:3....do you agree that melchizedek also has no beginning and end just like Jesus and so we have a 4th person who had no beginning??......

You don't just quote scriptures to prove Jesus had no beginning...it would land you in wahala......

Did melchizedek have a beginiing or not??......

I would be up with scritpure to scripture meaning of what it means to be the beginning of someone elses business or works.........

Na inside this bible we go die today.......

the key word is arche can you see... arche translate to many things... some bible say source some say ruler some say beginning... arche means all those things so why should we look at the meaning of beginning instead of arche?
when you use source it Goes with other verses... you just they pretend like say you no understand wetin I they talk abi?
ok... I take Hebrew back...

ijawkid:

Anony eye don clear...so him wan begin define worship because right in front of his eyes the isrealites worshipped david and Yahweh......

how him eye take care... na you try to say worship mean another thing just because they worship Jesus... and you try to accept worshipping of man as normal in God's eye just to prove your point... david was not worshipped... you always deny Jesus accept worship but now you are backing david up that he accept worship talk about double standard

how him eye take care... na you try to say worship mean another thing just because they worship Jesus... and you try to accept worshipping of man as normal in God's eye just to prove your point... david was not worshipped... you always deny Jesus accept worship but now you are backing david up that he accept worship talk about double standard

a parrallel has been striked between 'the worship David receives' and 'that of jesus' all to the glory of God the father!

remember too that Davids house is 'like God' note the letter uppercase 'G' i dont mean god, with letter 'g'

see that below even in your own bible;


New International Version (©2011)
On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD going before them.
New Living Translation (©2007)
On that day the LORD will defend the people of Jerusalem; the weakest among them will be as mighty as King David! And the royal descendants will be like God, like the angel of the LORD who goes before them!

English Standard Version (©2001)
On that day the LORD will protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of the LORD, going before them.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
On that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that on that day the one who is weakest among them will be like David on that day, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD, before them.

International Standard Version (©2012)
At that time, the LORD will defend those who live in Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them at that time will be like David. The entire house of David will be like God—indeed, like the angel of the LORD in their midst!

NET Bible (©2006)
On that day the LORD himself will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the weakest among them will be like mighty David, and the dynasty of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
On that day the LORD will defend those who live in Jerusalem so that even those who stumble will be like David, and David's family will be like God, like the Messenger of the LORD ahead of them.

King James
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

benalvino:

the key word is arche can you see... arche translate to many things... some bible say source some say ruler some say beginning... arche means all those things so why should we look at the meaning of beginning instead of arche?
when you use source it Goes with other verses... you just they pretend like say you no understand wetin I they talk abi?
ok... I take Hebrew back...

Hehehehehe.........which other verses na...

Oya make we look this straight forward from bible......

Genesis 49:3

King James Bible (Cambridge
Ed.)
Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my
might, and the beginning of my
strength, the excellency of
dignity, and the excellency of
power:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
(©2009)
Reuben, you are my firstborn, my
strength and the firstfruits of my
virility, excelling in prominence,
excelling in power.

International Standard Version
(©2012)
"Reuben, you're my firstborn, my
strength, and the first fruit of my
vitality. You excel in rank and
excel in power.



Please let's consider this case....

Remember the arche is used in this verse....firstborn was used..but let's even leave firsborn alone for now...you escaped when it was explained the last time we discussed on it.....

Can you please tell me what it means when Jacob says reuben is the arche of his virility?? Or the arche of his strenght??....

Is reuben the source of Jacobs other kids or reuben himself is part of Jacobs kids but the first or start of Jacobs pro-creation spree??

This is scripture...let's analyze...

More is on the way....

BERNIMOORE: @belnavino



may i say that you evade the question you posed which im interested in answering, if you are sure of yourself what stops you from supplying the answer in brief.

God Almighty as the superior to innitiates the move to exault the son to receive worship on his behalf but for his(God's) own glory.

phillipians 2:9-10

Why God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That[b] at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth[/b]

verse 11;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

we've gone pass here... we talked about Jesus being exalted at the right hand of God... which mean he has all the power and authority... if you read Colossians you will learn that Jesus created all thrones power and authority both in heaven and earth for himself
"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
you remember when the father says he is the beginning? so is Jesus verse 18
he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. he dead so that he can conquer death...

we have gone pass here... it is coming to a point where any question one ask is already discussed

benalvino:

we've gone pass here... we talked about Jesus being exalted at the right hand of God... which mean he has all the power and authority... if you read Colossians you will learn that Jesus created all thrones power and authority both in heaven and earth for himself
"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
you remember when the father says he is the beginning? so is Jesus verse 18
he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. he dead so that he can conquer death...

we have gone pass here... it is coming to a point where any question one ask is already discussed

Still confused......

I hope you don see say the whole earth bowing down to the Lamb and God does not mean Jesus is an equal with God.....

You don see am shey??.......

If God no exalt Jesus we would not be having this discussion....God no commit crime to exalt him son all for trinitarians to demean the Father and making his son equal to him.....

Its madness bro........